Subverters of Souls

[asaph]

3   Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5   Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6   And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7   Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8   Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9   Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10   But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11   For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12   Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13   Thou shalt not kill.
14   Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15   Thou shalt not steal.
16   Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17   Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Our focus is not these but Christ. Our ears and our eyes are on Him, the fulfillment.

Let's say I am walking around the block and I see my neighbors' wife out in the yard working the garden. She is scantily dressed and very good looking. Then the Spirit says to me do not covet her (lust). By obeying, am I trying to earn my salvation? Is it wrong for me to observe this instant word. I think not. In fact it would be wrong not to. My focus however is not the ten commandments but the Spirit of Grace (Christ). My deliverence is in Him through His instant word.

Am I making sense? Or am I all wet?

asaph

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
Who 'SPIRITUALLY MOVED' the writers of the Master's Words? The Holy Spirit! With the exception of Isa. 8:20.

This person of the God Head re/created the [saved] ones! That is & was, only the 'starting point'. But there is NO way of being saved without BEING BORN AGAIN! (see 2 Cor. 3:3)

Now & ONLY NOW, have we any power to OBEY CHRIST! (Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) But What caused this CHANGE? [It is now] that my HEART & MIND LOVE MY MASTER! "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" He says! It is just THAT SIMPLE!

What of all of the ones that will not keep the Holy Spirits Inspiration seen in the Word of God, while CLAIMING TO KNOW & LOVE CHRIST? HE INSPIRED JOHNS WORD'S TO US IN 1 John 2:4! NO TRUTH! LIAR INSPIRATION SAYS!

They either are still found in Matt. 25's sleeping, or they have NEVER been converted in the first place, [or] they are found in 2 Peter 2:19-22's ones of 'promising them liberty'.

---John

PS: You rightly so, list the ten commandments below. There are a good many ways to take Christ's NAME IN VAIN besides swaring! See Mark 7:7!
***********

3   Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5   Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6   And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7   Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8   Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9   Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10   But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11   For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12   Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13   Thou shalt not kill.
14   Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15   Thou shalt not steal.
16   Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17   Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Our focus is not these but Christ. Our ears and our eyes are on Him, the fulfillment.

Let's say I am walking around the block and I see my neighbors' wife out in the yard working the garden. She is scantily dressed and very good looking. Then the Spirit says to me do not covet her (lust). By obeying, am I trying to earn my salvation? Is it wrong for me to observe this instant word. I think not. In fact it would be wrong not to. My focus however is not the ten commandments but the Spirit of Grace (Christ). My deliverence is in Him through His instant word.

Am I making sense? Or am I all wet?

asaph

[Pilgrim]

Hi asaph,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I think you are on the right tract. We obey righteousness because we are under the law of Christ, not as incorrectly claimed by some that we are under the law of Moses. The law of Christ is far superior to the law of Moses just as Christ is far superior to Moses. Some say that if you teach that the Ten Commandments are done away with as 2 Cor. 3:11 says then you are teaching that a save person can sin at will. Even the apostle Paul had to defend himself from this accusation as well. It was wicked men who subverted the souls of those who followed them that made such baseless accusations.

Rom. 6:1 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?  2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

Because Paul taught that one is saved by grace through faith rather than law keeping his enemies accused him of teaching that a Christian had a free license to sin. Paul gave the death blow to that argument in verse 1 of Romans 6. He went on to say:

Rom. 6:15 “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.  16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?  17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.  18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

Can God’s Word get any clearer that we are not under law but under grace (verse 15)? And can God’s Word get any clearer that because were are under grace and not the law that this is not a license for free sinning? True Christians do not practice sin because they follow the law of Christ, not because they follow the law of Moses.


Quote from asaph “I am under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus! This includes His commandments; they are not a burden. You are not a burden to me either but a blessing from God.”

You are correct that the commands are not a burden Matthew 11 makes this abundantly clear:

Matt. 11:28 “Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.  29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.  30  For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.”

