The church and salvation

[ollie]

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie

Ollie, I have already written much on this subject, I don't have time to go over it again, I knoiw I have given you the same information at leats twice before, which I plan to write herein now;  I am going to be very busy for the next two weeks or so, with my family, I doubt that I will have time to even spend on the correspondence we have been exchanging, but as soon as I get back to it, I'll try and catch up.

But, briefly, allow me to show u some key verses which might shed some light on the subject for you.. I have given these out over and over; even to the point where I wonder why I even get in these conversation with you all, since it appears top me you ignore them and keep on insisting, water baptism some how or other,  clinches the deal of receiving the Holy Spirit.

First of all, it is obvious when reading the account of Cornelius at Acts 10, they received the  Holy Spirit, excactly as the disciples received Him, on the day of pentecost, the disciples had already been baptized with John's baptism for the repentance of sin.  There is no account that the disciples where re-baptized after recieving the Holy Spirit, in fact the scriptures speaks of; "One Lord, One faith, One  Baptism (Eph 4:5)

Water Baptism, was what John came forth performing, while declaring;  Make straight the way of the Lord, (Jhn 1:23), and his message, was that;

26  I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

again,

29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Please note verse 31, the account that John gives us,  for the reason he came baptizing with water,

I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel , therefore am I come baptizing with water.

In the vernacular, John says; I came baptizing with water, so, that Jesus might be made manifest to Israel.

What does does this mean??

That Jesus might be revealed to Israel

Does this verse mean something else to you??

At  Mat 21:25, Jesus asks;

The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?

What is your answer??

I say it was from heaven, why because it was ordained by God himself, to John, and again, let me make sure you see, this, John testified;

33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34  And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Now knowing how you think, after all that has been said herein, your going to go to Acts 19; and try to prove that it is necessary to be baptized, in water by the laying on of hands of a priest, reverend or someone, in order to receive the Holy Spirit, but, this is where you are wrong,

Because when one reads the Account of Acts 19:1-7, there is no mention of "water at all", Paul simply laid his hands on these and the "holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Vs 6.

And what is not evident to those who read this passage superficially, is that these men, were unbelievers, who had been baptised with Jhn's baptism (in water) but knew nothing of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by their answer to Pauls question:  "Unto what then were ye baptized?" vs 3.

Just because the scriptures at verse 1, say;

Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Just because the word says these where disciples, it doesnt mean they where disciples of Jesus, or John.

Any carefull reader at this verse, should ask himself

Whose disciples are these, anyhow?

They knew something, but they didn't know anything about the Baptism of the Holy Gohst which was to follow Johns baptism which he preached, in fact they said;

"We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

So it is obvious they where;

1. Unbelievers.

2. Not disciples of John, nor Jesus.

If you read on in Acts 19, there was all sort of things happening by unsaved individuals using the name of Jesus and Paul to exorcize at Ephesus, note verses 13-14.

On the otherhand, when they believed and where baptized by Paul, they recieved the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

In every case the Apostle who baptized in water, did so, after those who were batized believed. And they ejmphasized "believe".

I am afraid you read to much into the scriptures to your own detriment, you assume these were baptized with water.

Now, yes I know Jesus, said to the Apostles;

Mat 28
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

But they emphasized, belief as being the necessary for salvation, not baptism, and certainly not water baptism to be the real thing.

 
Now, contrast this passage of scripture with Acts 10:47, where water is mentioned for baptism to them who had not been baptized in water, but had received the Holy Spirit, and note that, the laying on of hands had not been done to this either.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The baptism of with the Holy Spirit is the real thing, and it is performed by God, the baptism of water for the remission of sins, is peformed by man, after one has come to faith and been sealed by the Spirit of Promise, both are perfomed at different times and received by faith, and only when one has been sealed by the Holy Spirit can it be truly said, this person is saved,

Many people today who place their faith in being batized by a priest, or reverend in a church, and have not believed, are damned, that baptism hasn't done anything for them, and anyone that tells them, you are saved don't worry about it,   just because they have been baptized, and belong to this or that church,  are derelict in their duty as a Christian, in giving out the word of truth.

There is only one baptism that saves, and that is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Now what good is Water Baptism, well for one, the significance is not as evident today as it was then, but it is an out ward testimony of an inward need, of being cleansed from sin, washed, but it one of obedience to a command given by the Lord himself, signifying faith in Him,  it is the same today as it was then, it identifies you with the risen savior, get baptized, and there is no doubt in the minds of the people that hear about it, in whom you have placed your faith.



