Muslims and the cartoon

[Rhys]

You don't perchance live in the Indianapolis, IN area and play Axis and Allies, do you?    Cuz, ooooooh would I ever like to play you!     Seriously though, you can have the technology, but you need men on the ground to win a war.  You can win every battle with technology but it takes manpower to win the war and hold the ground.  Fundamentals of warfare my friend.  Fundamentals.  So, wanna play A&A?    (I'm just playin' around  )

Sorry, I was never much of a gamer and have never played Axis and Allies!

"you need men on the ground to win a war" That depends on what you mean by "win". If you want to occupy a country (like Iraq) you need lots of manpower, a fact our leaders overlooked. Our objective was not to "win" but to overthrow Saddam and institute a democratic government and create a stable, friendly state. We could have "won" without a soldier setting foot on the ground by launching a dozen or so ICBM's equipped with high yield warheads, taking out most of the military and all of the infastructure needed for a functioning economy, preventing the military from being rebuilt in the foreseeable future. Unleashing a plague would wipe out most of the remaining population, if necessary.

Understand I am not recommending such a war nor would I want to see one, but if the West was facing a 2 million man army and in danger of being overrun do you really believe it would refrain from using any weapons it has available?

I do believe that all of North America will be absent from the final attack on Israel from Russia and the kingdoms of the East.
U.s. and allied power are the only thing keeping the attacks from happening now, or the past.

I believe the Rapture will severely deplete much of North America's populace, and the resulting confusion and chaotic atmosphere the Rapture will cause will leave us open to a final powerful and effective attack from our enemies.
It doesn't take much technological resource to launch an E.M.P. weapon. A small fishing vessel with a minimal crew is a very effective way of launching such an attack, and that will be it for the scattered allied forces - those left behind will be left vulnerable, and will be forced to stand by and watch as the remaining world powers take their revenge out on Israel.

This is why we read these nations pounding Israel in the pages of Revelation and other end times passages without any sign of any intervention from any allied forces. It's Israel against the kings of the North and the kings of the East.

I agree that North America seems to be absent in Biblical accounts of Armageddon. I don't think this wlll be because of an EMP attack, which I would rate as a risk with the Y2K crisis. An EMP attack might hinder parts of the US but wouldn't cripple it.

The Islamist strategy, as put forward by Bin Laden, is to bleed America dry economically. Once America's economy is gone, it can no longer support a military force capable of intervening worldwide, allowing Bin Laden to achieve his goal of overthrowing Saudi Arabia and establishing an Islamic caliphate. If you look at our deficit and where the economy is headed, Bin Laden seems to be winning.. The rapture will undoubtedly decrease the population to some extent worldwide, but it is doubtful that it will deplete any country to a siignificant extent - Christians are a small minority everywhere, including North America.

While the Bible doesn't mention America it is important to note it also doesn't mention Islam. I grew up in the era when most Christians believed Communism was the system of the Antichrist and they interpreted everything in prophecy accordingly. I remember a friend ranting about Communism and I told him it was a dead horse, Islam was the next great enemy we would face (this was before the fall of the Berlin wall). He just blew me off and went on about Communism.

It now seems that Islam has replaced communism in Christians' minds, but I don't believe Islam fits the system of the Antichrist or with Scripture. Moslems would never worship the Beast. The Bible never stated Russia would attack Israel. The 'kings of the north" in scripture almost always refers to the Media-Persia area. Gog, Magog, and Meschech are interpreted by some to include Russia, but there isn't much firm basis for the interpretation. Plus Russia is no longer Athiestic and isn't Islamic either. There are probably as many or more Christians there as in America.

Note in the Scriptural accounts of Armageddon that horses and wooden weapons are used. This would indicate that the technological civilization we now inhabit has collapsed, though some of its weapons may remain. It is possible that an all out war between Islam and the West will destroy both, along with modern civilization, leaving the way open for the rise of the antichrist.

While it is fun to speculate on these things, we need to avoid getting too dogmatic. Unless one of us is a prophet, while we know generally what God is bringing about from Scripture, we don't know the exact details of how He is going to do it.

