Does Election necessarily mean Rejection?

[Petro]

From: Daily Inspirational

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SALVATION AND THE HUMAN WILL





Scripture Reading:  Rom 9:15-16; John 1:12-13; 3:16







Dwight Lyman Moody once said that "the whosoever wills are the elect, and whosoever won'ts are the non-elect!"  This is certainly true.  The human will does play an important part in personal salvation.  But the problem which ultimately must be faced when one deals with the sovereignty of God must touch on this matter of what place man's will plays--if any.

Now there are two extremes to avoid.  One is that since God is sovereign, and since man cannot save himself at all, then man has no part at all in salvation.  That is, God will save him without any action on his part.  The other extreme is that God cannot and will not save anyone unless he is willing to be saved.

In between these extremes we believe the truth lies.  It is true that the sinner is "dead in trespasses and sins"  therefore cannot, of himself, take one step toward God and salvation.  It is also true that God has given man a will, and He respects that will.  Yet due to the fact that the depravity of the human nature has also crippled the will, God must first move and work in the sinner to make him willing to be saved!  This is what Christ meant when He said, "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44).  This is also what is meant in John 1:12-13:  "But as many as received Him (Christ),  to them gave He power (authority) to become the sons of God (children of God), even to them that believe on His name; which were born, not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."  Therefore, as Romans 9:16 states, "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."





Hence, how beautiful it all works out.  Of my own will, I did not want God or His salvation (Christ).  But He wooed me and drew me with love and power and gave me the willingness to receive Christ into my life!  Bless the Lord, O my soul!

    "I've found a Friend, oh such a Friend!
    He loved me ere I knew Him;
    He drew me with the cords of love,
    And thus He bound me to Him."  (J.G.    Small)

Pastor Paul Hume

Posted By Brother Love

Bro Love,

I love both DL Moody, and CH Spurgeon, and I know both men were really used of God, to expound the riches of His Word to others.

And what you have posted is an excellent piece, bringing out the very truth of this matter.

As I pointed out in one of other posts herein,  "trusting" is soemthing the natural man is able to do without commiting himself, while "believing" is done with commitment, both words are very similar and close in their definitioin, but different in as much as they perfectly convey the mind of the person doing them.

There were present at that season some that told Jesus of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them,

[color=RedSuppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.  (Lk 13:2-3)

God desires that sinners confess and repent of their sins, this cannot be done, unless first a sinner knows and understands, the seriousness of his condition, and the grave eternal consequences should he die in this condition.

Trust in Jesus which is a work of God in drawing that person to Christ, and a perfect understanding of the fact one will perish eternally unless he repents and confess his sin of unbelief, will lead a truly repent soul to believe with commitment in God's living Word.

Only then and there, can God work to accomplish that which He has promised, notice what God says he will do;

Eze 36
23  And [b ]I will [/b] sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and [b ]will[/b] bring you into your own land.
25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29  I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30  And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

Note that fourteen times, God uses the words I shall or I will, in these 6 verses.

There is no sense in taking the scriptures out of context, repentance and confession comes first, because of what the person believes in his heart to be true, note;

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  (Rom 10:10)

Imagine what a monstrosity God would make if he saved men before they repented and confessed.

Hebrews 6:4-6, makes it clear, the men who are brought to an understanding of the gosple can turn their backs on it, never to be brought backto repentance again,

and unfortunately,

Prophesing christians claim, that the saved can lose their salvation, and this is why, because they believe, they are saved, before they repented, confessed and believed; so logically they conclude, I can lose my salvation, because I believed.

It is a carnal, evil and blasphemous teaching, from the pit.. designed by Satan to confuse those whom, seek forgiveness of sin, on their ability and merits.



Blessings,

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro

Prophesing christians claim, that the saved can lose their salvation, and this is why, because they believe, they are saved, before they repented, confessed and believed; so logically they conclude, I can lose my salvation, because I believed.

It is a carnal, evil and blasphemous teaching, from the pit.. designed by Satan to confuse those whom, seek forgiveness of sin, on their ability and merits.

This is a good point. John Wesley in his work The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace. Made it clear that because salvation was by our freewill it was also ours to freely lose. His idea NOT mine.

