Is God's treatment of Abraham fair?

[Athanael]

Why did God "test" Abraham by asking him to kill Isaac? How could he demand such a sacrifice from anyone?

I've heard the argument that since God sacrificed Jesus, he had the right to ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. But there are 2 problems with that argument:

1. While God knew Jesus would rejoin him in Heaven, Abraham did not know if he would ever see Isaac again--because there was no real concept of an afterlife at that time (correct me if I'm wrong). Hence, God's sacrifice was much less painful than Abraham's.

2. Jesus was given a choice, whereas Isaac was not.

[Allinall]

Abraham's life up to that point had been marked by a lesser faith.  That is, he believed God's promises, but leaned on his understanding of how those promises would pan out.  It wasn't until he gained a better understanding of God's sovereignty that Abraham began to live a life of greater faith.  How so?  Consider these less faithful responses:

1.  God called Abraham to the Promised Land - Abraham only went part of the way there.

2.  God called him to stay in the land - when famine came, Abraham left.

3.  God said He'd make a mighty nation out of his seed with Sarah - Abraham takes Sarah's handmaiden to wife and has a son with her.

It wasn't until Abraham's view of the sovereignty of God changed, that his faith grew.  I believe that was a lesson he learned when he nearly cost Abimelech and his nation their lives by his lack of faith in God's care for his well-being, and subsequent lie.  Interestingly, it is right after this that God tries Abraham with the sacrifice you brought up.  Some would say that it was a test of Abraham's love.  Who did he love more?  I disagree.  It was a test of Abraham's faith.  Heretofore he had given partial obedience.  Unique to our obedience is our faith.  You see, we obey what we believe.  Abraham believed, but put too much of his own thought into the process.  He "leaned on his own understanding."  When God told him to sacrifice Issaac, he didn't linger, or partially obey.  He simply did what God told him to do, and in so doing, passed the test.

[Athanael]

Good point--but why would anyone want to have faith in such a cruel god?

Christians, I believe, think that people's notions of good and evil come from God. But they, as well as atheists, would also say that certain actions are obviously wrong even when not viewed through a religious lens, because they are clearly detrimental to society. For instance, every reasonable person agrees, without reference to religion, that murder is wrong.

Now what happens if God asks us to do something we know is objectively wrong, like killing our children? Is it really acceptable to say, "Since God told me to do it, it's the right thing to do"? Wouldn't it be more morally courageous to question God's judgment and apply our own conscience to the problem? If God has the right to judge us, then we should have the right to judge him--particularly when he contradicts his own 10 Commandments.

[Petro]

Allinall 's reply #1
Abraham's life up to that point had been marked by a lesser faith. That is, he believed God's promises, but leaned on his understanding of how those promises would pan out. It wasn't until he gained a better understanding of God's sovereignty that Abraham began to live a life of greater faith. How so? Consider these less faithful responses:

1. God called Abraham to the Promised Land - Abraham only went part of the way there.

2. God called him to stay in the land - when famine came, Abraham left.

3. God said He'd make a mighty nation out of his seed with Sarah - Abraham takes Sarah's handmaiden to wife and has a son with her.

It wasn't until Abraham's view of the sovereignty of God changed, that his faith grew. I believe that was a lesson he learned when he nearly cost Abimelech and his nation their lives by his lack of faith in God's care for his well-being, and subsequent lie. Interestingly, it is right after this that God tries Abraham with the sacrifice you brought up. Some would say that it was a test of Abraham's love. Who did he love more? I disagree. It was a test of Abraham's faith. Heretofore he had given partial obedience. Unique to our obedience is our faith. You see, we obey what we believe. Abraham believed, but put too much of his own thought into the process. He "leaned on his own understanding." When God told him to sacrifice Issaac, he didn't linger, or partially obey. He simply did what God told him to do, and in so doing, passed the test.

Allinall,

Excellent points,

I am also reminded that the word tells us itself, that Abraham was tested of God, notice;
Heb 11
17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

It needs to be pointed out that Abraham, disobeyed God, you pointed this out, which is important in order to understand, where Abraham rested in his faith.

This is the reason for Abraham being tried of God , the result was that he (Abraham) was justified by his actions,

James in Chapter 2, says this concerning righteous Abraham;

21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In the vernacular, the word justified in verse 21, means vindictated.

God having already imputed righteousness to Abraham by his FAITH, vs 23. (Gen 15:6)

Athanael's response #2

Good point--but why would anyone want to have faith in such a cruel god?

Christians, I believe, think that people's notions of good and evil come from God. But they, as well as atheists, would also say that certain actions are obviously wrong even when not viewed through a religious lens, because they are clearly detrimental to society. For instance, every reasonable person agrees, without reference to religion, that murder is wrong.

