The Church

[Layman Bairn]

Bronzesnake

One more thing and I'm jumping this ship.
You have this battery of blue stars by your name, a big flashing logo and a formidable name “BRONZESNAKE”. I’ve noticed that when ones disagree with you, it always comes down to “just stating the facts” “immature” “childish logic” “naïve” “wishy washy” “wrong my friend” and so on. I only have one little tiny gold star, but outside the cyber-church here, I am a 52-year-old father of two. I grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, I’ve been a Christian for 35 years (long time in the microwave). I am not childish nor do I lightly consider the Word or blithely arrive at what I call logic. Your attempts to quash by intimidation are ill spent... “my friend”.

Your recent statement about the servant not being greater than his master was pitifully misused.

Matt 10:24-25
24. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
(KJV)

Jesus was affirming to them (and us) that we will also suffer persecutions. He further illiterates His view of ‘masterhood’ in John 13:12-17


12. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13. Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do
(KJV)

Here is the definitive illustration of  the humility and care expected to operate in a “master” in the Kingdom of God

When you “state the facts”, as you call it about the absurdity of participatory church meetings you are sorely in error. The Plymouth Bretheren and The brethren assemblies (small “b” their choice) have been meeting in the way I have described for a couple of centuries. Their way of meeting grew directly out of the work and ministry of John Nelson Darby (laaaaaaaaats of blue stars). Many other groups meet this way and there is ample scriptural precedent for it whether your “facts” affirm it or not.

Anyway..lighten up…moderate but don’t castigate.

Bairn
 

[nChrist]

Brother Bairn,

The subject you chose to debate is the capacity of a person to serve as a teacher or pastor in a church service. That capacity obviously involves study, training, experience, schooling, time and/or some combination of the above. Everyone involved in this discussion, with the exception of two, agrees that some type of experience or training is necessary for a teacher or pastor. This even includes you in several of your posts.

Bronzesnake being a moderator has nothing to do with this discussion. As noted, nearly everyone already agrees on this extremely basic subject. For whatever reason, it appears that you hand-picked a moderator to become involved with a heated exchange for him stating the basic facts. I must add that you have agreed with those basic facts, but now you change the topic. So, why did you choose a moderator instead of one of the others, all with the same opinion? Was it because he stated the facts more bluntly, even though you agree with the facts that he stated.

I'm also very curious why you would use the rebuke of the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 to support the opposite of what the Apostle Paul was trying to achieve.

If this was a participatory meeting like the one you described, would you expect to be challenged or corrected? The subject is the capacity of a person to pastor or teach a congregation in a church service. Many have stated the same thing in various ways, including you, and now you are upset. Would you like to change the topic? There was also an attempt to condemn the same moderator for stating the facts and associate him with something that God hates. Again, I would ask if you would like to change the topic we are discussing. If not, you are angry with a brother who has done nothing but tell the truth and state the facts. Further, the moderator was told that God hates him for stating those facts.

If you want to remove pastors, teachers, leaders, and the experienced from the discussion, start another thread and do so. Regardless, this thread or a different one, don't tell a brother, moderator or not, that God hates him for telling the truth and stating facts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2nd Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[nChrist]

For now, I will stop replying here for a little. I want people to have the chance to read all this before we go on and make this thing 5 pages. I would hope that everyone would read this entire thing and consider all the posts carefully. Pray over the verses presented here and if you do it with a pure heart turned only to the Lord, you will know what it means.



Bronzesnake and BEP, I will reply to your most recent post soon.

Brother Felix,

If you want to remove pastors, teachers, leaders, and the experienced from the discussion, start another thread and do so. Regardless, this thread or a different one, don't tell a brother, moderator or not, that God hates him for telling the truth and stating facts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 14:1-3  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[Bronzesnake]

For now, I will stop replying here for a little. I want people to have the chance to read all this before we go on and make this thing 5 pages. I would hope that everyone would read this entire thing and consider all the posts carefully. Pray over the verses presented here and if you do it with a pure heart turned only to the Lord, you will know what it means.



Bronzesnake and BEP, I will reply to your most recent post soon.

Felix, I pray that you should take your own advice my young friend.

[Soldier4Christ]

I believe that this says it all here:

Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[Bronzesnake]

I believe that this says it all here:

Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Nicely done!

Be prepared to be launched upon!

[Layman Bairn]

Beps wrote:

Brother Bairn,

The subject you chose to debate is the capacity of a person to serve as a teacher or pastor in a church service.

I thought I was debating the capacity of anyone to do all the speaking and edifying in a meeting, the silence of the lambs if you will.

and again Beps wrote:

don't tell a brother, moderator or not, that God hates him for telling the truth and stating facts.

??

Bairn

[Bronzesnake]

bep quote...