Yet the opposite is true for the law of Moses as Acts 15 declares so clearly:

Acts 15:5 “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts 15:10 “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”

Peter says that the law of Moses was an unbearable burden that neither they or their fathers were able to bear. If the apostles themselves could not bear the law of Moses what chance do we have? Peter said that those who taught that Christian have to keep the law of Moses were tempting God, a very serious sin. Those who teach that Christians have to keep the law of Moses are siding with the Pharisees of verse 6 and those who temp God (verse 10) and those who subvert souls (verse 24):

Acts 15:23 “And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:  24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:”

Notice that verse 24 for says it was the troublemakers who taught that Christians must keep the law of Moses and that they themselves never gave such a commandment.

God bless,
Pilgrim

[Symphony]

Okay, well, then, what would everybody think about the following:

1)  Jesus Christ is our Saviour, but the Old Testament, or the law, is still an insight into the mind of God.  True, it doesn't save--Jesus saves.  Still, the law is to be aware of, and understood.  Yesterday I read the verse in Deuteronomy, that you shall include a parapet around your roof, to keep someone from falling off.  Another interesting verse, that men and women shall not switch clothes.  Wouldn't "studying to show thyself approved..." include those old, too?  Isn't that an insight into the mind of God?

2) Secondly, what do you think about the chief justice, Moore, there in Alabama--West Point graduate, Viet Nam vet, paying for himself and planting in the state Supreme Court there, a monument of the Ten Commandments? (I think the case now is going to the federal Supreme Court?).

[John the Baptist]

*******
Hi folks, John here:
I am asking Pilgrim for either verification, clarification perhaps? or a Christian retraction of his posted remark about.. (quote) "We are under the law of Christ, not as incorrectly claimed by some that we are under the law of Moses".

Now: I have been on this forum even before it was dealt a blow from 's'atan. And I have heard this stated before (perhaps by another) that there are ones on this forum who believe this?? Never, have I read such a statement from this forum, to my remembrance!?

So please help me out! Surely none here are saying that you are under the law of Moses, are you?
The problem that arises folk, is that I cannot now remember or be certain that it was stated about [this forum or not]? Can you see the damage of such 'j'esuit 'like' tactics of suggestions???

If was not said that any on this forum do believe this way, but it sounds like some of us do??   Personally, I do not think that a Christian wanting to serve the Master would want anyone to misunderstand his statement on this?

----John

*******
Hi asaph,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I think you are on the right tract. We obey righteousness because we are under the law of Christ, not as incorrectly claimed by some that we are under the law of Moses.

(zapped for truth questional response)

God bless,
Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

2 Cor. 3:6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  7  But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:  8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?  9  For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.  11  For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.  12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13  And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:  14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.  15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.  16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.  17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.  18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 3 is talking specifically about the Ten Commandments (verses 7) in comparison to the New Covenant. Paul says in verse 3 that they are ministers of the New Covenant (new testament) which is not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit.  The Ten Commandments are not part of the gospel, the gospel and the Ten Commandments are opposed to each other so that they cannot be mixed. The Ten Commandments brought forth death and condemnation while the gospel of the New Covenant brought fort life and a clear conscience before God.

Notice verse 7 refers to the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death, not one of life, and verse nine says the Ten Commandments were a ministry of condemnation, not one that would clear a guilty conscience. I am amazed that some people insist upon putting themselves and others under a ministry of death and condemnation. Why would anyone who is sane want to be under a covenant that could only condemn and kill them in the first place? Are they under a false delusion that a ministry of death and condemnation is able to bring them life and a clear conscience before God? No wonder the apostles, elders and brethren of Jerusalem said it was the subverters of souls that taught that Christians are to keep the law of Moses Acts 15:24).

