Apostolic succession

[Allinall]

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus, Allinall.

I disagree. You are equivocating the office of Apostle (Ephesians 2:19-20, see also Acts 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 12:12) with the gift of apostleship (Ephesians 4:11-13, 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). Apart from the chosen Apostles (Mark 3:13-19, Acts 1:18-26, Acts 9:1-16, Romans 1:1, etc.), the gift of apostleship was given to James (Galatians 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25), Silas and/or Timothy (1 Thessalonians 1:1 + 1 Thessalonians 2:7), and two unnamed believers (2 Corinthians 8:18-23).

What does the word "apostle" mean? The Greek word for "apostle" is apostolos (Strong's #652), which means:

"1. a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
a. specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
b. in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
b1. of Barnabas
b2. of Timothy and Silvanus" (Strong's Lexicon)

"a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle") (with miraculous powers):--apostle, messenger, he that is sent." (Strong's Greek Dictionary)

In essence, apostolos simply refers to "one sent forth," such as a messenger, delegate, or representative. However, the nature of this spiritual gift depends on situational context. Specifically, who does the sending? And why is a person sent? If you survey the Scriptures, you will notice that James, Barnabas, Epaphroditus, Silas, Timothy, and the two unnamed believers fulfill varying functions.

However, at the same time, I would agree that the gift of apostleship is a rare gift, which is counterfeited by many cults.

Agreed. Apostleship cannot be passed down in any form.

Hi!  I'm not angry and hence not responding!  I just suffer from an accute form of ADD.     Yes.  I'm kidding.  I just got busy.  Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanywho.  I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  Namely because the office of an apostle was given.  Yes, they were gifted to prove the office God gave them.  Regardless, however, it was an appointment - one you clearly showed by giving the definition.

Thanks for shedding light on this area my friend! 

His,

Kevin

[LuckyStrike]

We'll have to agree to disagree then, and that's fine. I won't argue it with you.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I will respect your wishes, so I will offer no rebuttal. Perhaps we can discuss this issue another time.

[Allinall]

I will respect your wishes, so I will offer no rebuttal. Perhaps we can discuss this issue another time.

No.  Absolutely not.  Ok.  Maybe.      Anytime...

[Shammu]

No.  Absolutely not.  Ok.  Maybe.      Anytime...

SNICKERS

or

[dan p]

There is no scripture to support APOSTOLIC  SUCCESSION, as there is no scripture to support Apostolic baptism. In the gospels , there is not any Christianity there. The question also is about Priests, and I don't see how they are from the tribe of Levi . To be a priest in Isreal you had to be a descendant from the tribe of Levi, and to be a High priest, you had to be a descendant of and from the tribe of Aaron. So their can not be any Priests today in the Body of Christ .   dan p

[Theophilocrates]

May I counsel softly softly on the question of Apostolic Succession?

John was the last of the original 12 apostles to die in AD100 and I presume the question really relates to succession thereafter.

So what are we saying?
That there were no Apostles after John?
Or are we saying that there were successive Apostles but that none were endued with anything like the authority and inspiration of the twelve?

Let us remember that between John’s death in AD100 and the 16th century successive ‘persons’ continued to shape and reshape the canon of scripture that we currently hold so dear and so faultless.
Please God there was at least something ‘special’ that enabled them to do so.

Let us also not forget that the first ‘versions’ of a bible were produced long after John when, in AD331, Emperor Constantine commissioned Eusebius to deliver fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople; providing the motivation for the canon lists, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus. Which, together with the Pegotcha2ta, were the earliest extant Christian Bibles.
Please God that Eusebius was suitably inspired.

Then let us not forget that it was Luther, in the 15th century, who first cast doubt on seven of the books previously considered to be canonical, causing the Council of Trent to restate Catholicism’s authorised canon..

And let us not forget that in the 16th century King James’ and his merry Shakespearean scholars further refined what we now hold have.

Without a considerable degree of inspirational authority after John we would be standing on very shaky ground IMHO.

I realise of course that the question is principally about Apostolic Church leadership as claimed mainly by Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but there remains a ‘baby and bathwater’ factor that needs watching.

[Soldier4Christ]

Apostolic Succession means spiritual authority passed down from the Apostles. This has nothing to do with inspiration from God alone which can happen to each and everyone of us. God can use people however he wishes and frequently does use even those that have rejected Him for His purposes. Whether those that put together what we know as the Holy Bible were or were not true followers of Christ is irrelevant. His word still stays true.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

The Office of Apostle ceased with the deaths of the originals. They all SAW JESUS CHRIST, and they had a specific purpose for a specific time. Do an expanded "word" study of 1 Corinthians 9:1 and follow all of the references and cross references. You will soon find that this is completely true.

