The church and salvation

[mardis]

Petro

You have not understood me.  I do believe that baptism is necessary to be saved.  We don't merit salvation through baptism, but without it we cannot be saved.  This is what I mean in my last posts.

Baptism is done:
  To be saved - Mark 16:16.
  To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
  Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
  Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
  Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
  Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Please re-read my last post.  The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's gracious gift when we follow His plan of salvation, which includes baptism to be saved.

Thanks,
Mardis

[mardis]

Hey everyone.  I am going to be out of town for a while.  I will try to catch up and make responses on Sunday or Monday, if the Lord is willing.

Thanks,
Mardis

[mardis]

Hey everyone!  Welcome to the new week!  

I'm looking forward to our continued studies on what a person must do to be saved.

Mardis

[PastorTom]

The Sacrament of Christian Baptism is grounded in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.  The institution of Christian Baptism has its source in the Great Commission and in Jesus' own baptism.  (Mt 28.19-20; Mt 3.13-17; Mk 1.9-11; Lk 3.21-22; Jn 1.29ff).

In Baptism we die and rise with Christ.  God acted in Christ to save us; God acts through Baptism to save us.  The baptized are pardoned, cleansed and sanctified in Christ (Rom 6.3-5).

In Baptism we are called into the Christian community and incorporated into the body of Christ, in which we are made a new creation, reconciled to God, and entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation.  The community of the baptized is, therefore, the body of Christ, continuing God's mission in the world and sharing in the hope of the world to come (1 Cor 12.12ff; 2 Cor 5.14-21).

In Baptism God seals us with the Holy Spirit, who nurtures our life of faith until we enter into the full possession of our inheritance.  We are born anew, and marked with the cross of Christ forever (2 Cor 1.21-22; Eph 1.13-14; Jn 3.1-8; Rom 6.1-11).

In Baptism we renounce the powers of darkness and dedicate ourselves to participating in the inbreaking reign of God.

A person is baptized once; Baptism is not repeated.  Christians live and affirm their Baptism through daily repentance, receiving forgiveness and renewal in the Holy Spirit.  Baptism is a daily dying to sin and rising to newness of life.

Shalom

[Petro]

author  PastorTom as reply #34
Petro:



The Lord Jesus Christ says in Mt 28.19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."  Likewise in Mk 16.16,"The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

Pastor Tom,  

I would have answered you earlier, but I lost the post I prepared, when trying to post it, was to long, so I moved on and decided to answer when I had more time.
 
Without getting off the subject, and I think already we are steering the conversation off the subject, when we start talking about what man must do, to be saved.

The issue that was rasied herein, is water baptism, and the question is; Is it necessary for Salvation??

Now, in your previous post you sated; reply #34

What you call "water Baptism" is just "Baptism" to me.  I don't believe that it is just a "testimony to the world" nor that it is a work of "man."  I said above, "Baptism is God's act for us.  Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes.  God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us."

Let me see if I understand you correctly, here..

Are you saying that when a pastor baptizes someone, and lays hands on them they receive the Holy Ghost; and if they are not water baptized by a pastor they cannot receive the Holy Spirit??



Petro

[PastorTom]

Dear Petro:

I am saying that when a pastor pours water over someone's head OR immerses them in water and speaks God's word of promise then God saves that person.  "The baptized are pardoned, cleansed and sanctified in Christ."

When the pastor lays hands on the person who is baptized and prays for God's Holy Spirit to come upon this person then we trust in God's promises that this really happens.  The prayer that we say in our church is:

"God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we give you thanks for freeing your sons and daughters from the power of sin and for raising them up to a new life through this holy sacrament.  Pour your Holy Spirit upon name :  the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spririt of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence."

Only the Holy Spirit can enable the dying and rising of Baptism, and God's promise is that this is what the Spirit does in Baptism (Rom 6.1ff).

Am I saying that if someone is not baptized that they can't receive the Holy Spirit?  No.  Many who aren't baptized still come to faith and faith comes only through the Holy Spirit.  That's evident even in the Bible when Peter finds that Cornelius and his household have received the Holy Spirit so he doesn't hesitate in baptizing them.

