The Doctrine of Pastor Teacher......

[Shammu]

Some are born with the GIFT of Pastor teacher, yes.....but none are born with KNOWING systematic theology from the originals,...... that must be taught.

Nope you need to try again.  Being a Pastor doesn't mean having to be a theologian.  You have to go to college to learn that linssue. 
Being a theologian is someone who is learned in theology, or who speculates (<--magic word there) about theology.   Sorry I tell it like it is, straight from the Bible.

[Soldier4Christ]

Some of the best teachers of the Gospel that ever lived were simple uneducated men. These simple men could barely read or write, in fact it is thought that some of them could not read or write at all.

The 12 Apostles were not the only uneducated teachers that the Lord has used and very effectively as teachers of His word. There have been many that have followed in their footsteps.

[linssue55]

Mar 13:11  But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.



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This is the tribulational Jewish believers that reach Super Grace statis during the trial and tribulation (this verse does not apply to church age).  There are no pastor teachers in the T and T, pastor teachers are exclusively for the church age only. EVERYbody (all believers) in ALL dispensations MUST be filled with the spirit to learn, apply and live in fellowship, this is not a doctrine (the filling) that is exclusive to Pastors only. The holy spirit TRANSFERS doctrine into epi-gnosis, but some even under the filling may choose NOT to believe the truth (free will- God the Holy Spirit does not interfere in our free will)  of what the holy spirit is trying to give them, for free will chooses NOT to transfer the doctrine as Truth to epi-gnosis, therefore it remains just gnosis, and is never used in their lives or/until, out of free will and have a change of their mind, choose to transfer it to the right lobe, where epi-gnosis is stored and used, the works of the righteous.

 
Mark 13:

{Brief Resume on the Tribulation}
9-^~
"But, you yourself
must 'watch out'/'be on your guard' for yourselves.
For you will be 'betrayed over'/'handed over' {paradidomi}
to the Sanhedrin {Jewish courts of the Tribulation}
and you {Jewish believers in the Tribulation}
will be flogged in the synagogues.
You will stand before governors and kings . . . 'for My sake',
as a testimony/witness to them.

10^~
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations
  {grace before judgment - evangelism first then God's judgment to
  unbelievers}.

11^~
But, when they arrest you and hand you over for trial,
do not 'be anxious'/worry about what to speak/teach {laleo}.
But communicate whatever is given you at that time/hour,
for it is not you speaking/teaching,
but the Holy Spirit {hagios pneuma}.
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Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


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John 14:26

{God the Holy Spirit will Teach in the Church Age}
26~~ But the Encourager/Paraclete {parakletos} . . .
the Holy Spirit {pneuma},
Whom the Father will send in My Name,
will teach {didasko} you all things {the Truth - Bible doctrine},
and will cause you to remember
everything I said {lego} to you."

{Note: Parakletos: 'para' means along side. Kletos means to call or communicate. So to communicate along side is a helper. Jesus was 'para' in verse 25. When He leaves, the Father will send a new 'para' along side us to help - to bring comfort, blessing, objectivity, orientation to Grace, differentiation of false teaching from the Truth on and on.}

{Note: Didasko means public teaching. Therefore, you learn (congregation) from the teaching of a prepared pastor-teacher, and it is the ministry of God the Holy Spirit to make the Truth in the teaching clear to you (epi-gnosis). What you accept (maybe you will, maybe you won't)  as Truth, is stored in your memory center for future use. When it is needed, your paraclete causes you to remember the doctrine that you need to apply to the situation.}
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One pastor many elders:

1Ti 5:17  Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
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1 Tim 5:

{Royal Family Authority - verses 17-25}
17~~ Those pastor-guardians {one for each church}
who have ruled well with the result that they keep ruling honorably -
they must be considered worthy of DOUBLE HONOR {diplous time}
most of all, those who work hard {to the point of exhaustion - study, teach, study, teach}
in the sphere of the word/doctrine {logos} and
teaching {didaskalia}.

{Note: 'Diplous time' does mean double honor. It refers to giving the pastor teacher REMUNERATION and RESPECT. See the next verse to clarify this. The first obligation of the church is to pay its pastor WELL! And, then, he can be released to study and teach and study and teach! And, also, being a pastor is an honorable occupation worthy of respect - if fulfilled correctly.}

{Note: 'Logos' means doctrine on the written page. Didaskalia means doctrine in the soul - after you learn it!}-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This verse shows that there are to be more than one elder that rules and not all of them necessarily to preach.