*The Calvinists hold, (1.) God has absolutely decreed, from all eternity, to save such and such persons, and no others; and that Christ died for these, and none else. The Arminians hold, God has decreed, from all eternity, touching all that have the written word, "He that believeth shall be saved: He that believeth not, shall be condemned:" And in order to this, "Christ died for all, all that were dead in trespasses and sins;" that is, for every child of Adam, since "in Adam all died."
*The Calvinists hold, Secondly, that the saving grace of God is absolutely irresistible; that no man is any more able to resist it, than to resist the stroke of lightning. The Arminians hold, that although there may be some moments wherein the grace of God acts irresistibly, yet, in general, any man may resist, and that to his eternal ruin, the grace whereby it was the will of God he should have been eternally saved.  
*The Calvinists hold, Thirdly, that a true believer in Christ cannot possibly fall from grace. The Arminians hold, that a true believer may "make shipwreck of faith and a good conscience;" that he may fall, not only foully, but finally, so as to perish for ever.  
* Indeed, the two latter points, irresistible grace and infallible perseverance, are the natural consequence of the former, of the unconditional decree. For if God has eternally and absolutely decreed to save such and such persons, it follows, both that they cannot resist his saving grace, (else they might miss of salvation,) and that they cannot finally fall from that grace which they cannot resist. So that, in effect, the three questions come into one, "Is predestination absolute or conditional?" The Arminians believe, it is conditional; the Calvinists, that it is absolute.

[Petro]

Petro

Prophesing christians claim, that the saved can lose their salvation, and this is why, because they believe, they are saved, before they repented, confessed and believed; so logically they conclude, I can lose my salvation, because I believed.

It is a carnal, evil and blasphemous teaching, from the pit.. designed by Satan to confuse those whom, seek forgiveness of sin, on their ability and merits.

This is a good point. John Wesley in his work The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace. Made it clear that because salvation was by our freewill it was also ours to freely lose. His idea NOT mine.

*The Calvinists hold, (1.) God has absolutely decreed, from all eternity, to save such and such persons, and no others; and that Christ died for these, and none else. The Arminians hold, God has decreed, from all eternity, touching all that have the written word, "He that believeth shall be saved: He that believeth not, shall be condemned:" And in order to this, "Christ died for all, all that were dead in trespasses and sins;" that is, for every child of Adam, since "in Adam all died."
*The Calvinists hold, Secondly, that the saving grace of God is absolutely irresistible; that no man is any more able to resist it, than to resist the stroke of lightning. The Arminians hold, that although there may be some moments wherein the grace of God acts irresistibly, yet, in general, any man may resist, and that to his eternal ruin, the grace whereby it was the will of God he should have been eternally saved.  
*The Calvinists hold, Thirdly, that a true believer in Christ cannot possibly fall from grace. The Arminians hold, that a true believer may "make shipwreck of faith and a good conscience;" that he may fall, not only foully, but finally, so as to perish for ever.  
* Indeed, the two latter points, irresistible grace and infallible perseverance, are the natural consequence of the former, of the unconditional decree. For if God has eternally and absolutely decreed to save such and such persons, it follows, both that they cannot resist his saving grace, (else they might miss of salvation,) and that they cannot finally fall from that grace which they cannot resist. So that, in effect, the three questions come into one, "Is predestination absolute or conditional?" The Arminians believe, it is conditional; the Calvinists, that it is absolute.

Left Coats,

I wouldn't put alot of stock in what John Wesley said, he was a man God used, to preach the gosple, and God can use the saved and the unsaved for this end, because it is the power of Gods word which accomplishes what He has purposed in His heart to do.

What is interesting. is that John Wesley, and his brother were not saved  until after having returned to England from their trip to the US, of course Wesleyans and Methodists refute this very point, but in the writings of George Whitfield and others, one will find how they ministered the word more perfectly to these young men, and they were able to grasp the true teaching of Gods word.

As for the Calvin istic Doictriners, these were set for the by the Westminister Council, one need to familiarize themselves with them and consider the very word of God, to see, if the teaching is not according to the scriptures.

Thanks for your information.


Blessings,

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro
I found it somewhat interesting that we both replied to Brother Love at almost the same time. I was just a few minutes before you.
I am glad your red highlight didn’t work. I’m red green color blind.
May God Richly Bless You

[Petro]

Petro
I found it somewhat interesting that we both replied to Brother Love at almost the same time. I was just a few minutes before you.
I am glad your red highlight didn’t work. I’m red green color blind.
May God Richly Bless You

Left Coast,

Yes I see, your post #74, you ask?

The question I ask over and over, How Can A Baby Make Such A Freewill Decision? How Can Those That Have Never Heard Of Christ Come To Him?
The answer I have received is, “I cannot know.”

I have taken the liberty to fill in your answer to your own question.

And I did it, because you won't.

Since you cannot know the heart of people nor babies as God does, the answer to this question you ask, you, are unable to answer.

Notice;

Jesus"s own Words;

Mat 13
15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Romans 10, again;

9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Belief in the things of God has to do with the heart, it is not a matter of understanding with a new heart, it is understanding with the old stony heart.

