Subverters of Souls

[Ambassador4Christ]

Bro. John,

Apparently I have caused you offence, and I assure you that no offence was intended.

I do not consider the faith to believe that God is a work, or calling on the Lord in faith a work as it were, because the very faith by which I believe is a gift.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

I don't know if you have read this entire thread or not so if I repeat a little forgive me.

 I am not saying, nor has it been said, that one should not keep His commandments, but rather what does that mean?

Does keeping His commandments mean following the 10 commandments and the Law of the Old Covenant, or is it following the Nature, the Spirit, that contains that same righteous Character because it written in the heart of the believer? Not on stone seperate, apart and unattainable, but now, because of what Jesus has done, is it who we are in Him?

 I believe it is the latter.

What Law am I suggesting is voided?

What Paul said. The Old Covenant. Not that the Old covenant was not God's word, but not His final Word. The Old Covenant was a shadow, the New Covenant (Jesus) is the Light.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2: 14 -17.

Now some would say that it is only the ceremonial laws that Paul is dealing with, but biblically this a distiction that Paul doesn't make.

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

What was written on stone was the 10, and Paul says that it's glory was done away.

Further indication that the 10 were not considered separate from the rest of the Old Covenant is found in Hebrews.

"Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant"
Hebrews 9:1-4.

So we understand that not only were the 10 commandments not only part of the Old Covenant, but indeed were the very heart of it. As well they should have been the very words and character of God written on stone fore-shadowing that same righteousness being written on the stony heart of man to make something new as Ezekiel foretold.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Ezekiel 36:26.

The righteousness of the law, the 10, is established in the hearts of believers who are living it because it is their nature, who they are, and not an external law.

The Gospel of Jesus is not mine but His, and I just believe it, which in turn (because of the Life that He has imparted to me) makes me want to live accordingly.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17.

My "real issue" in this conversation has been what I said it was - the sufficiency of Christ for righteousness.

I believe the "Everlasting Gospel" and the "Everlasting Covenant" to be one and the same thing, and found in the Person of Christ Jesus.
 
"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
Matthew 20:28

And how do we observe these things? I think all of this can be summed up by the words of Jesus in another place.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29

The Master's perfection is not the issue, but ours, as it is found only in Him, is. Some don't believe that His grace is sufficient. I disagree.

My purpose has been to declare the sufficiency of Christ, and that Christ alone is all that is necessary, is the only thing that makes anyone righteous. Not the law, not another commandment, just Jesus.

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? " Galatians 3: 2-3.

"Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." Romans 8:34

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8: 38-39.

To add anything to Jesus for salvation (or "maintaining" salvation) is to take away from His sufficiency, to say that His cross was not enough for forgiveness, and that His life is not enough for righteousness.

I trust Him. That trust causes me to walk in Love...which fulfills the law.

I trust Him alone.

In His Grace...

 




 

DITTO  

[John the Baptist]

Bro. John,

The only condition in John 3:15 is belief.

*****
John here:
BELIEF? 'i' agree with this. We dis/agree on what BELIEFE CONTAINS!  

The WORD TEACHES *EVERLASTING COVENANT! + AND ='s *EVERLASTING GOSPEL!
FAITH & WORKS, OR BELIEF & WORKS OF LOVE! AND THEN THE AMOUNT OF LOVE, HUH! With Rev. 3 'simering' type.
Yet, it sounds like you are saying that any amount of 'love' or 'belief' or 'faith' will do the trick, while the Master says that, that TRICK is [SICKENING TO HIM AND WILL BE SPEWED OUT!]  

True Everlasting Gospel OR Faith includes ALL SCRIPTURE, not a 'promised' verse here & an promised verse there, without the EVERLASTING COVENANT CONDITIONS! 2 im. 3:16.
The COVENANT & GOSPEL ARE THE SAME! They just both DEVELOPE as the ETERNAL PLAN mature in a free choice for or against truth. (procede forward)

Some-what like the 'same' sin of 1 John 5:16-17, with a starting point & an conditional ending. Try Psalms 19:13. (it is still our decision & ALL provisions have eternally been been known & decreed & supplied "IN CHRIST". For? for the WORKING end of Mature CHARACTER, to be SAFE this time, to save! Na. 1:9)

BELIEF? Again, the Lord asks the question that when He comes the second time, will He find FAITH on earth? (Faith, Belief, Love)  

And you already posted that.. "Of course I don't believe" in referance to Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15's verses pertaining to the Everlasting Covenant.
So, what need is there of going further in explaination? (Faith on earth?-Is God a liar in Eccl.? Hardly!)  