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It show's one pastor teacher for one church, and through study and teach, study and teach, those are the one's that deserve our honor (for not all pastors study and teach, so therefore those do not deserve our honor).

Not all of the Apostles were considered elders and yet they all were also teachers. A degree may make a good theologian but does not necessarily make a good teacher or preacher. The Holy Spirit does.
 

All of our pastors today do not have the gift of Apostleship, this stopped in 70 AD..  God gives men gift's other than the gift of pastor teacher.  Some are evangelist's, ie: Billy Graham, he fits the catagorie of Preacher, NOT teacher, he was outstanding in what he did, but would never make a good pastor TEACHER.  Different spiritual gift's from the Lord to certain men, for different occupations in the ministry. The Holy Spirit is our enabler to the filling of the spirit, but like I said before, He never interfere's with our free will to choose, it is not the fault of the holy spirit if men choose not to believe in the truth. and not transfer this truth to epi-gnosisi doctrine.

[linssue55]

1.  And that makes them a theologian not just a pastor.

2. However a pastor does not have to be a theologian.

1.  They are synonomous, or they should be.

            2.  If you choose to believe that, that is none of my business.   

[Soldier4Christ]

A person may be en epignosei of God in more ways than studying the scriptures in their original language. Yes, I agree that studying the scripture is a great way but there is much more to it than just that. There are many theologians that are not and never have been a pastor/teacher and some of them should not be because God is not in them.

They are synonomous, or they should be.

In your opinion perhaps but not according to scripture. 

[linssue55]

A person may be en epignosei of God in more ways than studying the scriptures in their original language.


Sorry, but I just don't see how with all the evidence of the 'doctrine of pastor teacher', and many other doctrines I have learned through the years about PT's.  I do agree that some can certainly learn enough to grow sufficentialy in grace, but the pastor teacher Must know the most and beyond, so he can lead his congregation to super grace and surpassing grace.  In their souls they can grow no more than the pastors limit to teach.  You would think they would WANT to know the most, just out of the love (the word is the mind of Christ) for the languages spoken at the times of writing.



Yes, I agree that studying the scripture is a great way but there is much more to it than just that.


 
Of course the pastor must have virtue love for his congregation, he must be willing to study and teach to exhaustion, he must have a cup runeth over for the love of God, this is just some of the many part's of the gift the Lord bestow's on the chosen PT's.  but foremost he MUST know the originals, so that the exact meaning of THAT word is given to the empty souls sitting before him. There is much needed to be the kind of PT that the Lord wants them to be on this earth, this much is mentioned in the doctrine of pastor teacher.



There are many theologians that are not and never have been a pastor/teacher and some of them should not be because God is not in them.



This goes without saying, the TV is full of them,....... not to speak of the so called WOMEN PT, now that is pure evil arrogance when women are told to be silent in church.



In your opinion perhaps but not according to scripture. 

Yes it "IS" there, ........this is just my point, if the originals where known along with systematic theology, and the history of dispensationalism it becomes quite clear, and it leaves no doubt whatsoever. Like I heard once in a movie about satan where he said,......... "Free will,...... it's a b----"!    

It was great talking to you-------Grace and Peace to you.........

[Satisfied MInd]

I do disagree with some churches use of the term "pastor" in reference to their preacher.

There are 3 verses in the NT that include the word "pastor"(in various forms).  These are
Ephesians 4:11 ASV
(11)  And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Acts 20:28 ASV
(28)  Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.
1 Peter 5:1-2 ASV
(1)  The elders among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
(2)  Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

IN Ephesians 4, Paul is discussing the various roles that Christ placed in the church.  "Pastors and teachers" are to serve in the church.  This identifies a single group. Pastors, or shephards, as they care for the flock, are also to teach.

In Acts 20, Paul refers here to pastors. This time he uses the verb form of the word. It is translated "to feed" in the ASV or "to care for" in the ESV. Pastors feed, tend and protect the church.  Whatever a shepherd would do for his flock, likewise the pastors are to do for the church.  The church here is referred to as a "flock"

In 1 Peter 5, Paul encourages them to "tend the flock of God..."   The word "tend" is again the Greek poimaino that means to "act as a shepherd"

Paul refers to those who are to "take heed...to all the flock"  in Acts 20, as "bishops" or "overseers".  Peter in 1 Pet 5, tells those to "act like shepherds" as they "oversee the flock of God". The term hereused for these is "elders". These 2(bishop and elder) are also used interchangebly in Titus 1:5-6.