The end of this age will signal the beginning of a time when the Great Restrainer (Holy Spirit) will no longer hold in check the forces of evil. Great Wrath from the devil and from GOD will be poured out on the people of the earth. Brothers and Sisters, I think this time grows near. Regardless of the time, there should always be an urgency for Christians to share the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of the Grace of God. There should always be a heavy burden on the hearts of Christians for lost family members, lost friends, and all lost people that we come accross. AND, it is always time for us to give thanks that we belong to JESUS.

Amen!

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi Rhys

Moslems would never worship the Beast.

Here I must disagree with you. Islam is well known for worshipping false prophets. If a prophet comes doing wondrous things, portraying himself as a messiah this would be a definite possibility. Many Moslems already show this with a false prophet called Maitrieya (sp) that has presented himself to them in the last few years.

While it is fun to speculate on these things, we need to avoid getting too dogmatic. Unless one of us is a prophet, while we know generally what God is bringing about from Scripture, we don't know the exact details of how He is going to do it.

Here I agree with you somewhat although I consider it more than just "fun". We are told to watch. Part of watching is to look at the things that are going on around us. To see what is happening and comparing it to the things that God told us would happen.

[Rhys]

While it is fun to speculate on these things, we need to avoid getting too dogmatic. Unless one of us is a prophet, while we know generally what God is bringing about from Scripture, we don't know the exact details of how He is going to do it.

Here I agree with you somewhat although I consider it more than just "fun". We are told to watch. Part of watching is to look at the things that are going on around us. To see what is happening and comparing it to the things that God told us would happen.

Matthew 24: 42 - 45: We are told to watch, but the motivation is that we will be doing Christ's will when he comes. I have seen too many Christians become so totally obsessed with the End Times that they neglect Christ's work and spend all their energy on what is happening in the world and how it fits in with prophecy. I guess my point is that we should be doing Christ's will - whether today is the end times or 2000 years from now doesn't really matter in that regard and we can't do anything about it anyway. In Matthew 24:36 and 42 Christ said no man knows when the end is. We should always be ready for it could be today, but dogmatically tying it to certain economic systems or religions that exist at present can lead us into error.

[Soldier4Christ]

We should always be ready for it could be today

AMEN!!

[nChrist]

Rhys Said:

Note in the Scriptural accounts of Armageddon that horses and wooden weapons are used. This would indicate that the technological civilization we now inhabit has collapsed, though some of its weapons may remain. It is possible that an all out war between Islam and the West will destroy both, along with modern civilization, leaving the way open for the rise of the antichrist.

While it is fun to speculate on these things, we need to avoid getting too dogmatic. Unless one of us is a prophet, while we know generally what God is bringing about from Scripture, we don't know the exact details of how He is going to do it.

Hello Rhys,

Most of the people I know who study Bible Prophecy know there are a lot of unknowns and are open to study various reasonable alternatives. Many Christians do get somewhat dogmatic when someone starts hollering that everyone who believes in the Rapture is a heretic - or like statements. I believe that the Rapture is an absolute Biblical fact, but the timing and sequence of events involves some reasonable questions. I, for one, don't believe there is any reason for one Christian to call another Christian a heretic if they don't agree about specifics in Bible prophecy. It's fascinating to have Bible studies in Prophecy, but only if the name callers are absent from the study and discussion.

Rhys, we have managed to have many fascinating and excellent Bible studies on prophecy. Nearly all of the people we have who become involved have no interest in calling anyone names or making fun of someone because they have a different belief. It is fun to have an open mind and study the reasons and Biblical references for various beliefs. You probably already know that most studies in Bible Prophecy are very difficult and time consuming. So, most of the participants already love Bible study, and they don't mind spending the time to study various beliefs. Further, they simply want a pleasant Bible study with other Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Disagreements should not be allowed to spoil the fellowship, and the more mature Christians are quite capable of having discussions about differences in a loving manner.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Proverbs 13:22 NASB  A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, And the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.