You might ask, then why is Baptism necessary if we can have faith through the Holy Spirit without it?  Baptism is necessary because Christ commands it (Mt 28.19-20) and because in Baptism we die and rise with Christ.  God acted in Christ to save us; God acts through Baptism to save us.  The baptized are pardoned, cleansed, and sanctified in Christ (Rom 6.3-5).

Shalom

[Petro]

Dear Petro:

I am saying that when a pastor pours water over someone's head OR immerses them in water and speaks God's word of promise then God saves that person.  "The baptized are pardoned, cleansed and sanctified in Christ."

When the pastor lays hands on the person who is baptized and prays for God's Holy Spirit to come upon this person then we trust in God's promises that this really happens.  The prayer that we say in our church is:

"God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we give you thanks for freeing your sons and daughters from the power of sin and for raising them up to a new life through this holy sacrament.  Pour your Holy Spirit upon name :  the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spririt of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence."

Only the Holy Spirit can enable the dying and rising of Baptism, and God's promise is that this is what the Spirit does in Baptism (Rom 6.1ff).

Am I saying that if someone is not baptized that they can't receive the Holy Spirit?  No.  Many who aren't baptized still come to faith and faith comes only through the Holy Spirit.  That's evident even in the Bible when Peter finds that Cornelius and his household have received the Holy Spirit so he doesn't hesitate in baptizing them.

You might ask, then why is Baptism necessary if we can have faith through the Holy Spirit without it?  Baptism is necessary because Christ commands it (Mt 28.19-20) and because in Baptism we die and rise with Christ.  God acted in Christ to save us; God acts through Baptism to save us.  The baptized are pardoned, cleansed, and sanctified in Christ (Rom 6.3-5).

Shalom

Pastor Tom,


You keep reiterating;

When the pastor lays hands on the person who is baptized and prays for God's Holy Spirit to come upon this person then we trust in God's promises that this really happens.  The prayer that we say in our church is:

"God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we give you thanks for freeing your sons and daughters from the power of sin and for raising them up to a new life through this holy sacrament.  Pour your Holy Spirit upon name :  the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spririt of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence."

And then quote Rom 6:1,2
3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Is this water baptism, which accomplishes what you have been talking about??

I have been with you, up to this point, but here is where we begin to part company..  I trust that you wont be like mardis, in flipping and flopping..

Are you saying that, water baptism, imparts the Holy Spirit??

If this is what you are teaching, please connect the dots for me, using the following scripture;

I have emboldened the princple verse;

Rom 6
4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

and,

Col 2
8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Eph 4
4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


1 Pet 3
20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In the OT, at Eze 36, God promises a washing by the sprinkling of  pure water, although it is speaking of Israel, the nation, is it not true, this is the real washing of Israels sin away??

25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Blessings,  
Petro

[PastorTom]

I thought I was being pretty clear.

In Baptism we die and rise in Christ.  "When we were baptized, we died and were buried with Christ.  We were baptized, so that we would live a new life, as Christ was raised to life by the glory of God the Father."

Only the Holy Spirit can enable the dying and rising of Baptism, and God's promise is that this is what the Spirit does in Baptism.

Yes, in Baptism we recieve the Holy Spirit.

Can someone receive the Spirit without being baptized?  Yes as happens to Cornelius and his household in Acts 10 and as is evident in many people of faith in churches that practice believer's Baptism.  Without the Spirit they would not have faith.

Shalom

[Petro]

I thought I was being pretty clear.

In Baptism we die and rise in Christ.  "When we were baptized, we died and were buried with Christ.  We were baptized, so that we would live a new life, as Christ was raised to life by the glory of God the Father."

Only the Holy Spirit can enable the dying and rising of Baptism, and God's promise is that this is what the Spirit does in Baptism.

Yes, in Baptism we recieve the Holy Spirit.

Can someone receive the Spirit without being baptized?  Yes as happens to Cornelius and his household in Acts 10 and as is evident in many people of faith in churches that practice believer's Baptism.  Without the Spirit they would not have faith.

Shalom

Pastor Tom,

All believers are saved in exactly the same way as Cornelius and His ousehold were saved, it is clear they had received the Holy Spirit, before they were batized in water.

