Does Election necessarily mean Rejection?

[aw]

I can agree with that. They will claim their works or trying to be or do good, but that will serve only to determine their degree of punishment- the second death or eternal separation from God.

aw

[Left Coast]

I am not sure what you believe. Do you understand that believing is a work.
And to believe on Jesus is Gods work.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Petro]

There are christians, that claim believing is a work. and furthermore even claim this is the work is that they perform which clinches their salvation.

Unforunately, the scriptures disagree with this line of thinking, it is simply a logical conclusion using the worlds wisdom, to establish something for the man that feels a need to work, and so he throws in his two mites, by claiming he believed (afterall I must do something, since I do have free will),
and then continues working to keep obeying commandments perfectly, worried that he may lose salvation.

However the fact is man is given everything he needs to come by faith in the finished works of Christ Jesus, and that includes the gift of "believing", and God does this as He draws men to Himself, because one must believe the Words He has spoken to us thru His dear Son, first

Note this verse carefully; How anyone can say, the work of God is a work I can do; No man can do the work of God, until AFTER he has believed God, and God gives that person the gift of being able to believe Him, and that faith is enough to believe in Jesus.

Phil 1
29  For unto you it is given in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him but also to suffer for his sake;

Believeing is the work of God which He performs in unbelievers, and no unbeliever can do this work of his own volition, but can come to belief by grace thru faith ONLY after the unbelieving sinner confessess his sin of unbelief to a righteous God.

This my friends is the truth about the work of God, no real christian would nor should ever claim he believed;
 to do so is to reveal he still dwells in unbelief, and does not understand the gospel of grace at all.

Christ died for sinners while they were yet in sin, dead in sin and tresspass.  

They that are Spiritually Dead are incapable of believing anything.  They donot andf cannot receive the things of God, neither can they perceive spiritual truths, because God is a Spirit. (1 Cor 2:14)


Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Now in the lite of the scripture I have shared , lets look at the verse Left Coast has shared, closely;


John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We can know see, the work of God, in sinners produces belief in Christ, because that person has believed the Word that Christ has spoken from the Father (Deut 18:18-19), and this work is granted freely by God.

The work this man goes on to work for God, will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ, if it burns, this man will suffer loss but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor 3:15)

Blessings,
Petro

[Left Coast]

We keep Gods commandments by effort because His commandments are works that we perform.
Thus we cannot get ourselves saved by keeping Gods commandments.
God commands us to believe:

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Different people have different abilities some people believe everything, we call them gullible, some people believe almost nothing, we call them skeptical.
But to believe unto salvation can only come from God.
Petro, we agree on many things, so I’m not sure if this is a typo:

There are christians, that claim believing is a work. and furthermore even claim this is the work is that they perform which clinches their salvation.

The problem isn’t that they think they are getting themselves saved by works. The problem is they think they are not performing a work when they believe. So they put their trust in believing, when often all they have is an intellectual understanding as to who Jesus is. They want to join up and be part of the saved ones. I’ve never met anyone that truly wanted to go to hell.
Can believing save us from Hell I don’t think so. It won’t keep the devils out of Hell:

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 People want to be saved but few want it on Gods terms.
We want to be in control. But salvation is entirely Gods work. Because it is God who changes our heart people of all sorts of different ages, abilities, and backgrounds are saved. God saves babies but how can a baby believe?

[aw]

For me, Romans 10 says it best as related to believing "with the heart." The kind of faith that devils and some people have is nothing more than mere mental assent or intellectual orthodoxy. They believe that there is a God and even may believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world, but they do not believe it for themselves.  His death, burial, and resurrection means nothing to them except that they are facts. That kind of faith will not save them, but the kind that does is UNTO GOOD WORKS.

That kind of believing will be manifested in good works that bring glory to God.

aw

[Petro]

Left Coast,

I am confused by the words you use, allow me to point them out.

posted by leftcoast as reply #34
We keep Gods commandments by effort because His commandments are works that we perform.
Thus we cannot get ourselves saved by keeping Gods commandments.
God commands us to believe:

I assume you are speaking of God the Father's commandments, in this paragraph.

