Christian?? - Saved??

[avemaria]

Petro - why not answering my question directly instead of hiding behind your verse slinging mannerisms and anti-Catholic inuendos hmm?

Is it ok to say that one person is saved or another is not?  YES OR NO!
You are such a typical prototype of born again christians and anti-Catholics in your avoidance and diversion tactics.

Just answer the question!

[michael_legna]

What and How one worships, and the theology one esposues, is what reveals the heart, there is no need for anyone to go any further.. when sees a goat from a distance, there is no question one is looking at a goat, one may not be able to discern who is a goat, but when one hears their gospel espoused by goats, it leaves no doubt what they are..

Petro

Once again Petro you have the theology all wrong on this.  Goats and sheep are not distinguished by the gospel they espouse.  They are distinguished based on their works.  Look at Matthew 25:31-46

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I don't know how you managed to interpret this scripture to turn from works to gospel because it is never mentioned even once.  So I guess even up close it appears you cannot tell sheep from goats, let alone from a distance.

[nChrist]

Petro - why not answering my question directly instead of hiding behind your verse slinging mannerisms and anti-Catholic inuendos hmm?

Is it ok to say that one person is saved or another is not?  YES OR NO!
You are such a typical prototype of born again christians and anti-Catholics in your avoidance and diversion tactics.

Just answer the question!

Oklahoma Howdy to Avemaria,

This thread is not about denominations, tags, and labels. In fact, there is no mention of any of man's labels in the question and subject of this thread. Are you trying to divert the subject of this thread to man's labels and tags? If so, please don't.

In Christ,
Tom

[avemaria]

There are a ton of labels people keep tacking onto themselves and others. If a person sincerely made the following statement, would they be a Christian and Saved?

You are asking us to determine if, based on what you wrote after this statement, a person would be considered a christian and/or saved.

I am answering your question by saying this question HAS NO DEFINITIVE ANSWER because we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT judge another person as being saved or not.  SO this is not diverting the topic at all.  It's answering your question which is more I can say for you who refuse to answer mine.

[nChrist]

There are a ton of labels people keep tacking onto themselves and others. If a person sincerely made the following statement, would they be a Christian and Saved?

You are asking us to determine if, based on what you wrote after this statement, a person would be considered a Christian and/or saved.

I am answering your question by saying this question HAS NO DEFINITIVE ANSWER because we CANNOT and SHOULD NOT judge another person as being saved or not.  SO this is not diverting the topic at all.  It's answering your question which is more I can say for you who refuse to answer mine.

Oklahoma Howdy to Avemaria,

Are you saying that you have no idea what to tell someone about how to be saved without using man's denominational tags and labels?

In Christ,
Tom

[Ambassador4Christ]

QUOTE Tom: Oklahoma Howdy to All,

There are a ton of labels people keep tacking onto themselves and others. If a person sincerely made the following statement, would they be a Christian and Saved?
________________________

I believe in One God, Almighty God, the creator of all life and everything that is seen or unseen in all existence.

I believe that Almighty God is a Holy Trinity, yet one God: (1) God, the Father, (2) God, the Son (Jesus Christ), and (3) God, the Holy Spirit.

I believe that all men sin, possess no righteousness of their own, fall far short of acceptance by Almighty God, can do no work or deed to make themselves acceptable to God, and are doomed to the curse of sin and death unless a Saviour intervenes on their behalf.

I believe that Almighty God sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to be born of a virgin, take the form of a man, and live a Holy life without sin. I believe that Jesus Christ was convicted and sentenced to death for sins He did not commit. In fact, I believe that Jesus Christ was crucified and suffered agony and death for our sins and in our place.

I believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, arose from the dead on the third day, and ascended back into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father as the Lord and Saviour of all who will believe in Him, confess their sins, request forgiveness for their sins, and ask Him to come into their heart as their personal Lord and Saviour. I believe that Jesus Christ is the only perfect sacrifice for my sins, that His blood washes away my sins, and Jesus Christ is the only Gift I can accept for eternal Salvation. I believe the Gift of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour demonstrates the matchless Grace and Love of Almighty God. I could never pay for or earn this precious Gift from Almighty God, so all Glory, Honor, and Thanks will be to Almighty God through my precious Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Yes, I do believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, very God, and I believe that he died on the cross for my sins. I believe that Jesus Christ arose from the dead on the third day and is the ONLY Living Lord and Saviour of man. I know that I am nothing but a worthless sinner, but Jesus Christ loves me, gave himself for me, and suffered agony and death in my place. The conviction, sentence,  and punishment were mine, but Jesus Christ paid it all for me.  I have confessed my sins to Jesus Christ and prayed that Jesus Christ would forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. I asked Jesus Christ to come into my heart as my personal Lord and Saviour.