This is clear here, at this exhortation; to Israel;

Heb 4
7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8  For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

And if you have a problem with this verse how about;

2 Cor 3
4  And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13  And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

You can see, that until this day the scripture says to us, the veil is upon the hearts of unbelieveing jews, which is removed and done away with, when their hearts turn to the Lord.

So clearly, the veil is representative unbelief  (they are blind to use another word), and when belief comes, the veil is removed from their heart, the new spirit and new heart come afterwards, not before as you would have to believe.

Blessings,  
Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro
It was not a question to myself. Why is it so hard for you to understand what I say?
I do not believe in the freewill gospel. And so the question was directed to those who believe that salvation is based on our freewill decision.
People understand that a baby cannot make a freewill decision, so they either have to make something up or they answer as you did.
Yours was the wrong answer. I would give you my answer but you think I’m totally lost so I’ll give you Spurgeon.
 
That this is possible is proved from Scripture instances. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. We read of Jeremiah also, that the same had occurred to him; and of Samuel we find that while yet a babe the Lord called him. We believe, therefore, that even before the intellect can work, God, who worketh not by the will of man, nor by the blood, but by the mysterious agency of his Holy Spirit, creates the infant soul a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then it enters into the “rest which remaineth for the people of God.” By election, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way. If we could not suppose that God’s justice must be infringed, or that his plan of salvation must be altered to suit their cases, then we should be in doubt; but we can see with the same appliances, by the same plan, on precisely the same grounds, and through the same agencies, the infant soul can behold the Saviour’s face in glory everlasting, and therefore we are at ease upon the matter.
From the sermon, “Infant Salvation”.
The only way anyone can understand with the heart is if God gives them a new heart.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Our hearts are corrupt and will deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 10 is explained by Proverbs 16:1 I give you both verses:

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

God gives us many commandments we cannot do on our own. For instance:

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

We can’t circumcise our heart. So God says He will.

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And in recognition of this the psalmist cries out:

Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psalms 119:36  Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
Psalms 119:80  Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.
Psalms 141:4  Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.

On second Corinthians go up to verse 3, you didn’t include it.

2 Corinthians 3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2 Corinthians 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2 Corinthians 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

 What is the ‘it’? It is the heart. When the heart is turned to the Lord and that can only be done by Gods Action. (Ezekiel 11:19)
The veil represent the separation between God and Man. Go back to the old testament. Only the High priest could go past the veil in the temple.
Jesus is our High Priest when he went to the cross the veil was ripped in two. Because He came there is no longer a separation between man and God. Christ is the mediator.

2 Corinthians 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

It will only turn when God changes it. Covered this lots of times. Why can’t you see this simple truth?

Proverbs 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
LC

[Petro]

Petro
It was not a question to myself. Why is it so hard for you to understand what I say?
I do not believe in the freewill gospel. And so the question was directed to those who believe that salvation is based on our freewill decision.
People understand that a baby cannot make a freewill decision, so they either have to make something up or they answer as you did.
Yours was the wrong answer. I would give you my answer but you think I’m totally lost so I’ll give you Spurgeon.

left coast,  Instead of picking and choosing the portuions of Spurgeons message on the subject, why don't you post the site, or the entire message, that we might see it and get it directly from him, instead you trying to expound it to us.

If there is anything that is most irritating is to have one i ndividual preach a message and then having someone else expounding it as thou, we are unable to read and understand what the preacher said, if you post it then we can compare the spiritual with spiritual and see, what Spurgeon was teaching, and what it was he wanted to say.

Freewill Gospel, please define it.

If it is like "freewill offering" or "voluntary offering", I would say anyone that believes in it, is believing another gosple.

I find that people that quote solid preachers of the word leave out or emphasize those portions which agree only with their theology.

You can't speak for the what where and when people communicate from the heart with God, because you are a mere man, like everyone else, and prone to error in your ability to understand and discern truth, case in point is your teaching salvation precedes belief in God, this is clearerly unbiblical.

And I suggest, it is you whose is blind to this error, because of your doctrine.

Lets take a look at Spurgeons message, you keep quoting out of.

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro I hope this can help.
You can find this information and more at this site.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.htm
James (Jacob) Arminius (1560-1609)
was a Dutch theologian who studied, taught, and eventually broke with Calvinism. He was particularly at odds with John Calvin's emphasis on unconditional election and irresistible grace. The Synod of Dort (1618-19) strongly reaffirmed ultra-Calvinism in reaction to Arminius' growing influence. As a result, hundreds of Arminians -- also known as Remonstrants -- were removed from their pulpits. But Arminianism was not to be conquered. Its strong emphasis on free-will, salvation for all, and resistible grace, continued to be influential, finding perhaps its strongest proponent in John Wesley.

