The Church

[Soldier4Christ]

What constitutes an ordained minister? One that is ordained by men or God? One that has attended a college, seminary or "schooled" in the scriptures by a local church.

I have met many an excellant pastor that had absolutely no formal training preach the very word of God. Yet I have met those that held a masters degree in Theology that were totally lost and did not even believe in Salvation through Jesus Christ.

Next I must say that there is a difference between church services and a Bible study group. However there should be at least one person in the group that is very knowledgeable in the word of God lest they all be led astray. I am not saying that it must be a pastor just one that is  knowledgeable in the word. A good pastor knows that he is not "able to do it all" and must rely on others to help in completing God's work just as Paul had many helpers.

However I find it quite an item of interest to see a person that made such comments about authority on another thread to say what he has said here about all pastors. It seems to be quite a contradiction.

[felix102]

Bronzesnake, what you speak of and support is the work of the Nicolaitians...of which God hates. People do not need to go to school to learn the things of God. This is taught by the Holy Spirit. Whenever we gather together we each have some portion to share. We speak forth what we have learned from the Spirit and receive life from others who speak.

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Scripture clearly tells us that this must be done. But it is only being done through one man. This is not a healthly functioning body.

Many people still rely on the mind. A scribe can know the bible better than anyone but can know the least of anyone concerning the things of God...Just like the Pharisees!!

People do not believe this "free for all" -as John coined- will not work. They do not believe it because they still worship God without the spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where two or three gather in the Lord's name, there the Lord will be in our midst. It is Lord Jesus Himself who is building the church up as we gather together and speak. If we are still in our minds, your conviction Bronzesnake, will be true. It will be unorganized and "incompetant" people will share stupid things. But we are not lead by our own minds, we are lead by the spirit. That is how we will all drink from the same spirit and worship God in spirit and truthfulness.


This is greatly affecting this nation. There are not many people who truly know and worship God. We need to wake up!! You have a name that you are living, but you are truly dead (rev 3:1)! This speaks of churches all over this nation! This nation is not blessed that there is a church on every corner...not if all of them are dead churches!


The True Church
http://www.injesus.com/Groups/ViewMessage.cfm?MessageId=0B006UH5&GroupID=3A006QBI&UCD=xyf

[nChrist]

Bairn,

I think that you are trying to compare grapes with watermelons with Bronzesnake. Untrained and uninformed is the key, not whether the teacher is a pastor or not. Bronzesnake used those terms. I don't teach nuclear physics because I am untrained and uninformed on the subject.

Now, back to the thread topic. I don't go to church to listen to untrained and uninformed teachers. There's the key that has already been mentioned by Bronzesnake. Ten minutes of Christian experience and study does NOT make for a teacher. In fact, it would be gross error to put such a person before a congregation as a teacher. On the other side of the coin, there are many Christians without titles, degrees, or positions who are quite capable of standing before a congregation as a teacher. Now we are back to the keys already mentioned: untrained and uninformed. Any pastor who fails to exercise some degree of diligence about placing teachers before the congregation has no business being a pastor.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 14:1-3  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[Layman Bairn]

PR wrote:  


However I find it quite an item of interest to see a person that made such comments about authority on another thread to say what he has said here about all pastors. It seems to be quite a contradiction.

I assume it is me to whom you refer? I don't recall accentuating all in any comments about pastors, If I did I was wrong to do so. I don't recall the comments about authority off hand either.

I do know that the Bible teaches clearly the placing of leadership in the church and that pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. are all legitimate functions in the body.
my concern is that we have misunderstood these funtions to the point of allowing "professional" pastors, teachers etc. to become a class unto themselves. I regret that if, in my sounding off, I may have seemed to judge the hearts of such men.

I must reiterate my inability to see a biblical distinction between bible study and church meetings.

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (KJV)

Bairn

[Soldier4Christ]

Bairn,

I assume it is me to whom you refer?

Not at all. I have found your posts for the most part to be quite refreshing. My comments were not directed at you nor about you.