 Instant Message (Online)       
   Re:The Church
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2005, 11:59:46 PM »    Reply with quote Modify message Remove message Split Topic
Quote:
Bairn Said:

Concerning teaching, Beps, please touch on this scripture, if you would:


1 Cor 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (KJV)

Brother,

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but here's a little mini-study I just did to answer your question.
___________________________

In 1 Corinthians 14, the Apostle Paul is addressing disorder and confusion in the church and ways to avoid or manage disorder and confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:40 is a fair summary of the chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:31  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

1 Corinthians 14:31 does not suggest that all in the service will speak, rather that those who do speak will do so one at a time and not interrupt each other. One must first define what it means to prophesy. To prophesy means to be uttering communications from God (i.e. Divinely Inspired by the Holy Spirit).

It is important to note that the Apostle Paul doesn't stop with the simple instructions that only one at a time may speak, but he adds:

1 Corinthians 14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Many like to leave out Verses 32 and 33 when quoting 1 Corinthians 14:31. In fact, many like to take it completely out of context and forget the fact that the Apostle Paul is actually chewing them out for allowing disorder in their services. Paul addresses many issues of pride, envy of gifts, and indecency in a worship service. One must not neglect the fact that there were false prophets then and now, some wanting to speak for vanity or stature purposes, and other problems associated with wanting to be heard above all others. In short, this was a problem of indecency and disorder in a worship service, then and now.

Now, we are back to:

1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

In conclusion, don't forget:

1 Corinthians 14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
________________________

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isn't it funny how no response comes after a revealing post such as this one that Tom posted?

This really takes 1 Corinthians 14:3 and puts it in it's full perspective, but not a peep in response. Hmmmm.  

[Soldier4Christ]

I believe that this says it all here:

Heb 5:12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Nicely done!

Be prepared to be launched upon!

 

[nChrist]

Whoa! Bronze man! Bad day?

Bronze wrote:
 
“It wasn't the kind of free for all, which you think it was. There was a "minister" the minister handed Jesus (a Rabbi) the book of the prophet Esaias to read from. When Jesus was done reading, He closed the book, gave it back and sat down. This is exactly what happens in many Churches today.”


Jesus conducted Himself according to the practices of the synagogues when He was there. And you apparently are unaware that, then and now, it is the right and privilege of every Jewish male both to read and comment upon the scriptures in the meetings, beginning at 12 or 13 years old.

Bronze wrote:

"First of all, when Paul was preaching, most every Jew was well schooled in the scriptures, which made it reasonable for that type of meeting to take place"

First of all, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He preached rarely to Jews. His teachings on the conducting of meetings overwhelmingly describe psalms, doctrines, tongues, revelations, prophesying, being shared by all in attendance. Here is a little key to consider:

1 Cor 14:30-31
30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
(KJV)

Paul is talking to unschooled (though Paul suerly taught them much) Greek gentiles… “If anything be revealed”.   What you are missing is that the Holy Spirit was active and vital in these meetings. It is all about the building up of one another “by that which every joint supplieth” I think I can speak for peh, when I say I have not the least disdain for leadership, or Church government or “ordained” teachers. Look what we all gained by The Lord ordaining the un-schooled fishermen and Galileans who wrote a good part of our New Testament. If you have sat in a church for a year or more and are not “schooled” in the scriptures and things of God, why are you still there?

This is the amazing statement:

Bronze wrote:

“There has to be a trained pastor in charge in order to "teach"
If you want to contribute, then go to a Bible study. You can't expect a Church to function with a room full of uninformed, untrained "ministers

Again, what constitutes them uninformed and untrained?  Bad teachers?

Where in the Bible are “Church meeting” and ”Bible study” made distinct?

What I do have disdain for is the clergy-laity system, The clergy class.
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If you do an extensive study of the word nicolaitan you will see what it is, about nicolaitans, that the Lord says He hates. The often taught rubbish about the nicolaitans is that they were an isolated, off the wall cult started by Nicholas (of acts fame). A great many scholars agree that “nicolaitanism” is just what the name implies: “nico” conquerer “laitan” the people ie. The laity...Conquerers of the laity (often applied to the Catholic priesthood but, think about it)

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1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV)


I spent years in professional entertainment, I recognize the dynamics of entertainment in our westernized church culture…the stage, the audience, the celebrity and the performance.
I quote from my earlier post:

There is a richness and a completeness to be had in a meeting where each one contributes. If we are in say, Eph:4 and I hear a teacher for 15 or twenty minutes and then hear 20 or so brothers and sisters bring their experiences and insights regarding the matter at hand... oh my! what a full and satisfying handling of ephesians 4 ! If someone stands and goes too long or off the mark for that meeting, then one in leadership can gently set things on track. This is my experience, it's what I read in the Word.

I am not negating leadership. I am questioning the towers we have built for them in the spiritual house.  I am condemning the silencing of the lively stones, the Holy Priesthood.


1 Pet 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (KJV)



Bairn

AND, Felix took it from there for you.

