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Author Topic: animals and souls  (Read 6300 times)
bravo1zero
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« on: July 20, 2004, 11:43:56 PM »

Oh, oh..
 I have been researching this subject recently...

 I say they DO. God is definately more complex than we can imagine...

 OTHER than for our enjoyment...
 Why do YOU believe yeah or nay...

 Ask yourself this...

 1. Why do they feel pain?
 2. Why do dogs dream?
 3. Why do animals show fear, and the need for self            preservation?
 4. How do animals sense good and bad people?

 OK..open fire...
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His_child
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2004, 01:27:19 AM »

I'll gladly be a card-carrying member of PETA when the acronomyn starts standing for People Eating Tasty Animals.  Grin
IOW, I am in no way an animal rights activist.

However, I do believe that animals have souls. I also believe that their souls will enter Heaven when they die.

Quote
1. Why do they feel pain?

Do you mean physical or emotional?
Physical would be because they have a nervous system.
Emotional would be a different story.
Amimals that have been domesticated have learned to trust or not trust humans.

I have a 3 month old kitten who lives indoors. She and I play a lot. She knows that if she uses her claws I will swat her and then ignore her. She wants to be played with and she doesn't like the discomfort of a swat. She knows that she can trust me to play with her, pet her, feed her, give her fresh water and a clean kitty box.

There are two kittens that are about the same age as my kitten. They live outdoors. They are wild. When I come outside, they run in fear of the unknown. They've never learned to trust me. All they know about my house is that its a great place to catch mice and gophers and that there is food and water for them. They don't know that I set out the food and water for them. However, I'm guessing they are litter mates, they seem to trust each other and they defend each other.

BTW- Infants inutereo feel physical pain also.

Quote
2. Why do dogs dream?

The same reason why newborn babies and adults dream. All creatures dream because of brain wave activity. The brain does not cease to function simply because we are asleep. When our brain stops functioning, we die.

Quote
3. Why do animals show fear, and the need for self  preservation?

God-given instincts.
At birth, humans rely heavily on instinct too.

Quote
4. How do animals sense good and bad people?

Excellent question, however, animals aren't always right about that.
My ex-inlaws were prejudiced. They owned a dog that only attacked African Americans. They didn't train the dog that way, but I'm sure the dog could sense the difference in the way they treated people of different skin colors. They lived in a neighborhood that was mostly African Americans. The dog didn't even wake them up when a couple of white guys came in one night and robbed them. That dog was wrong.

Back to the kitties in my yard. They sense that I'm bad. They sense that about all people. Those kitties have no reason to fear me at all. In fact, if they would trust me to befriend them, I would make their lives much better and safer by taking them to the vet and caring for them in other ways. But, they sense danger because I'm human. [/color]
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To Who I want my God to be.
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His_child
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2004, 02:01:28 AM »

I was browsing around CU and found this joke. I thought it was cute and would fit with this thread:

A newly discovered chapter in the Book of Genesis has provided the answer to "Where do pets come from?" Adam said, "Lord, when I was in the garden, you walked with me everyday. Now I do not see you anymore. I am lonesome here and it is difficult for me to remember how much you love me."
       
      And God said, "No problem! I will create a companion for you that will be with you forever and who will be a reflection of my love for you, so that you will love me even when you cannot see me. Regardless of how selfish or childish or unlovable you may be, this new companion will accept you as you are and will love you as I do, in spite of yourself."
       
      And God created a new animal to be a companion for Adam. And it was a good animal. And God was pleased. And the new animal was pleased to be with Adam and he wagged his tail. And Adam said, "Lord, I have already named all the animals in the Kingdom and I cannot think of a name for this new animal."
       
      And God said, "No problem! Because I have created this new animal to be a reflection of my love for you, his name will be a reflection of my own name, and you will call him DOG."
       
      And Dog lived with Adam and was a companion to him and loved him. And Adam was comforted. And God was pleased. And Dog was content and wagged his tail.
       
      After a while, it came to pass that Adam's guardian angel came to the Lord and said, "Lord, Adam has become filled with pride. He struts and preens like a peacock and he believes he is worthy of adoration. Dog has indeed taught him that he is loved, but perhaps too well."
       
      And the Lord said, "No problem! I will create for him a companion who will be with him forever and who will see him as he is. The companion will remind him of his limitations, so he will know that he is not always worthy of adoration."
       
      And God created CAT to be a companion to Adam. And Cat would not obey Adam. And when Adam gazed into Cat's eyes, he was reminded that he was not the supreme being. And Adam learned humility.
       