Bluntly, those who claimed the Office of Apostle after the prescribed time of GOD did so for their own vanity and glory, NOT the Glory of GOD. I realize this is a blunt statement, but it needs to be blunt, ESPECIALLY nearing the End Days of this Age of Grace. Many will come claiming to be Apostles, Prophets, and CHRIST Himself - BUT they will be FALSE AND DECEIVE MANY! Many will also perform miracles, signs, and wonders that ARE NOT of GOD. We are to check and verify all things with the Forever Enduring WORD OF GOD. In fact, there are many outstanding reasons why we should "search the Scriptures" daily. GOD'S WORD is the only accurate measurement of ALL TRUTH! The Bereans were considered to be Noble because they did verify what they were told with the HOLY BIBLE. We must read the BIBLE for ourselves and learn how to test what we are told by men. If we don't, we will be easily deceived. GOD'S WORD is the ultimate test, and GOD intended it to be. At the top of our list, we should know that ONLY GOD is to be magnified, Glorified, praised, and worshipped.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Christian Quotes 191 -
What a temple for adoration and praise!
Who does not esteem the manifold teachings of Nature?
Who does not love . . .
her forest haunts, tremulous with music;
her flowers, swinging their censers of incense;
the brooks and streams and birds her choristers;
the blue dome of heaven her magnificent canopy?
What a sanctuary of holy thought!
What a temple for adoration and praise!
"The heavens tell of the glory of God.
The skies display His marvelous craftsmanship.
Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make Him known."
Psalms 19:1-2
 -- John MacDuff  1895

[Shammu]

1. Name: Andrew (means-"manly, conqueror").
Son of: Jona (dove)-Jn 1:42; Jonah-Jn 21:15; John-NIV.
Related to: brother of Peter.
Where from: Bethsaida-Jn 1:44.
Lived in: Bethsaida and Capernaum.
Occupation: Fisherman-Mk 1:16.
Originally a disciple of John the Baptist. Brought Peter to Jesus-Jn 1:41. Andrew and Peter owned a house together-Mk 1:29.
         
2. Name: Bartholomew (means-"son of Tolmai").
Also known as: Nathanael-Jn 1:45-49.
Son of: Tolmai.
Where from: Cana in Galilee.
Introduced to Jesus by Philip. Could have been of noble birth. Jesus said AN ISRAELITE... IN WHOM IS NO GUILE (or nothing false) Jn 1:47. Was brought to Jesus by Philip-ref Jn 1:45. He called Jesus the Son of God in Jn 1:49.
           
3. Name: James (Greek for Jacob, means-"supplanter").
Also known as: James the younger or the less.
Son of: Alphaeus.
Related to: possibly the brother of Matthew-ref Mk 2:14; ref Mt 10:3.
Lived in: Galilee.
           
4. Name: James * (Greek for Jacob, means-"supplanter").
Surnamed: Boanerges (the sons of thunder)-Mk 3:17.
Son of: Zebedee and Salome. Salome may have been the sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus, which would make him a cousin of Jesus-ref Mk 15:40; Jn 19:25.
Related to: brother of John.
Lived in: Bethsaida, Capernaum, and Jerusalem.
Occupation: Fisherman. James and John partners with Simon-ref Lk 5:10.
How died: Executed by King Herod Agrippa about 44 A.D.-ref Acts 12:2.
First of the twelve to die a martyr. Asked Jesus, WILT THOU THAT WE COMMAND FIRE TO COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, AND CONSUME THEM? Lk 9:54.
               
5. Name: John * (means-"gift of God").
Surnamed: Boanerges (the sons of thunder)-Mk 3:17.
Related to: brother of James. Son of: Zebedee and Salome. Salome may have been the sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus, which would make him a cousin of Jesus-ref Mk 15:40; Jn 19:25.
Lived in: Bethsaida, Capernaum, and Jerusalem.
Occupation: Fisherman. James and John partners with Simon-ref Lk 5:10.
Bible information: Wrote the Gospel According to John, First John, Second John, Third John, and the Revelation. This totals 5 books, 50 chapters, and 1,414 verses.
How died: It is believed he died a natural death.
James is always mentioned first. Only disciple mentioned that stood at the cross, yet allowed Peter to enter the tomb first. Cared for the mother of Jesus. Asked Jesus, WILT THOU THAT WE COMMAND FIRE TO COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, AND CONSUME THEM? Lk 9:54.
                 
