The Trinity

[Soldier4Christ]

Seeker,

Just who do you believe that Jesus Christ is?

[seekeraftertruth]

Seeker,

Just who do you believe that Jesus Christ is?

I believe he is exactly what the Bible says he is....the Son of God, conceived by the holy spirit through Mary, and born in the flesh as a human, and later empowered supernaturally through the holy spirit to do God's Will after he was baptised by John.

The following taken from:
http://www.heraldmag.org/99nd_3.htm
The Jews were aware that God would send a Messiah (Hebrew) or Christ (Greek)--one anointed by God as his prophet, his servant. Moses told them, "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken" (Deuteronomy 18:15). Isaiah said, "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him" (Isaiah 42:1).

These prophecies--and many more like them--consistently describe Messiah as a highly honored subordinate of God Almighty. Jesus was that promised Messiah. He was no ordinary messenger. He was in fact the very son of God, so termed 47 times in the New Testament. Jesus performed every duty faithfully, and has now been exalted to the "right hand of the majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3). "God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Hebrews 1:9). Jesus, always an obedient son to his heavenly Father, now exalted above all others, is still a devoted son and subordinate of the heavenly Father. He does not assume his honor, glory or service on his own. On the contrary, he receives these at the hand of his Father and superior, God himself. "No man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God ... So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son" (Hebrews 5:4,5). "The Son of man came ... to the Ancient of days ... and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom" (Daniel 7:13,14).

Are Jesus and God Co-Equal?

According to the Scriptures, they clearly are NOT equal. In every case, where God and Jesus are referred to in the same context, Jesus is subordinate, and the Father is superior. Here are some of the many texts on this issue: "Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God" (Luke 18:19). "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "The Head of Christ is God" (1 Corinthians 11:3). "[Jesus] sat down on the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12). "Then shall the Son also himself be subject ... that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28) Perhaps most telling of all is that Jesus recognizes God as his own God--his superior, to whom he renders adoration, worship and praise (Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Ephesians 1:17; Revelation 1:6). No scripture says Jesus is co-equal!

Is the Holy Spirit a Person?

Ordinarily there would be no question about this. The holy Spirit of God anointed Jesus at Jordan, who received it not "by measure" (John 3:34). It is "poured out" and "shed" on others (Acts 10:45; Acts 2:17,33; Joel 2:28; Zechariah 12:10). Persons are not "poured," "shed" or "measured," but the spirit, power and influence of God is properly described this way. The holy Spirit of God is variously described in Scripture as the spirit of Truth, Holiness, Life, Faith, Wisdom, Grace, and Glory. The Scriptures also speak of an opposite spirit of Jealousy, Judgment, Burning, Heaviness, Whoredoms, Infirmity, Divination, Bondage, Slumber, Fear, Antichrist and Error. No one would suggest these are persons.

The Scriptures speak of the spirit of Jacob, Elijah, Tiglath-Pilesser, the Philistines, Cyrus, Princes, the Medes, Zerubbabel, and Joshua. Of course these spirits are not persons.

Why, then, would any suppose the "holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30) was a separate being? Actually no one would (and no one did) until the time mysteries and philosophies began to enter Christian dogma. But today, centuries later, some suppose a support for the personhood of the holy Spirit because of the pronouns used for it in the New Testament. For example, "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13). Of the Comforter Jesus said, "I will send him unto you" (verse 7). It sounds like a person because of the pronouns "he" and "him." A little examination into the Greek explains the issue. When "comforter" is meant, the pronoun is masculine, but when "spirit" is intended, the pronoun is neuter. Literally it could be translated "it will guide you." It is simply a matter of grammar, not of personality. The Greek word for "comforter" is a masculine noun, and that for "spirit" is a neuter noun. Therefore the pronouns necessarily follow the gender of the noun. (Actually the genders in verse 13 are supplied by the Greek verbs rather than by explicit pronouns.) No scripture says the holy Spirit of God is a person!

[nChrist]

Seeker and Others,

I see that I did a very poor job in trying to express my thoughts in this discussion about the words of JESUS before His death.