I must reiterate my inability to see a biblical distinction between bible study and church meetings.

I must agree to this to a certain extent in that a Bible study is still a gathering of those worshiping God and wanting to learn more about Him. In either case I think that you would agree that a person that is knowledgeable in the word of God should be guiding either group.

[nChrist]

Bronzesnake, what you speak of and support is the work of the Nicolaitians...of which God hates. People do not need to go to school to learn the things of God. This is taught by the Holy Spirit. Whenever we gather together we each have some portion to share. We speak forth what we have learned from the Spirit and receive life from others who speak.

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Scripture clearly tells us that this must be done. But it is only being done through one man. This is not a healthly functioning body.

Many people still rely on the mind. A scribe can know the bible better than anyone but can know the least of anyone concerning the things of God...Just like the Pharisees!!

People do not believe this "free for all" -as John coined- will not work. They do not believe it because they still worship God without the spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where two or three gather in the Lord's name, there the Lord will be in our midst. It is Lord Jesus Himself who is building the church up as we gather together and speak. If we are still in our minds, your conviction Bronzesnake, will be true. It will be unorganized and "incompetant" people will share stupid things. But we are not lead by our own minds, we are lead by the spirit. That is how we will all drink from the same spirit and worship God in spirit and truthfulness.


This is greatly affecting this nation. There are not many people who truly know and worship God. We need to wake up!! You have a name that you are living, but you are truly dead (rev 3:1)! This speaks of churches all over this nation! This nation is not blessed that there is a church on every corner...not if all of them are dead churches!


The True Church
http://www.injesus.com/Groups/ViewMessage.cfm?MessageId=0B006UH5&GroupID=3A006QBI&UCD=xyf

Brother Felix,

WRONG! Bronzesnake is suggesting that teachers should have some knowledge before they are allowed to teach before a congregation. This is simple - common sense. He's not talking about someone giving a testimony.

I would certainly hope you aren't advocating that 2-minute microwave Christians be immediately placed in the pulpit as teachers over a congregation. ARE YOU?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

[Layman Bairn]

PR wrote:

In either case I think that you would agree that a person that is knowledgeable in the word of God should be guiding either group.

Amen PR and thankyou.

1 Tim 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. (KJV)

Beps wrote:

Ten minutes of Christian experience and study does NOT make for a teacher.

I agree wholeheartedly. However…

If a new brother or a sister has been to one meeting only, and where, let’s say, a teacher in leadership has taught worship, from Eph. 5:19

Eph 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; (KJV)

Let’s further suppose this new believer has a marvelous experience making melody in their heart sometime before the next meeting.
I’m not saying this one should now stand and teach, I’m saying he or she now has a supply for the body of Christ. We all need to hear this precious word, wrought in this precious saint by the same Spirit that dwelleth in us all. It is a supply of life for the body. I"m talking about something far beyond the tired old token "testimony time" done occasionally, here and there...if time allows sort of thing.

15 or twenty minutes of sound, experienced teaching about Eph.5:19  and then an hour or so of sweet testimonies about Eph.5:19 and..Hallelujah! the saints are feeding together on Christ and His word. This is a living meeting, a building up by that which every joint supplieth.

My 9 year old son spoke up in a home meeting the other day (only the second time he has) and said: "Christ in us is kinda like springtime, the old dead stuff fell off and the new green stuff is all over everything" Seminary level? better. We all saw a precious work of The Spirit and tasted the glory of God at work in the heart of a tender young son of The Most High.


Concerning teaching, Beps, please touch on this scripture, if you would:


1 Cor 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (KJV)


And again I must add that if a teacher has had no more effect on some who have sat under him for any length of time, than just to create sponges to keep on setting and soaking it in then he has taught very little.
I’m angling here toward the scriptural precedent that seems clear, to me, in the above scripture.

Agape, Bairn

[Bronzesnake]

Brother Felix,

WRONG! Bronzesnake is suggesting that teachers should have some knowledge before they are allowed to teach before a congregation. This is simple - common sense. He's not talking about someone giving a testimony.

