Is Christianity Jewish ?

[John the Baptist]

I have to disagree with eliyosef's assertion that the promise given to Abraham was not to Gentiles, and AW's comment about "all Israel" being saved.

Studying the covenant in Genesis 17:1-6 I found that a "hamon goyim"(many nations), in verse four is a promise to make Abraham a father of "multitudes of Gentiles", specifically, a people who would cause a tumultuous commotion, or great noise (about Abraham's God), throughout the world. Their heirs would be exceedingly fruitful.

Here is the Strongs of many nations in vs. five:

01995 Nwmh hamown haw-mone’ or Nmh hamon (#Eze 5:7) haw-mone’

from 01993; TWOT-505a; n m

AV-multitude 62, noise 4, tumult 4, abundance 3, many 3, store 2, company 1, multiplied 1, riches 1, rumbling 1, sounding 1; 83

1) (Qal) murmur, roar, crowd, abundance, tumult, sound
1a) sound, murmur, rush, roar
1b) tumult, confusion
1c) crowd, multitude
1d) great number, abundance
1e) abundance, wealth
*******
01471 ywg gowy go’-ee rarely (shortened) yg goy go’-ee

apparently from the same root as 01465; TWOT-326e

AV-nation 374, heathen 143, Gentiles 30, people 11; 558

n m
1) nation, people
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m 1c) Goyim? =" nations"

To me, this means that Abraham was the father of both the Jewish people and the Gentile people. Both houses of Israel were branches cut off by their sins and taken into captivity. Ephraim (being those of the lost tribes) would represent those when Jesus spoke of other "sheep which are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." And "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (John 10:16; Matthew 15:24) - that have heard the voice of the shepherd, Jesus, and have been grafted back in. Judah went back to Jerusalem and rebuilt the wall, but rejected Messiah which is explained in Romans 11:25-26 - "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus all Israel will be saved...." Notice that ALL Israel will be saved in the end, which does go back to Ezekial 37 and the uniting of the two sticks or dead branches that had been cut off but now to be brought to life by His Spirit.

Another reference to the two houses of Israel is in Hebrews 8:8 were Israel and Judah are the recipients of the better covenant through Christ. Israel was always known as the house of Ephraim or Joseph, as the house of double blessing and the first born of God. Ephraim means to prosper while in captivity.
Here is a prophetic statement about these two dhouses that is being fulfilled even now:
Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
As I have stated at earlier times. I think the church is the house of Ephraim, hidden in a "pleasant place" - the USA - all these years and never really lost to God. As the Jews, the house of Judah convert and become aware of Messiah, the two houses will once again become "one" in God's hand.

Hosea 9:13  Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Jeremiah 31:9  They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

********
How about Gen. 12:5 "...and the [SOULS] that he had gotten in Haran. ..." And then in Lev. 17:8! "And thou shall say unto them. (?) Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, [OR OF THE STRANGERS] ..."  (Verse 9) [SHALL BE CUT OFF]!

You are right, Abraham was the father of all. But, ALL [ARE] SPIRITUAL JEWS if they are Christs! Rom. 2:28-29.

[ollie]

How can the conclusion Jesus was a "diviner" be reached when it is asserted by the conclusioner that there is no historical record of Him?

[Heidi]

John,
Are you free from sin? If you are, then you are the second perfect person who's ever lived. Maybe you should be canonized. Happy face.

[John the Baptist]

John,
Are you free from sin? If you are, then you are the second perfect person who's ever lived. Maybe you should be canonized. Happy face.

**********
Hi Heidi,
If you were [sincerely] asking the question of me, I would explain to you the Everlasting Gospel Plan according to Rev. 14:6. But I do not know if you are sincere or not, do I??

Yet, let me just leave you with a few verses from the Master' Word. Can you understand Paul's descriptive words?? See Philippians 3:12, and then verse 15! Or some extra ones of verse 16? Then comes 18-19??? No law??? Hardly!

But which class are PERFECT "IN" CHRIST? See the "IN" CHRIST of Rom. 8:1

[eliyosef]

I have to disagree with eliyosef's assertion that the promise given to Abraham was not to Gentiles, and AW's comment about "all Israel" being saved.

Studying the covenant in Genesis 17:1-6 I found that a "hamon goyim"(many nations), in verse four is a promise to make Abraham a father of "multitudes of Gentiles", specifically, a people who would cause a tumultuous commotion, or great noise (about Abraham's God), throughout the world. Their heirs would be exceedingly fruitful.

