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nChrist
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« Reply #75 on: July 12, 2005, 03:30:27 PM » |
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Amen Brothers and Sisters,
This has the makings of a great thread, and I'm enjoying the posts.
I think that the biggest problem right now is the Supreme Court. They were never given the power to make law. Making law is reserved for our elected representatives. It is painfully obvious that the Supreme Court is indeed making law and has been for a long time. God willing, we will soon have one or two more on the Supreme Court who will use the Constitution instead of the ACLU and norms in other countries.
Love In Christ,
Tom
Psalms 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
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JimmySwift
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I'm a llama!
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« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2005, 02:27:17 AM » |
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Hi Guys,
Glad to see the lively debate.
As a general point, I think many people here seem to have an automatic aversion to anyone trying to make a point, using historical context. I am not trying to re-write history, nor do I think my points are inspired by satan.
Many of you seem to staunchly beleive that the United States was founded as some sort of "Christian Nation." While I do agree that many of its principles and symbols are quite christan, the U.S. was never meant to be the theocracy that you seem to crave, and I dread. In fact, the U.S. constitution and other important political tenants are modeled more on the political writings of guys like Hobbes and Locke than the Bible. This is not to say that God played no role in the event, I'm sure he did, but I'm not sure about this idea that the U.S. is some sort of neo-promised land.
Through my study of the topic, it would appear as though the early settlers were trying to escape from, and not create a government run religion. Many of them felt oppressed in the European models of a state run by religious dogma and so founded a nation based on good government and not neccesarily the rules of the clergy
Again, I'm sure many of you have different views on this, and as BEP said, it's nice to see such a great debate.
Cheers,
Jimmy
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #77 on: July 13, 2005, 03:00:23 AM » |
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I agree that the U.S. was never intended to be a theocracy. Nor would I want it to be. It is an undeniable fact though that it was founded on the belief of God. There are many that do want to write this fact out of history and give the credit solely to "guys like Hobbes and Locke". I am not saying that these two people did not figure into it. Just that they were not the sole foundation, especially so Hobbes.
Reading many writings and speaches of the founding fathers such as Ben Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and more it is plainly visible that God was a center point in their lives and the basis for their actions. They simply did not want a government telling them how they could or could not believe nor punishing them for worshipping when and where they chose to do so.
Unfortunately the U.S. government is coming to this point now. Telling people when and where they are allowed to worship.
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Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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nChrist
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« Reply #78 on: July 13, 2005, 03:07:22 AM » |
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JimmySwift Said:
As a general point, I think many people here seem to have an automatic aversion to anyone trying to make a point, using historical context. I am not trying to re-write history, nor do I think my points are inspired by satan. Hello JimmySwift, On the contrary, using historical context is exactly what I want people to use. That's what has been hidden, and there's a reason for that. It leaves the left without a clue, speechless, and dumbfounded. Putting everything into historical perspective makes the left look silly and without education. If everything was put into historical perspective the only hope left for liberal progress would be rogue-activist judges who ignore the Constitution and make their own law. Regarding the founding of America as a Christian nation and for a Christian people is a fact that has been given judicial notice countless times. If one wishes to ignore judicial notice, there is over 200 years of historical perspective to look at. The facts and evidence are overwhelming and beyond debate. The only thing subject to debate is what America has become over the last 50 years. Love In Christ, Tom 1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. |
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Reba
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« Reply #79 on: July 13, 2005, 08:58:06 AM » |
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Hi Guys,
Glad to see the lively debate.
As a general point, I think many people here seem to have an automatic aversion to anyone trying to make a point, using historical context. I am not trying to re-write history, nor do I think my points are inspired by satan.
Many of you seem to staunchly beleive that the United States was founded as some sort of "Christian Nation." While I do agree that many of its principles and symbols are quite christan, the U.S. was never meant to be the theocracy that you seem to crave, and I dread. In fact, the U.S. constitution and other important political tenants are modeled more on the political writings of guys like Hobbes and Locke than the Bible. This is not to say that God played no role in the event, I'm sure he did, but I'm not sure about this idea that the U.S. is some sort of neo-promised land.
Through my study of the topic, it would appear as though the early settlers were trying to escape from, and not create a government run religion. Many of them felt oppressed in the European models of a state run by religious dogma and so founded a nation based on good government and not neccesarily the rules of the clergy
Again, I'm sure many of you have different views on this, and as BEP said, it's nice to see such a great debate.
Cheers,
Jimmy
Circle Jimmy, |
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #80 on: July 13, 2005, 09:50:52 PM » |
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Some interesting information on the founding of the U.S by James Madison. At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22; “For the LORD is our judge, [judicial] the LORD is our lawgiver, [legislative] the LORD is our king; [executive] He will save us.” Baron Charles Montesquieu wrote "The Spirit of the Laws", a book that was read and studied intently by our Founders. Montesquieu wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government. This information plus much more, with supporting documentation is available at: http://www.eadshome.com/JamesMadison.htm |
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Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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JimmySwift
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Posts: 47
I'm a llama!