Verse 11 clearly teaches that the Ten Commandments are done away with and that the New Covenant is what remains. The so-called law keepers cannot explain verse 11. Verse 11 says that the Ten Commandments are done away with and the so-called law keepers say it is not. Who’s lying, the so-called law keepers, or God? I will give a little hint it’s not God. Verse 13 declares that the Ten Commandments are abolished, how can a Christian be subject to something that is abolished and no longer in force? The reason some people insist that the Ten Commandments are in force today is explained in this chapter as well. It’s because they are blind by a vail upon their heart in their understanding of the Old Testament (verse 15). In other words they don’t even understand the purpose of the Old Covenant and like the unbelieving Jews they think that their righteousness is by the deeds of the law (Rom.9:30-33). This vail will only be removed when they repent by turning their hearts away from the ministry of death and condemnation to the cross of Jesus Christ where they will find life and a clear conscience before God.

Like the self righteous Pharisees of old, today’s subverters of souls think that they are serving God when they teach their false gospel of works based salvation. Like the Pharisees of old, they lead souls to hell rather than heaven.

Matt. 23:13 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.  14  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.  15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

Strong words from our beloved Lord Himself. Those who teach that Christians must keep the law of Moses are enemies of the cross and wether they realize it or not they help promote Satan’s deadliest work of blinding mens eyes to the light of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 4:3 “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:  4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

God bless,
Pilgrim

[John the Baptist]

2 Cor. 3:6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  7  But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:  8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?  9  For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.  11  For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.  12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13  And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:  14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.  15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.  16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.  17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.  18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 3 is talking specifically about the Ten Commandments (verses 7) in comparison to the New Covenant. Paul says in verse 3 that they are ministers of the New Covenant (new testament) which is not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit.  The Ten Commandments are not part of the gospel, the gospel and the Ten Commandments are opposed to each other so that they cannot be mixed. The Ten Commandments brought forth death and condemnation while the gospel of the New Covenant brought fort life and a clear conscience before God.

Notice verse 7 refers to the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death, not one of life, and verse nine says the Ten Commandments were a ministry of condemnation, not one that would clear a guilty conscience. I am amazed that some people insist upon putting themselves and others under a ministry of death and condemnation. Why would anyone who is sane want to be under a covenant that could only condemn and kill them in the first place? Are they under a false delusion that a ministry of death and condemnation is able to bring them life and a clear conscience before God? No wonder the apostles, elders and brethren of Jerusalem said it was the subverters of souls that taught that Christians are to keep the law of Moses Acts 15:24).

Verse 11 clearly teaches that the Ten Commandments are done away with and that the New Covenant is what remains. The so-called law keepers cannot explain verse 11. Verse 11 says that the Ten Commandments are done away with and the so-called law keepers say it is not. Who’s lying, the so-called law keepers, or God? I will give a little hint it’s not God. Verse 13 declares that the Ten Commandments are abolished, how can a Christian be subject to something that is abolished and no longer in force? The reason some people insist that the Ten Commandments are in force today is explained in this chapter as well. It’s because they are blind by a vail upon their heart in their understanding of the Old Testament (verse 15). In other words they don’t even understand the purpose of the Old Covenant and like the unbelieving Jews they think that their righteousness is by the deeds of the law (Rom.9:30-33). This vail will only be removed when they repent by turning their hearts away from the ministry of death and condemnation to the cross of Jesus Christ where they will find life and a clear conscience before God.

Like the self righteous Pharisees of old, today’s subverters of souls think that they are serving God when they teach their false gospel of works based salvation. Like the Pharisees of old, they lead souls to hell rather than heaven.

Matt. 23:13 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.  14  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.  15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

*********
John here: All of the above it seems, is agreed by me?
But who on the forum here are you talking about in the below words? And yes, this is also true if & when these ones are doing so. But are we not accountable to [show the proof?]
See Rev. 18:4 for a SAINTS ACCOUNTABILITY!
---John
*********


Strong words from our beloved Lord Himself. Those who teach that Christians must keep the law of Moses are enemies of the cross and wether they realize it or not they help promote Satan’s deadliest work of blinding mens eyes to the light of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 4:3 “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:  4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

God bless,
Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Quote from John "John here: All of the above it seems, is agreed by me? But who on the forum here are you talking about in the below words?"

To those who teach that Christians must keep the law of Moses. Prehaps if you read the topic from the start you would not be confused.

