Subverters of Souls

[Symphony]

Besides as just historical or informational awareness, the OT should be read, understood and even studied becuase it is an insight into the Mind of God.

[Ambassador4Christ]

I will follow after the true word of Righteousness, Gods word....

Please Michael, I pray that you do. Get out of bondage to your religious system that your in, today and get with the folks who will help you to "understand AND enjoy" your Bible.

[John the Baptist]

[quote author=psalmistsinger

(removed for the below real issue?)

******
Hi, John here:
I do not think that the MASTER BEING SUFFICIENT is the bottom line, it it? Most of the 'wide gate' ones most likely believe this fact. (even the devils)

So perhaps you along with me, think that the bottom line, after being convicted of your statement, is the one verse of Matt. 23:3?

"ALL THEREFORE, [WHATSOEVER] THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, [THAT OBSERVE AND DO]; (virgin doctrines) BUT [DO NOT YE AFTER THEIR WORKS, FOR THEY SAY, AND DO NOT]."

I add this verse, because their is another Virgin Fold going down the [exact] same path as Israel of old  . Check Eze. 9 & Rev. 3:16-17 for their ending. And the quote you give is not the real issue, posted alone, is it!

And your postings ending is below: ---John
*****

So the real issue becomes .....is Jesus sufficient?

I believe He is.

In His Grace...

[psalmistsinger]

No, Brother John.

Respectfully, I will have to stand behind my original statement considering the context of the conversation.

The question has been how is righteousness obtained, or maintained? The final answer in this context is Jesus.

 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Romans 10: 9-13.

Devils, and the unregenerate, may believe that God is (which is of course the prerequisite for coming to Him) but that is not the same thing as knowing God.

The Christian, one who is born again, has believed unto righteousness by placing His confidence in Christ and is warned about turning back to trying to obtain righteousness by the Law after having done so.

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" Galatians 4: 9.    

In the Matthew 23 passage that you quote Jesus is admonishing His followers, who were at that time still under the Law as the cross had not yet taken place, to avoid the hypocrisy of the Pharisees...Advice for today as well no doubt, but not what this conversation has been about, nor what I was addressing.

Neither has the issue been about prophesies concerning Israel and Judah, or about being lukewarm. Although being lukewarm is what I believe can be produced by mixing law and grace.
It is neither completely one or the other, but an unbiblical hybrid.

When the subject is about the Old and New covenants and the validity of both as pertaining to our walk with God this side of Calvary, I believe the underlying question to be how is righteousness produced?

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2Corinthians 5:21.

There is no righteousness I can add to the righteousness of God.

I am complete in Him.

"For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. "  Romans 10:11

That is, indeed, the real issue.

He is sufficient.

I will trust in that.

Take care.

In His Grace...

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:


*******
(removed for context)

You say: "Devils, and the unregenerate, may believe that God is (which is of course the prerequisite for coming to Him) but that is not the same thing as knowing God."

***
John here:
You still miss the bottom line question: Who in professed protestantism teach differantly? Yet you say below that your have nothing to do work wise & then you say that 'which is OF COURSE THE *PREREQUISITE FOR COMING TO HIM'  
***

The Christian, one who is born again, has believed unto righteousness by placing His confidence in Christ and is warned about turning back to trying to obtain righteousness by the Law after having done so.

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" Galatians 4: 9.    

***
John here:
Born again? What law are you suggesting is now VOIDED out? (Gal. 3:19 or Rom. 3:31?) For you see, if you pick the wrong law to do away with, you are PROVING that you are NOT BORN AGAIN.

Simply put,
"IF YE LOVE ME *KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" Or 2 Cor. 3:3 [FIRST HEART TRANSPLANT!] Or Acts 5:32. The Holy Ghost is GIVEN ONLY TO THEM WHO OBEY HIM! And who forum is the Words of INSPIRATION FROM in the O.T.? (see 2 Peter 1:20-21 & 2 Tim. 3:16)
******

In the Matthew 23 passage that you quote Jesus is admonishing His followers, who were at that time still under the Law as the cross had not yet taken place, to avoid the hypocrisy of the Pharisees...Advice for today as well no doubt, but not what this conversation has been about, nor what I was addressing.