The most popular gospel being taught today is this gospel of Jacobus Arminius.
The idea is Christ paid for everybody’s sin all you have to do is believe on Christ and accept His free gift. You can refuse or you can accept. It is your freewill choice. There are many variations. Some add you must confess with the lips. Others require the “sinners prayer”. There are other variations but it boils down to, your salvation being dependent on you accepting Christ entirely by your decision.

This site explains the conflict between Arminianism and Calvinism.
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gvcc/theology_notes/Calvin_and_Arminius.html  

Arminianism is flawed by a serious contradiction: on the one hand it affirms predestination and grace, while on the other hand denying it or gutting it of any real significance by asserting that it is conditional upon man's free will. The theologian Otto Heick describes Arminianism as an oxymoron, an "absolute conditionalism":

 
Here is a little more information:
http://www.modernreformation.org/mr92/mayjun/mr9203arminius.html
Do the Differences Between Arminians and Calvinists Matter Today?
Many argue that the differences between Calvinists and Arminians no longer matter. After all, some argue, Arminius lived 400 years ago. Are his views still important and influential? The answer to that question must be a resounding yes. Armininism is very influential in evangelical and Pentecostal circles today. Indeed Arminianism today usually goes much further in emphasizing free will than Arminius did or would ever have approved of doing.

From the same website as above.
Interview
J.I. Packer on Unconditional Election
Isn't foreknowledge the basis of election? Didn't God choose us because he looked down into the future and foresaw that we would believe in him?
He foreknew us all right, but he foreknew us as we are by nature, that is, he foreknew us as folk who wouldn't respond to him unless he first changed our heart, so he chose us to have our hearts changed. But it's all his initiative, all his sovereignty first to last.

And more
This doctrine of election is a matter for worship rather than for debate and argument and it is only human pride, incidentally, that keeps people debating and arguing about it because deep down within us we want to be able to say, "Well, I saved myself at one point anyway. I did contribute something." The Christian can't say that, however. God has humbled him beyond that point, but that humility is part of his happiness actually.

You might want to listen to some of  the messages of Dr. Donald Barnhouse. You will find them here. http://www.accradio.com/Barnhouse/Programs.htm I recommend the following message. Broadcast for December 22, 2002

Another site with good lessons http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk/articles/2000/12/do_you_need_to_be_born_again.htm
Below is a portion of the lesson:
DO YOU NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN?
by Dr. O. Palmer Robertson

Think for a moment about your first birth. What did you do to cause yourself to be born the first time? What part did you play in causing yourself to be conceived in your mother's womb?
You did absolutely nothing! Like every other person who has ever lived, you did absolutely nothing to cause your first birth. No person who has ever lived on this earth has caused himself to be conceived in his mother's womb, or be born of her. It is a complete impossibility.
The same principle is at work every time someone is "born again." Most people totally misunderstand this teaching of Jesus. They think Jesus is telling Nicodemus what he must do if he decides that he wants to be born again. They conclude that Jesus teaches that if a person believes in Him, then he will be born again.
But that understanding of Jesus' words is totally wrong. Jesus does not tell this man what he must do to be born again. For Jesus knew that a person can do nothing to cause himself to be born again. This fact is plainly taught in one of the first verses of John's gospel, which says that the children of God were "born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God" (John 1:13). The teaching is plain. People are not born again to be children of God by human decision. Instead, it is of God and altogether of God that a person is born from heaven to be a child of God.

I have given you some places to check out what I believe. There are more. I thought I wouldn’t be able to share Spurgeon’s sermon on Infant Salvation with you. It is in my personal library. But I did a search on the title and found this, http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm
Check it out yourself. May God give you vision.

[Petro]

Left Coast,

The more you keep talking, the more left of biblical teaching you go.

I started reading this little excerpt you posted, and imediately thought of Nicodemus.  When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus He, said to Him;

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


You said, at reply #82

Think for a moment about your first birth. What did you do to cause yourself to be born the first time? What part did you play in causing yourself to be conceived in your mother's womb?
You did absolutely nothing! Like every other person who has ever lived, you did absolutely nothing to cause your first birth. No person who has ever lived on this earth has caused himself to be conceived in his mother's womb, or be born of her. It is a complete impossibility.

When Nicodemus heard this he asked Jesus;  " How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

What you ignore is that Nicodemus was a live human being, when Jesus was speaking to him.  So the likening point of being born again, is given by Jesus, listen to the  answer;

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This means clearly, you can't know when this occurs, just as you "cannot tell" where the wind goes or comes, but can only "hear" it.