I now this is mystery to many..

Blessings,
Petro

It was not necessary to provide all this information since as you stated you have done it previously.
However I have learned that you misunderstand my position on the Holy Spirit being received.
I do not believe one receives the Holy Spirit during water baptism.

All that was necessary to answer my question was your last paragraph. However you provided no scripture to substantiate it is of God. I asked for Bible references also.

Ollies question:

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie


Petro's answer to Ollie's question:

Now what good is Water Baptism, well for one, the significance is not as evident today as it was then, but it is an out ward testimony of an inward need, of being cleansed from sin, washed, but it one of obedience to a command given by the Lord himself, signifying faith in Him,  it is the same today as it was then, it identifies you with the risen savior, get baptized, and there is no doubt in the minds of the people that hear about it, in whom you have placed your faith.

Where is the scripture?

[mardis]

Baptism is done:
  To be saved - Mark 16:16.
  To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
  Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
  Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
  Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
  Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

[mardis]

Feel free to visit us at www.pagestoyou.com for more information.

Thanks,
Mardis

[Petro]

Reply #45 posted by Ollie
It was not necessary to provide all this information since as you stated you have done it previously.
However I have learned that you misunderstand my position on the Holy Spirit being received.
I do not believe one receives the Holy Spirit during water baptism.

All that was necessary to answer my question was your last paragraph. However you provided no scripture to substantiate it is of God. I asked for Bible references also.

Ollies question:

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie


Petro's answer to Ollie's question:

Now what good is Water Baptism, well for one, the significance is not as evident today as it was then, but it is an out ward testimony of an inward need, of being cleansed from sin, washed, but it one of obedience to a command given by the Lord himself, signifying faith in Him, it is the same today as it was then, it identifies you with the risen savior, get baptized, and there is no doubt in the minds of the people that hear about it, in whom you have placed your faith.

Where is the scripture?

Ollie,

Lets take it from the beginning again..

The scriptures tell us, Abraham was declared righteous by God and God promised to establish an everlasting covenant with his son Isaac, God then went on to give Abraham the sign of circumcision as the token of this Covenant.

The OT was sealed in blood, and the sign that the children of God, wore on their bodies was the sign of circumscision; When God made the Old Covenant with Abraham, He said;

Gen 17
9  And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11  And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12  And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

This them was the sign or token of this Covenant; between Abraham and God; and everyone who was circumcised acknowledged that he was a follower of the God of Abraham and a keeper of this Covenant.  Read, Romans 4.

And way over in the book of John, Jesus tells us ;

Jhn 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


John reveals to us, that Abraham understood that God would save His people from their sins, by providing himself a sacrifice, as the lamb which God provided, in the day He tested Abraham (Gen 22), and raise Him (Jesus, the Lamb of God) from death for his (Abraham's) own justification. This is what Paul tells us at Hebrews 11:17-19.

 Now, the NT also was ratified with blood (the Lord's); the sign Christians received is that of baptism.

You ask;

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?  

The Water baptism, (of John) was one of repentance for the remission of sins, (Mk 1:1,Lk 3:3); it never changed, Jesus asked;

The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? (Jhn 21:25)

, John, himself  testifies, it was ordained to him from the One who sent him to baptize in water, (John 1:33), that Jesus might be made manifest to the nation of Israel.

And in Like 7, there is this little passage of scripture, which says this;

29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
31  And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?  
32   They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.  
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34   The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!  
35   But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Note carefully, verse 29, Does anyone justify God?  NO!
It is the other way around, God is the one that Justifies; so what does it mean in this verse that God is justified?
Simply this, the Son of Man came ate and drank with tax collectors and sinners (vs 34) that is, He identified himself with those whom He came to bless. And these religious leaders were not happy either way, they accused John of  having a devil (he came neither eating bread nor drinking wine), while accusing Jesus of being a glutton and a winebibber, because He ate and drank vs 34.

And yet at verse 35, Wisdom, represented by the Savior himself is justified by Gods children who, are they that justify God's Wisdom, in obeying the call, to repent, and be baptized.

So, then all who admit to being sinners in need of forgiveness of sin, justify the word which condemns sinners, in other words they by agreeing with it, justify it to be just and true.

At the baptism of John, all were baptized, while not yet having believed in Jesus, even the Apostles, were all baptized, before they came to faith in Him, and they baptized with water before the Lord had risen (Jhn 4:1-2).

