Spiritual Gifts

[Brother Love]

How many of you who have written above do speak in tongues, and do not speak in tongues?
.
.

I DO NOT SPEAK WITH TONGUES:)

Thank You Jesus

Brother Love

[Tamara]

Hi Phil!

I have the gift of a Prayer Language.

Love...Tamara.

[4JC]

Hi Phil, I don't speak in tongues.

Hi Tamara, I'll repay your kindness with kindness and (try) to keep it short.lol

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The Lord's unchanging character and unswerving commitment to His covenant promise with the patriarchs. This sounds like the (Hebrews 13: debate. Although God Himself is unchanging, as (Malichi 3:6) and (Hebrews 13: both say, He does not necessarily manifest His power or reveal Himself in the same way in every age.
 

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

God's will (His word), would restrict some of the things you could ask for. Otherwise we wouldn't need hospitals anymore, Just ask for the true gift of healing.

1 Cor. 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Good night, God bless
love 4JC

[Jabez]

I do not speak in tongues.As a matter of fact iam not sure what my gift is.Though ive been praying that it would be revealed to me,iam starting to feel what it is,but iam not certain.I know this, iam nothing without him!

[Tamara]

There are other gifts as well Jabez.  
If we are truly yielded, and submitted to Our Father in Heaven and ask Him to take FULL control of ourlives, He will never leave us.  He will purge us of the dross and contamination of fleshly things.  Then He places His commandments  in our hearts.  We then have the Fruits of the Spirit.  Then, whatever gifts the Holy Spirit chooses.  But, before anything can be done by our Father...we must show our courtesy and respect by telling Him we desire these things above all else in life.  That we want to be fully yeilded and to be a channel of His peace.  That we want to put Him before everything else in life.  And, we must mean it with all our hearts.  They can't just be words...we must be sincere.
Then, Father will begin to mould us just as a potter moulds clay.
We are then ready to receive the Fruits, and the Gifts.  This is through the Faith we have in Jesus, the Son of the Living God.

Love...Tamara.

[Brother Love]

The ONLY Gift I have is Eternal Life

Thank You Jesus

Brother Love

[Hunibuni]

What is the difference between Speaking in tongues and Praying in the Spirit?

[Petro]

According to the Apostle Paul, there is no difference between  speaking in tongues and praying in the spirit, one can undestand this from these two verses, Paul has written herein;

1 Cor 14
14  For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15  What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16  Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

The word unknown[/b] in the KJV was added as a help word, not found in the original text.

Verse 2,makes it clear that even the person speaking in tongues, doesn not understand, what he is saying, since according to this verse, "he speaketh mysteries."and according to verse 14, it is unfruitful to his understanding; and, this point is emphacised by Paul since he states at these 2 verses, that his own understanding is unfruitful, this inspite that at  1Cor 13:1 That he speaqks with "tongues of men and of angels,"


And verse 13 of 1 Cor 14, in the light of verses 27 and 28, is given to understand that unless interpreted, what is being spoken in tongues is not understood by those who hear the manifestation of the gift of Tongues, and for this reason if there is no one to interpret the speaker should remain silent, since it edifies no one, but himself (somehow or other).

All the gifts are given that the body of Christ might be edified and blessed, and they are to be used for this purpose, only..


God Bless,

Petro

[Petro]

My question is,

How is it, those who possess the gift of tongues, understand what they say, when the scriptures are clear unless they possess the gift of interpretation, they cannot understand what they are saying, since they speak mysteries in the Spirit??

And almost without execption those who, say they possess the gift of interpretation, always claim to be speaking to man, instead of God, through the interpretation of prophecy.

In short, they turn what is interpretation of a prayer to God, into a message from God, to men.

In my twenty odd years of being a child of God, I have yet to come across one who, speaks in tongues, and prophecies, and will honestly state, that he is interpreting a prayer to God.

If it were not for my understanding of verse 1 Cor 13:10 in the lite of scripture, I would have to agree, tongues have ceased.

