Christian?? - Saved??

[michael_legna]

Only the sheep are Jesus's brothers, these are they that do the will of my Father which is in heaven. Jhn 12:50

How can you claim this - that you must do the will of the Father and in the next breath say we have no free will to do that and we are saved by faith alone.  Pick a side and stay on it please.

Wrong answer,  How about The goats did not do the will of God.

Yes and they are cast aside because of that.  They had no works of mercy/love to keep their faith alive.  You keep proving my point for me.

Wrong again,  don't presume to know what I mean,  the word of God rules herein,  and doesn't need you to interpret it, in your presumption.

I have to presume what you mean as you are always afraid to provide your interpretations for fear of someone showing you how they are wrong or contradictory.  And yes, of course the word of God needs to be interpreted - how else do we understand it?

But the scriptures are clear that by the keeping of the law no flesh will justified in HIS sight. (Rom 3:20), for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

This is refering to keeping the letter of the law in an attempt to merit salvation.  It does not preach against keeping the spirit of the law and thus keeping our faith alive through works of love.

We have to accept Jesus both in His role as sacrificial lamb and in His role as shepherd.  

The result of believing the witness of the Holy Spirit is believeing and accepting Jesus.

No there is a non-answer if I ever saw one.  What does it mean to accept and believe in Christ?  Do we have to accept Him as shepherd to turly believe in Him?  Do we have to follow Him and obey His teachings to be saved?  Do we have to obey the Gospel to be saved?

Correction, it doesn't mean that to you, because you teach man can go straight to believe and bypass obedience.

Man cannot believe anything unless he repents, pure and simple.

I agree and repentance is works.  It is turning ones life around and it must preceed faith but can only happen after grace has been given.

There is a difference between Believe and believe, you just don't know it..because you focus in your free will.  Its the flesh, and the vanity of the natural man, which speaks to you,, instead listening God's Word you re minterpret it according to make it fit your doctrine..

Yes one is faith alone, the kind of believe that demons have and the other is faith made alive and perfected by works.  If you know of a difference between Believe and believe, other than that, I guess I will never know it because you are afraid to provide interpretations along with your scripture references because you will be caught in a mistake.

Read John 10:25-30...............

Here it is but once again you were afraid to provide an interpretation along with your recommendation so I can only guess what it is you see in it that is suppose to illuminate what true belief is.  Certainly nothing here that defines belief.

25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and my Father are one.

No He says we have to believe, but what does it mean to believe?  

I already answered that for you...I know you are unable to understand this, but what can I say, I can only testify to the truth.  

No you never have!  Answer the simple questions I posed above with regard to the roles of Christ we must accept to truly believe and then you will have answered the question.  You can't duck it forever.

[Petro]

michael,

Those who are given to Christ by the Father, are given eternal life by Jesus, they will never perish.

This is not dependent on anything they have doen or will do, but simply trusting and obeying Gods Word.

There is a difference between believing as in trusting and believing as in the type that  is given which saves.

This is a mystery to you, not to me...


Blessings,

Petro

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to The Crusader,

My answer was also yes. Good doctrine and its the word of God.

The Crusader

Thanks Brother! It sure is nice to see your handle (nick) back on Christians Unite. I wish you grace, peace and joy as we celebrate the birth of our precious Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Petro]

author michael_legna

reply by Petro
Only the sheep are Jesus's brothers, these are they that do the will of my Father which is in heaven. Jhn 12:50

reply from michael
How can you claim this - that you must do the will of the Father and in the next breath say we have no free will to do that and we are saved by faith alone.  Pick a side and stay on it please.

In the lite of 1 Cor 2:14, can any man do the will of God??

Only when a man comes to the end of his rope, will realize he cannot do what God commands him to do..

Have you done the will of God?

Petro

[michael_legna]

michael,

Those who are given to Christ by the Father, are given eternal life by Jesus, they will never perish.

This is not dependent on anything they have doen or will do, but simply trusting and obeying Gods Word.

There is a difference between believing as in trusting and believing as in the type that  is given which saves.