If one could BELIEVE God's Words here, (your very first verse!) it would simplify the Gospel! And having read on through your post i ask, how can one dive into the water (BELIEF) when one does not know how to swim? Try Heb. 5's ones.

In the Master's Word (all of it) He tells us what is NOT to be repeated. He does this because there are [but few times] that this is to happen. One such time is the world flood. Another is that sin will not arise a [second] time. And the rain & the sun is another PROMISE that is un/conditional.

Notice Matt. 24:14's promise now? Do you believe it? FAITH?
Gospel into ALL the world & then SHALL THE END COME]?
Now i am trying to have you SEE that Paul BELIEVED GODS WORD, [ALL OF IT]! He UNDERSTOOD OLD TESTAMENT TRUTHS from Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. If he did NOT DO SO, his FAITH OR BELIEF would have been shipwrecked, even if Paul might have overcome his ignorance, but what about ALL of the other weaker ones 'in belief' of these 'believers'?

Here is what God is talking about, Christ stated PLAINLY THAT HE WOULD COME WHEN THE GOSPEL WENT INTO ALL OF THE WORLD AS A WITNESS....(In Matt. 24:14)

And then He did not come! why? Here is the verse:

"But I say, HAVE THEY NOT ALL HEARD? *YES VERILY, THEIR SOUND WENT INTO [*ALL THE EARTH], and their Words unto [*THE ENDS OF THE WORLD]." Rom. 10:18.

And yet, you tell me that you DO NOT BELIEVE Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 is talking about the GODHEADS EVERLASTING COVENANT. Notice what THEY SAY:

"The THING THAT [HATH BEEN IT IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE];
(sin in heaven! God says, not me! Do 'you' *BELIEVE IT?)
and that which [IS DONE IS THAT THAT SHALL BE DONE]:
(EVERLASTING GOSPEL & EVERLASTING COVENANT) AND THERE IS *NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN". (NAW, LORD, I can not [believe] it! (FAITH)

Starting with the first killer on earth?? Cain & his rebellion? Man's first (type) of creation? Why that would mean that you are telling us that Luciffer was Your FIRST of creation? (and the other world's' of Heb.?) And a Virgin denomination BOTH apostasizing? (Rev. 2:5) That would mean that Rev. 3 would have the SAME HISTORY as of Israel of old!? Well?? lets read the next Eccl. verse, verse 10 ibide.

"Is there ANYTHING NEW, whereof it may be said, SEE THIS IS NEW? (please take note! You say that you do not BELIEVE this. But NOTICE THAT GOD DID NOT WAIT FOR YOUR ANSWER! *HE, THEY, THE *GODHEAD ANSWERED IT BEFORE any LAODICEAN could garbel it up belief/wise!

Did God make an mistake? Hardly! But for the ones that do not have 'belief' when He comes the second time, perhaps they need to read the verse in chapter 3:15 ibide. for their mature finished belief? It says:

"That which HATH BEEN *IS NOW; (created perfect? Tested? Adam & Eve, OTHER WORLD's' (S) as *TWICE stated in Heb.?)
and that *WHICH HATH BEEN *IS NOW; and [*GOD REQUIRETH THAT WHICH *IS PAST.."

And seeing that 'i' am spinning my wheels on this forum, let me just say that God is TELLING YOU WHAT [*YOUR] FINAL TESTING WILL BE! (The professed Christian *WORLD that is, not the 1 Peter 4:17 ones) And you cann find the 666 thing recorded in Exodus 16:verses 4 & verse 28 just before we are to enter [our] land of Canaan! v. 35 ibide. (history repeated!)

And 'your' remaining un/Coventanted workless 'belief' below?  It  is D-E-A-D- FAITH being alone! James 2:17

End of John remarks
     
******

They should not perish if they believe, which I've established in other posts is by faith, which itself should not be construed as a work as it too is the gift of God.