6. Name: Judas-ref Jn 14:22 (means-"praise").
Also known as: Lebbaeus-Mt 10:3.
Surname: Thaddaeus-Mt 10:3.
Son of: James-ref Lk 6:16; Acts 1:13 NIV.
Lived in: Galilee.
                   
7. Name: Judas (means-"praise").
Surnamed: Iscariot-Lk 22:3.
Son of: Simon-Jn 6:71.
Where from: Kerioth, a Judean town, about 12 miles from Hebron. Not a Galilean.
How died: Hanged himself-Mt 27:5.
Betrayed Jesus. The treasurer and a thief-ref Jn 12:6. Fell by transgression-Acts 1:25. Matthias replaced him-Acts 1:20-26.
                 
8. Name: Matthew (also means-"gift of God").
Also known as: Levi-Lk 5:27-29.
Son of: Alphaeus-Mt 10:3; Mk 2:14.
Related to: Possibly the brother of James the less-ref Mk 2:14.
Lived in: Capernaum.
Occupation: Tax collector on road between Damascus and Accho just outside Capernaum.
Bible information: Wrote the Gospel According to Matthew.
Wealthy, owned his own house. Matthew himself lists the publicans with sinners-ref Mt 9:10; ref Lk 5:29.
                 
9. Name: Peter (means-"stone; rock")-Mt 16:18.
Also known as: Simon-Mt 4:18; Simon Barjona-Mt 16:17; Simeon-Acts 15:14; Cephas (rock)-ref Jn 1:42.
Son of: Jona (dove)-Jn 1:42; Jonah-Jn 21:15; John-Jn 21:15 NIV.
Related to: brother of Andrew.
Where from: Bethsaida-Jn 1:44.
Lived in: Bethsaida and Capernaum.
Occupation: Fishermen-Mk 1:16. James and John partners with Simon-ref Lk 5:10.
Bible information: He wrote First and Second Peter.
Originally a disciple of John the Baptist. Unpredictable. Andrew led him to Jesus.Was or had been married.
                         
10. Name: Philip (means-"lover of horses").
Where from: Bethsaida-Jn 1:44; 12:21.
Philip found Nathanael and brought him to Jesus-ref Jn 1:45-51. Jesus found Philip, and said, FOLLOW ME-Jn 1:43. In another Scripture, Philip said, LORD, SHOW US THE FATHER, AND IT SUFFICETH US (or will be enough for us)-Jn 14:8.
                   
11. Name: Simon (means-"hearing") Zelotes (the Zealot or zealous one)-Lk 6:15; Acts 1:13; also called the Canaanite (indicating his loyalty to Israel)-Mt 10:4; Mk 3:18.
Occupation: Member of the revolutionary Jewish Zealots.
Where from: Galilee.
             
12. Name: Thomas (means-"twin").
Also known as: Didymus-Jn 20:24.
Lived in: Galilee.
Misc: Made these statements, LET US ALSO GO, THAT WE MAY DIE WITH HIM-Jn 11:16; LORD, WE KNOW NOT WHITHER THOU GOEST; AND HOW CAN WE KNOW THE WAY?-Jn 14:5. He doubted the resurrection of Jesus until he could put his finger INTO THE PRINT OF THE NAILS-Jn 20:25.

2 other apostles the Bible tells us about.
               
13.Name: Matthias (means-"gift of God").
Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot, who fell by transgression. For it is written, IN THOSE DAYS PETER STOOD UP...AND SAID...MEN AND BRETHREN, THIS SCRIPTURE MUST NEEDS HAVE BEEN FULFILLED...CONCERNING JUDAS...FOR HE WAS NUMBERED WITH US, AND HAD OBTAINED PART OF THIS MINISTRY. FOR IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF PSALMS, LET HIS HABITATION (or place) BE DESOLATE, AND LET NO MAN DWELL THEREIN: AND HIS BISHOPRICK (or leadership) LET ANOTHER TAKE-Acts 1:15-17,20;  Ps 69:25; 109:8. WHEREFORE OF THESE MEN WHICH HAVE COMPANIED (or been) WITH US ALL THE TIME THAT THE LORD JESUS WENT IN AND OUT AMONG US, BEGINNING FROM THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, UNTO THAT SAME DAY THAT HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US, MUST ONE BE ORDAINED TO BE A WITNESS WITH US OF HIS RESURRECTION. AND THEY PRAYED...AND THEY GAVE FORTH THEIR LOTS; AND THE LOT FELL UPON MATTHIAS; AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH THE ELEVEN APOSTLES Acts 1:21,22,24,26. MAY ANOTHER TAKE HIS PLACE OF LEADERSHIP Acts 1:20 NIV. Matthias had to have been with the apostles, as it is written, IT IS NECESSARY TO CHOOSE ONE…WHO HAVE BEEN WITH US...BEGINNING FROM JOHN’S BAPTISM TO THE TIME WHEN JESUS WAS TAKEN UP Acts 1:21,22 NIV. HE WAS NUMBERED WITH THE ELEVEN APOSTLES Acts 1:26.
         