This is a mystery to you, not to me...


Blessings,

Petro

I know your position Petro and repeating yourself doesn’t do anything to prove a point that you have not been able to prove through providing scriptures.  If you want to prove your point take the time and effort to give alternative interpretations to those who show verses and interpretations that make you interpretations to the verse you choose appear inconsistent with the totality of scripture.  When you ignore selected verses it makes your position look much weaker.

[michael_legna]

In the lite of 1 Cor 2:14, can any man do the will of God??

Only when a man comes to the end of his rope, will realize he cannot do what God commands him to do..

Have you done the will of God?

This is why I find the idea of deterministic predestination so ridiculous.  By interpreting the scriptures to hold that man “cannot do what God commands” you make God out to be a capricious, unjust tyrant, demanding things that cannot be accomplished.

I know that this is the root of our disagreement and I have waited for you to show me a single verse that required that interpretation.  You have not been able to do so.  I have shown that every verse you provide can be interpreted to fit the Catholic theology which sees God as a loving father who wishes to help us, through a free gift of grace, to be able to serve him as vessels of honor.  That through cooperating with His grace we could return His love.  Instead you reject these alternative interpretations and demand to see Him as one who forces Himself upon us.

And yes I have done the will of God by cooperating with His grace.  I have not always done His will since first receiving that grace but I have tried my best.

Have you done His will?  To be consistent you must answer No.  Because without free will you cannot.  The best you can hope for is that He has done His own will through you.  If He chooses to use you, you are saved and if He chooses not to your are damned.  I hope someday you will face all the hard verses and see that this view of a tyranical God is contrary to a consistent interpretation of scripture in it's entirety.  Until then I will pary for you.

[Petro]

michael,

Those who are given to Christ by the Father, are given eternal life by Jesus, they will never perish.

This is not dependent on anything they have doen or will do, but simply trusting and obeying Gods Word.

There is a difference between believing as in trusting and believing as in the type that  is given which saves.

This is a mystery to you, not to me...


Blessings,

Petro

I know your position Petro and repeating yourself doesn’t do anything to prove a point that you have not been able to prove through providing scriptures.

I am not the one that doesn't believe Jesus, you are...

Out of one side of your mouth you say, I believe, believe what?

You certainly do not believe Jesus saves eternally, this is clear.

You deny His very words, this speaks clearly on  who it is you depend for your salvation, and its not the shed blood of Jesus.
you rely on yourself both clinch the deal, and if you do not wink, nothing can happen, and should you desire to sin, you can simply do it, and come back to repentance,

He says He gives ETERNAl LIFE,, you say you can lose it, if this is true you simply never had it, pure an simple.

But since you have never considered the verses I have given you (which is evidenced by you ignoring the words) that reinforce the statement) "and they shall never perish" won't make what you say is true, TRUE.

Here is the verse in its entirety again, for you.

I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
  I and my Father are one.(Jhn 10:25-30)

If you want to prove your point take the time and effort to give alternative interpretations to those who show verses and interpretations that make you interpretations to the verse you choose appear inconsistent with the totality of scripture.  When you ignore selected verses it makes your position look much weaker.

Jesus own words don't need to be interpreted to make them fit, ones theology.

So here is the proof you ask for, which ought to prove to you, you remain in unbelief, you are wrong...you simply do not believe the words of the savior, regardless of what you say..out of the other side of your mouth.

He that heareth my word, and trust on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jhn 5:24,

Quit ignoring the scriptures I am giving you.

The word "Trust" used in this verse,  is a form of belief, with- out commitment on the part of man (you may cross refernce, it with the same word 1 Th 2:4) this is all God requires of men.

He will bring them to full faith in conformance to His perfect will and plan He has for their life.

You, simply have not come to this place and never will as long as you reject the Words of God.

I hope this is not true, believe the gospel and you shall be saved.

Blessings,

Petro

PS  By the way, you are wrong about your church teaching free will for 1500 years, this man centered doctrine known as PeligianISM, was rejected at the Carthaginian Synod of 412 AD , but it has lived on in the form of semi-pelagianISM, and you are testimony of it, within your institution inspite of Pelgius himself being excomunicated as a heretic, for teaching the doctrines which underpin your theology.