These 3 terms elder, bishop, pastor, are used to refer to the same service in the church.  They describe a man who is older and an experienced Christian(elder), a decision maker, manager of church affairs and leader(bishop)  and one who watches over the spiritual needs of the flock(pastor).

When we look at other scriptures we know that bishops/pastors/elders, must meet scriptural qualifications. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9)  They serve in a plurality over a congregation.

If we consider these scriptures carefully we can note that all pastors are ministers or servants. But not all ministers are pastors. 
There are examples of preachers being pastors/elders. Peter was a preacher and an elder.  (1 Pet. 5:1)  Paul likewise noted that there may be elders who "labor in the word and in teaching" (1 Tim 5:17)  But there are cases where preachers serve in congregations in conjunction with pastors/elders such as Timothy and Titus. 

I believe the NT shows that there are to be a plurality of elders/pastors serving over a single, autonomous congregation.

[linssue55]

From Satisfied mind..........I believe the NT shows that there are to be a plurality of elders/pastors serving over a single, autonomous congregation.
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I do not!  There are too many verses to reply to them all, here are a few.


{Communicative Types of Spiritual Gifts Initially Given by Jesus}
11~~And He gave some . . . apostles
  {temporary gift - highest authority} . . .
and some/others . . . prophets
  {temporary communication gift},
and some/others . . . evangelists
  {permanent communication gift},
and some/others . . . 'pastors and teachers'
  {ONE permanent communication gift}.

{Note: See also Acts 19:11; 2 Timothy 4:20. Temporary gifts ended by 96 AD. After initial appointments by Jesus Christ, the selection of other spiritual gifts came from the sovereign ministry of the Holy Spirit per I Corinthians 12:11. }

{Note: 'Poimen' -is the word correctly translated pastor. It also means shepherd. A pastor is the shepherd of his flock/congregation. 'Didaskalos' is the word for teacher, but it means to teach one to MANY and in a monologue fashion - not dialog.}



Acts 20:

{Note: the elders were the pastors of the various churches in Ephesus.}

18~~And when they were come face to face with him, he said unto them, "You remember, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons."

{Note: The pastors came TO Paul. Paul is reminding them of his ministry in Ephesus.}

19~~"Serving the Lord with all humility of mind {orientation to grace and the Plan of God}, and with many tears, and pressures, which accompanies me by the lying in wait of the Jews."

{Note: Paul is under great danger and pressures from RELIGION - the legalistic Jews.}

20~~"And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have showed you, and I have also categorically taught you over and over again publicly, and from house to house."

{Note: 'Kept back nothing' is a nautical idiom in the Greek - by captains orders the sails are taken down to slow down the ship - with the negative, means Paul taught and taught these pastor-teachers all he could - in categories of doctrines. In Ephesus, the churches met in private homes hence RBT teaches that the plural 'elders' is the pastor-teacher (singular) in each of the many houses - hence 'elders' (means the one in authority). As far as doctrine to be taught, only the one with the gift of pastor-teacher can make that decision. There are other men and women with spiritual gifts like the gift of administration that handle the money and operations of the church.}]



25~~ "And now, behold, I know that you all . . . among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God . . . shall see my face no more."

{Note: Paul is stating he will see these pastor-teachers no more. Paul does return to Ephesus, but whether or not he sees any of these men again in time is not documented.}

26~~"Because of this {because he has trained them} I testify this day {on the record}, that I keep on being {absolute status quo} pure from the blood of all {idiom here for 'failures of others'}."

{Note: This is an idiom. Paul is saying he has done his responsibility to these pastor-teachers, he has taught them all the doctrine he could. So 'pure' means he met his obligation to them. His responsibility was to study and teach. What they do with the doctrine - application - is up to them! It is not 'on his head' we might say today.}

27~~"For I have not held back {to shun his responsibilities} in repeating and communicating again and again unto you all the designs {decrees} of God."