They had received Faith by Grace , which resulted in the sealing of the Holy Spirit exactly, the same way, that the disciples had,  at the day of Pentecost.

Note the scriptures at the First Council at Jerusalem, when Peter testifies, what happened that day at Cornelius's

Acts 15
7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


When he referred to Acts 10:45-46.

Please note the words;  in verse 9 above, purifying their hearts by faith.

And then, we read at the verse which has been previously quoted;

Col 2
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The circumscision made without hands (verse 11), and the baptism with the Holy Spirit are in view herein at this passage, and are the result of Gods work, in that He had promised to do the same for Israel, and since all believers are saved exacly the same way, for there is no difference between them and us, we can see who He does it;

Eze 36
24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

All this is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, the promise fulfilled by faith in Jesus, to everyone who believes.

The Baptism, the Lord Commanded (water baptism) is not required at all for Salvation, Salvation is accomplished by the Work of God, through the Holy Spirit, this is the Batism, that Jhn spoke of in Jhn 1:33

This made clear by the verse which has been quoted and re-quoted herein,  

Mk 16
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Since "believeth" is the word which clearly distinguishes those who are saved, and those that are damned, herein, one must conclude that water baptism, without belief, is useless.

And since belief, is what determines salvation, it is not focused on the act of water baptism at all, but, in the finished works of our Lord and Savior, our faith being in the operation of God  who by the power of ther Holy Spirit raise Him, from the dead, this is why, Paul tells us in;

Rom 8
9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

And all this occurs before a person is baptized in water, because Baptism with the Holy Spirit is an act of God, it is evidenced by the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit testifying to our Spirits that we are children of God, way before we are baptizeed, this is what is called the 'new birth' Jesus spoke of, to Nicodemus.

Of course this is what produces a desire to obey the Lords commandment and everyone should seek water baptism,

And this is the reason, I would never say as "mardis" claims, that water baptism is necessary fgor salvation, this is not what the scriptures  teach at all.

This teaching will decieve many, into believing they are saved, because they have said certain words, and had water sprinkled or have been submerged in it , and belong to a church, that teaches it.  This then would cause them to focus, on a wrong object for their faith.

I think it needs to be taught, so people do not confuse, which Baptism is the one that matters.

Blessings,  
Petro

[ollie]

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie

[Petro]

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie

Ollie, I have already written much on this subject, I don't have time to go over it again, I knoiw I have given you the same information at leats twice before, which I plan to write herein now;  I am going to be very busy for the next two weeks or so, with my family, I doubt that I will have time to even spend on the correspondence we have been exchanging, but as soon as I get back to it, I'll try and catch up.

But, briefly, allow me to show u some key verses which might shed some light on the subject for you.. I have given these out over and over; even to the point where I wonder why I even get in these conversation with you all, since it appears top me you ignore them and keep on insisting, water baptism some how or other,  clinches the deal of receiving the Holy Spirit.

First of all, it is obvious when reading the account of Cornelius at Acts 10, they received the  Holy Spirit, excactly as the disciples received Him, on the day of pentecost, the disciples had already been baptized with John's baptism for the repentance of sin.  There is no account that the disciples where re-baptized after recieving the Holy Spirit, in fact the scriptures speaks of; "One Lord, One faith, One  Baptism (Eph 4:5)

Water Baptism, was what John came forth performing, while declaring;  Make straight the way of the Lord, (Jhn 1:23), and his message, was that;

26  I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

again,

29  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Please note verse 31, the account that John gives us,  for the reason he came baptizing with water,

I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel , therefore am I come baptizing with water.

In the vernacular, John says; I came baptizing with water, so, that Jesus might be made manifest to Israel.

What does does this mean??

That Jesus might be revealed to Israel

Does this verse mean something else to you??

At  Mat 21:25, Jesus asks;

The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?

What is your answer??

I say it was from heaven, why because it was ordained by God himself, to John, and again, let me make sure you see, this, John testified;

33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34  And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Now knowing how you think, after all that has been said herein, your going to go to Acts 19; and try to prove that it is necessary to be baptized, in water by the laying on of hands of a priest, reverend or someone, in order to receive the Holy Spirit, but, this is where you are wrong,

Because when one reads the Account of Acts 19:1-7, there is no mention of "water at all", Paul simply laid his hands on these and the "holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Vs 6.

