The Doctrine of Pastor Teacher......

[linssue55]

Very well Sister,
Grace and peace to you as well! (and yes, I do mean that sincerely)
-Am-

Thank you and I know you do, and ditto back at you.   

Grace and Peace.....

[Soldier4Christ]

I have noticed with this site too that I also should have mentioned, that I do not recieve all the notifications when someone posts, so forgive me then, for that was one I did not recieve.

Grace and peace.....

Sounds like a problem that we haven't been told about yet. We'll have to look into that.

[linssue55]

With this linssue, you are judging others.  Have you ever read any of my Bible studies?? I will almost lay odds, you haven't.


[/quote]

We are not to judge other's maliciously with sin in our souls, which I have not done, but we are commanded to discern. From some the comments here, when ya all talked to each other, there were negative remarks made about my post, and that is fine, but it did happen.  People have that right, that is a God given right, that is a part of our so precious freedom.  My freedom to post it and your freedom do not agree. 

So you see I felt I was getting nowhere and I never want it to be said that I push my doctrines onto anyone.  We are to give the doctrine, then the holy spirit in that person (when filled) takes the doctrine and hopefully puts it in the soul as epignosis, it is not our jobs as a Christian family to cause to make each other believe.  Do you understand what I am saying?  This is the holy spirit's job, not our's.  I LOVE talking about the Lord and sharing, I love it.  Maybe the wordings here just need to more explanatory when we are going back and forth with verses?!

Yes I have read some of your post's in bible study, and I thought they were pretty sound.  This is the dispensation for pastor teachers.  They are God's gift to us and I for one honor that gift.


1 Cor.2:15
"The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment."

To discern good from evil.

Heb 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil."



Here are some comments made, this is why I just decided to give up...............
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I'm sorry I disagree, some are born natural Pastors. Without any schooling from colleges, who teach the Bible, not the doctrine of man.

This verse shows that there are to be more than one elder that rules and not all of them necessarily to preach. Not all of the Apostles were considered elders and yet they all were also teachers. A degree may make a good theologian but does not necessarily make a good teacher or preacher. The Holy Spirit does.

AMEN brother, AMEN!!

Nope you need to try again.  Being a Pastor doesn't mean having to be a theologian.  You have to go to college to learn that linssue. 
Being a theologian is someone who is learned in theology, or who speculates (<--magic word there) about theology.   Sorry I tell it like it is, straight from the Bible.

In your opinion perhaps but not according to scripture.

I have met many pastor/teachers and those that are just teachers that have a far better understanding of God's word without knowledge of the original language than many of those Theologians that have an excellent grasp of Hebrew and Greek. I personally know of a young man of 10 years of age that could put many a Pastor or Theologian to shame in his knowledge of God's word. He has never had any such training yet he can explain to you in words not normally used by a 10 yr old and does so quite accurately.

 Yes, I question that also since I am currently going through this material. I am definitely not afraid of it although I am now seriously starting to question the teachings that go with it.
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No positives here.  I listen to the Lord when He commands me, His child, to step aside.  These verses are NOT meant to be taken personally, so please don't, but the messages are profound for all of us to heed.   When God orders me to do something I had better do it, for I don't like it when I get spanked, and deservedly so.

Titus 3:

9~~ But avoid:
stupid controversial things {social reforms contrary to the Bible}, and genealogies {doctrines neutralized by human viewpoint}, and contentions {liberalistic ideas}, and
strivings and
contentions relating to the law . . .
for they are useless {to the Christian life} and vain.

10~~ A man that is a heretic {harbors factions because he harbors
  false views} . . .
after the first and second admonition . . .
REJECT!

{Note: This is the principal in dealing with people in false doctrine. Give the correct doctrine to them. Give it to them a second time. If they continue to reject sound doctrine, separate yourself from their false doctrine  {when you reject Bible doctrine you
  condemn yourself.}}

2 Tim 2:

23~~ But be excusing yourself
from {avoid} foolish and undisciplined/'ignorant controversies'
  knowing they give birth to useless battles.

24-26~~ NOW, the slave of the Lord {pastor- teacher}
must not be contentious/belligerent,
but he must keep on having gracious objectivity
face to face with all {the entire congregation},
skillful/able in teaching,
persistent in spite of evil,

25~~
in grace orientation {praiotes} . . .
{when necessary} exercising disciplinary action {paideuo}
toward those who are in opposition {to doctrinal teaching}
so that perhaps The God may give them a change of mind
for the purpose of achieving
epignosis {full knowledge} knowledge of The Truth/Doctrine

26~~
and that they may 'sober up'/'come to their senses'
{and out of reversionism}
and be delivered of the devil's trap {reversionism and evil . . . means being in the Cosmic System} . . .
having been held captive {zogreo} by him {under Satan's authority} with reference to his plan.