{Note: Pattern of teaching is presented here. Teach the doctrines, then teach them again and again, until they not only have HEARD the doctrine, but the CAN NOT FORGET IT!}

{Warning to the Pastor-teachers about their great responsibility to their flock}
28~~"Beware, and always beware, with regard to yourselves,
and to all the flock which the Holy Spirit Himself has appointed you overseers . . . to keep on feeding the church which belongs to
God . . . which He has purchased with His own blood.

{Note: In the Greek there are a few words for 'feed'. Here is 'poimaino' which means to feed with authority. With sheep it is ruling with the shepherd's staff - so is with authority!"

{False teacher warning}
29~~"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves {came to mean bullies} shall infiltrate among you, not sparing the flock.

{Note: Continuing the analogy of a shepherd watching over its flock, when Paul leaves, Ephesus will not have an apostle watching over the churches until Timothy comes. False teachers will be coming to lead the flock astray from True Bible Doctrine.}

{Apostate teacher warning}
30~~"Also from your own selves shall men arise, speaking distorted things, to seduce away disciples after them {to listen to their ideas instead of going 'after bible doctrine'}."

{Note: Now Paul is saying that not only will people outside this group of his students that are now Pastor-teachers be leading the flock astray, but ALSO some of these people will lead the flock to follow their 'personalities' / programs instead of keeping their eyes on the Lord and True Bible doctrine. Seduce is the key word. It indicates people will leave Bible doctrinal teaching based on emotional responses - human good, pleasing personality of the pastor, etc. instead of concentrating on the quality of the content that the teacher teaches.}

31~~" Therefore constantly be alert with regards to yourself, and remember {bible doctrine metabolized in your soul}, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

{Note: The Greek word used here for alert is not the one for ' alert from outside forces like in a sentry on duty'. This time "Gregoreuo' is used which is to watch your self and what you do. This says to be alert to what you are teaching. Stay with ICE teaching - word by word, sentence by sentence, precept on precept, category on category of doctrines.}

{Note: Noutheteo is a compound Greek word - to place and in the mind. So to 'Warn' is to place in your mind something to use as a reference. Paul gave them bible doctrine as their reference.}

(Cont)

[linssue55]

I Peter

Chapter 5
{Message to Pastors then Congregations follow}
1~~ To the elders {pastor/teachers of the various churches}
among you,
I encourage you as a fellow elder
and a judicial witness
of the sufferings of Christ
  {Peter was an actual witness to the crucifixion},
and also a partner in the glory that is about to be revealed:

{Note: Peter knows the disaster about to befall on these people - many of whom will die in the next year. These verses tell the Pastor-teachers what to do in times of adversity.}

2~~Feed the flock of God among you . . .
not under compulsion,
but voluntarily according to the grace of God . . .
not from gains, but from enthusiasm.

3~~ Not so much as being bullies
over the allotment {pastor's right share of God's sheep},
but become a 'soul mold' {an example} to the flock.

4~~ And when the chief Shepherd {the Lord Jesus}
shall appear {rapture},
you shall receive the Crown of Unfading Glory.

{Note: This is the special wreath reward for pastors who bring their congregations along to spiritual maturity.}

{Verses 5-11: The Functions of the Congregation}
5~~ Likewise, in a similar manner, you congregation,
become subordinate to the authority
of your Pastor-elders
  {one per local Church, in Greek this is shown as a plural}.
And, all of you dress {conduct} yourselves
with humility toward one another,
and YOU MUST!!!
Because God makes war on the arrogant believer,
but He gives Grace to the humble believer.

6-7~~ Having caste all your care on Him {Christ},
it keeps on being a care to Him {His responsibility},
you allow yourselves therefore to be humbled
under the mighty hand of God
that He might promote you {move up in your spiritual life}.

{Note: If God does not promote you, you are not promoted!}

8~~ Attain spiritual self esteem . . .
be on the alert . . .
your enemy - the devil -
prowls around like a roaring lion,
walks about,
looking for someone to devour.

{Note: The devil will gobble up carnal believers - without Bible doctrine metabolized in their soul}.

9~~ Whom resist
- steadfast in The Faith {'what is believed' - doctrine} -
knowing that the same undeserved sufferings
are endured in your brethren
- to your advantage -
that are in the cosmos/world
  {here the 'Roman World' is about to face great persecution}.