Blessings,

Petro

Petro

[4JC]

Hi Petro

Whats your take on "the Perfect"? And how does it effect your position on tongues? I had a longer post, but lost it. Some of the questions your asking and comments you made in your last post sounds like me three years ago. dejavu all over again.LOL

God bless
4JC

[Petro]

Hi Petro

Whats your take on "the Perfect"? And how does it effect your position on tongues? I had a longer post, but lost it. Some of the questions your asking and comments you made in your last post sounds like me three years ago. dejavu all over again.LOL

God bless
4JC

4JC,

You pose an interesting question, and what is even more interesting, is that I have been working on this very question form the last year or so, even thinking and studying on it, in these last few days.

Allow me to post the passage which sheds some light to the context, of "that which is perfect"

I am not totally convinced, that this is speaking of the written Word of God, it appears that this is the main point taken by those who feel, tongues  and prohecy have ceased.

But knowing that Gods Word, when it speaks to those who have ears to hear, addresses the truth in all the dynamics and dimensions of the point being addressed,

If I it can be said  this way.....

1 Cor 13
8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I never have accepted the teaching on this matter by this side that teaches it refers to the completion of the written scriptures, I simply have over the years accepted this verse at face value, and although it has been a preplexing verse for me, It never sounded odd, in the context I have always understood it, and what drives the context of the verse in question for me, is the following two verses.

Now the setting for the understanding of the verse, is in the context of charity (love) being the greastest attribute (Faith, Hope, Charity)  of those who possess Gods Spirit, since it most nearly associated with Gods own character or nature.

Paul in the verses which follow, speaks in the first person, saying;

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Imediately I understand the previous verse, as connected to this one as that of needing  maturity to understand it.

And verse 12, even reinforces, the thought that somehow this "perfect which is to come" has to do with an individual   personal understanding, since it is clear, Paul understands something that is personal to him;

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part;but then shall I know even as also I am known."

I see the excersizing of the gift of tongues as, at the most a man praying to God ;

1 cor 14
2  For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
4  He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

And this ability to pray in the spirit, is a sign to unbelievers;

22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

There is more to this, but simply put, and to save pages of writing;

If this is true, (that speaking in tongues is praying to God), this will not cease until, Jesus returns to the earth, at that point we will see, him face to face, and will know [him] even as also I am known.

Now it is obvious to me that for Paul, this came with his death, and his going to be with the Lord, but for those who remain on the earth at His return, it will occur when He returns, since they will be the ones that look for Him.

There are also, two aspects of prohecy which is one the other things which will fail.

Prophecy on one hand is defined a speaking concerning future events in the name of God, while another deifinition is giving forth the word of God.

Consider the following;  When and if you give forth the gosple when speaking to someone you do both, you are giving forth the word of God, and you are prohecying their future judgement and of eternity in heaven or hell.

The question I have is;  As long as the Gospel is being preached on this earth, men are prophecying the Word of God.

The next point is that of knowledge, when has that ceased??,

It is clear God the Holy Spirit, is still bringing people to the knowledge of the truth of His Word, and giving undertsanding to know the nature and character of God, to those have neither.

But what I find more compelling is that WE Christians, are being made perfect,

I am not speaking of our position in Christ, since the Word assures us, that we are perfect in Him, but he is one, and we are many, and He out of two is making one, bring each in unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man;  Note,


Heb 4
13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Our faith is growing and according to the scriptures is perfected by love;

Gal 5
6  For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


1 Jhn 2:1-29
4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

These verses, are tied to the Love chapter of 1 Cor 13, and Love is called the greatest of the attributes of Faith, Hope at Love, by love we are made perfect and it is the single untiing factor that bonds the people of God, by FAITH.

1 Jhn 4
11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13  Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19  We love him, because he first loved us.

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


Blessings,

Petro

[4JC]

Petro,
 I too had difficulties with the "Perfect" being the completed scripture. Although in the beginning of my faith, I always just assumed this was my lack of understanding. I thought the blanks would be filled in as I progressed in my study and understanding. Little did I know.....