Then Jesus explains to Nicodemus, what he is unable to grasp;

Read this carefully;

10  Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(Jhn 3)

Now put this together with, Jesus words at:

Jhn 6
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:[/b] and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jhn 6:37-40)

Verse 40, destroys your theory;  everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him (Jesus), may have everlasting life.

These people who attain eternal life came to Jesus because they are given by the Father to Jesus to obtain it;[/b] and they obtain it after they are received by the Son, of the Father, not before.

Why??

Because Jesus the second Adam is a Life Giving Spirit,

As it is written, ....The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Cor 15:45)

Note; that when people believe the word of God, they go to the Father, who gives them to the Son, to be saved, and  He says,

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish (Jhn 10:28)

The Bible teaches clearly, that men must repent and confess, and this comes about only because it is given them to believe the word of God first for Jesus sake (Phil1:29), when they obey, God the Father gives these to the Son to be given the gift of Eternal Life, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

This modern teaching which you embrace, is the reason why you believe this nonsense, that God Saves men first and then they believe, it is just another form of teaching, (actually it is an extended teaching of PelagianISM), to distort the true gosple.

Armenianism is exaclty that a modified version of Pelagianism, but we are aware of the wily ways of the evil one who, has always has had amongest Gods people false apostles, deceitful workers, who transform themselves into teachers of of the Gosple of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

And this is the result of these teachings, which you believe......, and seek to teach.



Case Closed,

I will be happy to look thru, the rest of the info, you submitted
and comment on it, but don't hold your breath.


Petro
 

[Petro]

Left Coast,

I have read all of the info you have submitted, You have misquoted CH Spurgeon, as I had suspected.

Everything Spurgeon said concenring Infant Salvation was premised by this statement;

  On what ground, then, do we believe the child to be saved? We believe it to be as lost on the rest of mankind, and as truly condemned by the sentence which said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." It is saved because it is elect. In the compass of election, in the Lamb's Book of Life, we believe there shall be found written millions of souls who are only shown on earth, and then stretch their wings for heaven. They are saved, too, because they were redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. He who shed his blood for all his people, bought them with the same price with which he redeemed their parents, and therefore are they saved because Christ was sponsor for them, and suffered in their room and stead. They are saved, again not without regeneration, for, "except a man"—the text does not mean an adult man but a person, a being of the human race—"except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." No doubt, in some mysterious manner the Spirit of God regenerates the infant soul, and it enters into glory made meet to be a partaker of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Just as I had been trying to communicate to you.

Salavation is Gods business, noone is able to search the depths of this matter and understand the working of it, we only understand what little God has chosen to share with us.

He never consulted human flesh in order to make his plan of salvation, it was purely formulated the scriptures tell us,

According to the council of His own will, that He might be glorifed,.................... and that is it.

While understanding the correct teaching and embracing the Article of Conditional Election in the Armenian camp, that;

"Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit."

Since it is clear this is your position, and you are merely presenting ArminianISM in a repackaged form, it can only be done by twisting the Calvinst position, which is exactly what you are attemptibng to do, herein.

You do not understand the Calvinists position on "Unconditional Election" nor "Foreknowledge", you even quote a person, who adds a certain common misunderstanding of this position claiming it is inherent in the Calvinst position.  

But it only shows your ignorance of what the acronym "U" stands for, in the TULIP.

You said:

From the same website as above.
Interview
J.I. Packer on Unconditional Election

Isn't foreknowledge the basis of election? Didn't God choose us because he looked down into the future and foresaw that we would believe in him?

He foreknew us all right, but he foreknew us as we are by nature, that is, he foreknew us as folk who wouldn't respond to him unless he first changed our heart, so he chose us to have our hearts changed. But it's all his initiative, all his sovereignty first to last

The last sentence made by this man, is in answer to the second question he asks, and this shows that he does not understand the nature of GRACE nor the basis of FOREKNOWLEDGE, for if he did, he would never make such an assumption; and, you have swallowed this statement as the gosple truth, hook, line and sinker.

Point #1, Your definition of "Unconditional Election" is errouneous, and unbilical:
Nowhere in the scriptures does it teach, God has to look,  forward in TIME, to ascertain who will believe in Jesus, in order to ELECT them.
Foreknowledge is not defined anywhere near to your definition or this mans at all.
When the scriptures use the word "Foreknowledge" it is because God who has formulated His Plan, makes Him privy to the workings of it and who is involvedare known to Him, because He Planned it.
Allow me to give you scripture that makes the working of this more clearer for you;
And nowhere is this point driven home more forcefully, than in the words used to describe Gods determinate foreknowledg to accomplish His plan (the sacrificial death and resurrection of the Lamb of God,

NOTICE carefully that it was by His  , determinate council and foreknowledge to deliver Jesus Christ to the princes of this world who by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23, 1 Cor 2:
Election is the basis of Foreknowledge; it is not based on man choosing Christ, this is a great distortion not only of scripture but of the Calvinist teaching.  It comes from man trying to second guess the workings of God, using the wisdom of this world, which is nothing more than foolishness.