****
John here:
Well please excuse me. That is what I was telling all. Your Gospel is not the Gospel. It is NOT ABOUT THAT CONSERVATION! It is a PROMISES ONLY FALSE GOSPEL. The EVERLASTING GOSPEL of Rev. 14:6 & the ETERNAL COVENANT of Heb. 13:20 IS THE ONE & *ONLY COMPLETE  GOSPEL!

So: Your 'real issue' is NOT EVERLASTING GOSPEL + Everlasting COVENANT! (Bottom Line, *CHARACTER OF CHRIST!) For it is IMPOSSIBLE TO SEPERATE CHRIST FROM HIS 'EPISTLE' (LETTER TO US) Again see 2 Cor. 3:3. And it even sounds like that you have this 'EPISTLE' in mind to void out? An mindless Christ Gospel, 'i' think not! .

The MASTER'S PERFECTION is *not the issue! There IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS! THE CROSS PROVED THAT!

Teach as ones desires, & we will very soon seen why there is a BROAD WAY OF LOST PROFESSED 'c'HRISTIANS, huh? See Matt. 7's [*conditions for those who DO NOT VOID OUT THE LAW, but who 'ESTABLISH' the law of Rom. 3:31!]  And then check 1 Peter 4:17 for what happens to the rest.

And Christ's COMMAND in Matt. 28:20? O'well just forget it, those too are His Words & teaching, and is not, "THE REAL ISSUE", huh?  

End of John's remarks

PS: It is no wonder the professed Christian (person) world is in the mess that it is, with this NO LAW TEACHING! Take a peek at the Iraque God professing LAWLESS ones.
***

That is, indeed, the real issue.

He is sufficient.

I will trust in that.

Take care.

In His Grace...

[psalmistsinger]

Bro. John,

Apparently I have caused you offence, and I assure you that no offence was intended.

I do not consider the faith to believe that God is a work, or calling on the Lord in faith a work as it were, because the very faith by which I believe is a gift.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

I don't know if you have read this entire thread or not so if I repeat a little forgive me.

 I am not saying, nor has it been said, that one should not keep His commandments, but rather what does that mean?

Does keeping His commandments mean following the 10 commandments and the Law of the Old Covenant, or is it following the Nature, the Spirit, that contains that same righteous Character because it written in the heart of the believer? Not on stone seperate, apart and unattainable, but now, because of what Jesus has done, is it who we are in Him?

 I believe it is the latter.

What Law am I suggesting is voided?

What Paul said. The Old Covenant. Not that the Old covenant was not God's word, but not His final Word. The Old Covenant was a shadow, the New Covenant (Jesus) is the Light.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2: 14 -17.

Now some would say that it is only the ceremonial laws that Paul is dealing with, but biblically this a distiction that Paul doesn't make.

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

What was written on stone was the 10, and Paul says that it's glory was done away.

Further indication that the 10 were not considered separate from the rest of the Old Covenant is found in Hebrews.

"Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant"
Hebrews 9:1-4.

So we understand that not only were the 10 commandments not only part of the Old Covenant, but indeed were the very heart of it. As well they should have been the very words and character of God written on stone fore-shadowing that same righteousness being written on the stony heart of man to make something new as Ezekiel foretold.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Ezekiel 36:26.

The righteousness of the law, the 10, is established in the hearts of believers who are living it because it is their nature, who they are, and not an external law.

The Gospel of Jesus is not mine but His, and I just believe it, which in turn (because of the Life that He has imparted to me) makes me want to live accordingly.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17.

My "real issue" in this conversation has been what I said it was - the sufficiency of Christ for righteousness.

I believe the "Everlasting Gospel" and the "Everlasting Covenant" to be one and the same thing, and found in the Person of Christ Jesus.
 
"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
Matthew 20:28

And how do we observe these things? I think all of this can be summed up by the words of Jesus in another place.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29

The Master's perfection is not the issue, but ours, as it is found only in Him, is. Some don't believe that His grace is sufficient. I disagree.

My purpose has been to declare the sufficiency of Christ, and that Christ alone is all that is necessary, is the only thing that makes anyone righteous. Not the law, not another commandment, just Jesus.

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? " Galatians 3: 2-3.

"Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." Romans 8:34

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8: 38-39.

To add anything to Jesus for salvation (or "maintaining" salvation) is to take away from His sufficiency, to say that His cross was not enough for forgiveness, and that His life is not enough for righteousness.