      And God was pleased.
      And Adam was greatly improved.
      And Dog was happy.
      And the Cat didn't give a hoot one way or the other.

http://jokes.christiansunite.com/

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I'm not following a God that's imagined.
Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
-  Who? by Peter Furler and Steve Taylor (Newsboys)
bravo1zero
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2004, 08:42:45 AM »

I agree with all the points. My point about dreams, pain, preservation and so on where to show God did not make these beings jus as a showpiece, but as a functioning life, with thoughts and physical feelings. Granted, there are species that are a little lacking in one of the above, ( I know a dog who maybe a bit deficit in one department), but God did state He created all things to glorify Him.
 
P.s.  I am a big fan of steak..
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Gracey
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2004, 03:08:12 PM »

Uhhhh, I hate to burst anyone's buble but, God created them for man (he gave Adam dominion over all the animals). In order to get into heaven one must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ... how does an animal do that? (Well, I suppose we really have no idea what an animal thinks about). Or, maybe that's only for humans....

I'd hate to think I'm eating something that someday I'm gonna find in heaven....

The dictionery defines soul as:

soul -The immaterial part of a person; the actuating cause of an individual life; A human being

It would be nice if some animals were in heaven (like our pets), and I suppose that when we get there, it will be too wonderful to worry about whether there's animals or not.

Gracey
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JudgeNot
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2004, 09:28:19 PM »

Gracy - I agree.  
God is an awesome God!  I have no doubt that in heaven pleasures will abound, and animals will be among those pleasures.  Will our very own pets be among those animals?
We care now, but will we care then???  I understand there are no tears in heaven.  Smiley

If we watch our P's and Q's, accept His love and grace, we'll all find out in the short-run, won't we!
 Smiley
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Reba
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2004, 10:38:12 PM »

Spirit = Conscience, fellowship, inter-knowledge


Soul = mind, will, emotions


Body = flesh, blood, bone


Animals have a soul . . . .
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Shammu
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2004, 10:51:34 PM »

Why should I fire away at you bravo1zero, I agree with you.
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bravo1zero
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2004, 11:40:08 PM »

The joke about Dog being a refelection of God in an earlier post is wonderful, and I think the Lord has spoken to me about something...
 Look at how Dogs are treated in most countries, especially Vietnam, China, the Phillipines, the mideast and most recently in Greece...

 I guess they really are a reflection of how God is perceived and treated nowadays by mankind.
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JudgeNot
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2004, 11:55:19 PM »

I love animals - and I have several deceased pets I would like to "pet" again; but I would like to see a scriptural reference where it says animals go to heaven.  I’ve seen plenty that refer to animals in heaven, but none stating they have a soul.  
Please, back-up with scripture:
Quote
Spirit = Conscience, fellowship, inter-knowledge
Soul = mind, will, emotions
Body = flesh, blood, bone
Animals have a soul . . . .
I'm not saying I agree or disagree - but I would like to see scriptural reference.
 Smiley
(I'm always open to learning!)
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His_child
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2004, 12:46:49 AM »

I’ve seen plenty that refer to animals in heaven, but none stating they have a soul.  
Please, back-up with scripture:
(I'm always open to learning!)

Please don't make me look up verses. I have a sunburn that fried my brain, I'm tired from work and I have had a bad hair day.

How did those animals get to Heaven?

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I'm not following a God that's imagined.
Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
-  Who? by Peter Furler and Steve Taylor (Newsboys)
2nd Timothy
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2004, 10:22:48 AM »

This is an interesting topic.   I don't feel it bears too much concern on our part, but it is interesting to ponder.

As for scriptural backing, I consider the following to address my thinking on it.

First, Genesis only speaks of man being made in Gods image.  Reba pointed out the soulish attributes.  One thing missing however, (IMO), is eternity of being.  God is eternal, so it makes sense to say being made in his image includes this characteristic in our soulish or spiritual being.   Animals might be too, but I can't name a verse that says where they were made in his image to include eternity of being or "living" souls.

Secondly, chapter two goes to great lengths in showing how man became a living soul.  God breathed into his mouth the breath of Life, and MAN became a living soul.   I suppose one could argue that he did this for the animals also, but again the focus was on man here so who knows.   I personally don't think animals have a LIVING soul in the sense that man does, but I digress.

So if animals go to heaven, can we assume some might go to hell?   Grin   I do question whether my dog is a christian or not.....lol   She deffinately lives a fleshy existance at best.   Cheesy   Not to mention the dissobediance and deception after coveting and stealing my dinner remnants.  