[peh]

Bronzesnake
One more thing and I'm jumping this ship.
You have this battery of blue stars by your name, a big flashing logo and a formidable name “BRONZESNAKE”. I’ve noticed that when ones disagree with you, it always comes down to “just stating the facts” “immature” “childish logic” “naïve” “wishy washy” “wrong my friend” and so on. I only have one little tiny gold star, but outside the cyber-church here, I am a 52-year-old father of two. I grew up on a cattle ranch in Montana, I’ve been a Christian for 35 years (long time in the microwave). I am not childish nor do I lightly consider the Word or blithely arrive at what I call logic. Your attempts to quash by intimidation are ill spent... “my friend”.

Your recent statement about the servant not being greater than his master was pitifully misused.

Matt 10:24-25
24. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
(KJV)

Jesus was affirming to them (and us) that we will also suffer persecutions. He further illiterates His view of ‘masterhood’ in John 13:12-17


12. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13. Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do
(KJV)

Here is the definitive illustration of  the humility and care expected to operate in a “master” in the Kingdom of God

When you “state the facts”, as you call it about the absurdity of participatory church meetings you are sorely in error. The Plymouth Bretheren and The brethren assemblies (small “b” their choice) have been meeting in the way I have described for a couple of centuries. Their way of meeting grew directly out of the work and ministry of John Nelson Darby (laaaaaaaaats of blue stars). Many other groups meet this way and there is ample scriptural precedent for it whether your “facts” affirm it or not.

Anyway..lighten up…moderate but don’t castigate.

Bairn

I hope you read this before you give up in disgust, bairn.. I give you a loud, emphatic and fully cognizant AMEN!   Moderators and their "friends" have the last word, and perhaps that is as it should be.   Nevertheless, I am with you, I'm outie.  

Y'all have a nice life sitting in your wrong church and under the wrong pastor (Before you beef up an answer to that, blackeyedpeas, look at your own words to felix102).

Just one set of last thoughts for you:  "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers"...how does a new born one get to that time?  Have you ever done anything well you didn't practice first?   Have you ever had a wrong thought that was corrected in a spirit of meekness (not in the "I know better than you everything" attitude on this forum?) and realized that you'd been on a wrong track, and been grateful for a change in direction?   Did you get there by sitting under one man who may or may not know how you're thinking cuz you never talk to the "star"?

[nChrist]

peh,

Nobody here needs much of an answer, and nobody here claimed to be a "star", except maybe you. At this point, nobody knows enough to teach you anything, and you condemn anyone who tries. So, be your own teacher and be happy. I'll pray for you.

[Jemidon2004]

Sheesh you guys. I'm gone for a few weeks and the attacks have begun. am I going to have to start disciplining you guys. I don't know what the bickering back and forth is about, but it's got to stop somewhere. I don't know who started it, but ultimately God will finish it. I get the feeling there's been a bit of miscommunication and interpretation of a few things. I'm going to go print out the whole thread and see where the error may be then i'll get back to you all. Until then, cool all of your jets please...i don't want to see anyone's feelings hurt or anyone getting mad at another. That's what satan wants us to do...we must be mature Christians about this. I 'm sure you all understand where i'm coming from. God Bless

Joshua

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Jemidon my friend.

Don't get too worried my brother. This is the nature of debate.
It's very difficult to judge a persons temperament through type, so if it appears that some of us are angry, all I can do is speak for myself. I am not angry. I debate as effectively as I can, and that may come across as anger. At times I do get sarcastic, but not blue faced, mouth frothing angry.

 

Just one set of last thoughts for you:  "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers"...how does a new born one get to that time?  Have you ever done anything well you didn't practice first?  Have you ever had a wrong thought that was corrected in a spirit of meekness (not in the "I know better than you everything" attitude on this forum?) and realized that you'd been on a wrong track, and been grateful for a change in direction?  Did you get there by sitting under one man who may or may not know how you're thinking cuz you never talk to the "star"?

Stunning logic!! Should a pilot take the controls on his very first day of training? Should he give his flight instructor tips on how to fly? Think before you make such ludicrous comments my sister.

[Shammu]

[quote author=peh link=board=3;threadid=7192;start=45#msg100647

I hope you read this before you give up in disgust, bairn.. I give you a loud, emphatic and fully cognizant AMEN!   Moderators and their "friends" have the last word, and perhaps that is as it should be.   Nevertheless, I am with you, I'm outie.  

Moderators, don't have the last word peh. We are answering to God, praying that we are doing right. The moderators job he peh, is to make sure the rules are followed. I'm sorry if you feel the rules can be stretched for you. The rules aren't stretched, for anyone. Us mods, are answerable to God, and Admin., who owns Christians Unite.

The only "outies" are those who make, themselves outies.

Resting in the Lords embrace.
Bob

Song of Solomon 2:6 His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me.