I would certainly hope you aren't advocating that 2-minute microwave Christians be immediately placed in the pulpit as teachers over a congregation. ARE YOU?

Love In Christ,
Tom

 Thanks for attempting to clear that up bep.


Bairn quote...

 

Whoa! Bronze man! Bad day?

 Not at all, just pointing out the facts.

Bronze wrote:

“It wasn't the kind of free for all, which you think it was. There was a "minister" the minister handed Jesus (a Rabbi) the book of the prophet Esaias to read from. When Jesus was done reading, He closed the book, gave it back and sat down. This is exactly what happens in many Churches today.”

Bairn response...

Jesus conducted Himself according to the practices of the synagogues when He was there. And you apparently are unaware that, then and now, it is the right and privilege of every Jewish male both to read and comment upon the scriptures in the meetings, beginning at 12 or 13 years old.

 What gives you the impression that I don't know, and agree with this? I'm saying that the kind of Church "meeting" or "town hall" that some long for, is an unworkable situation, where any kind of twisted doctrine and cultist attitudes and ideas could freely flow from the uninformed and uneducated in the Word. Tell me something - would you rather fly on an airplane, which is designed by a trained aviation engineer, or one that was developed by a group of weekend model airplane enthusiasts? Now tell me which is more important - A trip on an airplane, or receiving the unadulterated Word of God by a trained, Bible believing pastor-minister-(add your own noun)

Bronze wrote:

"First of all, when Paul was preaching, most every Jew was well schooled in the scriptures, which made it reasonable for that type of meeting to take place"

Bairn response.

First of all, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He preached rarely to Jews. His teachings on the conducting of meetings overwhelmingly describe psalms, doctrines, tongues, revelations, prophesying, being shared by all in attendance. Here is a little key to consider:

 That is true, but I was attempting to point out the atmosphere of the day, and the verse I posted gave a good description of how synagogues operated, and the comparison to our Churches today. I severely doubt that Paul took instruction from his students. Paul was a "pastor" he taught people about Jesus so that they would be saved. What could an uninformed student in one of Paul's sermons possibly teach him?

1 Cor 14:30-31
30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
(KJV)

 So anyone who has a "revelation" pop into his/her head should be believed unconditionally? Of course not! This is why we have Bible studies. People are free in that environment to voice their opinions and ideas, and yes even their "revelations" at which point, if there is no trained "leader", the entire group will be confused as to what Truth is. Even in a Bible study, there mustbe a pastor/minister (not necessarily school educated ) who can separate truth from fallacy. Surely you concede this?

 

I think I can speak for peh, when I say I have not the least disdain for leadership, or Church government or “ordained” teachers.

 That doesn't make sense my friend. You can speak for yourself in that regard, but peh has clearly displayed at least a general disdain toward Church authority, that much is unambiguous.

Look what we all gained by The Lord ordaining the un-schooled fishermen and Galileans who wrote a good part of our New Testament. If you have sat in a church for a year or more and are not “schooled” in the scriptures and things of God, why are you still there?

 That is a wee bit naïve my friend. Those "fishermen" didn't preach alone until they were filled with the Holy Spirit. I know what you're going to say - we're Christians, we are also filled by the Holy Spirit. That's true, but I think in the case of the disciples, God added some extra hot sauce. I don't know about you, but I have never been able to heal the lame - make the blind see  - raise the dead - etc. These twelve did all these things and more. God gave them a supernatural ability to know His Word in perfection. The once frightened men, went out and preached fearlessly unto death after the Holy Spirit went through their bodies.

 Do you really believe everyone who sits in a Church for a year are qualified to lead an entire congregation? There is a lot more to being a pastor than simply standing in front of a bunch of people on Sunday you know. Pastors deal with all kinds of personal tragedy and troubled relations of all kinds. This is not a "walk on job" by any means.

By the way - I'm not mad, or having a bad day!