And what is not evident to those who read this passage superficially, is that these men, were unbelievers, who had been baptised with Jhn's baptism (in water) but knew nothing of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by their answer to Pauls question:  "Unto what then were ye baptized?" vs 3.

Just because the scriptures at verse 1, say;

Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Just because the word says these where disciples, it doesnt mean they where disciples of Jesus, or John.

Any carefull reader at this verse, should ask himself

Whose disciples are these, anyhow?

They knew something, but they didn't know anything about the Baptism of the Holy Gohst which was to follow Johns baptism which he preached, in fact they said;

"We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

So it is obvious they where;

1. Unbelievers.

2. Not disciples of John, nor Jesus.

If you read on in Acts 19, there was all sort of things happening by unsaved individuals using the name of Jesus and Paul to exorcize at Ephesus, note verses 13-14.

On the otherhand, when they believed and where baptized by Paul, they recieved the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

In every case the Apostle who baptized in water, did so, after those who were batized believed. And they ejmphasized "believe".

I am afraid you read to much into the scriptures to your own detriment, you assume these were baptized with water.

Now, yes I know Jesus, said to the Apostles;

Mat 28
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

But they emphasized, belief as being the necessary for salvation, not baptism, and certainly not water baptism to be the real thing.

 
Now, contrast this passage of scripture with Acts 10:47, where water is mentioned for baptism to them who had not been baptized in water, but had received the Holy Spirit, and note that, the laying on of hands had not been done to this either.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The baptism of with the Holy Spirit is the real thing, and it is performed by God, the baptism of water for the remission of sins, is peformed by man, after one has come to faith and been sealed by the Spirit of Promise, both are perfomed at different times and received by faith, and only when one has been sealed by the Holy Spirit can it be truly said, this person is saved,

Many people today who place their faith in being batized by a priest, or reverend in a church, and have not believed, are damned, that baptism hasn't done anything for them, and anyone that tells them, you are saved don't worry about it,   just because they have been baptized, and belong to this or that church,  are derelict in their duty as a Christian, in giving out the word of truth.

There is only one baptism that saves, and that is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Now what good is Water Baptism, well for one, the significance is not as evident today as it was then, but it is an out ward testimony of an inward need, of being cleansed from sin, washed, but it one of obedience to a command given by the Lord himself, signifying faith in Him,  it is the same today as it was then, it identifies you with the risen savior, get baptized, and there is no doubt in the minds of the people that hear about it, in whom you have placed your faith.



I now this is mystery to many..

Blessings,
Petro

[PastorTom]

What is Baptism?

Baptism is not simply plain water.  Instead it is water used according to God's command and connected with God's Word.

What the is this Word of God?

Where our Lord Jesus Christ says in Matthew 28.19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

What gifts or benefits does Baptism grant?

It brings about forgiveness of sins, redeems from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe it, as the Word and promise of God declare.

What is this Word and promise of God?

Where our Lord Jesus Christ says in Mark 16.16, "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

How can water do such great things?

Clearly the water does not do it, but the Word of God, which is with, in, and among the water, and faith, which trusts this Word of God in the water.  For without the Word of God the water is plain water and not a baptism, but with the Word of God it is a baptism, that is, a grace-filled water of life and a "bath of the new birth in the Holy Spirit."  As St. Paul says to Titus in 3.5-8, "He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.  This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.  The saying is sure."

What then is the significance of such a baptism with water?

It signifies that the old person in us with all sins and evil desires is to be drowned through daily sorrow for sin and repentance, and that daily a new person is to come forth and rise up to live before God in righteousness and purity forever.

Where is this written?

St. Paul says in Romans 6.3-4, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?  Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

The old sinner's favorite attack on Baptism is to ignore the Word and concentrate on the water.  "Water," it sniffs.  "Water!  Whoever heard of such a thing?  You flush your toilets with water and now you say that God uses water to make you certain?  Nonsense!"