[Allinall]

Hey now!  No A&A (will have to look into that) but anyone like Chess?   Woohoo!  Thats my game of war....and perfect example of required force needed for winning...of course if you could launch a nuke from the starting position in chess the other side is wiped out (check mate?), which I think is the idea that Rhys is saying.   


Either way, I have always thought that world leaders should be required to play chess over world issues lol.    How simple and bloodless would that be? 


So where can I read about this A&A game?

It's alot of fun.  Takes about 4 hours to play a game though.  There is also a PC version of the game.  But, here's the link:

http://www.timegate.com/aa/

Enjoy!   

[Bronzesnake]

Rhys quote

I agree that North America seems to be absent in Biblical accounts of Armageddon. I don't think this wlll be because of an EMP attack, which I would rate as a risk with the Y2K crisis. An EMP attack might hinder parts of the US but wouldn't cripple it.

The Islamist strategy, as put forward by Bin Laden, is to bleed America dry economically. Once America's economy is gone, it can no longer support a military force capable of intervening worldwide, allowing Bin Laden to achieve his goal of overthrowing Saudi Arabia and establishing an Islamic caliphate. If you look at our deficit and where the economy is headed, Bin Laden seems to be winning.. The rapture will undoubtedly decrease the population to some extent worldwide, but it is doubtful that it will deplete any country to a siignificant extent - Christians are a small minority everywhere, including North America.

 While the Bible doesn't mention America it is important to note it also doesn't mention Islam. I grew up in the era when most Christians believed Communism was the system of the Antichrist and they interpreted everything in prophecy accordingly. I remember a friend ranting about Communism and I told him it was a dead horse, Islam was the next great enemy we would face (this was before the fall of the Berlin wall). He just blew me off and went on about Communism. 

It now seems that Islam has replaced communism in Christians' minds, but I don't believe Islam fits the system of the Antichrist or with Scripture. Moslems would never worship the Beast. The Bible never stated Russia would attack Israel. The 'kings of the north" in scripture almost always refers to the Media-Persia area. Gog, Magog, and Meschech are interpreted by some to include Russia, but there isn't much firm basis for the interpretation. Plus Russia is no longer Athiestic and isn't Islamic either. There are probably as many or more Christians there as in America.

Hello my friend.

First of all, I agree, it will take a combined effort to knock America out of action. The E.M.P. weapon is just one tool of combined strategical effort. However, I believe the E.M.P. will be more effective than you believe it will be. A more effective tool will be the Arabs ability to cut off the flow of oil from the allied forces. A strategically timed E.M.P. attack will make an attempted ceasure of any oil field or depot by the allies virtually impossible. That's just one example of how effective the E.M.P. weapon can be.

North America has the largest Christian population in the world. Over 70% of U.S. citizens alone claim to be Christian.
Communism is not dead my friend. I submit that Mr.Putin and his friends are still communist, and are working very closely and behind the scenes with communist China. These two countries alone combine to make a fierce military force without the aid of any Arab nations. The fact is that the former republics of the USSR, Russai, China, Eastern Europe, and the Arabs will all attack Israel. This is fact because God says it is.

The Bible never stated Russia would attack Israel. The 'kings of the north" in scripture almost always refers to the Media-Persia area. Gog, Magog, and Meschech are interpreted by some to include Russia, but there isn't much firm basis for the interpretation.

Yes, the Bible does state that Russia will attack Israel. You are misinformed about the Kings of the North and God and Magog my friend.

More than twenty-five hundred years ago, Ezekiel prophesied about an invasion by Russia (called "Magog") and her allies that would occur during the last days, "after many days." He said that after Israel was reborn as a nation, Russia and her allies would attack her in a violent attempt to completely annihilate the Jewish state. Naturally, Ezekiel did not describe the present nations of Russia, Germany, Syria, and Iraq by their modern names. Rather, he referred to them by the names of the ancient tribes that occupied the geographical territories of the present nations at the time of his writing. The prophecies found in Ezekiel, chapter 38 and 39, describe this massive, future Russian-Arab invasion of Israel and the spectacular defeat of the enemies of the Jews by the supernatural act of God.