[nChrist]

Bairn Said:

Concerning teaching, Beps, please touch on this scripture, if you would:


1 Cor 14:31
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (KJV)

Brother,

I doubt this is what you want to hear, but here's a little mini-study I just did to answer your question.
___________________________

In 1 Corinthians 14, the Apostle Paul is addressing disorder and confusion in the church and ways to avoid or manage disorder and confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:40 is a fair summary of the chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:31  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

1 Corinthians 14:31 does not suggest that all in the service will speak, rather that those who do speak will do so one at a time and not interrupt each other. One must first define what it means to prophesy. To prophesy means to be uttering communications from God (i.e. Divinely Inspired by the Holy Spirit).

It is important to note that the Apostle Paul doesn't stop with the simple instructions that only one at a time may speak, but he adds:

1 Corinthians 14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Many like to leave out Verses 32 and 33 when quoting 1 Corinthians 14:31. In fact, many like to take it completely out of context and forget the fact that the Apostle Paul is actually chewing them out for allowing disorder in their services. Paul addresses many issues of pride, envy of gifts, and indecency in a worship service. One must not neglect the fact that there were false prophets then and now, some wanting to speak for vanity or stature purposes, and other problems associated with wanting to be heard above all others. In short, this was a problem of indecency and disorder in a worship service, then and now.

Now, we are back to:

1 Corinthians 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

In conclusion, don't forget:

1 Corinthians 14:32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
________________________

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Timothy 4:6  If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

[felix102]

Bronzesnake, what you speak of and support is the work of the Nicolaitians...of which God hates. People do not need to go to school to learn the things of God. This is taught by the Holy Spirit. Whenever we gather together we each have some portion to share. We speak forth what we have learned from the Spirit and receive life from others who speak.

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Scripture clearly tells us that this must be done. But it is only being done through one man. This is not a healthly functioning body.

Many people still rely on the mind. A scribe can know the bible better than anyone but can know the least of anyone concerning the things of God...Just like the Pharisees!!

People do not believe this "free for all" -as John coined- will not work. They do not believe it because they still worship God without the spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Where two or three gather in the Lord's name, there the Lord will be in our midst. It is Lord Jesus Himself who is building the church up as we gather together and speak. If we are still in our minds, your conviction Bronzesnake, will be true. It will be unorganized and "incompetant" people will share stupid things. But we are not lead by our own minds, we are lead by the spirit. That is how we will all drink from the same spirit and worship God in spirit and truthfulness.


This is greatly affecting this nation. There are not many people who truly know and worship God. We need to wake up!! You have a name that you are living, but you are truly dead (rev 3:1)! This speaks of churches all over this nation! This nation is not blessed that there is a church on every corner...not if all of them are dead churches!


The True Church
http://www.injesus.com/Groups/ViewMessage.cfm?MessageId=0B006UH5&GroupID=3A006QBI&UCD=xyf

Brother Felix,

WRONG! Bronzesnake is suggesting that teachers should have some knowledge before they are allowed to teach before a congregation. This is simple - common sense. He's not talking about someone giving a testimony.

I would certainly hope you aren't advocating that 2-minute microwave Christians be immediately placed in the pulpit as teachers over a congregation. ARE YOU?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

I may not be right in saying that Bronzesnake is supporting the works of Nicolaitians. But I do believe this is happening all over this nation by the spirit of what Bronzesnake was talking about. I should say instead that "You may not know it, but I believe this is the work of the Nicolaitians."

What do you mean by the following?

I would certainly hope you aren't advocating that 2-minute microwave Christians be immediately placed in the pulpit as teachers over a congregation. ARE YOU?

2 minute microwave Christians? Not being sarcastic, dont know what you mean.



What is happening to the churches...

There are people going to schools to become ministers. This isnt a bad thing but see what happens because of this.

This whole process becomes binded by the world. With my lack of good vocabulary it means that...It is then no longer any different from going to school to become an engineer or doctor.

He becomes a pastor of a church. This is his job...what he went to school for. The objective becomes numbers in the pews not for Christ Himself. This is how the pastor makes his living. This is his life.