I trust Him. That trust causes me to walk in Love...which fulfills the law.

I trust Him alone.

In His Grace...

 




 

[John the Baptist]

John here:
First off, no offence is taken from this end. I do not know any one on these forums to my knowledge. The only thing that I am posting too is a message with the subject Re: Subverters of Souls. Did I spin my wheels?? (Nothing personal in my remarks for individuals. I am NO MIND OR HEART READER, ok?)

With that being said, let me say that 'i' do hate OPEN UNREPENTANT FLAGRANT SIN. This i take offence with.
And that is what most would question, perhaps? It is not Wheat & Tares growing together that is for sure.
Sorry! There are Wheat, there are both Tares, both growing together with minds that cannot be read, ok? Then there ARE OPEN REPEAT FLAGRANT SINNERS. This is NOT GODS WILL! (see Joshua 7)

Now for the Subverters of Souls 'thinking'? False doctrine is included! Being yoked to such false doctrine is being an OPEN PARTAKER [when known!] It can not be known unless one is taught & ['convicted'] by the Holy Spirit! And on & on we go!
Matt. 28:20.

How do [we] differ in thinking? (most likely much-law of spiritual average) But on your [one] missives explanation, maybe, just some? Old & New Covenants perhaps, for starters? I do not believe that the Rent Vail Voided out the [COMBINED] EVERLASTING COVENANT. But the way was made into the second faze of it. The Everlasting heavenly Most Holy place, where the ARK is still there! (Rev. 11:19)

Never will i be convinced that mankind, at any time (or of created ones) in time were created to ONLY BELIEVE. What a DEAD WORSHIP THAT WOULD BE. (Feverant Love is called into question. Rev. 3:16-17) God created us with a brain, mental & physical powers. AND YES, They ARE STILL HIS, and they are still HIS regardless of being saved or otherwise! Regardless if one recognizes it & gives the credits to the creator or not.

Just another note: It is interesting of the Hot Desirse 's'atan gets & wants, while the LOVING PROFFESED CHRISTIANS constantly CRY FOUL TO OTHERS WITH THE TRUE LOVING WORKS FOR CHRIST!
IT IS A TOTAL COMPLETE CREATED PACKAGE OF FAITH & WORKS EITHER WAY! (or you are D-E-A-D-. see Eze. 37)

Back again: .
And yes, Adam made shipwreck! (But it was NOT THE SIN UNTO DEATH)
Then came the [*PLAN] OF THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL INTO FUNCTION. (FAITH-WORKS) GRACE SAVED THE ONE WHO SURRENDERED HIS TOTAL WILL. True Faith=True Works OF LOVE & DEVELOPES A CHARACTER THAT GOD DID NOT 'GIVE'  HIS CREATED ONES. This they had to DEVELOPE by the Everlasting Gospel Provisions supplied by Christ! (His Grace)There is NO WAY TO SEPERATE THE TWO. It Is a two party AGREEMENT, PLEDGE, CONTRACT. (baptismal vow!)

Case in point: Gen. 4:7.
Cain was faithful up until maturity. (no condemnation in Rom. 8:1) He had obeyed in FAITH by offering the lamb offering that pointed to the Master. Then he made his fatal MATURE & FACE TO 'WORD' mistake. But before this, he was forwarned! The DECISION was his to make!
Faith alone would not have done it, it required a combination of TRUE BELIEF or  FAITH THAT WORKS, the Word says.. 'IF THOU DOEST WELL, WILL THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED?'. And of course he would have been accepted. (if one believes the passage)

Never in the creation by Christ was man saved in any other way! Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 Notice God's question in the passage! "Is there [anything] new under the sun?" (only if we are told so!)
---John

[psalmistsinger]

Ok...let me see if I can follow you here..

Again, let me say that I don't believe that anyone who has posted here is approving of any kind of sinful actions.

I also believe that good works will follow those that believe.

I think perhaps where we are is the age old question of the chicken and the egg. Which comes first, or produces the other?

I don't believe that works are necessary for salvation, although I believe that salvation by virtue of what it is, and Who it's from, will produce fruit.

 I believe the Bible teaches that as we walk in Love by faith this fruit is produced naturally. Not to gain or keep salvation, but because of salvation.

