Abortion: Right or Wrong?

[Willowbirch]

I think my position in this particular subject may have been misunderstood, and I would like to clarify myself.

Above all, I believe that God must be glorified in anything we do. Whatever decision we make, whatever plans we attempt to carry out, especially those involving a life that has been put under our care, we must do in the fear of God.

All parents, whether Christian or lost, have the holy responsibility of raising children that have been created in the image of God, who have been "fearfully and wonderfully made". I believe that these children, planned by God from before He created the world, begin their lives at a specific point in time, which is the moment of conception. A life is human because it exists, without restrictions as to whether or not it looks, thinks or functions exactly the way another, more developed human might.

Not all abortions are the fault of man's actions; I know women who have lost children through miscarriages, which is the natural abortion that cannot be blamed on any person. But if a woman consents to the death of her baby by unnatural abortion, I believe she has commited murder, along with whoever may have helped her perform this.

I do not know what I would do if my unborn child were deformed to such an extent that his life outside the womb would be governed by constant pain and misery, because I have never been faced with that situation in my own life. I dearly hope that I would be able to rest in the will of God without intervening. Whatever I decided, I would make it with much prayer and fear, along with my husband. There are times in the life of a Christian when they must fear, and I believe this would be one of those times. Not nervous, worried fear, but humility before God and a heart that can hear the voice of the Lord.

I am not here to offend anyone; if I hurt you, please forgive me, I'm a "mediator" and I try to see both sides of a problem without making fast decisions.

I do not disagree that truth must be upheld, and that it can both convict and set free. If we were to all "get along", to mend our differences and accept one another without regards to doctrines or opinions, that would be wonderful; but if in doing so we rejected truth, it would be a poor and deadly exchange. Iron sharpens iron; without friction, the blades would grow dull and useless.

Reba, in answer to your last post, I myself was under the impression that the general consensus on Broken was that she was "evil and unsaved". Perhaps I read things incorrectly, since you've protested against this idea and said it was false. You are not the only one who could have promoted the notion; I know that others have been very vehement on this thread, as this is a subject very dear to the human heart.

My personal view on Broken's posts: she does not uphold the abortion of children simply because they are "unwanted", or disfigured. Her concern, based on the experience of a loved one, is for babies so badly deformed that they will spend their lives in anguish. As I said, I cannot judge this theory, as I have never been in a situation where I had to choose between abortion and a life of terrible pain. This is an example of the debate between quality and quantity of life; it affects the elderly as well, or anyone in such a position that they would need to make this decision.

I believe that God can make something beautiful of our pain, and any trial we face on this earth is nothing compared to both the joy of Christ and the horror of an eternity outside His presence. But again, I cannot speak from my own experience.

~Joy

[Reba]

Willow,

Broken cares not that babies are murder she stated so. She also said she was going to remove some of her posts.

The way I see it  she is diverting the attention off her view of abortion by crying judgment. I don't fall for that game. That  is why I posted my posts. I have not called her evil nor mentioned her salvation. Now you  tell me has she told the truth?

[Psalm 119]

Ebia,

Your comments about cutting down a tree is comical.

I once stood in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic,and some Pro-abortion folks were out there too. A pro-lifer was standing under a tree, and some of the pro-abortion people were bemoaning because someone was standing on the trees roots, all the while, up to twenty little boys and girls were being torn limb to limb inside the Planned Parenthood clinic. Reminds me of Romans 1, they worship the creature rather than the Creator.

Who created the tree Ebia? It was the Creator who created every living thing,including little babies.

Ebia, did you know the word brephos is the greek word for child? The word is interchangeble for an unborn child, newborn child, and an older infant.

"When Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary , the babe (brephos) leaped in her womb....Luke 1:41

"Ye shall find the babe (brephos) in swaddling clothes lying in a manger....Luke 2:12,16

"And they brought unto Him also infants (brephos)that He would touch them." Luke 18:15

Brephos means to feed and nourish.

God does not differentiate between a babe in the womb and out of the womb.