If that doesn't work, the old Adam or Eve puts on some religion and tries to explain Baptism away.  "Oh yes," the old you will say, "the water is a nice symbol.  But what really counts is what you do with your Baptism.  If you want to be sure of it, you have to make your Baptism complete by doing what God wants you to do."

Either way, whether by scorning the water or calling it a symbol, the old sinful self makes it sound as if Baptism is "water only."  The it can be ignored as a quaint ceremony for children or taken as something we have to do before getting down to what's really important:  doing good things for Jesus.  It's the same story.  If the old self doesn't ignore the promise completely, it insists on trying to earn what God will only give as a gift.

But "Baptism is not water only.  It is water used together with God's Word."  That water and the Word can't be separated, not without losing the sacrament.  Apart from the Word, the water is plain, ordinary water.  Apart from the water, the Word is still God's Word but the sacrament is gone.  The Word and the water go together, the Word telling us what happens in the washing.

"Make disciples of all nations," Jesus said.  How does this happen?  By "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you" (Mt 28.19-20).  This is Christ's Word, telling us what happens in the washing.  As the Word is spoken, as the water is washed across our heads, Jesus makes us his disciples, his own beloved people.

So, in the speaking of the Word and the washing of the water, Christ gives birth to the new you in each of us, making us members of his church.  Then, after our Baptism, he continues to be with us in the teaching of his Word and the Lord's Supper, sustaining and keeping the new you he has made.  "And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age," he says (Mt 28.20).

That's why Baptism rings and sings with so much certainty.  Where the old sinner in us can manage to separate the water from the Word, the certainty is lost.  But when the Word and the water work together, as Christ promises they do, Baptism is more certain than the sunrise.  For Christ himself is present in the Word, with the water, to make us his very own and give us all the gifts he has to give.

There is one more essential ingredient in Baptism:  Christ's command.  "Go therefore," he says, "make disciples...baptizing them...."  That's an order.

Maybe it seems strange that Christ should command such a great and gracious gift.  When Baptism is so full of grace, it's hard to understand why the whole world doesn't clamor for it, demanding to be baptized in his name.

But the truth is closer to the opposite.  There is no gift, next to Christ himself, that the old Adam or Eve, the world, and the devil hold in deeper contempt.  Baptism is the old self's funeral - the birth of the new you.  So the old you attacks this sacrament with all the contempt, scorn, spite, malice, and hatred it can muster.

All of the old Adam's attacks on Baptism have the same purpose:  to make it appear that it is something we do for God, not something God does for us.  As a result, people wind up fearing, loving, and trusting what they do, and Baptism finally doesn't matter.  So unbelievers sneer at Baptism as a magic rite we do so we won't be afraid to die.  Or the super pious ignore Baptism as if God can't do what he promises and concentrate on their own conversions, decisions for Christ, and experiences as far more important.  Either way, Baptism is treated with contempt.

In all of these attacks, the fact that Christ commanded Baptism makes us all the more certain.  It is a friendly command, a loving order Christ gives so that we will know how important Baptism is both to him and to us.  Because he commanded it, we can be sure that Baptism is no human plaything - something invented by people to make us feel better.  And we can be sure, too, that all of the old self's religious strutting about conversions and experiences is just that - strutting and nothing else.

Baptism is God's act for us.  Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes.  God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us.  God keeps right on working, too, "to the end of the age" to be sure we're sure - to keep the new you in the certainy that is Christ's trademark.

Shalom

[Petro]

Pastor Tom,


If water baptism, is the baptism, which accomplishes all this you have written, then there was  NO need for Jesus to speak of another baptism.

He himself was baptized, and yet, he spoke of another baptism, he would be baptized with, and spoke in this manner to his disciples this way;

Mat 20
22  .............Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23  And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:  (see the parallel in Mk 10:38-19)

The Apostle Luke writes in;

Acts 1
1  The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2  Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3  To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4  And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


At;

Acts 8, there was a certain man called Simon who was a sorcerer and had made a big impression on Samaria do to his sorceries, who was baptized with water at verse 13, of whom the scriptures say that he believed and yet remained in his sin, and the others who were baptized also, received not the Holy Spirit (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) verse 16;


But when Peter and John, who were sent from Jerusalem, prayed, for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:vs 15

17  Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

This Simon of whom the scriptures say he believed, he followed Phillip fascinated by the miracles he(Phillip) performed, and since he (Simon) had convinced many that he had "the great power of God" vs 9-10, he desired the gift, that he might impart thre Holy Spirit, for money, evidenced by Peters answer "They money perish with thee" verses 18-24.