Here is the Strongs of many nations in vs. five:

01995 Nwmh hamown haw-mone’ or Nmh hamon (#Eze 5:7) haw-mone’

from 01993; TWOT-505a; n m

AV-multitude 62, noise 4, tumult 4, abundance 3, many 3, store 2, company 1, multiplied 1, riches 1, rumbling 1, sounding 1; 83

1) (Qal) murmur, roar, crowd, abundance, tumult, sound
1a) sound, murmur, rush, roar
1b) tumult, confusion
1c) crowd, multitude
1d) great number, abundance
1e) abundance, wealth
*******
01471 ywg gowy go’-ee rarely (shortened) yg goy go’-ee

apparently from the same root as 01465; TWOT-326e

AV-nation 374, heathen 143, Gentiles 30, people 11; 558

n m
1) nation, people
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m 1c) Goyim? =" nations"

To me, this means that Abraham was the father of both the Jewish people and the Gentile people. Both houses of Israel were branches cut off by their sins and taken into captivity. Ephraim (being those of the lost tribes) would represent those when Jesus spoke of other "sheep which are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." And "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (John 10:16; Matthew 15:24) - that have heard the voice of the shepherd, Jesus, and have been grafted back in. Judah went back to Jerusalem and rebuilt the wall, but rejected Messiah which is explained in Romans 11:25-26 - "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus all Israel will be saved...." Notice that ALL Israel will be saved in the end, which does go back to Ezekial 37 and the uniting of the two sticks or dead branches that had been cut off but now to be brought to life by His Spirit.

Another reference to the two houses of Israel is in Hebrews 8:8 were Israel and Judah are the recipients of the better covenant through Christ. Israel was always known as the house of Ephraim or Joseph, as the house of double blessing and the first born of God. Ephraim means to prosper while in captivity.
Here is a prophetic statement about these two dhouses that is being fulfilled even now:
Ezekial 37:16  Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17  And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
As I have stated at earlier times. I think the church is the house of Ephraim, hidden in a "pleasant place" - the USA - all these years and never really lost to God. As the Jews, the house of Judah convert and become aware of Messiah, the two houses will once again become "one" in God's hand.

Hosea 9:13  Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Jeremiah 31:9  They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

********
How about Gen. 12:5 "...and the [SOULS] that he had gotten in Haran. ..." And then in Lev. 17:8! "And thou shall say unto them. (?) Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, [OR OF THE STRANGERS] ..."  (Verse 9) [SHALL BE CUT OFF]!

You are right, Abraham was the father of all. But, ALL [ARE] SPIRITUAL JEWS if they are Christs! Rom. 2:28-29.

"John did you forget about bout Abraham's Son Ishmael."  No John you are not spiritual Jews you are Goyim(i.e. gentiles or fo other nations)context. Paul whom you are quoting was barely a Jew he spent way too much time with the greeks . OK the Hebrew Av'Haman Goyim does not mean a multitude of Gentiles for two very good reasons. 1. the definition of goyim is Nations or it could mean gentiles or gentile nations if used with vulgarity or if context demands as such. 2.Here in the case of the Now Avraham the Jew it is implying he will father a multitude of nations of his offspring.  His offspring(i.e. the previous verses) are the Jews and those who are associated with Him such as Ishmael. You see in teh previous lines the covenant established with Abraham was not only the covenant of circumcision but of being  being fruitful and his children will be fruitfull and the nations that come from his children are the Nations it is speaking of. The context of teh word brings it to Nations and not Gentiles. For one Avraham at the time of the covenant was not a gentile anymore but the first Jew so the context for gentile nations was thrown out. Nice try

[Heidi]

John,
The law is now for our BENEFIT, rather than a necessity to get into heaven. Jesus said that no on can ever take away any letter of the law. The law will always be true. BUT, Jesus forgave us, PRECISELY because we are incapable of keeping the law. Now that we are forgiven, the law is in our hearts rather than on a piece of paper. The more of our sins that we confess, the more forgiveness we receive which is what produces the fruits of the spirit. Once we see how we are still attached to greed, envy, lust, gluttony, sloth, pride and wrath, we realize that we can never be sinless. The only thing that makes us perfect is Christ's blood. Therefore, my earlier statement that we Christians still sin, stands.