Now what happens if God asks us to do something we know is objectively wrong, like killing our children? Is it really acceptable to say, "Since God told me to do it, it's the right thing to do"? Wouldn't it be more morally courageous to question God's judgment and apply our own conscience to the problem? If God has the right to judge us, then we should have the right to judge him--particularly when he contradicts his own 10 Commandments.

The word of God declares that "to obey is better than sacrifice,"  (1 Sam 15:22), "rebellion (disobedience) is as the sin of witchcraft," (1 Sam 15:23)
Disobedience is the sin which brought death into the world, and death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. (Rom 5:12)
But the scripture declare plainly that men are saved by being obedient to Gods Word.
Note:
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

As I stated above

"God having already imputed righteousness to Abraham by his FAITH, vs 23."

If you turn to Gen 15:1-6, we read the account where God spoke to Abraham, this was before he fathered Issac, the son through which the promise was to come, God declared him righteous and thirteen years later at the age of 99 years God appears to him again, and makes The  Covenant, sealed by the sign of circumscion (Ishmael his son was thirteen years old,Gen 17:25) and God changed the name of Abram to Abraham.

So, Abraham was not saved  by working nor by his actions at the mount where he went in obedience to God's Word to "offer up Isaac", but his work was the result of Him already being saved and having FAITH in God, this is why He was obedient, the scripture simply says;

HE BELIVED GOD, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Rom 4:1-8)

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6)

Faith produces OBEDIENCE, and obedience to Gods word, shows forth the faithfulness of those who live by faith as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Rom 1:17)

And the object of ones faith is the Word of God.

And those that have placed the free gift of FAITH given of God to them, UPON Jesus the Living Word, enter into Gods rest.

Note;
 
Heb 4
3  For we which have believed do enter into rest,


Blessings,


Petro

[Athanael]

All right--so Abraham is saved by faith. But the question remains, IS HE RIGHT TO FOLLOW GOD'S COMMAND, if God's command is inherently unethical?

We are taught to believe that we should be good people no matter what the consequences. I am arguing that we should be good EVEN IF IT MEANS GOING TO HELL. This may seem like a nonsensical statement, since God supposedly defines what is good, but, as I attempted to demonstrate above, there is an absolute good that exists outside of God.

I guess what I'm really asking is this--is it better to get "saved" by committing a sin, or go to hell for not committing one? I think the latter is more admirable.

[Heidi]

It's a harsh but simply reality that we can't be forgiven unless there is something to forgive, hence we can't have grace without sin. If it were a perfect world and there was no pain, not only would we feel entitled to happiness, but we wouldn't seek God or care about anything but our own satisfaction. That would breed arrogance and no desire to seek eternal life. We cannot receive love from God unless we ask for it. But who would ask for it in a perfect world? God allows pain in our lives in order to seek something far better than a perfect life on earth because when that's gone, we will have nothing. Pain is as necessary as grace.

[Petro]

All right--so Abraham is saved by faith. But the question remains, IS HE RIGHT TO FOLLOW GOD'S COMMAND, if God's command is inherently unethical?

We are taught to believe that we should be good people no matter what the consequences. I am arguing that we should be good EVEN IF IT MEANS GOING TO HELL. This may seem like a nonsensical statement, since God supposedly defines what is good, but, as I attempted to demonstrate above, there is an absolute good that exists outside of God.

I guess what I'm really asking is this--is it better to get "saved" by committing a sin, or go to hell for not committing one? I think the latter is more admirable.

Athanael,

From your vantage point, what you say makes sense to you, because you speak the same wisdom the world does,

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God (and the things of God) For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
 (1 Cor 3:19)


Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor 1:25)

The  god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the gosple of Christ should shine unto them (2 Cor 4:4)

Those that follow and obey this prinbce of the power of the air, rationalize, this matter as you have.

On the other hand those who follow and obey the God of the Creation,  obey, because they know that to obey is better than to sacrifice, as I pointed out to you, before.

And God has chosen that the foolish of this world,  will be saved by the foolishness of preaching, so here is your chance, consider your ways, and repent, that you might receive the promises of God.

Only an unwise person would reject a full pardon from His Creator.

Its not by chance you have heard these words on this forum at this time, God is serious, he calls sinners to repentance.

Won't you consider this offer??