So we see, plainly that Simon was a professor not a possessor, and,  those who teach salvation by (water) baptism  are faced with a dilema here, salvation by baptism with the Holy Spirit is what is required water baptism accomplished nothing because of the lack of Faith, this is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9), and this was performed by the laying on of hands upon them that had received the Word of God and the preaching of the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, afterwards were given the Gift and sealed by that same Spirit of Truth.

This Simon, from whose name we get the word "simony" (making a business out of that which is sacred) was the forunner of those who seek rather to go to a human mediator
between God and themselves rather than the Lord himself.

That there was no true repentance  on simon's part is indicated by his words, "Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me."

He  did not repent for his sin, but only for the consequences which might bring on him.

The Apostle Paul himself was given the Holy Spirit, before being baptized (in water) for the remission of Sins, by the laying on of Annias's hands (Acts 9:17-18); note Ananias expresses full fellowship with him by the words which he speaks to Paul;  

"Brother Saul", the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Plainly, from the verse above, he received his sight because he had received the Holy Spirit.

And then finally, the Apostle says this;

1 Cor 1
11  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 
Notice please where the emphasis is herein, not in baptism, for this was what caused the contentions here.

If water baptism is all that which is espoused herein by those who put there faith in it,  then it seems Paul would have straightened this matter out, but he makes it cleasr, at verse 16, how important baptism is in regards to the preaching of the word, by which people are saved. Undertsnadng that belief in the preached word was more important than the act of baptism.

He ends it by stating;

1 Cor 12
13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Plainly reffering to the passage I began this post with at    Mat 20:23.


The disciples understood there baptism was likened to the baptism of John,  because they baptized the people with that same baptism while Jesus walked with them, John 4:1-2.

And finally don't kid yourself, those who become children of God, do not because, they have been baptized with water, but because they have received Jesus, since the word is plain to say;

Jhn 1
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

These are born from that incorruptible seed spoken of by Peter;

1 Pet 1
22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

And that baptism which is done not with human hands, is what does it; (Col 2:11-12) the baptism into Christ, which puts on Christ.

Gal 3
26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.



Blessings,  

Petro

[PastorTom]

Baptism is rarely mentioned in the Gospels.  Jesus is said both to have baptized (Jn 3.22) and to have committed baptism to his disciples (Jn 4.2).  The necessity of baptism is stated in Jn 3.5; no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.  The disciples are commanded to make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Mt 28.19).  The word baptism is used metaphorically of the future passion of Jesus (Mk 10.38; Lk 12.50).  The metaphor seems to be based upon baptism as the beginning of a new life or a new state, a crisis.  In Acts baptism is explicitly reported of almost every individual or group who accepts Christianity (Acts 2.38ff).  This baptism is said to be conferred in the name of Jesus (Acts 8.16; 10.48; 19.5); it is unlikely that this phrase indicates the formula employed in baptizing.  It rather indicates that the person baptized receives the name of Jesus (Rev 14.1; 22.4), that is, they accept the claims of Jesus and unite themselves to the group which accepted Jesus as its founder and leader.  Baptism is also called baptism in the Holy Spirit (Mk 1.8; Acts 1.5; 11.16).  This phrase is clearly used metaphorically in Acts 1.5; 11.16; and it is probable that its use in Mk also is metaphorical, signifying the beginning of a new state, a new and critical experience.  Elsewhere the Spirit is received with baptism (Acts 19.5 ff).  For Paul baptism is the Christian's experience of the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus in themselves (Rom 6.3ff; Col 1.12).  Baptism symbolizes expressly not only the beginning of a new life in Christ, but also death to the old Adam or Eve, the old life of sin.  By baptism the Christian is washed, sanctified and made righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God (1 Cor 6.11).  Christ sanctifies the Church, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word (Eph 5.26).  By this experience the Christian is reborn, regenerated (Titus 3.5).  Baptism symbolizes and effects not only the incorporation of the Christian into Christ (Gal 3.27) but also their union with their fellow Christians as members of the one body of Christ (1 Cor 12.13).  The Christian is redeemed through the blood of Jesus Christ and the water of baptism (1 Jn 5.6), to which the Spirit testifies.  The saving power of baptism is illustrated by the ark of Noah, in which all its passengers were saved by water (1 Pt 3.20).