I tried to look at all sides of this as honestly, asking the tough questions as you are, putting commentaries against one another from people of different Theories concerning this matter, just to see what would shake out. there always seemed to be contradictions left unanswered, or at least I felt that some passages were stretched to the point of me being uncomfortable with how they were defined.

You and I see "eye to eye" on prophecy and knowledge. I trust you have read my earlier post, so you know where I'm at on this issue. I'm going to repost some of it with some minor changes and additions for clarification.

==============================================
        Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?
              (At one time I believed this to be true)

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.
Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.(Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17).

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3)

E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12).

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again)

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test, which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming.

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect" and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the tribulation, and the kingdom. It fits the context of Paul's emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing "face to face", which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, again, only in heaven will we "Know fully just as [we] also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12).

==============================================

I know I opened up a can of worms with this because this removes one of the obstacles for tongues being in use today (in their minds). Only one of them though. I guess what I mean is, it would be easy just to say that scripture is complete, and that's it. But we're obligated to teach/preach/say the truth, even if we have to write a sermon to explain it. I believe that the proof is there without the definition of the perfect, that tongues do not exist today. What worries me is that most people never take the time to look, they want quick and easy answers, and that's it.


I have a different take on the scripture you gave in reference to tongues. Consider the second and third passages when defining the first ones
(Note that Pauls whole point of chapter 14 is to make sure men are edified.)


1 cor. 14
2 For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal

===============
14:4 He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

13:5    (Love)
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

So I think your right on track to be asking the questions about tongues that you are. What do you think about the "perfect" being the eternal heavenly state of believers?

God bless
4JC

P.S. Did you ever think of these verses (below) in light of the bar mitzvah? In this, the boy becomes a man over night, or in a instant, I guess you could say.

13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Edit#2 lol What I mean is that the mind set of a Jew in terms of a boy becoming a man might not have been a gradual process but something that happens quickly. If this is so, then open the possibilities in defining vs.12. Think in terms of (son of the law).

[Petro]

Petro,
I too had difficulties with the "Perfect" being the completed scripture. Although in the beginning of my faith, I always just assumed this was my lack of understanding. I thought the blanks would be filled in as I progressed in my study and understanding. Little did I know.....

I tried to look at all sides of this as honestly, asking the tough questions as you are, putting commentaries against one another from people of different Theories concerning this matter, just to see what would shake out. there always seemed to be contradictions left unanswered, or at least I felt that some passages were stretched to the point of me being uncomfortable with how they were defined.

You and I see "eye to eye" on prophecy and knowledge. I trust you have read my earlier post, so you know where I'm at on this issue. I'm going to repost some of it with some minor changes and additions for clarification.

==============================================
Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?
(At one time I believed this to be true)

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.
Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.(Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17).

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3)

E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12).

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again)

4JC,

Very good, I agree with everything you have posted, and I am amazed, that pratically everything you have written, made me feel as though I am answering my own post, I could not have articulated these poionts better than you have presented them.

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test, which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming.

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.

I concur, but I have been known to overlook the finer points, so I am sure there may be  something that that has been overlooked.

And actually I have narrowed this done to these two possibilities,  that the perfect is;

Both the glorified state, and the perfected body of Christ, of which all the members of the church are.

Remember, that I said, Gods Word trancsends all dimensions and solves the dynamics at work when his word, is cast forth.

The individual member of the Body of Christ, actually is representative of the entire Body of Christ, and just as in the natural body there are many members, which grow together, the passage that needs to be looked at carefully is;

1 Cor 12
11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14  For the body is not one member, but many.
15  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17  If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19  And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30  Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31  But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

In these there is a trememdous amount of information which needs to be dissected.

I have not done it totally, and although, when considering this in the light of just the church of christ, there are difficulties, but as you said;

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect" and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the tribulation, and the kingdom.

True, and;

The gender neuter form of  that which is "perfect", in the context Body of Christ idea,  will pass the test, when looked at very carefully.

The verses that really set this off for me, which really got me to thinking was;

1 Cor 12
28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

I asked myself, for what purpose, where these set in the church?  I thought of verse 25 above imediately.....

Heb 11...........Speaking of the men who are mentioned in the Hall of Faith of the Bible..