In John 3:17 that "the world through Him might be saved " is again in reference to belief...by faith..the gift of God.

My second question is reference to your previous statement:

John the Baptist (meaning of course you the poster here) said, "I do not believe that the Rent Vail Voided out the [COMBINED] EVERLASTING COVENANT. But the way was made into the second faze of it. The Everlasting heavenly Most Holy place, where the ARK is still there! (Rev. 11:19)"

Scripturally, why do you not see two covenants, and how do you combine them?

The specific verses that I am referring to in 2 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 8 are the ones that I have quoted in previous posts. I'm not sure if you are reading all of the posts, but I think there are some things to address in them.

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

I am glad to address the verses and issues you bring up biblically, as I have been doing, but how about you keep the ball for a little bit?

Your straight-forward response to these verses, and my other posts, is appreciated.

If I don't make it back beforehand, have a good holiday week-end.

In His Grace....

[psalmistsinger]

Bro. John,

I said that I did not believe that the Eccl. passage was in reference to the New Covenant for as God said in Jeremiah,

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" Jeremiah 31:31.

Revelation 3 is not to individual believers, but to churches, and I have addressed this in other posts, along with many of the other things you have mentioned.

Actually I think I may be the one spinning my wheels here   , but  please read my previous posts and respond to those answers biblically if you wish.

About, oh, 4 or 5 posts back from this one I asked some questions that I would still appreciate if you would answer plainly and scripturally.

For convenience sake I will repeat them here - but please read my other posts for the answers to much of what you've said.

The questions that I asked you to respond to a ways back are:

1. How is trusting Jesus for life a "dead", or another, gospel when this is clearly what Jesus (who came that we might have Life, and Life more abundantly) taught?

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

A plain, straight-forward , biblical answer to each is appreciated.

Thanks brother,

In His Grace....

[John the Baptist]

Bro. John,

I said that I did not believe that the Eccl. passage was in reference to the New Covenant for as God said in Jeremiah,

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" Jeremiah 31:31.

Revelation 3 is not to individual believers, but to churches, and I have addressed this in other posts, along with many of the other things you have mentioned.

******
John here: I agree! The denomination is spewed out. (SICKENING) If you read from Rev. 3:7-17 you will find one of the seven churches is the 'synagogue of Satan'. One is 'kept from the hour of temptation' (the 'final' test for the whole world) & the other is SPEWED OUT. The professed Christian World's testing was 666. (not the Virgins! see 1 Peter 4:17 & Lev. 16:14)

By the way, In Rev. 18:4 the MASTER teaches everyone that for them to be yoked [in membership & support] of an SPEWED OUT DENOMINATION, that He also holds them as an [OPEN PARTAKER OF HER SINS]!

The [REPEATED HISTORY] of the Eccl. verses are the Virgin denomination's testing. Both times also! (see Isa. 5:3 & verse 7) TRUE LOVE FOR THE MASTER IS THEIR TESTING! Again, John 12:42-43! Matt. 26:6 & Micah 2:13. Laodicea & Philadelphia are nothing new either! They were on the scene at the ending of the O.T. probation, and the N.T. Virgin ones probation! At the SAME 'TIME PERIOD' & TOGETHER at one time!

---John

PS: 'i' thought you were running off? ***BY THE WAY, go back and check & you will 'see' perhaps that 'i' did answer the questions!
***************************

Actually I think I may be the one spinning my wheels here   , but  please read my previous posts and respond to those answers biblically if you wish.

About, oh, 4 or 5 posts back from this one I asked some questions that I would still appreciate if you would answer plainly and scripturally.

For convenience sake I will repeat them here - but please read my other posts for the answers to much of what you've said.

The questions that I asked you to respond to a ways back are:

1. How is trusting Jesus for life a "dead", or another, gospel when this is clearly what Jesus (who came that we might have Life, and Life more abundantly) taught?

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

A plain, straight-forward , biblical answer to each is appreciated.

Thanks brother,

In His Grace....

[psalmistsinger]

Bro. John,

Nah..not running off, but not at home this weekend so my posting may be a bit sporadic this weekend (if at all).