10~~ But The God of all grace
  {God the Father - author of the Plan in eternity past},
Who has called us {election}
unto His eternal glory {phase III}
in Christ Jesus . . .
{believers} after having suffered a little while
  {after suffering, you must do the following 4 things}:
mend your broken net
  {fisherman's idiom - suffering tests the strength of our nets,
  grace mends the nets of our lives},
be mentally stable,
depart strength,
and establish an unwavering foundation in you.

{Note: Grace makes you spiritually self-sustaining.}

11~~To Him {dative of dignity},
the RULING POWER
from the ages to the ages {forever and ever}.
'I BELIEVE IT'/Amen!

{Postscript - like a signature - in Peter's own handwriting here}
12~~ Through Silvanus, the faithful brother unto you . . .
I know I have written a few words . . .
encouraging . . .
and carrying a solemn witness . . .
that this keeps on being the true grace from God . . .
in which . . . STAND FAST!

13~~Those in Babylon {Peter is in Babylon here - Rome} . . .
elected together with you . . .
salute you . . .
and so does Marcus my son/student {John Mark}.

{Note: In case this letter was intercepted, they would NOT easily know where Peter was writing from so the new 'Babylon' was used.}

{SideNote: Just as Silvanus penned the words to most of this epistle for Peter, we may now assume that John Mark may have penned the Gospel of Mark under the guidance of Peter who actually experienced with Jesus what is described in 'Mark'. }

14~~Greet you one another of the same kind
with a kiss of agape love.
Peace {results of agape love - inner happiness}
belongs to you
- to your advantage -
and to all that are in Christ Jesus.
'I BELIEVE IT!'/Amen.



Titus 1:

5~~ Because of this grace,
I left you flat in Crete(!)
that you should set in order
the things that are deficient {which is a lot!}, and
ordain elders {synonym for pastors}
according to the standard of every city, as I had appointed you . . .

{Note: Titus is to train Pastors in each city in Crete according to Paul's plan they had earlier agreed to - now Titus was to carry out the plan}.

{Qualities to look for in the Pastor Teacher- verses 6- 9}
6~~if any one keeps on being:
irreproachable,
a one-woman man,
having children who are believers . . .
not in the sphere of accusation of riot, or
unruly {not a hell raiser, rebellious}.

7~~ For it is necessary for a bishop to be irreproachable - as God's administrative manager:
not self-willed {literally means not to allow stubbornness to make the
  pastor unfair -grace orientation},
not prone to easily anger {relaxed mental attitude},
not prone to drunkenness,
not a brawler {not a fist-fighter},
not eager for dishonorable profit.

{Note: 'Biship' means an 'administrative overseer with authority'. This is another title for the pastor-teacher with an emphasis on his administrative responsibilities.}

8~~ But:
a lover of divine good,
a lover of good men,
sober {absent of mental attitude sins},
fair and equitable,
holy {capacity for love, occupation with Christ},
temperate {self-control - mastery of the details of life}.

[Shammu]

Now that you have blown my eyes out with that large font, linssue55. I have taken my migrain meds, and can answer you.

If God is the head, then God is the teacher. There isn't a place in the Bible where it says that, man is to be head of the body. 

If we are supposed to imitate Jesus, did Jesus submit to a pastor? No. He submitted to God himself. If we are to be like Christ, we need to be doing nothing but loving each other. But no, we are to teach one another. In our behavior and in our devotion to God, we are to be like Jesus Christ, in as many ways as we can.  Where in the Bible did it say that a pastor is to be submitted to or demand submission? Where did it say that you must go to college to become a pastor? Or does the Bible speak of a pastor at all? Pastor is Latin for shepherd. If you look at it this way, we all are supposed to be shepherding each other. Every man is his brother's keeper. We need to love each other and depend on the Spirit to teach us, trust in Jesus, and obey God just as Jesus did. We are the bride of Christ.

The Apostles did not have a seminary degree, but they did have a thorough knowledge of Jesus Christ, of His teachings, and of the ways of God. In fact, their early childhood training by Jewish teachers and parents might exceed the level of theological educations.  God does not put a premium on ignorance nor upon failure to be adequately trained. The two greatest leaders in divinely-inspired Scriptures Moses and Paul, were both supremely well-educated men. The fact is: God uses all kinds of people.