40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There is that word again, and it sheds much to the discussion.

I am pressed for time, and will get back to this as soon as possible........................in the mean time keep looking up..  

Petro

[Petro]

It fits the context of Paul's emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing "face to face", which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, again, only in heaven will we "Know fully just as [we] also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12).



==============================================

Yes, and at this point, it points specifically to the Body of believers, since in the light of verse 40 of Heb 11,   it makes it clear as a bell, that;
 they without us should not be made perfect.

I know I opened up a can of worms with this because this removes one of the obstacles for tongues being in use today.

But it is not a can of worms for those who stand firmly on the Word of God.
Actually it is a comfort to me, that I know and understand that this is a gift, given by the Holy Spirit, I do not possess this gift, and do not discount it being a gift still in effect today, and from what I understand of it, and its use it is for the purpose of edifying and building up the Body.
And as long as it is excersized within the confines of scripture, especially the command of the Lord, then I would not speak aghainst it, the problem I have is that I have yet to find a place where this gift is being excersized in accordance with Holy Writ.
It has been so abused that, it actually is looked upon as a schism, within the Body of Believers today.
And it is sad, that there are incontinent people who consider themselves to be chidren of God, and yet, are so misinformed and ignorantly choose to usurp the word in a way that ignores the sound teaching of scripture that speaks to these gift  which iof used properly can and will edify.

Only one of them though. I guess what I mean is, it would be easy just to say that scripture is complete, and that's it. But we're obligated to teach/preach/say the truth, even if we have to write a sermon to explain it. I believe that the proof is there without the definition of the perfect, that tongues do not exist today. What worries me is that most people never take the time to look, they want quick and easy answers, and that's it.

My same thoughts, and concerns, it appears as thou a thought has been forced upon the teaching of  something that has not been well thought threw.

I have a different take on the scripture you gave in reference to tongues. Consider the second and third passages when defining the first ones
(Note that Pauls whole point of chapter 14 is to make sure men are edified.)


1 cor. 14
2 For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal
14:4 He that speaketh in an tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

===============

Well, what is clear, whether at home, or in the congregation, the man that speaks in tongues does not speak to men, but to God, this point is very clear, whats missing here in this verse is something that is assumed;by pro-tonguers, and that is that the man speaking in tongues will always speak loud enough to be heard by the congregation.
For instance, the man that is subjected to the Holy Spirit an possess this gift, would (or should ) adhere to the Lords command and keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.  (1 Cor 14:28), so you see, one can speak to God, and be silent about it, this is why I call it, PRAYING..
So verse 2, is not meant to encourage one to simply stand up and start speaking at will, which seems to be the way it is excersized today..


Cont'd...........

13:5 (Love)
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

So I think your right on track to be asking the questions about tongues that you are. What do you think about the "perfect" being the eternal heavenly state of believers?

God bless
4JC

God Bless you..

P.S. Did you ever think of these verses (below) in light of the bar mitzvah? In this, the boy becomes a man over night, or in a instant, I guess you could say.

13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Edit#2 lol What I mean is that the mind set of a Jew in terms of a boy becoming a man might not have been a gradual process but something that happens quickly. If this is so, then open the possibilities in defining vs.12. Think in terms of (son of the law).

I cannot comment on this since I know next to nothing about Jewish rites, and observances, it seems to me that some of these celebrations are not scriptural, I may be wrong, what you have raised sound plausible to me.

Blessings,

Petro

[4JC]

Petro,

I don't have a lot of time. I was busy writing another post on another topic. I guess it takes me longer than most to write these things. I went over your post quickly and you bring up some interesting points. If there were only 100 hrs in a day I might find enough time to do this lol. I don't have my own computer, so I can only use this one at certain times. The part that you first quoted from me was borrowed, condensed, and paraphrased, so I can't take credit for it. My writing skills leave a lot to be desired, so I do that sometimes if Im in "perfect" agreement, for the sake of it being shorter and being more effective, or to the point. Man! look at the time. I'll be bock.

God bless
4Jc