As for your reasoning on the covenants being one combined covenant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion in light of Hebrews.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

It seems apparent to me that they are two different things, with the first being a shadow of the New.
Even the ark and the furnishings of the temple, according to the writer of Hebrews, were a symbol, or pattern, of the true.

Keep in mind that while Revelation is without question from God, not all of it (or not most of it) can be taken literally and surely points to Spiritual truth. Certainly there is not a literal woman clothed with the literal sun with the literal moon beneath her feet.

I'm not sure where you are going with your example of Cain. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else ( and believe me - that is not meant disrespectfully..there's a lot of names to remember here!), for Cain offered nothing by faith.

"And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD." Genesis 4:2-3

Cain, as a tiller of the ground, offered what had been produced by his own sweat, or works.

Abel, by faith, offered a lamb that only God could produce.

I believe this to be a perfect picture of what God accepts.

Of course I don't believe Eccl. in it's context to be speaking of the New Covenant , but surely Paul is.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
2Corinthians 5:17

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Galatians 6:15.

Never until Christ could anyone be truly born of the Spirit.
And that is only by His Grace through faith.

In His Grace...

   



 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here: I will comment below.
***

Ok...let me see if I can follow you here..

Again, let em say that I don't believe that anyone who has posted here is approving of any kind of sinful actions.
***
John: That is a judgement by what standard? Surely you can not mean that the way it sounds? If you are certain, then the Word of God is not Truth. Now, we are not trying to discuss a motive or read any persons mind. But, what does one do with Matt. 25 or Rev. 3:16-17 or Heb. 6:6 or 1 John 2:4 or Isa. 8:20 or Matt. 7 & +?

The next thing we might consider is Num. 16:3 by Korah..
"..seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them." Sure was huh?
*****  

I also believe that good works will follow those that believe.

***
John here:
Well it seems that you disagree with Christ Himself in Rev. 3:16-17. And try to convince me that He was wrong in John 12:42-43! These ones really did believe, yet the good works COST TOO MUCH!
*****

I think perhaps where we are is the age old question of the chicken and the egg. Which comes first, or produces the other?

I don't believe that works are necessary for salvation, although I believe that salvation by virtue of what it is, and Who it's from, will produce fruit.

*****
John: Like it was stated before. Your [gospel] is a DEAD one! (no personal offense intended-it is anothers gospel) The Works of mankind is his make up regardless of his master or Master! (again see Gen. 4:7 & see if you can figure this
out?  . In other words WORKS come with the CREATIVE LAW OF GOD. Like gravity, please do not tell me that gravity is not neccessary, ok? (like His Law or Epistle of 2 Cor. 3:3. Letter or character) The message left out of your salvation is the CHARACTER BUILDING that is not created or given, it is a WORKING agreement, pledge or contract by Christ & ones self. (All His Provisions supplied "IF", one daily desires. Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9)
****

 I believe the Bible teaches that as we walk in Love by faith this fruit is produced naturally. Not to gain or keep salvation, but because of salvation.
****

John:
What do you do with the good works of the ones not born again? Whoese works are they of? And how can they be governed with no Royal ten commandment Law?

But it seems that we agree as to a Born Again ones Motive. Yet, it still is a character building process by free choice. Rom. 8:14 say's "LED", not driven or forced or decreed. The END of sin is DEATH James tells us. First comes Grieve & Quenching the Holy Ghost.
****  

As for your reasoning on the covenants being one combined covenant, I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion in light of Hebrews.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

It seems apparent to me that they are two different things, with the first being a shadow of the New.
Even the ark and the furnishings of the temple, according to the writer of Hebrews, were a symbol, or pattern, of the true.
****
John:
Perhaps we can discuss this later, in more depth? New in what sense of the bottom line is the context. Letter of the law killeth, but the Spirit of the law gives life! We agree on that 'me' thinks?
****  

Keep in mind that while Revelation is without question from God, not all of it (or most of it) can be taken literally and surely points to Spiritual truth. Certainly there is not a literal woman clothed with the literal sun with the literal moon beneath her feet.

****
John: Who said it did? You must have me confused with another?
****

I'm not sure where you are going with your example of Cain. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else ( and believe me - that is not meant disrespectfully..there's a lot of names to remember here!), for Cain offered nothing by faith.
****
John:
Sounds like we think some what alike ?   We both have ears & eyes too huh? Yea, like our remark of no dis/respect on the above, of the above, of your .. (and believe me - that is not meant disrespectfully...) thing.