I believe as preachers and teachers we should be equiped but that can be done in a number of ways. I have known quite a few teachers of the Word who were never formally trained that had an amazing grasp of the scriptures.  Your way shows the whole issue really. It shows a distrust in the power of the Holy Spirit to cut through the desires of the flesh, ways of man, etc.  Sometimes you must wonder if some have the eyes to see and ears to hear what the word of God has within it to guide us through these troubling times.

Many theologians are fatally missing the "mark of the high calling of God" because they rely solely on man-made processes to spiritually educate them.  When God laid His hand on those throughout the ages to proclaim Him to the world, He seemed to pick ones that were under human standards, the least likely. But, the common thread was their complete and utter devotion in Spirit and Truth to the Lord Jesus Christ. It was the inner working of the Holy Spirit in their lives that made them great in His eyes. They may not have had crusades of thousands, or congregations of ten thousands, but they preached Christ crucified, and those who heard were changed in their hearts forever.

Edited cause I missed posting part of my statement, till now.

[linssue55]

Now that you have blown my eyes out with that large font, linssue55. I have taken my migrain meds, and can answer you.
 
If God is the head, then God is the teacher. There isn't a place in the Bible where it says that, man is to be head of the body. 
 
If we are supposed to imitate Jesus, did Jesus submit to a pastor? No. He submitted to God himself. If we are to be like Christ, we need to be doing nothing but loving each other. Where in the Bible did it say that a pastor is to be submitted to or demand submission? Where did it say that you must go to college to become a pastor? Or does the Bible speak of a pastor at all? Pastor is Latin for shepherd. If you look at it this way, we all are supposed to be shepherding each other. Every man is his brother's keeper. We need to love each other and depend on the Spirit to teach us, trust in Jesus, and obey God just as Jesus did. We are the bride of Christ.
 
The Apostles did not have a seminary degree, but they did have a thorough knowledge of Jesus Christ, of His teachings, and of the ways of God. In fact, their early childhood training by Jewish teachers and parents might exceed the level of theological educations.  God does not put a premium on ignorance nor upon failure to be adequately trained. The two greatest leaders in divinely-inspired Scriptures Moses and Paul, were both supremely well-educated men. The fact is: God uses all kinds of people.
 
I believe as preachers and teachers we should be equiped but that can be done in a number of ways. I have known quite a few teachers of the Word who were never formally trained that had an amazing grasp of the scriptures.  Your way shows the whole issue really. It shows a distrust in the power of the Holy Spirit to cut through the desires of the flesh, ways of man, etc.  Sometimes you must wonder if some have the eyes to see and ears to hear what the word of God has within it to guide us through these troubling times.
 
Many theologians are fatally missing the "mark of the high calling of God" because they rely solely on man-made processes to spiritually educate them.  When God laid His hand on those throughout the ages to proclaim Him to the world, He seemed to pick ones that were under human standards, the least likely. But, the common thread was their complete and utter devotion in Spirit and Truth to the Lord Jesus Christ. It was the inner working of the Holy Spirit in their lives that made them great in His eyes. They may not have had crusades of thousands, or congregations of ten thousands, but they preached Christ crucified, and those who heard were changed in their hearts forever.

 
 
I am legally blind and have a hard time reading small script, I never went over 12pt........

 
If God is the head, then God is the teacher. There isn't a place in the Bible where it says that, man is to be head of the body.

 
No I did not say that, I said the pastor teacher is the head (in authority) over his congregation of his one church.  God is his (pastor) direct authority to study and teach.
 
 

If we are supposed to imitate Jesus, did Jesus submit to a pastor? No. He submitted to God himself. If we are to be like Christ, we need to be doing nothing but loving each other.

 
 
God has more attributes then only love, so therefore we are to have some of those same attributes (plural). This is almost too silly to answer it is so basic..........The ONLY way we can possibly imitate the Lord is with the filling of the spirit.....Jesus submit?...silly, "does a perfect God submit to sinners?"   The remaining I just can't answer, beyond silly and argumentative, for I know you wouldn't be interested in the truth anyway, for "The Doctrine of Pastor Teacher" tells what you are asking but not interested it what it had to say apparently.  You cannot say that systematically theology doesn't work nor correct/original languages, because you have nothing to compare it to other then what you have taught yourself to believe. "Never judge others (in this case judge the theology) until you have walked in their steps (learnt it), then you have the foundation to judge the right from the wrong (scripturally). "

 
People are afraid of what they don't understand, through knowledge comes understanding.  I quess if we were to live by your standards we should close all the schools down (including the childrens) for men are just to inadequate to teach let along understand what is being taught (for we are all fleshly).  If you believe this then we should all throw our bibles out, for wasn't it written by men of the flesh?  Through the filling of the spirit, the flesh becomes null and void. The bible has much to say about PT's, but you will believe in what you will, this issue is therefore between you and the Lord, for I will not debate the word of God, for nothing is served.   