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isa 1:18)

Blessings,
Petro

[Allinall]

Athanael,

While this may sound trite, there is a semantic to consider here.  While God is not bound by time, He does under certain circumstances operate within the bounds of time.  With that in mind, the very law you speak of had not been written at that time.  Nevertheless, God wasn't telling him to murder his son, but to offer him.  Hairsplitting?  Yes, but important to understand that at the heart of this command was the test Petro mentioned.  It wasn't a matter of whether it was considered right or wrong by Abraham, but whether he could explain it or not - would he obey God?  Would he have faith in God?  He clearly did, as was seen in his response to Isaac when asked where the lamb was.  "The Lord will provide..."  

Can anyone serve such a cruel God?  I'm sorry, but I can't see my heavenly Father as cruel.  I can see Him as sovereign, just, righteous, gracious, merciful, longsuffering, loving and a whole list of other things.  But cruel?  No.  God is working in the life of the believer to conform that life into the image of His Son.  That work is not always pleasant, but the end, for the believer, is far more than worth the means.  

[Allinall]

Petro,

Well taught brother!  

[PhilMun]

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2 Peter 1:20-21)

The Bible is the Word of God! The Word of God is infallible. For some, its sweeter than honey and honeycomb. For some, its light for their path. For some others its double edged sword piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart, and hammer that breaks a rock like heart, leading into repentance. A child of God when reads His Father's Word, must understand that its profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. Some people read Bible to find the mistakes of God and His Word. They do not have a humble heart. As water flows to the valley, God reveals Scriptural mysteries to a humble child/servant of God through His Holy Spirit. Please read the Bible with a heart to understand and obey! My humble request is to walk through the Bible when you read it.

There are several types of Bible studies and one of the important is, Dispensational Study. Now we are in the dispensation of Grace!

My God is a God of Covenant. We say in English language to "make" a covenant. But if you ask Jews, they will say to "cut" a covenant because they know that behind each covenant, there is a sacrifice; a death and shedding of blood. And in a Biblical covenant, both parties are equally bound.

Its amazing that Almighty God had such a very special relationship with a man named Abraham that he was later known as "a friend of God". God promised Abraham that he would have a son. Abraham might have thought, how its possible that he is too old and Sarah's womb is dead. But God did not want Abraham to doubt His Promise. So He told Abraham to look at the sands and believe that his progeny will be uncountable like the sands by the seashore. Then Abraham switched his vision, he started to see through his eye of faith, and started to see the each sand particle as his son, his grand sons, great grand sons/daughters, etc. When night came, God did not want Abraham to forget His Promise. So He assured him again that his descendants would be like the stars in the sky. And Abraham started to see again in faith. The Bible says, "the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God" (James 2:23, etc.) His descendants now are as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore!

Abraham cut a covenant with God (Gen. 17). And God wanted to test Abraham if his faith in God is strong and if he is abiding in his covenant with God. Testing is to find what is genuine and what is counterfeit. Abraham trusted in God's Promise and so, was ready to sacrifice Isaac (please read Heb. 11:17-19).

After 2000 years, God said to Abraham, your descendants need a sacrifice for their sins. And now its My turn to give My only Son, Jesus, as a sacrifice to all. . . the rest you know.

Our human brain can not comprehend God, but try to know Him through heart. People do not try it, hence some say "God is cruel"! But His love endures for ever and ever! Taste and see that my God is good!!! Is it God's mistake that He gave us free will? Could He not make us as robots? He could, but then there is no love! Where there is love only there is sacrifice!

I guess what I'm really asking is this--is it better to get "saved" by committing a sin, or go to hell for not committing one? I think the latter is more admirable.

Is there a single human being without sin? "Who can say, "I have made my heart clean; I am pure from my sin" (Prov. 20:9) "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." (Job 14:4). "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins" (Ecc. 7:20). Hell was made because of sin (for the devil and his angels). So, there is no point in going to hell "without sin". But it is admirable (worthy) to be saved from sin and hell! Friend, why not pray, "God, send me to hell for a weekend, let me see how it is."

Wouldn't it be more morally courageous to question God's judgment and apply our own conscience to the problem? If God has the right to judge us, then we should have the right to judge him--particularly when he contradicts his own 10 Commandments.

Man's life on this earth if compared to eternity is only a fraction of a second; like a bubble in water. Man's ignorance and rebellion against the Word of God makes him not fear God thus becomes himself a fool. And its said, fools rush in where angels dare! One of the main signs of the end-time is the lack of fear of God. It is because of man's ignorance to say that there are contradictions in the Bible. "The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deu. 29:29) Bible says, "Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool; what is the house which you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest? (Isaiah 66:1) Just imagine, you are sitting on a chair with your foot resting on a footstool. A small ant under that footstool if say, "I want to judge you", how will it be? Oh dear. . .!

By the way, are you a Child of God? If not yet, I recommend a site to you: www. His-amazing-love.org/sarah.html

Blessings in the Lord!