Now you are telling me that Christ was not telling the Truth in Gen. 4:7 "IF THOU DOEST WELL, SHALT THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED?" Come on now, you know better than that, right?
God is the SAME YESTERDAY! HE CANNOT LIE! (For me to say these words & not mean it would make me a liar, Christ also!)
So: You can put the money in the bank, he would have been accepted! (by his faithful works-OR WORKING FAITH!)

Now: How were the Heb. 11 ones saved? These ALL DIED IN THE FAITH. Gen. 3:15's Lamb was offered! Cain had up to this time been a faithful 'servant' (Working one, huh?) You go and study the verse, there is a lot more there than you 'see'. (no offence intended)
******


"And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD." Genesis 4:2-3

Cain, as a tiller of the ground, offered what had been produced by his own sweat, or works.

Abel, by faith, offered a lamb that only God could produce.

I believe this to be a perfect picture of what God accepts.

Of course I don't believe Eccl. in it's context to be speaking of the New Covenant , but surely Paul is.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
2Corinthians 5:17

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Galatians 6:15.

Never until Christ could anyone be truly born of the Spirit.
And that is only by His Grace through faith.

****
John: Well again, we disagree some. Fullness of the Spirit perhaps. But King Saul was given the Holy Spirit (if one believes that the Holy Spirit is one of the GodHead) at his humble start, and later on He (the Holy Spirit) was removed from King Saul.
(you look it up, or let me know & 'i' will do it for you)

It is interesting to see how anyone can support the God that IS Christ, and yet at the same time, not place Him with equal power & divinity with the Holy Spirit? Let me clarify! huh?

While God was talking to Cain, was the Holy Spirit needed? Was not one of the reasons that the Holy Spirit was given in the N.T. was TOO UPLIFT THE MASTER? ('after He returned' to heaven) Now, WHO was on earth in the Cloudy piller by day & a pilar of Fire by night?

Does one think of Christ when as God, (before He became God/Man) that He was not being equal in power to the Holy Spirit??? (Not me friend!) Yes, He, the Holy Spirit was everywhere! And yes, perhaps Christ was not omnipresent as a [MAN]GOD! Yet, HE WAS CONSTANTLY WITH HIS PEOPLE!

It was HE THAT WAS WITH THEM IN THE SEVEN TIMES of their 1 Peter 4:17 Judgement! From 27-34AD. Personally & then by the PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT LIFTING HIM UP.
(and the people early on had access of the Master also through the Thummim Urim)

End of John's remarks
****

In His Grace...

   



 

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim & Psalmistsinger,

Brothers, I received blessings from your posts.

Thank you!

In Christ.

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
Just to get back on the Subverters of Souls topic, how do you read Gen. 6:3? And the ACTIVE AGENT, (GOD-v.1) THE HOLY SPIRIT in Gen. 1:1-3

"And the Spirit of God MOVED UPON THE FACE OF THE WATERS" And Gen. 6:3 said that.. "MY SPIRIT SHALL NOT ALWAYS [STRIVE WITH MAN].."

The 'shall not always strive with man' seems to be accelerating! Huh? The thought is, That the Holy Ghost has *always BEEN on the scene, not just in the new Testament.

By the way, all of the congregation of the people said: "Ye have killed the people of the Lord" Do you remember Korah of Numbers 16?
The Word of God has NEVER been a popularity contest!

---John

******

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim & Psalmistsinger,

Brothers, I received blessings from your posts.

Thank you!

In Christ.

[psalmistsinger]

A Kentucky "HI-DEE" to Blackeyed Peas!

Good to hear from you again brother. Glad your enjoying the conversation! I always enjoy your posts as well, and have been reading some of them on other threads!

Bro. John,

The standard of judgement is Christ. Those who are born of Him have no desire to sin for the seed of God is them.

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. " John 3:9

If sin is transgression of the Law (and John says that it is), and Jesus has abolished the Law, then the the believer cannot transgress something that he is not a part of; i.e. the Old Covenant. We are forgiven and given grace and strength to walk in righteousness, not because of an external, but an internal Law. The Law of Life in Christ Jesus.