[John the Baptist]

John,
The law is now for our BENEFIT, rather than a necessity to get into heaven. Jesus said that no on can ever take away any letter of the law. The law will always be true. BUT, Jesus forgave us, PRECISELY because we are incapable of keeping the law. Now that we are forgiven, the law is in our hearts rather than on a piece of paper. The more of our sins that we confess, the more forgiveness we receive which is what produces the fruits of the spirit. Once we see how we are still attached to greed, envy, lust, gluttony, sloth, pride and wrath, we realize that we can never be sinless. The only thing that makes us perfect is Christ's blood. Therefore, my earlier statement that we Christians still sin, stands.

******
Hi, you did not answer [my] 'sincere' question as to your sincereity?

And about the Law of God. It NEVER was a way to get into heaven!! It was ALWAYS CHRIST! "Without me ye can do nothing" (John 15) What did Cain's offering show us?

The Gospel IS EVERLASTING as IS THE LAW OF GOD. Satan fell from grace, how? What condemned him?? The verses are Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20 again. The ones of Heb.11:13 ALL died being saved the SAME WAY! [AN 'OBEDIENT' FAITH IN CHRIST]

---John

[Heidi]

Before Christ came to the earth, John, Heaven didn't exist. People were left with having to obey the law to feel redeemed. The Jews and the Moslems still have to do that today. Once Christ came to the earth, He had to preach to the ones who hadn't heard His message in Abraham's bossom. Christ was always there from the beginning but He had to suffer on the cross and die for us in order that we be forgiven and receive the holy Spirit. As Paul says, we are NO LONGER slaves to the law as people once were.

[ollie]

How can the conclusion Jesus was a "diviner" be reached when it is asserted by the conclusioner that there is no historical record of Him?

[ollie]

Where are the references that inform that Paul was a Greek Jew?



Paul tell us of whence he came:

Philippians 3:4.  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5.  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6.  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 7.  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8.  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 

[eliyosef]

Where are the references that inform that Paul was a Greek Jew?



Paul tell us of whence he came:

Philippians 3:4.  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5.  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6.  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 7.  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8.  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 

So you are saying paul was the founder of your religion now I'm confused ....lol...  I highly doubt just by looking at his theological points that he was anything less thana greek Jew.

[Heidi]

Paul was a Roman who was baptized with the Holy Spirit. God periodically gave the Holy Spirit to some people in the OT, David being one of them. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to earth after He died. The disciples all received it at pentecost which is what made them all of a sudden give their lives up for Christ when they had previously run away from Him. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus. The Holy Spirit comes from God which you should know if you believe the Torah. The holy Spirit showed Paul and the disciples that Jesus was the messiah and the way to God. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot believe that Christ is the messiah, just like David couldn't do God's will without the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is from God and it also shows us that Jesus is the way to God, Jesus has to be the way to God because God is telling us that through the Holy Spirit.  Once we receive the Holy Spirit, we feel the presence of Jesus. It isn't a decision based on words, it is a knowledge that he is real and is telling the truth. Without the Holy Spirit, you cannot believe in God.

[ollie]

Paul was a Roman who was baptized with the Holy Spirit. God periodically gave the Holy Spirit to some people in the OT, David being one of them. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to earth after He died. The disciples all received it at pentecost which is what made them all of a sudden give their lives up for Christ when they had previously run away from Him. Paul received the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus. The Holy Spirit comes from God which you should know if you believe the Torah. The holy Spirit showed Paul and the disciples that Jesus was the messiah and the way to God. Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot believe that Christ is the messiah, just like David couldn't do God's will without the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is from God and it also shows us that Jesus is the way to God, Jesus has to be the way to God because God is telling us that through the Holy Spirit.  Once we receive the Holy Spirit, we feel the presence of Jesus. It isn't a decision based on words, it is a knowledge that he is real and is telling the truth. Without the Holy Spirit, you cannot believe in God.

Paul was a Roman citizen, but he was not Roman, but Jewish of the tribe of Benjamin, born in Tarsus, Celicia.

[ollie]

Where are the references that inform that Paul was a Greek Jew?



Paul tell us of whence he came:

Philippians 3:4.  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
 5.  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
 6.  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
 7.  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 8.  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
 9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 

So you are saying paul was the founder of your religion now I'm confused ....lol...  I highly doubt just by looking at his theological points that he was anything less thana greek Jew.

Say what???    

[ollie]

How can the conclusion Jesus was a "diviner" be reached when it is asserted by the conclusioner that there is no historical record of Him?


No answer yet!