Then you quote;

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

John, is speaking of Jesus the Son, at this verse of scripture, while it is true, ultimately He is God in the flesh, and he has given commandments of his own to them that recognize this great truth;  the commandments you refer to above (at your first quote) , are  from the father, one can assume you are refering to are the 10 commandments together with all the ordinances given to Moses.

Christians understand the Law of Moses was abolished at the cross, so the point you have raised is different from the verse you have quoted.

And I agree with you, "we cannot get ourselves saved by keeping Gods commandments.", you state this perfectly clear herein.

On the otherhand,then you say;

The problem isn't that they think they are getting themselves saved by works. The problem is they think they are not performing a work when they believe.

I Don't know what point you are trying to make, herein.??

I am saying, that to believe in a way that will save , one must believe that there is a God first. On this one great truth, hinges everything else this person does, because to be taught of God and to learn from Him, one must be willing to obey His words spoken by His Son.

So the first stop is at the father, after having heard the Sons words which He spoke on behalf of the Father.

In spite of what many believe, no man can go to Christ unless, he first goes to the Father(Jhn 6:44), and no man can go to the Father but by the Son (Jhn 14:6), and unless the Son reveals the Father to that man. (Lk 10:22) and only when the man repents and is granted repentance (Acts 11:18), will God give him to the Son, and the Son will give that person [eternal life and he shall never perish (Jhn 10:28), because this is the will of God the Father, that, as  many as  He gives the Son,  He (the Son) should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.(Jhn 6:39)

You said;

The problem is they think they are not performing a work when they believe. So they put their trust in believing

You confuse the issue, I haved no idea how a person that does not believe he did a work when he believed , could place his faith in  the fact he produced believing to believe.  This statement doesn't make sense.

It is evident to me, that a Christian who has been taught by God and hast believed God's Word,  knows and understands, his faith to believe God, is the result of God's free gift thru His Grace. And would never takle credit for this work God performs in his heart, afterall, no one can believe anything unless God gives the person a new heart to believe, with.

The evidence God has taught him, and this man has learned of God, is, that he places the faith given to Him by God on the finished work of Jesus, no man plays or played a part in this except to have caused the death of Jesus.

For if one believes Jesus died for him, then he caused Jesus to die, because of his sins, whom Jesus died for.

So I guess, if we want to take credit for something, we ought to be honest and, confess that because we are sinners and HE died for sinners, then we caused his death.

When and if men, seek to take credit for believing in God, this could very well be an indication, this man is still in the flesh.

And your quote;

People want to be saved but few want it on Gods terms.
We want to be in control

.

, is the truth.

This for sure is a quality of the natural man.  Regardless of what that man says.

As for;

But salvation is entirely Gods work. Because it is God who changes our heart people of all sorts of different ages, abilities, and backgrounds are saved.

This is very true, and it answers your last Question.

God saves babies but how can a baby believe?

If you really believe salvation is entirely Gods work, you would not ask this question.

But you do, because you presume to know that babies cannot communicate with God, or that there is a rigid formula God must follow to save the deaf and dumb, or the blind and those who cannot think nor understand because their brains never developed properly.

This presupposition is destroyed by Luke 1:15, since John the Baptist, even from his mother's womb, was filled with the Holy Ghost, also, God loved Jacob and hated Esau, before they were born or even had done right or wrong, and the reason why the scriptures reveal this truth to us, is so that we may know He is Soveriegn.  (Rom 9:11)

Even Nebuchadnezzar said:

And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
........all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?  (Dan 4:34-35)

And at;

Rom 9
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Boy, if there is any verse which points out the fact that salvation "is not of works" this is it.

I told you before, God formulated a plan, it is his plan not ours, we only can know, what he is willing to reveal to us.