As this is a Christian board my statement pertained to the motives of brothers and sisters as far as attitudes towards sin are concerned. Being born of the same Father I know what we are made of. It did not pertain to those that are not born of Him.

Matthew 25 is about 2 different groups of people as delianted, I believe, in verse 46 - those who are righteous and those who are not; thus leading us again to the question of how one is made righteous.  As I 've said, and I believe the scriptures prove, that is by Christ alone.

Revelation 3 is not written to individual believers, but to the churches.

 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Revelation 3:13.

Hebrews 6:6 is showing the futility of going back under the law of Moses after having trusted Christ. But the writer says:

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." Hebrews 6:8.

The point is (and he makes it again in Hebrews 10) that after that sacrifice of Jesus there is no other sacrifice that is acceptable. He is telling the Hebrews not to go back to the bondage of the law from which they have been delivered.

I have addressed the issue in 1John 2:4 in previous posts. How do we keep His commandments? Because they are wirtten on our hearts. That is what we live by. Not by what's written in stone.

"And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:19-20.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31.

"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Galatians 3:21

The New Covenant, which abolished the Old, is not against the righteousness the law, rather the Law was contrary to man.

But -

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" Colossians 2:14.

The commandment was good and Holy, but gave no one power to abide by that written on stone.

The Spirit has given us new birth by which He give us His power by virtue of Who He is to live the New Life in Christ Jesus.

Those in Matthew 7 that Jesus tell to depart are not His children, but those that He never knew.

I'm not sure how Korah fits here. No one is clean because I or anyone else says so, but only because God says so.

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." John 15:3.

In John 12 those that are among the chief rulers being spoken of did indeed apparently believe that He was the Christ, but as the crucifixion and resurrection had not yet occured, nor had Pentecost come, they could not have had the opportunity to believe unto salvation, hence they were never born again.

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" John 7:38-39.

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:31-32.

The character that grows in a believer is developed from the "raw material" (the New birth) that God has freely given.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity." 2 Peter 1:3-7

He has given us all things that pertain to life. Growing in that is not a work of salvation but, again, because of salvation.

As for good works from those that aren't Christians and what is the motivation, or cause:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" Romans 2: 14-15.

There is a moral charater that can exist even in unregenerate man. Man is, after all, created in the image of God, and some  -without the "Royal 10" which was given to the nation of Israel - are a law unto themselves.  But this further goes to the point that salvation is the by God's grace and not of works. As Paul said earlier in the same book -

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:16-17.

My comment on the book Revelation being spiritual was in response to your example of the ark. It appeared to be used in a literal sense.

I see no biblical evidence that Cain up to the point of Abel's murder had been a faithful servant, but rather that sin was in his heart.

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Genesis 4:7

How could Cain have done well? The contrast is plain with Abel, who offered his sacrifice by faith, and not as Cain who offered of that for which he had worked.

Those in Hebrews 11 were saved by faith. Having died physically they were nevertheless alive spiritually by faith in the promise of God that was found in Christ. Remember that He is the God of the Living.

"And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err." Mark 12:26-27.

The Holy Spirit came upon Saul and others in the Old testament at different times, but never to stay to make the man the temple of God.  Never to indwell and regenerate by Spiritual birth.  That was not to happen until Jesus.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit that raised Jesus  (who is God Himself manifested the flesh) from the dead, is God.

Now, Brother John,
I am but a plain spoken man and sadly I'm not too good at reading between the lines. I am in need of a few things being spelled out for the sake of better understanding.

The way this has been going is that you will pick something out of what I've said and question it (which is fine), and in my response - which I try to make as thorough as I can - you will pick something else out and question it (which really is fine), but I would appreciate it if you could respond a bit too, and fully explain a few things that are in my next post biblically.

Sorry, but this post is a bit long so please read the continuation on the next post.

[psalmistsinger]

Continued from previous post:

Bro. John,

1. How is trusting Jesus for life a "dead", or another, gospel when this is clearly what Jesus (who came that we might have Life, and Life more abundantly) taught?

To quote just a few:

John 3:15  "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."  

John 3:17  "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

John 10:9  "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

My personal purpose on this board, besides friendly fellowship with other brethren in the body of Christ, is to gain understanding in issues like this from those who aren't like minded as to how they understand the bible.