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« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2005, 10:38:16 PM » |
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Reba,
Thank you for your valuable contribution to our discussion regarding the intentions of the founding fathers.
cheers,
Jimmy
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Reba
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« Reply #82 on: July 14, 2005, 12:17:43 AM » |
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Wow!  PR that is interesting. I cant believe what is tought in our schools these days, as history. To read the writtings of our forfathers and see over and over how much they relied on Scripture is heart warming. Again these words come to mind..... 2 Chron 7:14 14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. KJV |
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nChrist
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« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2005, 12:24:12 AM » |
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Brothers and Sisters,
If someone wants to learn just about all there is about the founding of America, I highly recommend the Library of Congress On line. It's an amazing place, and it has very powerful search functions. "Religious Freedom" will yield a huge variety of documents from and about the founders. It's a fascinating place for any student of history.
Students of the Constitution will find out pretty quickly that many of our courts, especially Federal Courts and the Supreme Court, no longer pay much attention to it. The "Balance of Powers" that the founders intended has been broken for a long time. If the founders discovered what became of their dreams, they would be ready to fight the Revolution again.
Love In Christ,
Tom
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
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Reba
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« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2005, 12:32:50 AM » |
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Mr. Bepster,
A tea party might be a good thing...
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nChrist
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« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2005, 12:34:16 AM » |
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Some interesting information on the founding of the U.S by James Madison. At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22; “For the LORD is our judge, [judicial] the LORD is our lawgiver, [legislative] the LORD is our king; [executive] He will save us.” Baron Charles Montesquieu wrote "The Spirit of the Laws", a book that was read and studied intently by our Founders. Montesquieu wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government. This information plus much more, with supporting documentation is available at: http://www.eadshome.com/JamesMadison.htmPastor Roger, Thanks brother, I find information like this to be more than just interesting. Many of the other facts of early America are just as fascinating. Your post caused me to reflect on many of the original law books. The laws regarding major offenses quoted Chapter and Verse of the Holy Bible as the Authority for those laws. There's an almost endless list of amazing facts like this that completely erases any doubt about what America was at one time. Love In Christ, Tom Psalms 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. |
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #86 on: July 14, 2005, 12:43:43 AM » |
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I agree with Beps, the Library of Congress is the best place to get information on the founding of our country. There is much information on the internet that is false both for and against. The Library of Congress holds the orignal documents and not things that are made up by overly zealous people.
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Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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nChrist
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« Reply #87 on: July 14, 2005, 12:43:58 AM » |
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Mr. Bepster,
A tea party might be a good thing...
Sister Reba, I'm laughing, thinking about what a shock it would be for the founders to see what has become of Congress.  I'm wondering if they would think the whole current bunch to be witches and warlocks. I don't know if they would holler "Tea Party" or CHARGE!! |
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« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 12:56:54 AM by blackeyedpeas »
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2005, 01:04:06 AM » |
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Mr. Bepster,
A tea party might be a good thing...
Sister Reba, I'm laughing, thinking about what a shock it would be for the founders to see what has become of Congress. I'm wondering if they would think the whole current bunch to be witches. I don't know if they would holler "Tea Party" or CHARGE!! I believe that some of them would be saying "I told you so" just before they said "Tea Party" or CHARGE! Reading through many of the quotes from the founding fathers I have seen where several of them foresaw the denigration of the Constitution by both the Judicial system as well as by Congress. As much work as they put into it they also knew the character of man could and would destroy it. That was the reason for attempting to place safeguards such as the right to bare arms in place so that the average citizen could protect themselves against a tyrannical government. |
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Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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nChrist
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« Reply #89 on: July 14, 2005, 02:08:28 AM » |
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Pastor Roger Said:
I believe that some of them would be saying "I told you so" just before they said "Tea Party" or CHARGE!
Reading through many of the quotes from the founding fathers I have seen where several of them foresaw the denigration of the Constitution by both the Judicial system as well as by Congress. As much work as they put into it they also knew the character of man could and would destroy it. That was the reason for attempting to place safeguards such as the right to bare arms in place so that the average citizen could protect themselves against a tyrannical government. Brother Roger, You are completely correct. I remember reading many lengthy papers from the founders about their fears for the future. Power of the Judicial Branch was only one of their fears. Another of the major issues I'm reflecting on now deals with the relationship between the Federal Government and the States. The founders intended the Federal Government to be the servant of the States and never the other way around. Well, the other way around is here and has been here for a long time. The rights reserved for the States have been removed, and a large percentage of everything done in our current government is Unconstitutional!!It's no longer a matter of comparisons with what the founders intended, rather of opposites in many cases. Freedom of religion would be one such issue. I give thanks for the religious freedoms we have left, and I know that we must STAND UP AND KEEP THEM!!Love In Christ, Tom Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. |
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