I've read through each of your posts, and I guess I'm missing it...well..I think I see how you may be answering the first one (even though I disagree I understand what you're saying) , but I don't see the answer to the last two..so let me just pose those last two again...

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

Your direct answer to both is appreciated.

Thanks,

In His Grace..

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
I just spent an hour or two in a post to you. It would not go through. I lost it? Providence Anyway, my time is too valuable to wast it! We will see what happen's to this one, huh?

*****

Bro. John,

Nah..not running off, but not at home this weekend so my posting may be a bit sporadic this weekend (if at all).

I've read through each of your posts, and I guess I'm missing it...well..I think I see how you may be answering the first one (even though I disagree I understand what you're saying) , but I don't see the answer to the last two..so let me just pose those last two again...

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

Your direct answer to both is appreciated.

Thanks,

In His Grace..

[psalmistsinger]

I'm back..and patiently waiting.

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." James 1:4

Length of the answer is unimportant as long as the answer is direct. Time is only wasted when the answers are otherwise.

No need to go through a long "circling of the wagons". "The questions are direct, it 's fine with me if the answers are the same.

The questions, again, are:

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

Thanks,

In His Grace...

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
You miss my point again perhaps? Like i have said, i have a way of spinning my wheels. Like an old pastor friend use to say to me, you remind me of Paul. (the negatives, 'me' suspects) Anyway that is the way that it is.

If you want to send an email over to my 'public' library site with the questions? I will do my best to tell it as I see it.

I have a site for just that reason. (library) And if I want to send one subject off somewhere? it is there to do so. My material's were also destroyed off of my computor some time back, & my records from it were lost. So I store some of them elsewhere also. I don't go there much. There just might even be some Everlasting Covenant material there? (Or at least should be)

Anyhow, I do have viris control, yet I still get strange email every once in a while, that gets put in my deleat box, by me. I do not click on them anymore, just send them to the deleat box. Even there, one of these still stays, every time I try to deleate it, it warns me that I have done an 'illegal act' & will be shut down. So i just leave it alone & let others build up under it! (but there is no law, huh? Not even for the un/converted.)

Anyway, let me know, if you so desire? You can send me an email at:

pastornb@cherco.net

or you can post up on the library site from your home & send it to:

pastornb@yahoogroups.com  

And the 'library' can be looked at, (into) at this below site:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pastornb/messages

Perhaps there is an email address on this site that we could send an email from home to? That way we WASTE NONE OF THE LORD'S TIME, & can save our [PRAYERFUL WORK].
Again my friend, 'i' am under the law of being responsible to my Master! See Rev. 18:4 & that verse too is the direct full-blown view of the Masters work from Isa. 42:21!
---John
******

I'm back..and patiently waiting.

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." James 1:4

Length of the answer is unimportant as long as the answer is direct. Time is only wasted when the answers are otherwise.

No need to go through a long "circling of the wagons". "The questions are direct, it 's fine with me if the answers are the same.

The questions, again, are:

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

Thanks,

In His Grace...

[Pilgrim]

It must have broken Paul’s heart to have to say these things to the Galatians (verses 11,20). They were led astray by the subverters of souls who taught that one must keep the law in order to be saved. The Galatians embraced this false gospel to the point that Paul feared his labor for them was all in vain, he even doubted that the were really saved. You cannot mix law and grace as Paul so forcefully demonstrates in his analogy using Hagar and Sarah. The extortion Paul gives is crystal clear, cast out the Mosaic law which is represented in his analogy by the bound woman. Yet many of today’s subverters of souls do just the opposite and not only cling to the law but insist that others do the same. It is no wonder why Paul had such harsh words for those who subverted the souls of others. Paul’s mission was set people free from the bondage of sin and the law and the subverters mission was to keep people in bondage to the law and sin.  

Gal 4:11 “I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.”

Gal 4:20 “I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.”

Gal 4:21 “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture?

Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
 
Pilgrim

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim,

Amen Brother!

It's nice to see you back on the forum. We missed you.

The confusion of Law is what Christ fulfilled. Again, the confusion of Grace is what Christ fulfilled. The really GOOD NEWS is the Gospel of the Grace of God, a mystery not known to men of other ages. Bring us some more GOOD NEWS Brother!

In Christ,
Tom