I appreciate your willingess to converse and look forward to your response.

I will be away from home over the next few days but will check back as opportunity allows.

In His grace...

[John the Baptist]

Continued from previous post:

Bro. John,

1. How is trusting Jesus for life a "dead", or another, gospel when this is clearly what Jesus (who came that we might have Life, and Life more abundantly) taught?

John here: Trusting alone is a DEAD LETTER. "But wilt thou KNOW, o vain man, (?) that  Faith without WORKS is DEAD?" Jams 2:20. Again the complete Gospel is TRUTH 2 Tim. 3:16.
Now comes what works huh? Like the forth commandment's OBEDIENCE?
*********

To quote just a few:

John 3:15  "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."  

John here: Even an uncoverted 12 year could 'see' the conditions here!   (NO sarcarsm intended) That of.. 'should not parish'! This is either a possibility, or is un/truthful, the way *you 'tell' it! For the verse also STATES [*WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM].
Then of course the Word of BELIEF itself. It IS AN EVERLASTING COVENTANT CONDITION (see Heb. 13:20) & in the complete verse reading proves that one is NOT 'ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED'!

In other words any Gospel needs its COMPLETE 66 books for 'MATURE TESTED' Character building, to be GENUINE EVERLASTING GOSPEL. See Matt. 4:4.  (FAITH + WORKS..see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 again for the [MASTERS * PROMISED SUPPLIED PROVISIONS!]
******************

John 3:17  "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

John here: Does see the Condition here? 'MIGHT BE'. If one holds up the his end of the COVENANT which is a daily FREE CHOICE, God PROMISES THE PROVISIONS. Again, Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9! Note Rom. 2:13 for your 'singular' twisting the Gospel into a Matt. 4:6 1/2 'g'ospel.
"For not the [hearers] (professors) of the law [are just before God], but the [DOERS OF THE *LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED]."
*********************************************

John 10:9  "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

John here: 1/2 'g'ospel. Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the Mouth of God. Matt. 4:4-2 Tim. 3:16. Again, 's'atans quote to Christ in Matt. 4:6, and just about Word for Word from the Bible. It was not TRUTH in the 1/2 setting, with a PROMISE, with out the condition! Read Christ's rebuke in verse 7! [HE] GAVE A VERSE FROM *OLD TESTAMENT Deut. 6:16!
***************************  

2. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

John here: What are you asking in the above?
**********************************

3. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

John here: Please be more percise with verses. ('i' only try to read the missives in response. You might give some thought
as to your idea of the 'Vail went rent from top to bottom, by an unseen hand' meaning? Do you not think that all of the furnishings of [both] Holy & Most Holy place are seen in Rev.'s description?
*********

My personal purpose on this board, besides friendly fellowship with other brethren in the body of Christ, is to gain understanding in issues like this from those who aren't like minded as to how they understand the bible.

John here: Perhaps, i can find the ending of your other 'long' post to finish up answering it? By the way, if one would look for the conditions? while just posting a couple of Bible Promises, they would get the message across that they ALL HAVE CONDITIONS!  
*******************

I appreciate your willingess to converse and look forward to your response.

I will be away from home over the next few days but will check back as opportunity allows.

In His grace...

[psalmistsinger]

Bro. John,

The only condition in John 3:15 is belief.

They should not perish if they believe, which I've established in other posts is by faith, which itself should not be construed as a work as it too is the gift of God.


In John 3:17 that "the world through Him might be saved " is again in reference to belief...by faith..the gift of God.

My second question is reference to your previous statement:

John the Baptist (meaning of course you the poster here) said, "I do not believe that the Rent Vail Voided out the [COMBINED] EVERLASTING COVENANT. But the way was made into the second faze of it. The Everlasting heavenly Most Holy place, where the ARK is still there! (Rev. 11:19)"

Scripturally, why do you not see two covenants, and how do you combine them?

The specific verses that I am referring to in 2 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 8 are the ones that I have quoted in previous posts. I'm not sure if you are reading all of the posts, but I think there are some things to address in them.

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

I am glad to address the verses and issues you bring up biblically, as I have been doing, but how about you keep the ball for a little bit?

Your straight-forward response to these verses, and my other posts, is appreciated.

If I don't make it back beforehand, have a good holiday week-end.

In His Grace....