{Note: Praiotes means to be oriented to grace. It is often translated meekness or to be humble. But this really means to be oriented to the Plan of God - Grace. False meekness is a disguise for pride. True meekness is grace orientation. Freedom from Pride!}

{Note: Paideuo is the type of discipline that you would apply to your own small child. It means to instruct under enforced, then genuine humility. And, the word is in the iterative present tense meaning you do not do this always, but only when the congregation needs it. For example, if the sin of the tongue affects others in the congregation, the pastor must chastise the speaker of evil and remove them from the congregation if they do not change.}


Please do not take it that for even one moment I was upset with anyone here, not at all.  I thouroughly enjoy this site and all the people, we are all family in Christ, and hopefully we can learn from each other in agape love.   So if I stepped on any toes please forgive me.   


"The word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder, the soul and the spirit, the joints of the marrow, and is the thought and critic and intense of the heart. All scripture is God breathed, and is profitable, for doctrine, for re-proof, for correction for instructions in righteousness, that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamded, rightly dividing the word of truth."

[nChrist]

I have noticed with this site too that I also should have mentioned, that I do not recieve all the notifications when someone posts, so forgive me then, for that was one I did not recieve.

Grace and peace.....

Hello Linssue55,

Sister, I think that I can help you some with this problem. The system sends out email notifications on threads that you are involved in. You must click on the thread in the email notification to keep getting them. The forum software keeps track of whether that notification is used or not. It isn't sufficient to simply go to an active area you are involved in without clicking and using the email notification. I hope this helps some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 3:20-21 NASB  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;  who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

[linssue55]

Hello Linssue55,

Sister, I think that I can help you some with this problem. The system sends out email notifications on threads that you are involved in. You must click on the thread in the email notification to keep getting them. The forum software keeps track of whether that notification is used or not. It isn't sufficient to simply go to an active area you are involved in without clicking and using the email notification. I hope this helps some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 3:20-21 NASB  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;  who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Thank you Tom, I will do that.   

Grace and Peace........

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I've been gone and I've just read this thread in an attempt to understand some of the controversy. I do want to make a couple of comments, and they can be taken for what they are worth, maybe nothing.

It appears to boil down to a discussion of what a pastor or teacher MUST do to be considered a pastor or teacher. I will try to simply state the controversy as "1" and "2".

1. One must receive a formal education in a university and obtain degrees in numerous areas before they can be a pastor or teacher. This would include becoming fluent in ancient languages, as that is the only way to properly study the Holy Bible.

2. God calls who HE Will to become a pastor or teacher, and God leads that person to become equipped for HIS purpose. It might or might not involve universities and formal education. The pastor or teacher will be prepared to offer milk or meat that is appropriate for the level of the audience, and the pastor or teacher will continually pray for guidance to do God's Will and purpose.

I'll simply state that God decides, and the fruit of the ministry will indicate whether or not that pastor or teacher has followed the leading of the Holy Spirit in what God wanted them to do. The purpose is God's, not our own.

1 Corinthians 2:1 NASB  And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1 Corinthians 2:2 NASB  For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1 Corinthians 2:3 NASB  I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
1 Corinthians 2:4 NASB  and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1 Corinthians 2:5 NASB  so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:6 NASB  Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
1 Corinthians 2:7 NASB  but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1 Corinthians 2:8 NASB  the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
1 Corinthians 2:9 NASB  but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
1 Corinthians 2:10 NASB  For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11 NASB  For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:12 NASB  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1 Corinthians 2:13 NASB  which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB  But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1 Corinthians 2:15 NASB  But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1 Corinthians 2:16 NASB  For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

The Apostle Paul was a scholar, but he spoke plainly and I think this chapter speaks volumes about this controversy. There is no human side - just God's Side. So, I'll simply say there is great value in anyone called by God to be a pastor or teacher, and God will decide how he wants them to be equipped. The fruits of the ministry and glory given to God will be the measure God looks at.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 139:13-14 NASB  For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.  I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen!

[linssue55]

Brothers and Sisters,

I've been gone and I've just read this thread in an attempt to understand some of the controversy. I do want to make a couple of comments, and they can be taken for what they are worth, maybe nothing.

It appears to boil down to a discussion of what a pastor or teacher MUST do to be considered a pastor or teacher. I will try to simply state the controversy as "1" and "2".

1. One must receive a formal education in a university and obtain degrees in numerous areas before they can be a pastor or teacher. This would include becoming fluent in ancient languages, as that is the only way to properly study the Holy Bible.

2. God calls who HE Will to become a pastor or teacher, and God leads that person to become equipped for HIS purpose. It might or might not involve universities and formal education. The pastor or teacher will be prepared to offer milk or meat that is appropriate for the level of the audience, and the pastor or teacher will continually pray for guidance to do God's Will and purpose.