Let me correct any misconceptions about anything I might have said. The entire Holy Bible testifies of the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - the Three being One - ALMIGHTY GOD! is not just a doctrine - rather fact.

Part was a mystery not known to men of other ages. This TRUTH AND ABSOLUTE REALITY was taught by the Apostle Paul, not hundreds of years later. It was taught when the mystery was revealed. THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST was the REALITY of this mystery revealed. Daniel and other prophets of the Old Testament didn't speak of this mystery - simply because it wasn't revealed at that time. This was and is a Church not made with human hands.

I didn't think that I said anything that would lead someone to believe that I questioned the Holy Trinity, because I don't. There are many unsaved people who believe that Jesus was just a man, just a prophet, or just anything other than VERY GOD. Some believe that Jesus was created and have many other thoughts that Jesus was anything other than VERY GOD - THE CREATOR - ALMIGHTY GOD. JESUS CHRIST being very GOD is not just an opinion for debate, rather an absolute fact and at the core of Salvation.

The existence and absolute REALITY of the Holy Spirit is also a fact, not just a doctrine or an opinion. In short, the Holy Trinity is not just an opinion or doctrine subject to debate, rather an absolute fact. Please accept my apology for anything I might have said in a previous post that confuses anyone.

Please let me state with absolute certainty:

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ARE ONE - ALMIGHTY GOD! - the CREATOR! had no beginning and will have no end.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:8-10  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

[Soldier4Christ]

Seeker,

Yes, Jesus Christ was the son of God as is stated throughout the New Testament. He is also God.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.


Do you believe that it is beyond the power of God for both to be true or do you believe that Jesus and the Bible contradict themselves?

[seekeraftertruth]

Seeker and Others,

I see that I did a very poor job in trying to express my thoughts in this discussion about the words of JESUS before His death.

Let me correct any misconceptions about anything I might have said. The entire Holy Bible testifies of the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - the Three being One - ALMIGHTY GOD! is not just a doctrine - rather fact.

Part was a mystery not known to men of other ages. This TRUTH AND ABSOLUTE REALITY was taught by the Apostle Paul, not hundreds of years later. It was taught when the mystery was revealed. THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST was the REALITY of this mystery revealed. Daniel and other prophets of the Old Testament didn't speak of this mystery - simply because it wasn't revealed at that time. This was and is a Church not made with human hands.

I didn't think that I said anything that would lead someone to believe that I questioned the Holy Trinity, because I don't. There are many unsaved people who believe that Jesus was just a man, just a prophet, or just anything other than VERY GOD. Some believe that Jesus was created and have many other thoughts that Jesus was anything other than VERY GOD - THE CREATOR - ALMIGHTY GOD. JESUS CHRIST being very GOD is not just an opinion for debate, rather an absolute fact and at the core of Salvation.

The existence and absolute REALITY of the Holy Spirit is also a fact, not just a doctrine or an opinion. In short, the Holy Trinity is not just an opinion or doctrine subject to debate, rather an absolute fact. Please accept my apology for anything I might have said in a previous post that confuses anyone.

Please let me state with absolute certainty:

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ARE ONE - ALMIGHTY GOD! - the CREATOR! had no beginning and will have no end.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:8-10  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

We understand your position....the mistake wasn't yours, it was mine....see above posts, as I misquoted...it was actually DreamWeavers that said it.  

[seekeraftertruth]

Seeker,

Yes, Jesus Christ was the son of God as is stated throughout the New Testament. He is also God.

Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.


Do you believe that it is beyond the power of God for both to be true or do you believe that Jesus and the Bible contradict themselves?

The verse, "I and my Father are one," can also be interpreted to mean they are one in spirit, not necessarily one entity. Semantically many verses can be interpreted in many different ways.

As to your question regarding "contradictions," I really don't want to get into that, because feathers get ruffled very quickly in that type of debate.....people have a wide range of beliefs regarding the Biblical text, from being "100% inerrant, accurate, and never changing," all the way to the other extreme, that the text has been "corrupted, there is much evidence and proof that verses have been deliberately changed, we don't have the original, and we have no way of knowing what the original may have said."