These scriptures make the point, clearly, and your preconceived notions prevent you from grasping this great truth;

Eph 1
 3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rom 8
28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

continued.......................

[Petro]

 to left coast continued..........

The Cannon of Dort, concluded:  "..that God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man nor anything man did or could do.. (Unconditional Election)

Conclusion, God chooses man, and it is not based on man choosing God first, He chose and predestinated men on the basis of His (vs 5 of Eph 1) will and good pleasure.


Point #2,  GRACE is defined as Favor (Gen 6:. God's free and underserved love that never quits (Eph 2:. It is the gift of God that comes as Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom 6:23).

This is why the Calvinist does not teach, that God looked forward in time, to determine who would have chosen Christ, this is simply nonsense, and to attribute this teaching to the Calvinst position of "Unconditional Election, is not true.

Conclusion, Is , IF the Election of God was determined by Him having to look forward in time, to determine whom He would Elect, then Grace is not grace as defined by the scriptures.  

Only by twisting what "Unconditional Election" is defined as can people, as yourself argue this point, the way you have..

It is clear to me, as I stated before, you are ignorant of what the gosple teaches concenring Election and Foreknowledge, you need to spend time unraveling this mess, in order to effectively witness to unbelievers, to continue in your distorted teachings is to lead people down the path of death, contrary to what Christians should be doing..and that is preaching the good news and unsearchable riches of Christ to an evil world..

God has given us His written Word that we might know the things that are freely given to us by Him, this includes knowledge and understanding of these things, the scriptures exhort the people of God to seek Him, if one lacks wisdom (Jas 1:5).  I perceive this is what you need to do.

And I will pray that you come to the truth on this matter.

Just because you do not understand certain components of the Gosple, doesn't mean you have to jump to conclusions,

God doesn't have to consult the left coast to establish His Will or establish his Purposes in the affairs of men.

You really need help, I say pray the Lord give you wisdom and understanding, in this matter.

Blessings,

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro
I don’t think you have a clue as to what I believe. Not a glimmer to what my doctrine is.

Since it is clear this is your position, and you are merely presenting ArminianISM in a repackaged form, it can only be done by twisting the Calvinst position, which is exactly what you are attemptibng to do, herein.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!ABSOLUTLY WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have said over and over again that it is 100% GODS WORK 100%.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAYS SALVATION IS BASED ON OUR BELIEVING. Right?
That doctrine of yours is a works gospel.
My reply #80

Petro
It was not a question to myself. Why is it so hard for you to understand what I say?
I do not believe in the freewill gospel. And so the question was directed to those who believe that salvation is based on our freewill decision.

Arminianism is belief in salvation by our freewill choice. Can’t you comprehend what I say? Why is it you can’t seem to understand. The reason I have spent so much time with you even as you twist my words, accuse me of misquoting, falsely tell me my gospel is a lie, is because you are so close to the truth. But close works with hand grenades not the gospel.
On post #33 you said,

We can know see, the work of God, in sinners produces belief in Christ, because that person has believed the Word that Christ has spoken from the Father (Deut 18:18-19), and this work is granted freely by God

It is indeed the work of God that produces belief and that work is salvation, is being reborn.
When we are born again, our heart is circumcised, changed if you will into a heart of flesh. IT IS GODS WORK! And the result of that work is the ability to keep Gods commandments, including the commandment to believe. THAT IS WHY BABIES ARE SAVED IN THE SELF SAME MANNER AS ALL PEOPLE ARE.
Have you ever really listened to what I have said.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Because God has given us a new heart we can keep Gods commandments

Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.  

You want verse 20 to come before verse 19.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

[Petro]

Petro
I don’t think you have a clue as to what I believe. Not a glimmer to what my doctrine is.

Since it is clear this is your position, and you are merely presenting ArminianISM in a repackaged form, it can only be done by twisting the Calvinst position, which is exactly what you are attemptibng to do, herein.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!ABSOLUTLY WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have said over and over again that it is 100% GODS WORK 100%.

Well that is strange, as you are solidly in agreement with this article of conditional election, conditional meaning, that;

1. God foreknew the elect, because he looked down thru the space of time, to see who would believe and elected them.

2. That no one can believe unless God saves them first.

Apparently this is news to you, but the fact is, this is the main tenet of ArmenianISM, which in reality is a repackaged form of PeliagianISM, though they deny it.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAYS SALVATION IS BASED ON OUR BELIEVING. Right?