We know, and so does Satan, that there are  two seedlines (remember he was present when God pronounced the curse at the Garden), one belongs to him, and the other of the woman (Gen 3:15), Jesus is of the seed of the woman (the only begotten), we (all mankind) are born in the serpents seedline, and whosoever God has chosen to adopt from the serpents seedline, will be saved, regardless if Satan kills infants or  the mentally disturbed, God rules supreme in His creation, He Will do What is Right, on this I confident and it is here, will rest my case.

God Bless,

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro
The entire bible is Gods commandments. For instance in the book of revelation we are commanded not to add to the prophecy of the book.
Since all scripture comes directly from God, God breathed, the commandment to believe on the name of Jesus is one of Gods commandments. That is why it says, “this is his commandment…”
The ability to believe comes entirely from God. That is why the bible says, “this is the work of God…”

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If believing was dependent on us then it would be salvation by works. Since some people are more capable of understanding and believing than others it would be a salvation plan that would be unfair.
We don’t need to really question this that much. A baby simply does not have the mental ability to believe. Yet John the Baptist was saved while in the womb.

Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

The great joy we have is salvation. How could an unborn baby hear about the Lord and have enough understanding to leap for joy. It is only possible because God did 100% of the work.
C. H. Spurgeon not only said John was saved in the womb but Jeremiah was also, and Samuel was just a babe.

That this is possible is proved from Scripture instances. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. We read of Jeremiah also, that the same had occurred to him; and of Samuel we find that while yet a babe the Lord called him. We believe, therefore, that even before the intellect can work, God, who worketh not by the will of man, nor by the blood, but by the mysterious agency of his Holy Spirit, creates the infant soul a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then it enters into the “rest which remaineth for the people of God.” By election, by redemption, by regeneration, the child enters into glory, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way.

From the sermon, “Infant Salvation”.

Man is spiritually dead. Lazarus is a picture of unsaved man. He has been dead for several days and he stinks. The dead don’t see, hear, or think. Jesus cries out Lazarus come forth and he does, it is all the work of God.
       
John 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
John 11:44  And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

[Petro]

Left Coast,

You are echoing what I posted to you. Instead of clearing up, your statement.

I am still wondering what you meant when you stated;

The problem isn't that they think they are getting themselves saved by works. The problem is they think they are not performing a work when they believe.

You posted this in reply #34, in response to my statement at my reply #33,

My quote;

There are christians, that claim believing is a work. and furthermore even claim this is the work is that they perform which clinches their salvation.

Was not a typo.

Believing is not a work of man, it is the work God does in man.

As for babies being saved, it is clear from your explanantion, that babies are saved and lost, making it Gods business, since all of His people were chosen in Him from before the foundations of the world, and only He knows who they are, we are not qualified to speak of this matter.

See if you can square this question for me.......

Blessings,

Petro

[Left Coast]

Petro
Believing is the result of salvation not the cause. Believing isn’t just having an intellectual understanding of Jesus, it means we have total and complete faith in Him and in His work of salvation.
Salvation happens when God gives us a new heart.
Hold this next thought for a minute. We are commanded to believe.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We will only keep Gods commandments if He has given us a heart that can keep his commandments.
If He does not give us true belief then we will add our work of believing to try to claim His salvation.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

He makes it clear that this is the way of salvation in Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Can you see that believing on our part is a result of our keeping Gods commandment because He has changed us?
Believing is not available to those that have never heard of Jesus. Would it be fair for God to put our salvation in our hands and then not tell everyone how to do it.
Babies are part of this, in no way did I intend to imply babies are saved then lose their salvation then have to get it again. Once you are saved you do not ever lose your salvation. If believing was a requirement babies would never be able to be saved. Because it requires an ability not available to everyone it is therefore a work.
Some people are saved as babies, they will never lose that salvation.
Most though go through life struggling with these types of questions or ignoring God entirely.
The fact that babies do get saved is the evidence that believing is not a requirement.
God can change a babies heart when they are just an infant. God doesn’t have limitations.
Most people I talk with feel they are saved because THEY believed. They don’t think it is a work they don’t understand that it makes Gods salvation plan unfair.
I hope I have cleared things up a bit but if there are questions I would be happy to try again.