Do I personally believe there are contradictions or discrepancies in today's texts?  Yes, I do....I think there is too much evidence/proof of this to just ignore...but that is my personal view, and others may feel differently. I think authors like Josh McDowell do a disservice when they gloss over these things and pretend they don't really exist.  Where different stories of the same event are given and the facts don't match up, yes, I'd have to say there are contradictions and discrepancies, and the text has become corrupted over time (both by accident and deliberately).

But back to the point....like I said, there are those who believe in the trinity, and there are those who do not, and it is highly unlikely that the two sides will ever agree. But then if everyone agreed, we wouldn't have over 1,000 denominations, sects, divisions, branches, groups, and organizations, all calling themselves "Christian," would we?  Obviously not everyone agrees with one another, on any number of issues.  

What is important is that Christians agree on the requirements for salvation.....and in this day and age, I'm not even sure the 1,000+ denominations, etc., agree on THAT issue!

[Soldier4Christ]

JESUS CHRIST being very GOD is not just an opinion for debate, rather an absolute fact and at the core of Salvation.

 In short, the Holy Trinity is not just an opinion or doctrine subject to debate, rather an absolute fact.

AMEN!

[nChrist]

Seeker,

I was very confused and read the entire thread again. Dreamweaver said that the word "Trinity" wasn't in the Bible, but he didn't question the absolute reality of the Holy Trinity, and he never would.

There are many words used today that aren't in the Holy Bible, but that does not suggest that the meaning of the word isn't taught in the Holy Bible. The word "Triune" is also not in the Holy Bible. This term is commonly used today in speaking about the Godhead. "Godhead" is in the Holy Bible, and The Triune God is one of man's ways of describing the Holy Trinity - The Godhead.

Here's another example that is spoken of often. Some people say that they don't believe in the Rapture of the Church because the word "Rapture" isn't in the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible uses the phrase, "Caught up to meet the Lord in the air" when referring to JESUS coming for His Church. That is the "Rapture".

Here's another example that fits closer to the topic of the thread. "God made manifest in the flesh" does not hint or suggest that Jesus Christ was created - just the opposite. Jesus Christ was and is Very God - THE CREATOR! The Three which are ONE - ALMIGHTY GOD - existed before the foundation of the world and had no beginning. Mankind has a beginning, but Jesus Christ was NOT just a man. There was only ONE Perfect and Holy Sacrifice capable of rescuing mankind from the curse of sin and death, and HE was GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:26-28  The Spirit also helpeth our infirmities; for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

[nChrist]

Seeker Said:

But back to the point....like I said, there are those who believe in the trinity, and there are those who do not, and it is highly unlikely that the two sides will ever agree. But then if everyone agreed, we wouldn't have over 1,000 denominations, sects, divisions, branches, groups, and organizations, all calling themselves "Christian," would we?  Obviously not everyone agrees with one another, on any number of issues.

What is important is that Christians agree on the requirements for salvation.....and in this day and age, I'm not even sure the 1,000+ denominations, etc., agree on THAT issue!

Seeker,

Islam believes that Jesus was just a man and prophet, subordinate to Mohammed, but the members of Islam are lost. The same is true for all others who deny the absolute Deity of Jesus Christ. So, the agreement or disagreement is ALSO the difference between being Saved or Lost. A Christian has never been defined to include anyone who denies the Deity of Jesus Christ. However, there are some who claim to be Christians who deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. There is no agreement among various denominations that people who deny JESUS are Christians - just the opposite. Those who deny the absolute Deity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are known as false religions and cults, not Christians. It's really just as simple as that.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:12-14  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[AJ]

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 
Hense the magic words...

[Evangelist]

Seeker:

As with some other Christadelphians I have talked with, you tend to make some very pedantic statements as if they themselves were gospel.

Your commentary about the Hebrews, and about the non-existence of trinitarian thought prior to Nicea leads me to believe that you have failed in your first duty to yourself, and to God...and that is to be a Berean, and check out what you hear, or what you read.

Following is just a tidbit of info for you to consider.

Behold O Israel, the LORD your God is one.
Hebrews understood from the very beginning that the word "one" as given in scripture was echad, which is a composite unity, as opposed to be a cardinal of singular value only.

Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom  He is made a second in manner of existence-in position, not in nature "Ad. Autol.", II, 15

Tertullian A.D. 155-220 That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. Apology

I believe that both Theophilus and Tertullian predated the council of Nicea by quite a few years.

[nChrist]

Right...it was DreamWeaver that said it....sorry about that.

However, I stand by my position......aside from the spurious verses, yes there are many other verses used to offer support for the doctrine......just like there are many verses that support the opposing view......which is exactly why there are "pro" and "anti" trinitarians.

The only thing I would like to add is that it appears to me that trinitarians are applying all those verses "after the fact."
The early (1st/3rd century) Christians had no such doctrine and did not teach any such doctrine.  And certainly the Hebrews never had any such doctrine....in fact, for over 4,000 years they clearly understood the "holy spirit" to be the active force/will of God, not a "person."  It was man who personified the holy spirit. The trinity doctrine admittedly is a product of the 3rd/4th century Roman Church.

I'm sorry, but I do not accept "after the fact" arguments as being conclusive......if there was a "trinity," don't you suppose it would have been known to the Christians/Church of the first three centuries? I believe you, and other trinitarians, are interpreting the verses "after the fact," in the light of the doctrine/tradition, which itself didn't even begin until after the third century. The history of the formation of the doctrine is well known, and the plain and simple fact is, it is a product of the 4th century Roman Church, decided by Constantine, in favor of Athanasius, then ratified by the Council at Nicea, and the doctrine had no existence prior to the late 3rd/early 4th century.  What you, and other trinitarians do, is try to interpret and apply Bible verses retroactively, after the fact, in order to support this doctrine. What you cannot seem to understand is there was no such doctrine prior to the late 3rd/early 4th century. The early Christians/Church actually booted people out for believing Christ/God were equal, never mind treating the holy spirit as a co-equal third person in some "trinity."  [A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker, "AD 200. . Noetus had been expelled from the Smyrnaean church for teaching that Christ was the Father, and that the Father himself was born, and suffered, and died."]
See also:
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm
http://www.heraldmag.org/99nd_3.htm
http://bama.ua.edu/~msa/trinity.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/trinity.htm

But, as noted previously, believing in the "trinity" is not required for salvation......so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, one way or another.  Some believe the doctrine is correct, some don't, and I just happen to be one of those who don't.

Seeker,

I'm very sad to learn the source of your confusion. First, I will pray for you. Second, I will sternly state that the false doctrine of the Christadelphians will not be taught on Christians Unite. Further, links to their false material is not permitted here.

In short, one simple and blunt statement will do:

False teaching that denies the deity of Jesus Christ is not permitted here, and it will never be permitted here.

This is the only warning you will receive on this issue. You are welcome to stay and learn, but you are NOT welcome to preach or teach your false doctrine here.

Moderator

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I've been reflecting about this thread and many things going on in the world right now.

This is a lost and dying world. There are many lost people in misery who are dying in their sins, cursed and doomed for eternal punishment. New cults and false religions appear to be rising up every day, so it is apparent that the devil is working overtime to keep the lost away from JESUS.

We should never underestimate the power of the devil to deceive. The devil is now offering jesus with a little "j", NOT JESUS who paid for our sins on the Cross. The devil offers a man, NOT GOD. It is very clever for the devil to use the name of our Lord and Saviour in many false religions. The devil also creates confusion for those who try to witness about the real JESUS with these false religions and cults. AND, these representatives of the devil call themselves Christians. It should come as no surprise that the devil is also trying to use the Holy Bible for his work.

In short, offering the lost a man instead of God is like pouring gasoline on a burning person. So, the devil isn't just clever in his deception, the devil is cruel with his deceptions.

Brothers and Sisters, we should not let the devil discourage us in our efforts to share the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of God's Grace. The devil wants us to be discouraged. We should do the opposite and pray that God gives us the strength to double or triple our efforts in pointing the lost to Christ and away from the anti-christ. The time might be growing short to witness to our friends and family. In fact, tomorrow might be too late.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[2nd Timothy]

Tom, I too have been thinking and praying about this discussion, especially the verse...

Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


It is quite clear, the Jesus was fully God and never ever lost this status at any time.  If He had, then the Salvation would be in question for all.   He was God in the flesh, and submitted Himself in obedience to the Father unto death.   He bore the sins of the world in order to reconcile us to the Father.   He suffered the penalty that the curse of the law brought on us all, yet He was fully innocent.

Jesus did not doubt when He cried "My God My God, why has thou forsaken me".   He was bearing His soul to the Father under the weight of our sin.   Tim's sin, Tom's sin, hopes_daughters sin.   Suffering the full penalty that we deserved.   Note He cries, My God!    Not doubting, but submitting in full obediance, and bearing His soul on our behalf.    For the first time in His humanity on earth, He was left alone to suffer in our stead.   Jesus alone had to experience this without the comforts of His Father.  The Father could not, the Holy Spirit could not.   Jesus payed the full price of my sin and your sin!


Heb 5:6  As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7  Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:10  Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Being made perfect, not only in His Sonship, but through the obediance in His suffering!    He became the author of ETERNAL Salvation for me and you...Praise GOD!!!!!


Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

He is familiar with all our sufferings in this life.   He knows what its like to feel alone, because He's been there.



And then....The cry that shook the world.



"It is finished!"

tel-eh'-o
Disharged, compete, accomplished, pay.


We are discharged from the debt we owe.  Christ alone payed it once and for all.   He suffered as we deserved to suffer, He died as we deserved, He was forsaken as we deserved, yet He was faithful unto death fulfilling the full penalty that we owe thus purchasing our pardon from the Father.     Praise His Holy Name forever!



Lord we can never repay what you have done for us.  Thank you for the FREE gift of Grace, which you bought with your own blood.    You paid the penalty of Justice you demand, even when we deserved death.  You nailed our sins to your very own Son that we might be liberated from them.   Lord we owe you our very lives and an eternity of Praise and Worship.  We love you Lord, and Thank you for Loving us enough to die in our place.

Grace and Peace!

[nChrist]

Tom, I too have been thinking and praying about this discussion, especially the verse...

Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


It is quite clear, the Jesus was fully God and never ever lost this status at any time.  If He had, then the Salvation would be in question for all.   He was God in the flesh, and submitted Himself in obedience to the Father unto death.   He bore the sins of the world in order to reconcile us to the Father.   He suffered the penalty that the curse of the law brought on us all, yet He was fully innocent.

Jesus did not doubt when He cried "My God My God, why has thou forsaken me".   He was bearing His soul to the Father under the weight of our sin.   Tim's sin, Tom's sin, hopes_daughters sin.   Suffering the full penalty that we deserved.   Note He cries, My God!    Not doubting, but submitting in full obediance, and bearing His soul on our behalf.    For the first time in His humanity on earth, He was left alone to suffer in our stead.   Jesus alone had to experience this without the comforts of His Father.  The Father could not, the Holy Spirit could not.   Jesus payed the full price of my sin and your sin!


Heb 5:6  As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7  Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 5:10  Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Being made perfect, not only in His Sonship, but through the obediance in His suffering!    He became the author of ETERNAL Salvation for me and you...Praise GOD!!!!!


Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

He is familiar with all our sufferings in this life.   He knows what its like to feel alone, because He's been there.



And then....The cry that shook the world.



"It is finished!"

tel-eh'-o
Disharged, compete, accomplished, pay.


We are discharged from the debt we owe.  Christ alone payed it once and for all.   He suffered as we deserved to suffer, He died as we deserved, He was forsaken as we deserved, yet He was faithful unto death fulfilling the full penalty that we owe thus purchasing our pardon from the Father.     Praise His Holy Name forever!



Lord we can never repay what you have done for us.  Thank you for the FREE gift of Grace, which you bought with your own blood.    You paid the penalty of Justice you demand, even when we deserved death.  You nailed our sins to your very own Son that we might be liberated from them.   Lord we owe you our very lives and an eternity of Praise and Worship.  We love you Lord, and Thank you for Loving us enough to die in our place.

Grace and Peace!

2nd Timothy,

Brother, I only have one thing to say:

AMEN!