I believe that Almighty God sent His Holy Spirit to baptize and cleanse my soul of all unrighteousness, live in my heart forever, and place His Seal on my heart that sets me apart as a child of God forever. My sins have been forgiven, and the blood of Jesus Christ makes me acceptable to Almighty God. I am worthy and acceptable ONLY in Jesus Christ because it is HIS righteousness, not mine, that makes me worthy and acceptable.  Now I belong to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour. He lives in me and I live in HIM forever. I belong to an Eternal Church not made with human hands, the Church which is The Body of Christ. Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable Gift, Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour, my Salvation! To God be All Glory forever.  AMEN!
_________________________

Nothing added or taken away - Is this person a Christian and Saved? If no, please explain why not.

Love In Christ,
Tom

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN Brother I Voted Y-E-S
The only people who would vote no, would be the people that are in Cults, like the Mormon, the Roman catholic religion and JW's

[itsalldone]

Blessings via the WORD of GOD,

It is a lamp unto my feet!

I am not "takin" sides! Nope cannot do that!

But I want to know if you ALL would take the time to explain.... each of the following verses .... AS being a God inspired definition of a  True "Christian" according these verses.

Galatians 5: 16   This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh And they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.[/b]  (Please forgive me, but that is my certain definition of a true Christian!)

Rom. 6: 22   But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (Sure sounds like a true servant of GOD with holy fruit. there!)

Ok Explain!
And as for the judgment debate upon others, in the faith, so to say!
Verses  1
Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?[/b]
3   Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?[/b]
4   If then you have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. [/b]
5   I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? No, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
The Least esteemed of the church are to judge "the smallest matters?" What? Yes that GOD inspired work said  The saints; shall judge between the "brethren?" I speak to your shame, if there is none among you able to judge between the brethren! If only you be wise according to the will, of the WORD of GOD! Huh?

I already know about the speck and the log in the own eye, (before conversion and born again) stuff, so we can skip that milk and get into the meat, right here!

Next verse # 2, on judgment calls, 1 Tim 5: 20  Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (sounds like a direct command to put the fear of GOD in the rest And the one who sins)

Next, # 3, Proverbs 27:5 , Open rebuke is better than secret love. (What is better than secret love?)

#4, Titus 1:13,  This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith! (Just what is a TRUE witness)

# 5, Titus 2:15 , These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

# 6, Timothy 4:2   Preach the WORD; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.  (Did that havre a certain order to it? like 1) reprove 2) rebuke and than exhort with long suffering and DOCTRINE)

NOW what ya think!  

I believe What they know in part they prophesy in part.

[avemaria]

Are you saying that you have no idea what to tell someone about how to be saved without using man's denominational tags and labels?

THis was not the question was it?

I am saying that *I* will never look at a person, even someone I know well, that either
A) Yes he is saved or
B) No he is not saved he is lost.

For who am I to say what is in someone's heart.  A person can claim to be "saved" and have "assurance" of said salvation and turn away from God at any moment and deny Him.  So, I will never "know" what's in a person's heart.  Therefore, you CANNOT know if a person is "saved" or not.

Is it ok and right to say that this person is "saved" and this person is not "saved"?  Why not answer this question. Answering a question with a question and no clarification is weak.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Avemaria,

Is it ok and right to say that this person is "saved" and this person is not "saved"?  Why not answer this question. Answering a question with a question and no clarification is weak.

Let's just make this simple. What would you tell a person who asked you, "How can I be saved?"

In Christ,
Tom

[avemaria]

Try answering my question.  THe fact that you continually avoid it and use diversion tactics by answering a question with a questions shows you to be very weak theologically.  Why are you afraid to answer the question?

I repeat AGAIN:

Is it ok and right to say that this person is "saved" and this person is not "saved"?  Why not answer this question. Answering a question with a question and no clarification is weak.

[sincereheart]

Why not make it even simpler.....

avemaria, Are you assured of YOUR salvation?

[Petro]

What and How one worships, and the theology one esposues, is what reveals the heart, there is no need for anyone to go any further.. when sees a goat from a distance, there is no question one is looking at a goat, one may not be able to discern who is a goat, but when one hears their gospel espoused by goats, it leaves no doubt what they are..

Petro

Once again Petro you have the theology all wrong on this.  Goats and sheep are not distinguished by the gospel they espouse.  They are distinguished based on their works.  Look at Matthew 25:31-46

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I don't know how you managed to interpret this scripture to turn from works to gospel because it is never mentioned even once.  So I guess even up close it appears you cannot tell sheep from goats, let alone from a distance.

michael,

You said;

Once again Petro you have the theology all wrong on this.  Goats and sheep are not distinguished by the gospel they espouse.  They are distinguished based on their works.  Look at Matthew 25:31-46

You are smoke screening like the others who hold to your doctrines.