14. Name: Paul (means-"little").
Also known as: Saul of Tarsus.
Where from: Tarsus-Acts 21:39; Tarsus was in Cilicia-Acts 22:3. Tarsus was a "free city."
Occupation: A Pharisee-Phili 3:5. Before his conversion, he persecuted the church-Acts 22:4. Was also a tent maker-Acts 18:1-3.

Bible information: Paul wrote more books of the New Testament than any other person. He wrote Romans, First and Second Cor, Gal, Eph, Phili, Col, First and Second Thes, First and Second Tim, Titus, and Phile. This totals 13 books, 87 chapters, and 2,033 verses. The author of Hebrews is uncertain although some credit Paul with writing it, also.
How died: He was beheaded in Rome.
He was of the tribe of Benjamin Phili 3:5. Was a Roman citizen-ref Acts 22:25. He was free born-Acts 22:28. He studied under Gamaliel-Acts 22:3. Was struck down by Jesus when he was on his way to Damascus-Acts 22:6. From this point on, he used his Roman name, Paul. HIS BODILY PRESENCE IS WEAK (or unimpressive), AND HIS SPEECH CONTEMPTIBLE (or amounts to nothing) 2 Cor 10:10. An apostle-Ro 1:1. An apostle of the Gentiles Ro 11:13.

Studies in the Bible tell us, all the apostles died a violent death, except John.

[nChrist]

Amen DreamWeaver!

Brother Bob, I enjoyed that and copied it for additional study. THANKS!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Christian Quotes 166 -
The old, the weak, the decrepit, the bedridden
How prone we are presumptuously to calculate on the
continuance of life! "My pulse is vigorous. My eye is
undimmed. My natural strength is unabated. The race
is to the swift - I am one of them. The battle is to the
strong - I am one of them. The old, the weak, the
decrepit, the bedridden, will and must before long
be swept down like the seared leaves of autumn. But
I am as a green fir tree. The spring's verdure is only
now clothing me. The summer's zephyrs have yet to
fan me. The autumn skies have yet to canopy me. The
axe may be laid to the root of others, but I shall bring
forth fruit in old age - I shall be fat and flourishing. The
morrow shall be as today, and much more abundant!"
Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go
to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business
and make money." Why, you do not even know what will
happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that
appears for a little while and then vanishes!  James 4:13-14
 -- John MacDuff  1895

[Shammu]

Now I'll finish my last post.

Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

In light of this passage, then, how do we properly understand these gifts in the Body of Christ?

First, these are FUNCTIONS, not "offices" or titles. These gifts are not capital "A" apostles, ot capital "P" Prophets. These are men given to the Body of Christ for its maturing, its edification, its education. In fact, even Paul never referred to himself with the title "Apostle". He begins all his epistles simply, "Paul, an apostle..." So the folks running around saying I'm "Apostle so and so," or "I'm Prophet this and that," is, to say the least, in error.

Second, The "apostles" of the Lord were obviously unique in that they were "with Jesus" during His Earthly ministry, although Paul was an exception, sort of... He was, however, given the message he preached directly by Jesus

Galatians 1:11-12, 16-19 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

When Paul went to Seminary for three years, it was in the Arabian Desert, and Paul's instructor was Jesus Christ Himself!!

In this sense, the first apostles were exceptional, unique, and different, in that they became the foundation on which the whole Church was to be built. Certainly they operated with a special anointing under direct inspiration to achieve such a task. At the same time, others are called "apostles" in that they are the "sent ones" of the Church. They are charged with a specific message or mission, and are sent out to complete it. The "apostles of the church" serve the same role in preaching the Gospel in the fields, and establishing the church on the frontiers. In other words, today's "missionaries" function in the role of "apostles" in the biblical sense.