I'll simply state that God decides, and the fruit of the ministry will indicate whether or not that pastor or teacher has followed the leading of the Holy Spirit in what God wanted them to do. The purpose is God's, not our own.

1 Corinthians 2:1 NASB  And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1 Corinthians 2:2 NASB  For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1 Corinthians 2:3 NASB  I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
1 Corinthians 2:4 NASB  and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1 Corinthians 2:5 NASB  so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:6 NASB  Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
1 Corinthians 2:7 NASB  but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1 Corinthians 2:8 NASB  the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
1 Corinthians 2:9 NASB  but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
1 Corinthians 2:10 NASB  For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11 NASB  For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:12 NASB  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1 Corinthians 2:13 NASB  which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB  But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1 Corinthians 2:15 NASB  But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1 Corinthians 2:16 NASB  For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

The Apostle Paul was a scholar, but he spoke plainly and I think this chapter speaks volumes about this controversy. There is no human side - just God's Side. So, I'll simply say there is great value in anyone called by God to be a pastor or teacher, and God will decide how he wants them to be equipped. The fruits of the ministry and glory given to God will be the measure God looks at.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 139:13-14 NASB  For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.  I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.

The Doctrine of Pastor Teacher.......The unity of the church comes from all in the body of Christ thinking the same , the way God wants us to think, this is true unity.  The gift of a prepared pastor teacher makes it known from the accurate teaching of the word of God when filled with the spirit. This unity can only be accomplished through the KNOWLEDGE of the word, of the true understanding of the acccurate words.  So as the spirit leads you.......


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[nChrist]

The Doctrine of Pastor Teacher.......The unity of the church comes from all in the body of Christ thinking the same , the way God wants us to think, this is true unity.  The gift of a prepared pastor teacher makes it known from the accurate teaching of the word of God when filled with the spirit. This unity can only be accomplished through the KNOWLEDGE of the word, of the true understanding of the acccurate words.  So as the spirit leads you.......


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Hello linssue55,

You missed a piece of information that effects everyone, including you. You are stating your opinion and that's all you are doing. So, the unity you are talking about has nothing to do with agreement with you, rather with agreement with the Holy Bible.

You are trying to judge, label, and condemn others with your opinions. The Holy Bible does not state the requirements you list for pastor and teacher here, so that is not Bible doctrine - simply man's opinion. Trying to state man's opinion as Bible doctrine is not a wise thing to do. Example: stating or hinting that a seminary degree and being fluent in ancient languages is required to be a pastor or teacher is FALSE. The Bible DOES NOT SAY THIS, so where do you think it might have come from?

I'm certainly not saying that I have anything against education. However, I will state with absolute certainty that education does not make a pastor or a teacher. In fact, some of the teachers aren't even saved. Further, you make so many EXCLUSIVE remarks about your study methods that proper pastors and teachers need to graduate from your school. So, I'm beginning to wonder if you are out trying to recruit students. That won't happen here.

There are many people on the forum with various types and lengths of education, and many are already serving as pastors and teachers in God's Will and purpose. Pleasant discussions about various study methods are welcome here. BUT, exclusionary threads that judge and condemn Christians solely about the level of their FORMAL education is not welcome. I hope this is clear, as you have already been given a formal warning.

We don't promote specific Churches and schools here. Further, advertising is not permitted here. It would be good for you to read the forum rules. I agree with some of the things that you post, but I completely disagree with some of what you post about "ICE". BUT, That's fine because we don't promote schools or Churches here, and that would include "ICE".

I must be very specific about one "ICE" doctrine you have posted about Christian fellowship. I could care less about how "ICE" might judge or condemn Christian fellowship. One of the primary purposes of this forum is Christian family fellowship, and that purpose will continue regardless of what "ICE" teaches. We just might ALL HAVE methods already that are as good as or better than "ICE". SO, please give us all a break on "ICE" - "ICE" is not the Holy Bible, nor is it the best or only way to study the Holy Bible.

We love to talk about the Holy Bible and JESUS, and "ICE" isn't either one. You've already done overkill on "ICE". Look around on the forum and you will see an absence of NAMED PROMOTIONS on the forum. So, here's a hint - there's a reason for that. I hope that the warning and this more elaborate explanation is sufficient for you to understand.

Moderator

[doc]

Go gettum BEP.

This chilly approach to Christ and His body is clearly addressed in scriptrue:

"As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.  Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."   Colossians 2:6-10 NKJV


I repeat - "pastor" is not an office or title in Ephesians 4 - it, along with the other gifts are simply ordinary God given Christian characteristics for "the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ... !

Any attempt by a hierarchy oriented philosophy to develop a structure within God's "church" is a tradition of men - see above. This movement has practically destroyed the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit for the last 200 years.

doc

[ProphetBob]

Proverbs 10:19