[Allinall]

Backtracking a bit here, so excuse me, but something very interesting dawned on me not long ago.  The bible does say that God chose me to salvation.  This is very explicit.  The words used are dependent upon a knowledge planned - a knowledge of what He would do, not what I would choose.  What dawned on me was this: though it says He chose me to salvation, the bible never says that He chose any to damnation.  That is merely our "logical" presupposition based upon what He does say.  But then, what does He say concerning the lost?

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

2 Peter 3:9

and...

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:3-4

and...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16

Staunch Calvinists will say that the world, and the "all" spoken of here are the elect.  I disagree.  He would have said so if that were the case.  Rather, He says that He wants all to repent, to be saved, and is unwilling that any should die in their sin.  Furthermore, He died once for all!

As God has sovereignly selected those who are saved by His choice, so He has sovereignly expected those whom He has called to come to Him in obedience.  The work is His.  The obedience is ours.  As I have said, I was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and I made a choice that had eternal consequence.  

[Left Coast]

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
 
This would be approximately 2,000,000 people including Sadducees and Pharisees. Are you saying that all always means every single person?

[Allinall]

Come now Lefty, do we need to review the biblical hermeneutic here?  In regards to the "all" it lists, you must consider it to mean what it means contextually.  If you can support that He doesn't mean all in those passages, then contextually, you'd be right.  You cannot do that, however, because it is contextually all inclusive.  No pun intended.  

[Left Coast]

The word “all” rarely means every single person. Perhaps Spurgeon can explain it better.

..." the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ?  "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ... (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)
 
Now think about this for a minute.
Did Jesus pay for your sins?
The payment required is to spend an eternity in Hell for every sin committed.
Jesus had to do literally that. Hell will not come into existence until God creates the new heaven and new earth. But He had to suffer the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for all my sins.
So how did Jesus pay for our sins? It began in the garden of Gethsemane.

Matthew 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Lets count backwards.
Sunday    Day 1
Sat. night   Night 1
Sat.        Day 2
Fri. night   Night 2
Friday      Day 3
Thu. night   Night 3
Where was Jesus Thursday night? In the garden of Gethsemane. That is when He began suffering, we see a key when it says he sweated as it were great drops of blood.

Luke 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

On the cross before He died He cried out, “it is finished.”

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He still had to overcome death but He was finished paying for the sins of those He came to save.
So when it says:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

People view it as meaning He paid for everyone’s sin. That is not possible. The payment only needs to be made once. That is why Jesus could not have paid for the sins of every single person on earth. If Jesus paid the penalty then it wouldn’t be paid again. Even Hindus, Muslims, Satanists, or atheists would never have to go to hell because Jesus can’t take the suffering back.
He paid for the sins of all that God gave him.
 
John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So the evidence that Jesus was speaking of only the elect is found in the above verse.
Now it is true that He did not want anyone to sin. But the fact is we all do sin. And we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born:

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

This is why any salvation plan that an infant cannot accomplish is a false salvation plan.

[Petro]

Left Coast,

If you keep posting, eventually one can figure what is wrong with your doctrine.

you said;

by leftcoast as reply #39
Petro
Believing is the result of salvation not the cause.

This is an error which has taken you down a different road, than the one established by the Word of God.

Can you reconcile this statement with what Paul has written concerning how salvation is obtained;

Please note vs 13, especially;

Eph 1
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Please Note above at vs 13, believing comes before the sealing of the Holy Spirit, or as this verse says; after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

No one can possess salvation unless, he is first sealed by the Spirit of God............this is clear here at this verse.

The statement you have posted which I have re quoted above
is at odds with Holy Writ,

Please reconcile your statement with the scriptures for me.

Nothing you say, beyond this point, matters, since anything you say from here on, is clouded by your erroneous conclusion, that "Believing is the result of salvation", since it based on

"an intellectual understanding of what you think the gosple teaches."

Salvation is the result of believing, and believing is a gift of God, because it is the work of God in everyone that has been chosen from before the foundation of the world.

Blessings,  

Petro