Often God would speak about "visiting" a woman in regards to conception (as with Hannah).

Broken,

You state that you are being judged. You are rejecting the Word of the Lord.

Yes, God is your judge! So why are you judging the unborn? Why would you condemm a disabled child to a horrific death?

Psalm 119

[Broken]

Kristen,

I will also state a bible verse to back my position up too.  Thou shalt not kill.

I would point out that that prohibition has several qualifications placed upon it in the Bible.

I just think that it is so easy to some people to have an abortion because after all, what is a two celled organism worth?  What is the difference, we can just reduce it down to a measly animal right? It can't talk or think.  The difference is that it is a person, I believe at that point with a soul.

That depends on when you think life begins. It is amusing that while pro-lifers will vociferously state life begins at conception and vehemently oppose abortion, they do absolutely nothing to address the fact that stillborn babies may not be buried. They are just "disposed of" by a hospital - and it turns out they've been experimenting with their organs. Hypocrisy? Or just after the easy publicity?

Did you see the abortion pictures on that website. How can any one be Ok with that?

I agree, pro-lifers use shoddy tactics and evidently have their minds stuck in the gutter.

Have you ever held a baby, spent time with them?  I just find it impossible to dislike, abuse, or throw them away.

Yes, though babies for some unaccountable reason find me peculiar. As it happens, I prefer older children, because I like helping people to read.

Reba,

Abortion is murder for hire. The child is killed and the spirit of the mother is also killed.

I have lost at least 2 grandchhildren to the butchers. Their would be mother is lost someplace in the drug world.

Poor you  
I would feel rather more sympathy for you if you did not parade your victimhood to attempt to stifle debate. A symptom of our modern culture, I suppose.
Do you suppose that your daughter's abortions give you an extra entitlement here? Either something is right or something is wrong, it stands or falls on its own merits not because of emotional appeals.

I do believe i copied all my posts  please  where have i said you are evil unsaved?

Did you not read the scriptures you posted? Perhaps you should read before you pluck them out of the Bible.

[Broken]

Reba (again),

Broken cares not that babies are murder she stated so. She also said she was going to remove some of her posts.

And I did remove some of them. For reasons which I gave - or did you not see that?

The way I see it  she is diverting the attention off her view of abortion by crying judgment. I don't fall for that game. That  is why I posted my posts. I have not called her evil nor mentioned her salvation. Now you  tell me has she told the truth?

This is why you cannot be the Judge, you see. I am not diverting attention - just that yourself and Psalm appear not to have read my post giving my views - though Willowbirch has - and thus, really, what can I say?

Psalm,

You state that you are being judged. You are rejecting the Word of the Lord.

Your opinion.

Yes, God is your judge! So why are you judging the unborn? Why would you condemm a disabled child to a horrific death?

Why would you hate that child enough to condemn her to an horrific life?

God is love.

[Psalm 119]

Broken,

Yes God is love. But do you know there is another side to God? Hear the Word of the Lord!

"For you are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man." Psalm 5:4-6

"The Lord tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals; fire and brimestone and a burning wind shall be the portion of their cup."  Psalms 11:6

""But to the wicked God says: What right have you to declare My statutes, or take My covenant in your mouth, SEEING YOU HATE INSTRUCTION AND CAST MY WORDS BEHIND YOU? When you saw a thief, you consented with him, and have been a partaker with adulterers. You give your mouth to evil, and your tongue frames deceit" Psalms 50:16-19

"The bloodthirsty hate the blameless (babies?), but the uprightseek his well being" Proverbs 29:10

"He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them are an abomination to the Lord." Proverbs 17:15

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 14:12

"For whoever finds Me finds life, and obtains favor from the Lord, but he who sins against Me wrongs his own soul; ALL THOSE WHO HATE ME LOVE DEATH." Proverbs 8:35-36

"For the perverse person is an abomination to the Lord" Proverbs 3:32

Broken, I urge you again to repent of your sins. There is nothing hidden from God. He has known you  before your conception. He has your very breath in His hands. Fear God and give glory to Him!