If you get the history straight you may, come to the truth.  

[michael_legna]

You certainly do not believe Jesus saves eternally, this is clear.

You deny His very words, this speaks clearly on  who it is you depend for your salvation, and its not the shed blood of Jesus.
you rely on yourself both clinch the deal, and if you do not wink, nothing can happen, and should you desire to sin, you can simply do it, and come back to repentance,

He says He gives ETERNAl LIFE,, you say you can lose it, if this is true you simply never had it, pure an simple.

But since you have never considered the verses I have given you (which is evidenced by you ignoring the words) that reinforce the statement) "and they shall never perish" won't make what you say is true, TRUE.

I do believe that Christ saves eternally, once we endure and face the final judgement.  But prior to that time we can still lose our salvation.  It all depends on when you interpret scripture to be saying when eternity begins.   I also do believe that man plays a role in His own salvation it is the only approach that shows God as  just God.  Your approach makes Him either capriciously unjust or ultimately merciful.  Either way you deny His justice and that is a false Gospel of its own.

Jesus own words don't need to be interpreted to make them fit, ones theology.

That is nonsense, of course they need to be interpreted.  Every communication of every sort needs to be interpreted.

So here is the proof you ask for, which ought to prove to you, you remain in unbelief, you are wrong...you simply do not believe the words of the savior, regardless of what you say..out of the other side of your mouth.

He that heareth my word, and trust on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jhn 5:24,

Quit ignoring the scriptures I am giving you.

I have responded to EVERY verse you have offered, go back through the posts and see for yourself.  It is you who have ignored the vast majority of the scripture I have provided to you.  But I am not offended, you don't bother to interpret even the ones you offer yourself.  That has to be why you misunderstand so many of them taking someone else word for what they truly mean.

The word "Trust" used in this verse,  is a form of belief, with- out commitment on the part of man (you may cross refernce, it with the same word 1 Th 2:4) this is all God requires of men.

He will bring them to full faith in conformance to His perfect will and plan He has for their life.

Finally something that has at lease a vague semblance of analysis, such as it is.  Unfortunately it once again doesn't address the issue.  We are not questioning God's sovereignty in this issue, we are questioning our own fidelity.  I trust God to save me, but I also trust Him to be good to His word and His word, through the Gospel, is that we must endure and if we don't endure we will lose our salvation.

PS  By the way, you are wrong about your church teaching free will for 1500 years, this man centered doctrine known as PeligianISM, was rejected at the Carthaginian Synod of 412 AD , but it has lived on in the form of semi-pelagianISM, and you are testimony of it, within your institution inspite of Pelgius himself being excomunicated as a heretic, for teaching the doctrines which underpin your theology.

If you get the history straight you may, come to the truth.  

Well Peligianism differs significantly from Calvinism if you get to the roots of the two.  Calvin himself considered Peligius a heretic because Peligius denied both orignial sin and Christian grace.  So I wouldn't be too quick to jump on that bandwagon.

[Petro]

michael

I do believe that Christ saves eternally, once we endure and face the final judgement.  But prior to that time we can still lose our salvation.  It all depends on when you interpret scripture to be saying when eternity begins.  I also do believe that man plays a role in His own salvation it is the only approach that shows God as  just God.  Your approach makes Him either capriciously unjust or ultimately merciful.  Either way you deny His justice and that is a false Gospel of its own.

No you don't, because scripture is clear the those who are covered by His blood are born again

"I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Those who first trust in Christ are beneficiaries of the NEW Covenant, it is in this present life, and we are beneficiaries of these promises now.

If you are one of those who is working to earn your gift, you are still under the wrath of God, because the fact is their is nothing one can do to merit the gift of salvation.

It simply is a man made teaching that has all the earmaks of the Father of Lies, didn't he say "You shall not surely die", "you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

You know good from evil?, is it good to despise what God says He gives freely, by claiming you must earn it.