Acts 4:13~~Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned {no formal academic training} and ignorant men {no official office to teach doctrine}, they marveled. And they took knowledge from them that had habitually been with Jesus (speaking with the Lord, and learning from HIM the the word accurately (from the Aramain in the ancient language)).


Yet God chose apostle Paul to write 2/3’s of the New Testament. He used a man of high intellect and education.
 
Acts 22:1~~"Men, brethren {Jews . . .members of the same race}, and fathers {term of respect . . . means Jewish religious leaders were present}, HEAR MY DEFENSE . . . NOW {command} which I make face to face unto you!"


2-3~~And when they heard that he kept on speaking in the Hebrew dialect to them to their advantage, they kept on having, from the immediate source of themselves, silence {only a few were still talking and they shut up}. And he said,


3~~ "I am in the absolute status quo of truly a man . . . a Jew {his race}, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city {Jerusalem} to be trained again and again and again, at the feet of Gamaliel {one of the greatest and most objective Pharisees of the day} and received inculcation/training/education according to the accurate manner of the law {clear presentation of its content} of the fathers, and was zealous {positive volition at the point of God consciousness} toward God, as you all keep on being this day.

{Note: When Paul talked to them in the Hebrew dialect, it identified him as a man of some standing and they stopped to listen to his words . . . for a little while anyway! In the ancient world, speakers introduced themselves and this is Paul's introduction.}

[Shammu]

I am legally blind and have a hard time reading small script, I never went over 12pt.

Sorry about that then, I'll pray for you on this matter.  My eyes trying to adjust to the different font sizes causes migrains.

Just to make it easier for you, I enlarged the font.

edited to add;  I work off of open office, and paste and cut, my posts alot of times.  Some times I miss a part of this, when I break it into paragraphs.

Part of my post is missing

If we are to be like Christ, we need to be doing nothing but loving each other. (Should say here the following) But no, we are to teach one another. In our behavior and in our devotion to God, we are to be like Jesus Christ, in as many ways as we can

[Soldier4Christ]

God has more attributes then only love, so therefore we are to have some of those same attributes (plural). This is almost too silly to answer it is so basic..........The ONLY way we can possibly imitate the Lord is with the filling of the spirit.....Jesus submit?...silly, "does a perfect God submit to sinners?"   The remaining I just can't answer, beyond silly and argumentative, for I know you wouldn't be interested in the truth anyway, for "The Doctrine of Pastor Teacher" tells what you are asking but not interested it what it had to say apparently.  You cannot say that systematically theology doesn't work nor correct/original languages, because you have nothing to compare it to other then what you have taught yourself to believe. "Never judge others (in this case judge the theology) until you have walked in their steps (learnt it), then you have the foundation to judge the right from the wrong (scripturally).

 
People are afraid of what they don't understand, through knowledge comes understanding.  I quess if we were to live by your standards we should close all the schools down (including the childrens) for men are just to inadequate to teach let along understand what is being taught (for we are all fleshly).  If you believe this then we should all throw our bibles out, for wasn't it written by men of the flesh?  Through the filling of the spirit, the flesh becomes null and void. The bible has much to say about PT's, but you will believe in what you will, this issue is therefore between you and the Lord, for I will not debate the word of God, for nothing is served. "

linssue,

No one here is trying to turn this into a debate. This is a Bible Study and we are trying to get across the point of what the Bible has to say on this subject. You said above "People are afraid of what they don't understand, through knowledge comes understanding." The point that we are trying to make here is where does this knowledge and understanding come from? It is not just from listening to a pastor/teacher, it is not just from studying the Bible in the original language. While those are good methods to learn and much can be learned in that manner, this method by itself is mans way of learning. Not everyone knows Greek and Hebrew nor do they have the ability to learn it. Not everyone knows English nor have the ability to learn it. God still provides a way for them to learn of Him and to draw closer to him in knowledge and understanding even without a pastor/teacher ( as you have described one to be ).