Psalm 119

[Broken]

Yes God is love. But do you know there is another side to God? Hear the Word of the Lord!

So, it is justice and love (they are supposed to go together after all) which YOU call upon in support of extending suffering?

I ask again: Why do you hate an innocent child enough to put them through what is now thirty years of unrelieved agony?

""But to the wicked God says: What right have you to declare My statutes, or take My covenant in your mouth, SEEING YOU HATE INSTRUCTION AND CAST MY WORDS BEHIND YOU? When you saw a thief, you consented with him, and have been a partaker with adulterers. You give your mouth to evil, and your tongue frames deceit" Psalms 50:16-19

You're not God, even if you think you are.
My opinions on abortion are between me and God, as I have pointed out several times - not between me, you and God. I am no Catholic. And you are no priest.

"The bloodthirsty hate the blameless (babies?), but the uprightseek his well being" Proverbs 29:10

I ask again the question I asked above: Why do you hate children?

"He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them are an abomination to the Lord." Proverbs 17:15

Broken, I urge you again to repent of your sins. There is nothing hidden from God. He has known you  before your conception. He has your very breath in His hands. Fear God and give glory to Him!

You make all sorts of claims about me, further justifying, if justification were needed, why it is that humans cannot judge others. Firstly you deny that I am a Christian (to which I can only say, God rebuke you - you are not qualified to dispense salvation) and then you accuse me of lying, of having had an abortion, various things (false witness is a sin you know).

Those are not good messages: and not exactly calculated to make me have anything to do with your side of the argument. Add that to your constant misrepresenation of my position....lol. Do you love argument and bile?

[Reba]

Broken if your opinions on abortion are between you and God why do we know about them?

Poor you  
I would feel rather more sympathy for you if you did not parade your victimhood to attempt to stifle debate. A symptom of our modern culture, I suppose.
Do you suppose that your daughter's abortions give you an extra entitlement here? Either something is right or something is wrong, it stands or falls on its own merits not because of emotional appeals

 I agree "... something is right or something is wrong, it stands or falls on its own merits..." abortion is wrong... If one has emotions abortion discussions will bring them out. I do not attempt to stifle debate if i did i would not have returned posts.  I am not the victim the babies are.

 A different grandchild was still born at about 22-23 weeks so tiny to hold .. This little guy had a name ,Jamie, he would be 9 this April 17 so  sweet so tiny perfect ittybitty hands and feet my heart broke for  my baby girl working to deliever a baby we knew was to be still born. I also have 5 healthy loving wonderful grandkids!

 

I agree, pro-lifers use shoddy tactics and evidently have their minds stuck in the gutter.

How is it that  those who show the photos of the carnage are the ones with their minds in the gutter. They did not do the killing.

And I did remove some of them. For reasons which I gave - or did you not see that?

yup i saw it   if you had read my post you would have found this post of yours  read the very end.... ....

“ Who said I was meek and lowly? All I said was that I welcome your attacks. They make me feel alive again and it beats cutting myself up.

Frankly, I don't care if your grandchildren were aborted. It has nothing to do with me and if you cannot see that there is something wrong with your sense of ethics.

You know what is ironic about all this? If I got pregnant, unless there was something very seriously wrong with the foetus, I wouldn't even have an abortion. I just support people's right to decide for themselves and not be nannied by anyone.

EDIT: I'm going to stop here, before I say things I regret. I'll review this lot tomorrow, see if I should delete any of my posts.  “  

     

[ebia]

Ebia,

Your comments about cutting down a tree is comical.

I once stood in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic,and some Pro-abortion folks were out there too. A pro-lifer was standing under a tree, and some of the pro-abortion people were bemoaning because someone was standing on the trees roots, all the while, up to twenty little boys and girls were being torn limb to limb inside the Planned Parenthood clinic. Reminds me of Romans 1, they worship the creature rather than the Creator.

Who created the tree Ebia? It was the Creator who created every living thing,including little babies.