   Your presupposition is false, I have never stated anything of the sort...........

That doctrine of yours is a works gospel.

You would never get the doctrine you ascribe to me, from any of my posts.

This shows you how carefully you have been, reading my replies...

My reply #80, Petro
It was not a question to myself. Why is it so hard for you to understand what I say?
I do not believe in the freewill gospel. And so the question was directed to those who believe that salvation is based on our freewill decision.

This is false also, if you believe God saves men before they believe, you believe in the "freewill gosple", because conditional salvation is based on man believing, before God can do the work you prescribe as being 100%, Gods work, but, in reality it is conditioned on mans response God saw, from before the world began, according to what you have been trying to teach.
 

Arminianism is belief in salvation by our freewill choice. Can’t you comprehend what I say? Why is it you can’t seem to understand. The reason I have spent so much time with you even as you twist my words, accuse me of misquoting, falsely tell me my gospel is a lie, is because you are so close to the truth. But close works with hand grenades not the gospel.

I suppose your implication here is that I am close, but you are right on; sorry bud, but the fact is I have heard your brand of teaching before, and it is nothing more than ArmenianISM, re wrapped in a way, that has some truth, intertwined with deception and half baked ideas, and usually, those that fall for these teachings, were saved under one teaching, and changed from one camp to the other.

It reminds me of Eph 4:14, and those who are always being tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Jesus, warned His people; "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Mat 24:4)

I say take heed.

On post #33 you said,"We can know see, the work of God, in sinners produces belief in Christ, because that person has believed the Word that Christ has spoken from the Father (Deut 18:18-19), and this work is granted freely by God"

It is indeed the work of God that produces belief and that work is salvation, is being reborn.
When we are born again, our heart is circumcised, changed if you will into a heart of flesh. IT IS GODS WORK! And the result of that work is the ability to keep Gods commandments, including the commandment to believe. THAT IS WHY BABIES ARE SAVED IN THE SELF SAME MANNER AS ALL PEOPLE ARE.
Have you ever really listened to what I have said.

Actually you are unable to discern the truths, that I exposed for you at these words;  The man that believes the words Jesus spoke believes God, and the man that believes God's words, which Jesus spoke in the name of the Father, has the Ftaher revealed to Him, by the Son, who upon granting confession and repentance of sin, gives that man to the Son, that the Son might give him, Eternal Life and the sealing or Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And it isn't until this occurs, that anyone can claim to having been saved.

Man believe Gods word first, then he repents and confesses his sin of unbelief, it is then that God gives the Faith to believe in Jesus, which man could never do on His own before this Work is done in this heart, only then, when that gift of Faith which is placed on Jesus, can Jesus do His portion which is to seal the individual with the Holy Spirit, which is the same as being baptized into the Body of Christ.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

This done in every man that repents and confesses his sin to God, in a broken and contrite old heart, broken and contrite is not speaking of the new heart being broken and contrite, note the difference, from what you want to teach.  

Because God has given us a new heart we can keep Gods commandments

This has northing to do with salvation, keeping His commandments follows, salvation.

Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.  

verse 20, follows verse 19, see the order..

You want verse 20 to come before verse 19.

??, you are confused , indeed..........you must think your only one that understand the order of scripture.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

None of this is done to be saved, but because one is saved.

So if you understood this you wouldn't even bring this verse up.

Note that is written to believers, or didn't you know this...


Blessings,

Petro

[Left Coast]

From your post Petro:

Well that is strange, as you are solidly in agreement with this article of conditional election, conditional meaning, that;

1. God foreknew the elect, because he looked down thru the space of time, to see who would believe and elected them.

When have I ever said such a thing? I have not and would not say anything of the sort. Please refer me to where I said such a thing.
Let me refresh your memory.
I said babies can become saved, even in the womb.
I said babies aren’t able to believe, repent, confess, or any other work you or someone else feel is necessary for salvation.
I said babies are saved in the same manner as all people are saved.
I said therefore believing, repenting, confessing, or what ever cannot give us salvation.
I said once God saves us by giving us a new heart then we will do those things.
At no time did I say

God foreknew the elect, because he looked down thru the space of time, to see who would believe and elected them.

One of the most frustrating things with you is you don’t seem to have a clue as to what I have said and yet we have exchanged posts many times.

2. That no one can believe unless God saves thyem first.

Apparently this is news to you, but the fact is, this is the main tenet of ArmenianISM, which in reality is a repackaged form of PeliagianISM, though they deny it.