Forget your argument that you must accept the gift, it is what you do asfterward that shows plainly what you really believe, you believe that you have to earn it, you don't presently possess it.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  Let me encourage you to put your faith in What God has done for you, not, what you have to do for yourself.

That is nonsense, of course they need to be interpreted.  Every communication of every sort needs to be interpreted.

You interpret them to your damnation, if this is the case.

How do you interpret the following verses;

Heb 10
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I guess, you believe God doesn't forget your sins and iniquities, huh??

It is clear you disagree with the apostle, who wrote this, and since you diagree with Jesus' own words, your well on your way to striking out.  

The only thing left for someone in this position is to die in unbelief.. God forbid.

Put your faith in Gods Word.

Well Peligianism differs significantly from Calvinism if you get to the roots of the two.  Calvin himself considered Peligius a heretic because Peligius denied both orignial sin and Christian grace.

You said your a Roman Catholic, what good is it to say that, when you don't even believe your own institutions religious teachings, the Roman Catholic church, excommunicated Peligius as a heretic, and sided with Augustine, the same teaching od peligius is now taught - original sin, it is called semi-peligiasnISM, thought your church denies it.

I may be illiterate, but better a child of God than knowning how to read and write and be spiritually blind and dead.

And it is only according to His Grace and Mercy by which He made Saving Faith available to me.

Praise Him,

Blessings,

Petro

PS, Check your history, Calvin taught what Augustine expounded.  and he (Augustine) was a Roamn Catholic.

Blessings...

[michael_legna]

I do believe that Christ saves eternally, once we endure and face the final judgement.  But prior to that time we can still lose our salvation.  It all depends on when you interpret scripture to be saying when eternity begins.  I also do believe that man plays a role in His own salvation it is the only approach that shows God as  just God.  Your approach makes Him either capriciously unjust or ultimately merciful.  Either way you deny His justice and that is a false Gospel of its own.

No you don't, because scripture is clear the those who are covered by His blood are born again

You are doing it again claiming things expecting people to take your word for the things of God without supporting it with the word of God.  Show me that in scripture, so we can see what precisely it says.  

I hope you don't think it is in the verses you offered.  Because these don't talk about being covered by His blood or being born again.  I can't decide if your cute little trick of offering them without verse references is a new low in laziness or you really knew in advance they weren't applicable and knew that would be evident by the context you pulled them out of.

"I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Heb 8:8-13 where Paul is quoting from Jer 31:33 but it does not say that we will be completely obedient to this law written in our hearts.  Don't you still sin Petro, even with the law written in your heart?  When you view it in light of Jeremiah you see that it is being contrasted with the Old Covenant where one attempted to merit salvation by following the letter of the law.  It is saying that the works intended to satisfy the ordinances of the law to merit salvation will not be followed by those under the New Covenant.  The new law will be in our heart, where we love.  By it we will fulfill the spirit of the law with works of love, perfecting and keeping our faith alive.

Forget your argument that you must accept the gift, it is what you do asfterward that shows plainly what you really believe, you believe that you have to earn it, you don't presently possess it.

So that is your answer forget to open the door to Christ when He knocks?  I will never forget to be ready like some foolish virgin who doesn't have enough oil for their lamp.

How do you interpret the following verses;

Heb 10
12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13  From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I guess, you believe God doesn't forget your sins and iniquities, huh??

Yes He does if we confess them. 1 John 1:9  You see there is no verse that puts it all on God, we always play a part and have a role in our salvation.   You are just to blinded by the preconceived notion of deterministic predestination to see that.

It is clear you disagree with the apostle, who wrote this, and since you diagree with Jesus' own words, your well on your way to striking out.  

You have never shown me to have disagreed with even one verse in scripture, only with your interpretations, ones you were ashamed to even voice aloud preferring instead to claim they support your strange doctrine by implication.

You said your a Roman Catholic, what good is it to say that, when you don't even believe your own institutions religious teachings, the Roman Catholic church, excommunicated Peligius as a heretic, and sided with Augustine, the same teaching od peligius is now taught - original sin, it is called semi-peligiasnISM, thought your church denies it.