God bless,
Pilgrim

[IrishAngel]

I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief...

Good exposition Pilgrim  

[asaph]

Grace still loves those that oppose Him. It is all about relationship; with our Creator and with others. Doctrine can bring misunderstanding from those not familiar, but love covers over a multitude of sins.

 Ephesians 4
1   I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2   With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3   Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

1 Cor.8
1   ...Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2   And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3   But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

asaph

[Ambassador4Christ]

Grace still loves those that oppose Him. It is all about relationship; with our Creator and with others. Doctrine can bring misunderstanding from those not familiar, but love covers over a multitude of sins.

 Ephesians 4
1   I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2   With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3   Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

1 Cor.8
1   ...Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2   And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3   But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

asaph

Right On  

[psalmistsinger]

My dear brother Michael..

I have read your posts for months and, while I haven't necessarily always agreed, I have been impressed with your zeal. I too have a "Full Gospel" background, and am appreciative of the emphasis for respect for the "whole word" of God.

What we must understand is that while all of the Bible is from God, not all of it applies conditionally to our time, and it is the New Covenant that fulfilled the "Old" and  is the "world without end" Ephesians 3:21.

Old and New Covenants are indeed two different things applying to two different era's ( before Calvary and after Calvary) in history.
Old is called "Old" for a reason, and was given with the knowledge that there would be a "New".

Moses said, "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" Deuteronomy 18:15.  
 
What separates Moses from the other Old testament prophets like Isaiah, Daniel, or Jeremiah?

A Covenant.

Moses was a "covenant bringer", and for a Prophet to be like "unto him" that prophet would have to have a Covenant!

As Jeremiah said, again establishing that "Old Covenant" was not the final word, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" Jeremiah 31:31-34.  

Now the writer Hebrews says, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13.      
The Old Covenant was added because of transgressions and  given to show man his need for a Savior.

When the law said "don't covet", and I know that I have coveted, then I am aware of my need to be saved.
Once I am born again however, with the Character of God wirtten on my heart, I no longer need an external law that is contrary to me to be under bondage to so that I will do the right thing. Now the Spirit that is in me leads me to do those things that I ought naturally, because this Character is not separate from me, but is in my heart.

No one is saying that anyone who calls themselves Christian should commit sin. Rather he who is born of God, following the Nature, the Spirit,  that is in Him will walk righteously without an outside law because that is who he is.

Think for a moment...as child of God do you want to steal? Kill? Commit adultery?
Of course not..and that is the point!

The Character that was written on stone, and was contrary to natural man has now, by the Spirit,  been written on the hearts of those that belong to Christ! And those that are led by the Spirit (not the law) are the sons of God!

God's holiness is revealed in both Covenant's because He is the same Person. That Character is fulfilled and established in the tablets of our hearts. That is what we live by - the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

I appreciate that you are posting here, and enjoy speaking of these things. Keep in mind...

It is one thing to say that Pilgrim, myself, or others are going to hell, but quite a different thing to defend a position biblically. If we reach a point of disagreement then so be it..
God knows those who are His, and no doubt they don't all think the same about every issue. But we all agree that He is Lord, and if the Son of God didn't come into the world to condemn it, then certainly we don't want to do that to each other.

In His Grace...








 

[asaph]

My dear brother Michael..

I have read your posts for months and, while I haven't necessarily always agreed, I have been impressed with your zeal. I too have a "Full Gospel" background, and am appreciative of the emphasis for respect for the "whole word" of God.

What we must understand is that while all of the Bible is from God, not all of it applies conditionally to our time, and it is the New Covenant that fulfilled the "Old" and  is the "world without end" Ephesians 3:21.

Old and New Covenants are indeed two different things applying to two different era's ( before Calvary and after Calvary) in history.
Old is called "Old" for a reason, and was given with the knowledge that there would be a "New".

Moses said, "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" Deuteronomy 18:15.  
 
What separates Moses from the other Old testament prophets like Isaiah, Daniel, or Jeremiah?