Where did you ever get that idea?
Apparently you not only do not understand what I have been saying but you do not understand Arminianism either.
They believe just the opposite. They believe that Christ paid for the sins of every single person. And God has given that gift to mankind so all you have to do is by your freewill choice accept His gift.
That is their fundamental principle. It is not even remotely what you said, that no one can believe unless God saves them first. Where do you get this idea? They claim salvation is based on believing and confessing with the mouth. Sound familiar?

You can check this out here if you wish. http://calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/caatwog.htm#01

The "Five Points of Arminianism" included the following:
1.FREEWILL
Arminius believed that the fall of man was not total, maintaining that there was enough good left in man for him to will to accept Jesus Christ unto salvation.
2.CONDITIONAL-ELECTION
Arminius believed that election was based on the foreknowledge of God as to who would believe. Man's "act of faith" was seen as the "condition" or his being elected to eternal life, since God foresaw him exercising his "free will" in response to Jesus Christ.
3.UNIVERSAL-ATONEMENT
Arminius held that redemption was based on the fact that God loves everybody, that Christ died for everyone, and that the Father is not willing that any should perish. The death of Christ provided the grounds for God to save all men, but each must exercise his own "free will" in order to be saved.
4.OBSTRUCTABLE-GRACE
Arminius believed that since God wanted all men to be saved, He sent the Holy Spirit to "woo" all men to Christ, but since man has absolute "free will," he is able to resist God's will for his life. He believed that God's will to save all men can be frustrated by the finite will of man. He also taught that man exercises his own will first, and then is born again.
5.FALLING-FROM-GRACE
If man cannot be saved by God unless it is man's will to be saved, then man cannot continue in salvation unless he continues to will to be saved.

Look at point 2 God foreknew who would believe. Not that believing was a result of salvation, rather the opposite. Salvation was the result of believing.
My statement:

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAYS SALVATION IS BASED ON OUR BELIEVING. Right?

Your statement:

Your presupposition is false, I have never stated anything of the sort........…

I was prepared to reread your posts to check this but then I just read a few more lines down and you brought it up again:

The man that believes the words Jesus spoke believes God, and the man that believes God's words,

Do you even know what you believe?

Man believe Gods word first, then he repents and confesses his sin of unbelief, it is then that God gives the Faith to believe in Jesus, which man could never do on His own before this Work is done in this heart, only then whne that gift of Faith which is placed on Jesus, can Jesus do His portion which is to seal the individual with the Holy Spirit, which is the same as being baptized into the Body of Christ.

Believing is a work, confessing is a work, repenting is a work.
That is why I brought up Infant salvation. Infants can do none of these things, and yet they are saved too.
C.H. Spurgeon was a great man of God. But he was still just a man. It is a mystery HOW God changes a heart it is not a mystery that He does.
I said,

Because God has given us a new heart we can keep Gods commandments

You said,

This has northing to do with salvation, keeping His commandments follows, salvation.

I am glad you agree with me, because salvation happens when God gives us a new heart. One of Gods commandments is the commandment to believe.(1 John 3:23)
At the end you said:

None of this is done to be saved, but because one is saved.

This you said in reply to:

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

On this we also agree, finally.
I have said exactly this time and time again.
Of course I knew it was to believers. But according to you we must believe first before we can become saved. If this was true why would he mention this to the saved, wouldn’t they have already believed, according to you?  

[Left Coast]

Petro I forgot to add the Calvinist foundation from the same website as above:
http://calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/caatwog.htm#01
Those in the reformed tradition who answered the teachings of Arminius chose the word "TULIP" as an acrostic to summarize their answer to the Five Points of Arminianism":
1. "T" = TOTAL DEPRAVITY - The Calvinists believed that man is in absolute bondage to sin and Satan, unable to exercise his own will to trust in Jesus Christ without the help of God.
2. "U" = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - The Calvinists believed that foreknowledge is based upon the plan and purpose of God, and that election is not based upon the decision of man, but the "free will" of the Creator alone.
3. "L" = LIMITED ATONEMENT - The Calvinists believed that Jesus Christ died to save those who were given to Him by the Father in eternity past. In their view, all for whom Jesus died (the elect) will be saved, and all for whom He did not die (the non elect) will be lost.
4. "I" = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - The Calvinists believed that the Lord possesses irresistible grace that cannot be obstructed. They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If a totally depraved person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be impossible.
5. "P" = PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - The Calvinists believed that salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process. The saints will persevere because God will see to it that He will finish the work He has begun.

Notice point 4:
They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If a totally depraved person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be impossible.
And point 5:
salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process.

Nothing to do with the process, not believing, not confessing, not repenting, NOTHING.