You just aren't reading my posts very carefully.  I never supported Peligius in any of them.  You also don't know your history very well.  Peligius claimed there was no such thing as Original Sin or Christian Grace, he certainly didn't support the idea of original sin.   For deny them he was denounced by the Catholic Church and in my argument I extended that to indicate even someone as far off the main trail of orthodoxy as Calvin saw that Peligius was wrong on these points; and so, you should not be so quick to claim him as a forefather to your doctrines.  Are you claiming that Calvin did not teach the idea of original sin and christian grace?  Better look to your own church doctrines if your think that.

PS, Check your history, Calvin taught what Augustine expounded.  and he (Augustine) was a Roamn Catholic.

Complete and utter nonsense, once again offered and claimed without proof.  The Catholic Church claims Augustine as a Doctor of the Church meaning that his teaching are without error.  If Calvin truly agreed with Augustine the Catholic Church would not view Calvin as a heretic.  No, Calvin did not teach the same doctrine regarding predestination as Augustine did, as well as disagreeing on a number of other issues.

[Petro]

hael,

You must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(Jhn 1:1-21)


Blessings,
Petro

[Brother Love]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

There are a ton of labels people keep tacking onto themselves and others. If a person sincerely made the following statement, would they be a Christian and Saved?
________________________

I believe in One God, Almighty God, the creator of all life and everything that is seen or unseen in all existence.

I believe that Almighty God is a Holy Trinity, yet one God: (1) God, the Father, (2) God, the Son (Jesus Christ), and (3) God, the Holy Spirit.

I believe that all men sin, possess no righteousness of their own, fall far short of acceptance by Almighty God, can do no work or deed to make themselves acceptable to God, and are doomed to the curse of sin and death unless a Saviour intervenes on their behalf.

I believe that Almighty God sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to be born of a virgin, take the form of a man, and live a Holy life without sin. I believe that Jesus Christ was convicted and sentenced to death for sins He did not commit. In fact, I believe that Jesus Christ was crucified and suffered agony and death for our sins and in our place.

I believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, arose from the dead on the third day, and ascended back into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father as the Lord and Saviour of all who will believe in Him, confess their sins, request forgiveness for their sins, and ask Him to come into their heart as their personal Lord and Saviour. I believe that Jesus Christ is the only perfect sacrifice for my sins, that His blood washes away my sins, and Jesus Christ is the only Gift I can accept for eternal Salvation. I believe the Gift of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour demonstrates the matchless Grace and Love of Almighty God. I could never pay for or earn this precious Gift from Almighty God, so all Glory, Honor, and Thanks will be to Almighty God through my precious Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Yes, I do believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, very God, and I believe that he died on the cross for my sins. I believe that Jesus Christ arose from the dead on the third day and is the ONLY Living Lord and Saviour of man. I know that I am nothing but a worthless sinner, but Jesus Christ loves me, gave himself for me, and suffered agony and death in my place. The conviction, sentence,  and punishment were mine, but Jesus Christ paid it all for me.  I have confessed my sins to Jesus Christ and prayed that Jesus Christ would forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. I asked Jesus Christ to come into my heart as my personal Lord and Saviour.

I believe that Almighty God sent His Holy Spirit to baptize and cleanse my soul of all unrighteousness, live in my heart forever, and place His Seal on my heart that sets me apart as a child of God forever. My sins have been forgiven, and the blood of Jesus Christ makes me acceptable to Almighty God. I am worthy and acceptable ONLY in Jesus Christ because it is HIS righteousness, not mine, that makes me worthy and acceptable.  Now I belong to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour. He lives in me and I live in HIM forever. I belong to an Eternal Church not made with human hands, the Church which is The Body of Christ. Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable Gift, Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour, my Salvation! To God be All Glory forever.  AMEN!
_________________________

Nothing added or taken away - Is this person a Christian and Saved? If no, please explain why not.

Love In Christ,
Tom

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AMEN!!!!

Reposted By Brother Love

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