A Covenant.

Moses was a "covenant bringer", and for a Prophet to be like "unto him" that prophet would have to have a Covenant!

As Jeremiah said, again establishing that "Old Covenant" was not the final word, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" Jeremiah 31:31-34.  

Now the writer Hebrews says, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13.      
The Old Covenant was added because of transgressions and  given to show man his need for a Savior.

When the law said "don't covet", and I know that I have coveted, then I am aware of my need to be saved.
Once I am born again however, with the Character of God wirtten on my heart, I no longer need an external law that is contrary to me to be under bondage to so that I will do the right thing. Now the Spirit that is in me leads me to do those things that I ought naturally, because this Character is not separate from me, but is in my heart.

No one is saying that anyone who calls themselves Christian should commit sin. Rather he who is born of God, following the Nature, the Spirit,  that is in Him will walk righteously without an outside law because that is who he is.

Think for a moment...as child of God do you want to steal? Kill? Commit adultery?
Of course not..and that is the point!

The Character that was written on stone, and was contrary to natural man has now, by the Spirit,  been written on the hearts of those that belong to Christ! And those that are led by the Spirit (not the law) are the sons of God!

God's holiness is revealed in both Covenant's because He is the same Person. That Character is fulfilled and established in the tablets of our hearts. That is what we live by - the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

I appreciate that you are posting here, and enjoy speaking of these things. Keep in mind...

It is one thing to say that Pilgrim, myself, or others are going to hell, but quite a different thing to defend a position biblically. If we reach a point of disagreement then so be it..
God knows those who are His, and no doubt they don't all think the same about every issue. But we all agree that He is Lord, and if the Son of God didn't come into the world to condemn it, then certainly we don't want to do that to each other.

In His Grace...








 

Good Word!

asaph

[Psalm 119]

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certaintly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.  Romans 3:31

" What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary. I would not have know sin except through the law. For I would not have known convetousness unless the law had said,"you shall not covet"  Romans 7:6

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." Romans 7:12

"For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man." Romans 7:22

"I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself SERVE THE LAW OF GOD, BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN." (added emph) Romans 7:25

Now by this we we know that we know Him (Jesus) IF we keep his commandments (plural....more than one!) He who says "I know Him and does not keep His commandments IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN him." (added emph) I John 2:3-4

Who is subverting who?

[psalmistsinger]

Psalm 119,
Welcome to the discussion.

Faith does not void the law, but rather the rightousness that is in the law is established in the believer by faith. Righteousness is only imputed by God.

"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. "
Galatians  3:21

Is the law sin? No. It is the covenant that God Himself established with Israel for the purpose of making man aware of his need for a Savior.

The law is not sin but we would not have known sin except for the law.

The law is not sin, yet sin, the sting of death, get's it's strength from the law.

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."
1 Corithians 15:56.

We have all known the Romans 7 experience where we know and agree  - even delight -  with the Law about what is good, yet lack the inner Nature to live up to it.

Thank God for Romans 8, and deliverance from the body of death, where there is now (as opposed to those in Romans 7) no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (seeking to live by their own efforts after the Law) but after the Spirit!

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8: 2-4.

Being led by His Spirit we can keep His commandments because they are written on our hearts! Not a Law carved on stone separate and contrary to our nature, but Naturally as children born of their Father's inherited Character!

Following an inherited Nature for the believer is by no means grievous as is keeping a law that is contrary to the nature of unregenerate man.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" 1John 5:3-4.

If anyone is walking, from their own individual will, their heart, in sin, not merely being tempted, but desiring to sin, that person needs to be saved. If a sow desires mud then it is only following it's nature. It can do nothing else no matter how many external commands it recieves to get clean and stay out of the dirt.
But that is not the condition of the believer.

The believer has the Nature of Christ within, and lives not by outer commandments but by the inner law of Christ that is manifested in ONE word.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."  Galatians 5:14.

So the real issue becomes .....is Jesus sufficient?

I believe He is.

In His Grace...