But then we come across scripture

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

The pastor will not let this happen. Because this will threaten the function of the pastor. Because the pastor does not have a heart for God but for the things of this world. That is his livelyhood...the people in the church who provide money for the pastor. It is no different than choosing a job over taking the cross and following Christ.

If there is any chance of God's revival, these men must forsake all things and sacrifice all things for God. Pray for the men who are in this situation. This is big reason why the Church is dying.

[peh]

felix102 said, "Where two or three gather in the Lord's name, there the Lord will be in our midst. It is Lord Jesus Himself who is building the church up as we gather together and speak. If we are still in our minds, your conviction Bronzesnake, will be true. It will be unorganized and "incompetant" people will share stupid things. But we are not lead by our own minds, we are lead by the spirit. That is how we will all drink from the same spirit and worship God in spirit and truthfulness."

How refreshing to hear the trust in the Spirit of God vouchsafed here.   Instead of how horrible it would be if an unlearned fisherman (oops, I meant church goer) should say something inaccurate, and that would lead another of the simple sheep astray.  

If we are Christian, by definition, we have the mind of Christ.  If that mind is to be used, it must be exercised by the one possessing it.   Yet the present system keeps the new born in their pews, silent and untested, afraid to speak, and because they are not being given opportunity to express what the Spirit is speaking to them, it stays within, effectively preventing anyone else from hearing it.  

No wonder so many young people stay so far from traditional churches.   Nothing to say, nothing to do but to sit silently and listen to someone "learned" speak what may have no  connection to what they do know as life.

In addition, the usual system is, as felix102 pointed out, part of the clergy vs laity system that has spawned authoritative and divisive hierarchy within the Body of Christ which was never meant to exist.   1 Cor 12:14 "For in fact the body is not one member but many"

Someone has said that Paul was a teacher and didn't have church members speaking in church when he was speaking.  Where that came from, I fail to find in Scripture.   But even if he was the main one speaking, he is the one that did speak the verses in 1 Cor concerning the psalms, hymns, etc that each one had and that Scripture has been posted already.  

I see that even then, in the face of those verses, there are still those who want to argue that Paul didn't really mean it, he was just telling them how they were behaving, not advocating the behavior.   And this in plain view of 1 Cor 12:4  "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.", and the like.

As 'SOMEONE' has said, "But wisdom is justified by her children."    

[Bronzesnake]

 who was it that said... "The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord."  Oh ya, that was Jesus.

felix quote...

 

I may not be right in saying that Bronzesnake is supporting the works of Nicolaitians. But I do believe this is happening all over this nation by the spirit of what Bronzesnake was talking about. I should say instead that "You may not know it, but I believe this is the work of the Nicolaitians."

 So let me get this straight my young friend. You judge me to be a person who acts in a way, which God hates because I believe that a student must have a teacher, and that the student must listen in order to learn, and that the student doesn't teach the master - the master teaches the student?

 You need to pray to God for forgiveness my young friend, because you have levied against me a serious judgement - a false judgement, which was born out of anger, because you disagreed with me.

 How supposedly intelligent people can reason that the school should be run by the students is beyond simple logic. It is an indefensible position, a fool's overture.

 How supposedly learned Christians can proselytize that as soon as a person accepts Jesus - at that very moment, he/she becomes a Biblical scholar and a teacher, because at that moment the newbie is moved by the spirit, is childlike in it's entirety. Why do we even need Bibles? I mean, once we accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit will write His Word on our hearts right? You no doubt know the Bible by memory right? If someone asks you to quote chapter and verse without the aid of your computer or a Bible, you could do it all day long right? Humble yourselves students. Your misguided assertions are proof positive that you are in dire need of instruction from a qualified pastor, because you haven't got a clue.