I pointed out to you what is wrong with your FAITH WORKS gospel, in that day those who reject the Gospel of GRACE, will be judged according to their works.

These are they that do not enter in at the door,

Jhn 10
1  ......but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2  But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3  ............... and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

The goats follow the voice of strangers.............

This is why those that perish are goats, their works did not produce anything for them, though they invoked the name of the Lord, and did something.

They placed their faith in their works.

Now notice where the goats wind up;

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So there you have it, you disagree with the scripture.

Blessings,
Petro

[Petro]

Petro - why not answering my question directly instead of hiding behind your verse slinging mannerisms and anti-Catholic inuendos hmm?

Is it ok to say that one person is saved or another is not?  YES OR NO!
You are such a typical prototype of born again christians and anti-Catholics in your avoidance and diversion tactics.

Just answer the question!

avem....

Ask your self is it right to lead people to God or away from God??

Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.  Acts 4:19-20


Petro

[michael_legna]

Michael,

You are smoke screening like the others who hold to your doctrines.

In what way is my pointing out your error in the use of a scripture smokescreening as you put it?  If you have a legitimate scripture that shows what you claim then lets see it but don't pull out a verse that says one thing and claim it says something else.

It is you who are putting up a smoke screen by changing your claims from goats being distinguished by the gospel to the idea that those of this gospel are those that do not enter in at the door as soon as someone points out the error of your interpretation.  If you wanted to be honest in your analysis you would either defend you interpretation or admit your mistake instead of changing your analogyto avoid the embarassment.

I pointed out to you what is wrong with your FAITH WORKS gospel, in that day those who reject the Gospel of GRACE, will be judged according to their works.

You have pointed out nothing - you have claimed all kinds of things but never offered any scripture that truly supported the claims when a detailed analysis was done.

These are they that do not enter in at the door,

Jhn 10
1  ......but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2  But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3  ............... and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Now we get a chance to look at your new approach to the issue, your next smokescreen as it were.   The one that enters in through the door is the shepherd.  The stranger, thief and robber is the one who climbeth up some other way.  But this stranger is being contrasted to the shepherd not the sheep, this stranger is not goats.  You have mixed your metaphors and this sloppy type of analysis is the reason you always seem to end up with wrong conclusions, or at least cannot offer reasonable support for the ones you hold.

The goats follow the voice of strangers.............

Now you are just putting words in the mouth of scripture.  This idea appears nowhere in the bible.  It says the sheep will not follow him but it does not say the goats will.  You can just slop different parables together willy nilly and expect to get sound doctrine out as a result.

This is why those that perish are goats, their works did not produce anything for them, though they invoked the name of the Lord, and did something.

This time you are mixing your parables.  Those who cried Lord , Lord and cast out demons in His name were not goats, nowhere in scripture are they identified as goats, you have confused three different stories.  Besides that, look why those who cast out demons in His name were cast aside - it was because they did not do the will of the Father.  See Matt 7:21  What is the will of the Father?  That we believe in His Son AND love one another.  See 1 John 3:23  That is because love fulfills the the law.  See Matt 22:39 and Rom 13:10  It fulfills the law in such a way as to bring life not death therefore it is fulfilling the spirit of the law (which is the proper response by which to accept the free gift) and not the letter of the law (which was how poeple before grace tried to merit their salvation) which only brings death. See 2 Cor 3:6

They placed their faith in their works.

No they did not - they placed their faith in JUST their works.  There is a big difference from trying to merit your salvation strictly through works and accepting the free gift through faith and works together fulfilling the spirit of the law.

Now notice where the goats wind up;

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

No one is arguing where the goats end up - pay attention - we are arguing about who the goats represent, and you have gotten it wrong three times now.

So there you have it, you disagree with the scripture.

You get the interpretation wrong and somehow I am disagreeing with scripture?  Hardly!

[avemaria]

Curious to me that none of you will say yes or no.  This means you are not certain of what the answer is.

Is it ok to say "This person is saved, and that person is not saved?"

Either you don't know the answer (which doesn't surprise me) or you don't want to say because by doing so you will be admitting to the sin of presumption.

I gather the latter.

No need to answer now.  I get your point.  You are hiding behind your doctrine (wait, which of the 33,000+ Protestant denominational doctrines would that be??) and giving me a typical Fundamentalist response which is a NON-ANSWER.

PRaise God I am Catholic and remember these words from 1 Peter 3:15 "15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you."

Apparently you are not "always ready" huh?