The Lord warned the leader of Russia in these words addressed to Gog, the ruler of Magog (Russia):

Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them. After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. (Ezekiel 38:7­9)

Many of the tribal names in Ezekiel 38 are recorded in the book of Genesis. Following the Flood, Noah's sons and grandsons dispersed to various parts of Asia, Europe, and Africa. Genesis 10 records the ancient genealogy of the nations, naming the tribes descended from Noah's children, later referred to by Ezekiel. Ancient historians, including Herodotus and Flavius Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews, tell us where most of these tribes ultimately settled.

If we use the Bible as our source of information, we can understand with certainty where these ancient nations are.

The land of Magog - Russia

Meshech and Tubal - Somewhere in Russia

Persia - Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan

Ethiopia - Ethiopia and Sudan

Libya - Libya

Ashkenaz - Austria and Germany

Gomer - Eastern Europe

Togarmah - Southeastern Europe - Turkey

"Many peoples with thee" - Various other nations allied to Russia


Bronzesnake

[ollie]

First of all...Thank you my friends! It is good to be home again!

I do believe that all of North America will be absent from the final attack on Israel from Russia and the kingdoms of the East.
U.s. and allied power are the only thing keeping the attacks from happening now, or the past.

I believe the Rapture will severely deplete much of North America's populace, and the resulting confusion and chaotic atmosphere the Rapture will cause will leave us open to a final powerful and effective attack from our enemies.
It doesn't take much technological resource to launch an E.M.P. weapon. A small fishing vessel with a minimal crew is a very effective way of launching such an attack, and that will be it for the scattered allied forces - those left behind will be left vulnerable, and will be forced to stand by and watch as the remaining world powers take their revenge out on Israel.

This is why we read these nations pounding Israel in the pages of Revelation and other end times passages without any sign of any intervention from any allied forces. It's Israel against the kings of the North and the kings of the East.

Bronzesnake

"U.s. and allied power are the only thing keeping the attacks from happening now, or the past."

Israel has managed quiet well defending herself, physically, in the past with out America's physical power. America has only supplied her with much dollars and sold her military equipment. It is America's money and technology in superior weaponry that aid Israel in forgoing attack and the ability to defend using her manpower. The Iraeli soldier is one of the best in the world.

My thoughts on it.

ollie

[Shammu]

The Iraeli soldier is one of the best in the world.

My thoughts on it.

ollie

Hi Ollie, long time, no see.

The best warrior, is Christ. Christ said, he would liberate Israel and I believe it.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

[ollie]

Hi Ollie, long time, no see.

The best warrior, is Christ. Christ said, he would liberate Israel and I believe it.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Hi,

Yes Christ is the only warrior for redemption back to God. He leads in the battle for victory over satan and faith is the victory.

Christ offers liberation and victory to the Jew now. Many refuse especially secular Israel.

[Bronzesnake]

"U.s. and allied power are the only thing keeping the attacks from happening now, or the past."

Israel has managed quiet well defending herself, physically, in the past with out America's physical power. America has only supplied her with much dollars and sold her military equipment. It is America's money and technology in superior weaponry that aid Israel in forgoing attack and the ability to defend using her manpower. The Iraeli soldier is one of the best in the world.

My thoughts on it.

ollie

Absolutely Ollie.

Here's a wee side note...

Ezekiel was given an astonishingly accurate prophetic vision about the rebirth of the nation of Israel that would occur in the spring of 1948, as detailed in chapter 3. He foretold that Israel would arise miraculously from the graveyard of the nations, where she was buried with the ruins of Jerusalem in a.d. 70 by the Roman army led by Titus. Incredibly, God promised that the Jews, after almost two thousand years of exile, would return to the Promised Land. The ancient prophets also foretold that the Jewish exiles would become "a mighty army" in her ancient homeland. In 1948, Israel triumphed against an invasion by six well-armed Arab armies. Israel's military forces consisted of a small, voluntary citizen army composed of unskilled farmers and scholars who were equipped with inadequate weapons, a few jeeps, and two small airplanes. Israel's armored force consisted of several vehicles captured from her enemies, including trucks with improvised steel plates. Yet, like David's miraculous victory over Goliath, God supernaturally intervened to allow a weak Israel to survive and prosper, defeating her Arab enemies against incredible odds.