I’ve come across this “I know all the answers” attitude before, when I had my carpet installation business. One particular fellow sticks out. He had some experience installing when I hired him as a “helper” I tried to teach him, but he insisted on doing it his way, because he had been installing for “over a year” I honestly liked the young Turk, but he insisted on pretending to be a skilled installer because of his one years experience, he was convinced that he knew what he was doing – he didn’t. In the end, I had to fix too many of his screw ups, and I had to get rid of him. The kicker is, that I know I could have taught him to become a skilled installer, if he only had have listened to me.  

 In your Church dream, you will need all the help you can get in order to decipher the Truth from the mad ramblings of the newbie Christian theologians. Good luck to you.

 I'll cease in participating any further with such as these. One cannot reason with childlike logic such as this

Oh, by the way, I’m not mad and I have had a great day!  

[Layman Bairn]

Bronzesnake,

We are on two separate trails here. I simply believe that “all may prophesy that all may learn and all be comforted”  not all may lead, all may teach, all may conduct. Willy nilly etc.

Bronze wrote:

What could an uninformed student in one of Paul's sermons possibly teach him?

 I’m going to stretch here and propose that Paul’s students were not uninformed. What would that say for Paul’s fervent laboring? I can imagine Paul receiving no greater comfort and blessing than to hear one of his “students” stand and share a rich testimony from the Life and teaching of The Holy spirit imparted through Paul’s ministry. The student could “teach” him afresh the glorious miracle of God’s transforming work in a once lost soul.


Bronze wrote:

I'm saying that the kind of Church "meeting" or "town hall" that some long for, is an unworkable situation, where any kind of twisted doctrine and cultist attitudes and ideas could freely flow from the uninformed and uneducated in the Word.

I have met this way for years. The situation is totally workable because the members are equal and valued and the shepherds, the leadership, stand watch while the flock feeds together. No twisted, cultist… what you said.
If the pasture gets short the shepherds know where to go next.

Bronze wrote:

Do you really believe everyone who sits in a Church for a year are qualified to lead an entire congregation?

No. I believe a believer indwelt by the Spirit of the living God is qualified to stand and release his portion in the meetings…decently and in order. I believe the body is built by “that which every joint supplieth”. I believe the “professional” clergy have, even if unintentionally, stopped the mouths of the saints, the saints of whom it is said:


Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (KJV)
 


1 Cor 12:18-21
18. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19. And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20. But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
(KJV)

nor again the learned to the babe.

Bairn

[nChrist]

Brother Felix,

If you have a pastor like the one you described, you have the wrong pastor and are probably in the wrong church.

You are quoting 1 Corinthians 14, but it doesn't appear that you have a clue what it means. Read the entire chapter again and you might understand why some knowledge and experience is necessary for a Bible teacher. Take a look at my post just before your post, and that should help you get a start.

I'm not suggesting that a Bible teacher must have a degree, a formal education in the Bible, or the need of any titles or positions. Some of the best sermons I've ever heard were given by people with no formal education at all. What I will say bluntly is very simple - a baby Christian is not a Bible teacher. I'm not saying anything bad at all about baby Christians.

I asked you above if you advocate putting a person who has been a Christian for 2 minutes behind the pulpit and giving him the responsibility of teaching a congregation of people. If you say "Yes", I see no reason to continue this discussion. As a perfect example of this discussion, you are incapable right now to teach 1 Corinthians 14:26. That's not saying anything bad. You simply need some study, work, experience, and a teacher with that portion of Scripture before you try to teach it yourself.

Please don't get the idea that I'm claiming to be any Bible expert, but I have been studying the Bible for over 50 years. There is some value to many years of diligent study, and there is also a necessity for learning and continued study. Thus, you also have an explanation about why there is some value for elders with lengthy study and experience. If you reject this Biblical principle and others that relate to pastors and teachers, you will probably be burdened with errors and misunderstanding a LONG time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

II Timothy 4:8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

[felix102]

For now, I will stop replying here for a little. I want people to have the chance to read all this before we go on and make this thing 5 pages. I would hope that everyone would read this entire thing and consider all the posts carefully. Pray over the verses presented here and if you do it with a pure heart turned only to the Lord, you will know what it means.



Bronzesnake and BEP, I will reply to your most recent post soon.