OK, have to include this one my grandfather used to tell us kids....
You know why dogs go around smelling each others tails don't you?  One day they were all in church when a fire broke out. They were in such a hurry to get out of the building, that they didn't have time to stop at the tail rack and get their own tail, so they just grabbed the first tail they saw and ran.  Ever since then, they go around smelling every dogs tail they meet to see if its there own.    Cool



Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2004, 10:34:48 AM »

His_Child asks:
Quote
How did those animals get to Heaven?

His_Child is trying to trap me. He-he-he!   Wink

I also believe there will be beautiful flowers and trees and green grass in heaven.  So – do I think trees go to heaven when they die?  
Not hardly!    Cheesy  Cheesy
Just my theory mind you, but I believe the animals in heaven will be heavenly animals – created there by God for our enjoyment.
 Smiley

2ndT counters:
Quote
So if animals go to heaven, can we assume some might go to hell?    I do question whether my dog is a christian or not.....lol  She deffinately lives a fleshy existance at best.    Not to mention the dissobediance and deception after coveting and stealing my dinner remnants.  
 LOL Tim!!!  Cheesy  Cheesy  Cheesy
I have a hard time picturing the "Bad Bunny Burning" in hell!
 Cheesy  Cheesy  Cheesy

You guys are great - what a fun debate!
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Harper
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2004, 03:42:10 PM »

*pops in*

Ok, to argue this you I'm going to go back and use some details of the old Hebrew and Greek bibles.

There's a Hebrew word "nephesh" that is the part of a living thing's being that goes on after death. It shows up in Genesis a few times, but most bibles don't have it nowadays, though my KJV bible has a footnote on it. Anyway, here's an example:

-- Genesis 1:30 To every animal of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which is a living soul, every green plant is given for food.

"Nephesh" also is used when Genesis refers to the creation of man in Genesis 2:7, and the it's that same word for "soul" David refers to in Psalms 16:10 when he says "You will not abandon my soul to sheol."
The soul and spirit are by a lot of people looked upon as the same thing, but according to the Bible they're close but seperate.

--Hebrews 4:12: The word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to DIVIDING soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Kay, so there's also Ruwach which figuratively is, 'breath of life'. All living creatures have it... when God takes the ruwach away, living things die (Psalms 104:29-30). The soul, nephesh, can't exist in this plane without ruwach, the 'lower' spirit, which probably means to our instincts, and learning abilities, and memories. But humans are different because we have "neshamah-ruwach" spirit, or spirit. Neshamah is the Hebrew word for "vital breath" that God breathed into Adam's nostrils. It's only used about humans. In the Greek in the New Testament, "pneuma" is used for neshamah, setting it apart from "pseuche", which refers to the soul. Greek doesn't have a word for ruwach probably because it's part of the pseuche along with nephesh, since both animals and humans have.

BASICALLY:

Plant: body + life (chay/zoe).

Animal = body + life (chay/zoe) + pseuche[soul/personality (nephesh) + "low" spirit/mind (ruwach)].

Human = body + life (chay/zoe) + pseuche[soul/personality (nephesh) + "low" spirit/mind (ruwach)] + "high" Spirit (neshamah/pneuma).

So we humans are special because with that "high spirit": we can have religion, we can sin, etc etc. Is that the required piece that gets us into heaven? Maybe. But I think that animals, because they have souls, go to heaven.  Apparently they don't go to hell because they don't have the capacity to sin and have faith in God.

Long story short: Yes, animals have souls. No, we don't know if they're in heaven, but we can make a guess.

Why should God make "heavenly animals" if he can use the ones that were on earth?

No, this isn't all from memory, lol. I'll give you some links with additional info if you want.

I hope this was coherent. Tongue
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 03:43:56 PM by Harper » Logged
JudgeNot
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2004, 04:41:42 PM »

Harper - WELCOME to C-Unite.
Please!  "POP IN" anytime.  Smiley

I'm not smart enough to argue with much of what you've posted.  Grin

Quote
Why should God make "heavenly animals" if he can use the ones that were on earth?
Uh... cuz the lions, here, eat the sheep, here?  Grin  Okay, okay - I'm sure God has the power to make a lion a vegan during the trip to heaven. (Ignore my silly comment.)  Smiley

Quote
I hope this was coherent.
Plenty coherent!

You didn't answer 2nd T's question - do you think "Bad Bunnies will burn??"   Grin  Grin  (You really don't have to answer that! Ignore that sill question.)  Smiley  

REAL question:  So by animals being the chay/zoe nephesh ruwach they "just know" God is God and aren't given the "burden" of choice in the matter?
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