You've completely missed the point of "my" tree.  It was there to illustrate that you've got to demonstrate that unborn children are human, not "just" creations of God.

Ebia, did you know the word brephos is the greek word for child? The word is interchangeble for an unborn child, newborn child, and an older infant.

So?  Do you believe all the limitations of the greek language are directly inspired by God?

"When Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary , the babe (brephos) leaped in her womb....Luke 1:41

"Ye shall find the babe (brephos) in swaddling clothes lying in a manger....Luke 2:12,16

"And they brought unto Him also infants (brephos)that He would touch them." Luke 18:15

Brephos means to feed and nourish.

God does not differentiate between a babe in the womb and out of the womb.

All you've demonstrated is that the greek language can't differentiate (except by context).

Often God would speak about "visiting" a woman in regards to conception (as with Hannah).

So?

[ebia]

That depends on when you think life begins. It is amusing that while pro-lifers will vociferously state life begins at conception and vehemently oppose abortion, ...

Indeed it does.

Those who hold absolutely to the idea that life begins at fertilization have several questions they need to answer, but generally avoid:
1.  Why does God allow the vast majority of humans to die in the first couple of days of life?
2.  Why do you not oppose the contraceptive pill as vehemently as you oppose abortion?  (Since the contraceptive pill partly works in the same way as the "morning after" pill, by preventing implantation - which is simply an early form of abortion.)
3.  How do you explain how one human suddenly becomes two humans occasionally?

[Psalm 119]

Ebia,

It's a miracle! we actually both believe that the pill causes abortions.

You are totally correct, but unfortunately many Christians and even pro-lifers still have not gotten the message. A simple glance at a PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) would plainly give anyone the truth.

Sadly though, you and Broken still believe the lie that abortion is ok. I challenge you both again to go back and view the pictures of these little babies. What could possibly justify mutilating an innocent little baby? What would justify sticking a pair of scissors into the back of a baby's head and sucking it's brains out?

Psalms 119

[ebia]

Ebia,

It's a miracle! we actually both believe that the pill causes abortions.

You are totally correct, but unfortunately many Christians and even pro-lifers still have not gotten the message. A simple glance at a PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) would plainly give anyone the truth.

Sadly though, you and Broken still believe the lie that abortion is ok. I challenge you both again to go back and view the pictures of these little babies. What could possibly justify mutilating an innocent little baby? What would justify sticking a pair of scissors into the back of a baby's head and sucking it's brains out?

Just a minute.  Where did I say abortion was ok?  I don't believe it is, but I can see that the case is not as black and white as many make out.

You've addressed your position on my point 2, which is fair enough - many have not.   Are you going to address my other two points?

[Kris777]

Why would you hate that child enough to condemn her to an horrific life?

Are you not judgeing what it is to say what is and is not horrific?  We all suffer. So should I have been killed as a baby to save me from the trauma of this life?

Broken do you believe that it is our right to decide what child lives or dies?  Seeing that it seems that you support mercy killing do you believe that if an adult is suffering then another person has the right to end their suffering?

I believe that even though that person's life is different from ours what is abnormal for us is normal for them.  Can't we learn from the sick?  My friend had a 2 year old sister that died in June.  She suffered greatly. Do you believe that they should have euthenized her like a dog?  Where do you draw the line?  I can't remember what verse it is but at our church our pastor talked about our body and soul going hand and hand together so that is why I believe that a human is a human with a soul even if they are one cell or millions.  God made us in His own image and I believe that being as important as we are to God we should not reduce a baby killing down to a level to parellel that of a slautering of a pig.  I don't understand your justifications Broken and I never will.  It is God's call who lives or dies.

[ebia]

I can't remember what verse it is but at our church our pastor talked about our body and soul going hand and hand together so that is why I believe that a human is a human with a soul even if they are one cell or millions.

If a one cell embryo has a soul, where does the other soul come from if it splits into identical twins?

[Gracey]

The same place woman's soul came from when God created her out of Adam's rib?