Now, the point Pastor Tom and  mardis have made, was that water baptism, was necessary for salvation, while confessing that water baptism itself does not save, they state that it (water baptism) and baptism with the Holy Spirit is one in the same, however it is plain that if this was so, John would not have spoke of another baptism (Jhn 1:31-33),and them Jesus spoke of another baptism when he spoke to the Apostles, concerning His baptism which He was going to be baptized with, (after being water baptized already by John the Baptist) (Mat 20:22-23)                  

So to answer your question;  

Water baptism serves to identify every person who believes in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, for the sins of sinners.  

In other words, "He died for me, and I want the world to Know this."


Continued...................sorry it is so long..

[Petro]

Continuation  of my previous post to Ollie..

So recognizing that one must believe and be baptized in order to be saved, we Christians, desire to be baptized in water after we have believed, understanding the to be baptized while in unbelief is a useless act of futility since, Jesus  said :  

" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."  (Mk16:16)

Mat 28
18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20   Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.  Amen.

Verse 19, above at the word "baptizing", speaks of the a ceremonial ablution ordinance   instituted by the Lord himself, to baptize, to wash, to make whelmed, ie:fully wet, to the name of;Father , Son, and Holy Gohst.

Now this begs the question;

When is this to be done; when they become believers?, or while yet in unbelief?

The answer is found in the same verse, since it is obvious not all nations or peoples, will be taught, or allow themselves to be baptized, so, that the answer is;   "while yet in unbelief".

So, refer to Mk 16:16, which baptisim is in view here??,

Certainly not water baptism, as they have already been baptized in water them that are baptized with the Holy Gohst, whom John spoke of, and the baptism spoke of in Mk 16:16, is the baptism of the Holy Gohst.

So, you ask what good is water baptism?  

It serves to identify those who (just like those of the OT who came to be baptized for repentance for the remission of sins) have a need (desire) to counted among them that want to be cleasned from sin, recognizing and confessing publicly that they are sinners and need to be washed clean by God word, and it is received as an act of Gods mercy and grace, by faith, that their sins are forgiven, and God who knows the heart, baptizes those who believe, having given to them the gift of faith.

Your second question was;

Would you explain it with scripture references?

To expain it, I would have to reiterate what has already been said.

Here is the verse;

Col 2
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Consider these carefully, all this is by faith, and faith, is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9) given by His Grace, to them He has elected.

It is a mystery, and it ruffles the feathers of all, who don't want God to be sovereign, especially those who want to have a hand in their own salvation.

Now, there are those who, baptize (sprinkle) infants in water, is this necessary??

The bible is silent, concerning this, in my opinion;

A believeing father and mother, could dedicate their child to the Lord, instead of baptizing it, since it is the believing parent/s that sanctify the child (1 Cor 7:14) many believe this means that they are saved, but not so, it simply means they are set apart, for receiving the truth, but,  nowhere will anyone, find that it is necessary to baptize a child, this is an old teaching, introduced by tradition, and has no redeeming value whatsoever, since it is the person who, by his own desire and volition willfully excersices the act of wanting to be baptized in water or, not, and, it has to do with whether one believes God or not,  infants aren't even aware what is going on around them, let alone believe anything..

In this age of great deception, I believe that water baptism is better served by performing it to them that have come to faith in Jesus, and have publicly confessed him as Lord and Savior, with their own mouth thru their own words (consider Rom 10:10), in order that others, including them that confess Jesus, will knowingly understand that water baptism is an opportunity for the Christian to publicly identify themselves with the triune Godhead.

They acknowledge that God is their Father, that Jesus is Christ is their Lord and Savior, and that the Holy Spirit in the One who indwells and empowers, and teaches them.

But this isn't taught in churches today, most people that are baptized simply know that they are obediently following a churches ordinance, so their faith then is  focused in their act of water baptism and being a member of a church, this is why, they can state;

Baptism is necessary for Salvation, (water immersed) ..

and when presssed for an answer, will testify, it really isn't...

Blessings,

Petro

[ollie]

 Hebrews 10:22.  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


Is this the water of baptism?  The verse is refering to individuals in Christ.


Or is it:

Ephesians5:26.  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Is the word the water?  The verse is refering to Christ's church.

 Is God telling us that Christians are maintained in sanctification and continually cleansed by the word of God, using the word water, and that this has nothing to do with the initial baptism that remits sin?