Prophets were charged primarily with the task of telling the message of God, more so than telling future events. Prophets are confrontational in pointing out the sin of God's people, and of the surrounding culture of which they are a part. They exhort and reprove. And usually, they are not well liked. Speaking truth to power can be...problematic for them, and the people they confront. I know some preachers who try to "pastor" churches though they really have a prophetic anointing, which explains why they can't stay at a church for more than 2 years without being fired or finding a way to leave. it should be noted, prophets today have the understanding of Biblical prophecy. They DO NOT, have the ability to give prophecy!!

Pastors lead, feed and protect the flock. That's their calling, and their task. Often, prophets or evangelists try to be pastors, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if they've got supportive staffs who compliment his gifts. But if he is the single pastor of a small church, it won't take long for him, or the congregation, to see it isn't what he's suited for in ministry.

Teachers are always needed in the church to educate the people. There are those within the ministry who are called to this task specifically, whether in the local church setting, or in para-church ministries, or in colleges an seminaries.

These ministry gifts not only DO, but MUST, exist if the church is to carry out its great commission. Often, the reason the church fails to carry out its primary task is due at least in part to ignorance of misunderstanding of these essential functional ministries in the Body of Christ.

My own gift is understanding prophecy, as well as being a pastor to my Church. A simple understanding of these functions are..........

Apostles: Govern the Body particularly new works, church plants, etc. etc.

Prophets: Guide the Body through understanding Biblical prophecy

Evangelists: Gather the Body from among the lost sheep

Pastors: Guard the Body

Teachers: Grow the Body

There maybe a simpler way to describe the different functions in a church, but I don't know how to describe it......

Peace and Grace unto you.
Bob

[nChrist]

Hello DreamWeaver,

Brother Bob, I'll have to pleasantly agree to disagree with portions of this last post. I think that I'll just leave it at that.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Favorite Bible Quotes 432 - Revelation 1:7-8 Behold, he cometh with
clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so,
Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the
Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

[Soldier4Christ]

I think the confusion comes in here because of the meaning that is given to the Greek word "apostolos". The word does mean " a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent. With this meaning the word could be applied to many.

However not only did the person need to be selected by Jesus Christ, in order to be an ordained Apostle the person also had to be an eye witness to the events of His life here on earth. Acts 1 : 22

[ravenloche]

The number one problem with the concept of apostolic succession is the definition of an apostle.  An apostle was an apostle because:

1.  They personally witnessed the risen Christ.
2.  They were personally taught by Christ.
3.  They were personally called an apostle by Christ.

See a common thread?  My problem with this "succession" is that in order for it to meet the defenition, both historically and scripturally, Jesus is still giving us further revelation.  This is, biblically speaking, heresy.

Acording to the above criteria we must now throw out 2/3 of our new testament!

Saul, later called Paul, was not part of the original members of the upper room(I start there to shorten the gasps I still hear from my statement above)

Eph 4:11--he gave some apostles, some prophets,some evangelist, pastors, and teachers. for the working of the ministry-the edifying of the body, and the perfecting of the saints.

we have been given a five fold ministy by the Lord to teach us how to walk with him. Yet seldom do we see more than three of these ministries active in the body of believers. If we are not perfect(I'll raise my hand to that! and those of you who don't need to go to the alter and repent!) then we still need, and have all 5 ministries present. I firmly believe this, but I also know that many will not claim to be "prophets, or apostles" because of the ridicule they will receive, not from non-believers, but from within the body of the church. God has not change, God will not change. What he gave to one person is available to anyone who is willing to pay the cost of obedience to receive it.

Do you think Paul had fun being beaten? shipwrecked? put in chains? Prison? Do you think it brought him fame and fortune? Or do you think when he sold out to a loving savior he gave his all. We must learn that in order to live we die, in order to be anything at all in the kingdom of God it must be Christ in us our hope of Glory.

We can not get from God what we are dying to receive untill we can give to Him what is killing us.

As we sell out all that we have, and die to all that we are, then the new creature that we are will mature into the measure and the stature of the fullnes of Christ. we will become sons of God, and workers in the kingdom of our Lord

respectfully yours in Yeshua

ravenloche

[nChrist]

Hello Ravenloche,

The Apostle Paul was specifically taught by CHRIST. On the rest of it, we can simply agree to disagree. Semantics and various misunderstandings of certain words cause a lot of confusion. A lot of today's problems deal with the vanity of man - NOT the GLORY OF GOD. I remember well the last person who introduced himself as an Apostle to me. I told him, "I'm Marvin the Martian and I'm glad to meet you." A decent ancient language dictionary used with applicable portions of Scripture would be enlightening. Agreeing to disagree isn't that bad either.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Favorite Bible Quotes 271 - John 6:39 And this is the Father's will
which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose
nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.