Baptism is the sign of new life through Jesus Christ.  It unites the one baptized with Christ and with his people.  The New Testament scriptures and the liturgy of the Church unfold the meaning of baptism in various images that express the riches of Christ and the gifts of his salvation....  Baptism is participation in Christ's death and resurrection (Rom 6.3-5; Col 2.12); a washing away of sin (1 Cor 6.11); a new birth (Jn 3.5); an enlightenment by Christ (Eph 5.14); a reclothing in Christ (Gal 3.27); a renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3.5); the experience of salvation from the flood (1 Pet 3.20-21); an exodus from bondage (1 Cor 10.1-2) and a liberation into a new humanity in which barriers of division whether of sex or race or social status are transcended (Gal 3.27-28; 1 Cor 12.13).  The images are many but the reality is one.

God's self giving in baptism is in the gift of the Holy Spirit itself.  This is a direct pouring out of God's being, the giver literally is the gift.  This Spirit is part of the whole saving movement of the triune God.  God our Savior saved us through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.  This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 2.4-7).  Upon incorporation into Christ and the community of faith, one experiences the continuing gift of membership in the community of God's life-giving Spirit.

Shalom

[Petro]

Pastor Toms  reply #49

Baptism is rarely mentioned in the Gospels. Jesus is said both to have baptized (Jn 3.22) and to have committed baptism to his disciples (Jn 4.2).

Lets see, those verses;

Jhn 3
22  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Jhn 4
1  When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2  (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples).

You must not have read my last post.  I gave you these verse in my last post..

I think you need to look at these verses, a little closer,  there is no evidence Jesus baptized, with water, but the scriptures do teach it is HE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.  

 

. In Acts baptism is explicitly reported of almost every individual or group who accepts Christianity (Acts 2.38ff).

No argument there.

This baptism is said to be conferred in the name of Jesus (Acts 8.16; 10.48; 19.5); it is unlikely that this phrase indicates the formula employed in baptizing. It rather indicates that the person baptized receives the name of Jesus (Rev 14.1; 22.4), that is, they accept the claims of Jesus and unite themselves to the group which accepted Jesus as its founder and leader. Baptism is also called baptism in the Holy Spirit (Mk 1.8; Acts 1.5; 11.16). This phrase is clearly used metaphorically in Acts 1.5; 11.16; and it is probable that its use in Mk also is metaphorical, signifying the beginning of a new state, a new and critical experience. Elsewhere the Spirit is received with baptism (Acts 19.5 ff). For Paul baptism is the Christian's experience of the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus in themselves (Rom 6.3ff; Col 1.12). Baptism symbolizes expressly not only the beginning of a new life in Christ, but also death to the old Adam or Eve, the old life of sin. By baptism the Christian is washed, sanctified and made righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God (1 Cor 6.11). Christ sanctifies the Church, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word (Eph 5.26).

Please refer to  1 Pet 3
21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This clearly is speaking of the "baptism that saves", washing of water, is not it..

That washing in Eph 5:26 is not physical water, but as you say, metaphorically speaking of the Spirit of God. this made very clearer in;

Titus 3:5   Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Tom,

I feel as though I am wasting my time with you, going back and forth, all these verses I have quoted above,  I gave to you in my last post, you simply ignored them, and are cherry pickling verses, to keep arguing, an issue that cannot be resolved this way.

If you addresssed the verses which have been quoted, to you, in there context, I would be compelled to continue, with, but the fact is you are doing the same thing, mardis, and Ollie do.

You just ignore the scriptures giben you,  and continue arguing, for the sake of arguing..

All good things must come to an end.

I am outta hear, with you, on this issue..

Thanks for your opinions anyhow..

Blessings
Petro