I have met many pastor/teachers and those that are just teachers that have a far better understanding of God's word without knowledge of the original language than many of those Theologians that have an excellant grasp of Hebrew and Greek. I personally know of a young man of 10 years of age that could put many a Pastor or Theologian to shame in his knowledge of God's word. He has never had any such training yet he can explain to you in words not normally used by a 10 yr old and does so quite accurately.

I again ask the question that gets to our main point ....  Where does this knowledge and understanding come from?

Pro 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7  Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

1Co 12:5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[linssue55]

Sorry about that then, I'll pray for you on this matter.  My eyes trying to adjust to the different font sizes causes migrains.

Just to make it easier for you, I enlarged the font.

edited to add;  I work off of open office, and paste and cut, my posts alot of times.  Some times I miss a part of this, when I break it into paragraphs.

Part of my post is missing

If we are to be like Christ, we need to be doing nothing but loving each other. (Should say here the following) But no, we are to teach one another. In our behavior and in our devotion to God, we are to be like Jesus Christ, in as many ways as we can

Yes I get migrains too, they are terrible.  gotcha16 really helps mine. I love all people with agape love, regardless of what they may believe or be like, for who am I but a terrible sinner.  One thing we all have in common (christians) we love the Lord and praise Him in our own way.

Grace and peace to you.....

[linssue55]

linssue,

No one here is trying to turn this into a debate. This is a Bible Study and we are trying to get across the point of what the Bible has to say on this subject. You said above "People are afraid of what they don't understand, through knowledge comes understanding." The point that we are trying to make here is where does this knowledge and understanding come from? It is not just from listening to a pastor/teacher, it is not just from studying the Bible in the original language. While those are good methods to learn and much can be learned in that manner, this method by itself is mans way of learning. Not everyone knows Greek and Hebrew nor do they have the ability to learn it. Not everyone knows English nor have the ability to learn it. God still provides a way for them to learn of Him and to draw closer to him in knowledge and understanding even without a pastor/teacher ( as you have described one to be ).

I have met many pastor/teachers and those that are just teachers that have a far better understanding of God's word without knowledge of the original language than many of those Theologians that have an excellant grasp of Hebrew and Greek. I personally know of a young man of 10 years of age that could put many a Pastor or Theologian to shame in his knowledge of God's word. He has never had any such training yet he can explain to you in words not normally used by a 10 yr old and does so quite accurately.

I again ask the question that gets to our main point ....  Where does this knowledge and understanding come from?

Pro 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Pro 3:7  Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

1Co 12:5  And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8  For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9  To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10  To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Yes I do understand what you are saying, what I am trying to say is I do not, nor will ever believe what you guys believe regarding pastor teachers, I know what the bible say's all about them.  I have seen both sides of the coin, and I know which side is real and true.  There is a reason for acedemic training and teachings, until you have listened to what I have listened to you cannot say, for the proof is in the writings, the proof is in the teachings.  I ran across this very same subject matter with christians for years, and I just say to myself "They do not understand!"   That is where I leave it.  It is up to every christian to decide for themselves.  I know someone that went to seminary for 3 years, and to this day he still say's, "What I have learned form just one tape (ICE) is more than what I have learned in the 3 years in seminary."  They did not teach ICE.  This was 20 years ago for this person, and we are both still under the same ministry.  I knew this 70 year old man that started on the tapes, he has always been a christian, and he said, "I have found the truth, the real truth after all of these years and now I walk around in utter happiness like I never have before.  I had no idea what I had been missing." I have dozens of these.  It is impossible for people to understand what  I have been trying to say, they are stuck in their old ways, as tradition may have it. 

They are comfortable in their own way, without exploring the way God meant for all christians to comprehend His words.  For I know and millions of others (that follow this teaching) know, that this IS exactly the way the Lord meant for ALL of His children to know the word, and it is all because of our pastor teachers years and years of acedemic learning that have brought us to this conclusion.  This is the ONLY way, just like faith, it is something you know deep inside our soul but are unable to express it. Nothing will ever change my mind

Grace and Peace to you......