Did you know that the first nation to formally recognize the state of Israel was Russia? in 1948 Joseph Stalin hoped that Israel would become a socialist nation and help offset the growing influence that the Western powers exercised in the Middle East. However, as Stalin soon came to realize, Israel would not become a Russian pawn, so Russia quickly turned to the Arabs and encouraged their hatred toward the Jewish state.

So, as in the past, today Russia, along with her Arab and Eastern aliies, are once again planning to destroy Israel.
We are in agreement that Israel is a powerful military nation that has handled herself very well in the past in the face of exceedingly grave odds. With the hand of God Israel has managed to keep the wolf at bay. So it's not as if Israel needs America to fend off Israel's enemies, God will see to that. It's the impression that the enemies have, that they can not attack Israel while the American's and her allies are at Israel's side which keeps them from attacking now, and has kept the attack from happening in the past. Russia did not physically get involved in the attack in 1948, although she did encourage and support the Aran effort. Russia did not get involved because of America and the allies. If Russia had have gotten involved, America and the allies would have also joined into battle.

So now, Russia and her friends have spent decades living with the American and allied foot on their throats. They have been busy working behind the scenes building up an impressive military force with American money! A combined effort by these nations, and the fact that U.S. and allied forces are spread dangerously thin around the world will be enough to break the allied back. The time is right for this attack to be successful.

Take care my friend.

Bronzesnake

[Allinall]

"you need men on the ground to win a war" That depends on what you mean by "win". If you want to occupy a country (like Iraq) you need lots of manpower, a fact our leaders overlooked. Our objective was not to "win" but to overthrow Saddam and institute a democratic government and create a stable, friendly state. We could have "won" without a soldier setting foot on the ground by launching a dozen or so ICBM's equipped with high yield warheads, taking out most of the military and all of the infastructure needed for a functioning economy, preventing the military from being rebuilt in the foreseeable future. Unleashing a plague would wipe out most of the remaining population, if necessary.

Hey Dude!     By "win" I mean "win".     We can effectively wipe anyone out technologically, and leave a void on their militaristic and governmental fronts.  A void that would be filled by...?  I should wait on this or turn this into a PM discussion as it's off topic in the thread.  I'm just enjoying the conversation with you!

[Blademan]

What are we to make of these Islamists fanatics?
I understand being upset when atheist liberals are constantly taking liberties with Jesus and or Mohammad, but these people have a severe propensity for violence at the tip of a hat.

I've heard it said before that islam (small "i" was intentional) is more of a political philosophy than it is religious, even though it has within its makeup a religious dynamic. They also have no hope upon which they can trust, like we have in Christ.

Every works-based system of salvation always looks upon any criticism of its beliefs and icons as being an attack of the people in taht religion personally. Those within islam just so happen to be more violent than others. Those within mormonism also cop the martyr syndrome when anyone offers criticism of the inconsistencies in the mormonic theology.

[Shammu]

I've heard it said before that islam (small "i" was intentional) is more of a political philosophy than it is religious, even though it has within its makeup a religious dynamic. They also have no hope upon which they can trust, like we have in Christ.

I always make it a point to use a "i".

Every works-based system of salvation always looks upon any criticism of its beliefs and icons as being an attack of the people in taht religion personally. Those within islam just so happen to be more violent than others. Those within mormonism also cop the martyr syndrome when anyone offers criticism of the inconsistencies in the mormonic theology.

Such is the ways, of cults. A cult denies what they don't want, and tosses it away. Leaving them with an abstract of what was truth, into little more then lies.

[piusx]

forgive me for sounding a bit pompous but have any of you fine people ever read the koran. It gets me hot under the collar when i hear people say we are at war with extremist...yeah they are called muslims. This is a ideology that must be wiped off the face of the earth. Think of it as a Crusade.