The Church

[Layman Bairn]

Bro Felix 102

What an excellent thread and what excellent discussions. I believe you are pursuing God’s best and His fullness. You have echoed my own longings in nearly all that you have said.

After 35 years as a Christian I am assured that unity will not be brought about except as thirsty ones come and drink. Neither can unity be spoken of in a way that will convince but for a few. Church oneness is an issue of life...The Life. Men with their theologies and preferences have found many ways to toss aside troubling scriptures. I have noticed in many of the responses to your post, a conspicuous lack of scripture and an abundance of excuse making and opinions. It’s because the verses you bring out are uncomfortable and irrefutable. People have devised many little files into which they hurriedly stuff certain passages….some of the favorite files are labeled  “That was their culture, this is now”, or “That’s just Paul’s way of  saying….” Or, one of my favorites, “ in the Greek it actually means…”

 I could list dozens of scriptures right now that are so compelling, if met head on, yet they are by and large whistled right past. It’s like we have carry on luggage that stays with us at all times and then there’s the stuff we just check through to pick up later when we “get there”.

A couple of examples of these “compelling but what do you do with it” verses:

Matt 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (KJV)

Ask any number of Christians about this verse and you’ll get as many different answers. For mercy’s sake! Our entering the kingdom is at stake in this verse! We should labor in prayer over such a serious pronouncement.

Or how about:

2 Cor 3:18
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (KJV)

The Spirit of The Lord does this while we set in an “audience” listening to Christian coated motivational speeches? Like watching T.V. at Jiffy Lube while our car gets serviced?

You quoted 1 Cor 14:26

26.How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (KJV)

This is clearly how the church is to meet (the way I read it). We do meet this way in our home.
Ask 100 pastors to begin pursuing this kind of meeting and you will get 100 negations, all very authoritatively explained of course.

Finally:

Luke 9:49-50
49. And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(KJV)

 I find an inference in: “he that is not against us is for us”, that he also is distinct from “us” hmmm.

God bless you in your seeking Felix and us all.


Song 1:7-8
 HER (us):  7. Tell me, O thou whom my soul loveth, where thou feedest, where thou makest thy flock to rest at noon: for why should I be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of thy companions?
HIM (Christ):  8. If thou know not, O thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' tents.
(KJV)

Agape

Bairn

[2nd Timothy]

So are we saying that Church should be held in homes instead of a large building?   Not that anythings wrong with home church....I'm just not following you now.

I'm lost  

Grace and Peace!

[felix102]

Thanks Bairn.

May God continue to fill you with life and may you constantly be strengthened into your inner man by the power of the Holy Spirit!


2nd Timothy

The word Church you are using means the 'Sunday Church Service'. I am saying that we not only have a large meetings on Sundays...but we have many more meetings throughout the entire week. Just where 2 or 3 meet.

For instance this is how it is done where I live. On mondays I meet with 2 brothers and we do some type of life study. We pray and call on the name of our Lord Jesus. We discuss some problems, revelations, and the life study.

On tuesdays another brother comes over and we have breakfast and we do the same things yet we study something different. Later that night I go to a home meeting.

On wednesday I meet with a larger group of bros and sisters and we go over one chapter in a book. This is our bible study of the week.

On thursday I meet with two groups of brothers in the morning. Later that night if I have time I go to another home meeting.

On friday I meet with some brothers in the morning and I go to a home meeting later that night. All these home meetings are different homes...and there are multiple home meetings each weekday since one home cannot hold all the bros and sisters.

On saturday there is a big meeting in a public building. A brother shares a message or sermon. Then there are testimonies afterwards from many brothers and sisters...and whatever much time we have left. Then we meet again at different homes for dessert and games.

On sunday we would have the "Church Sunday service" But that is basically the same as on saturday where all the brothers and sisters meet. Later that day we have the lord's table where we break the bread.

The number of people in meetings will range from 2 to well over a two hundred on saturday and sunday...maybe more (there are bros or sisters I have never met still!) Bible studies are maybe 10 pple. Home meetings can have 10 to 20 people.

You see even on the weekdays, we are having "Church". Just 2 or 3 brothers meet and we call on the name of the Lord. And Jesus is there in our midst.

As you can see this is not hard to coordinate even with a very large church. And if your church is not large it should be even easier.

[Corpus]

Felix,

You'd make a great monastic  

I admire your commitment to a constant focusing of our lives on God through fellowship. I just don't know how possible it is for those of us with young families and all the commitments that come with it.

[2nd Timothy]

Thanks Bairn.

May God continue to fill you with life and may you constantly be strengthened into your inner man by the power of the Holy Spirit!


2nd Timothy

The word Church you are using means the 'Sunday Church Service'. I am saying that we not only have a large meetings on Sundays...but we have many more meetings throughout the entire week. Just where 2 or 3 meet.

For instance this is how it is done where I live. On mondays I meet with 2 brothers and we do some type of life study. We pray and call on the name of our Lord Jesus. We discuss some problems, revelations, and the life study.

On tuesdays another brother comes over and we have breakfast and we do the same things yet we study something different. Later that night I go to a home meeting.

On wednesday I meet with a larger group of bros and sisters and we go over one chapter in a book. This is our bible study of the week.

On thursday I meet with two groups of brothers in the morning. Later that night if I have time I go to another home meeting.

On friday I meet with some brothers in the morning and I go to a home meeting later that night. All these home meetings are different homes...and there are multiple home meetings each weekday since one home cannot hold all the bros and sisters.

On saturday there is a big meeting in a public building. A brother shares a message or sermon. Then there are testimonies afterwards from many brothers and sisters...and whatever much time we have left. Then we meet again at different homes for dessert and games.

On sunday we would have the "Church Sunday service" But that is basically the same as on saturday where all the brothers and sisters meet. Later that day we have the lord's table where we break the bread.

The number of people in meetings will range from 2 to well over a two hundred on saturday and sunday...maybe more (there are bros or sisters I have never met still!) Bible studies are maybe 10 pple. Home meetings can have 10 to 20 people.

You see even on the weekdays, we are having "Church". Just 2 or 3 brothers meet and we call on the name of the Lord. And Jesus is there in our midst.

As you can see this is not hard to coordinate even with a very large church. And if your church is not large it should be even easier.

I though I was using the word much the way you were  .     I believe there are quite a few believers who do this sort of thing on a regular basis from many different churches/denominations.   I just don't understand the negative comments on why some pastors would frown on such, or about Church gatherings as the term has been used.    Mine certainly does not as I suspect most wouldn't.   If one does, then it might be time to find a new church I should think.

    Still not following you guys and what your trying to say?

Grace and Peace!

[Layman Bairn]

I just don't understand the negative comments on why some pastors would frown on such, or about Church gatherings as the term has been used.

 :-\   Still not following you guys and what your trying to say?

Grace and Peace!

Tim, Grace and Peace to you also

If I am included in "you guys" and if you're refering to me as having made the negative comments about pastors, I was not suggesting that pastors in general would discourage all the members sharing in a home meeting. I was suggesting that pastors would not embrace the open sharing of the members in the general church meetings. Modern church meetings have evolved into a "stage and audience" affair. If you read and re-read 1cor.:14 it seems clear that Paul took for granted that a church meeting was a matter of all sharing ("all may prophesy"). The same spirit works and lives in us all. Seminary counts for very little. I'm sure when a Paul or a Barnabus came to town those early christians were more than eager to sit and listen, but the general on going meetings seemed to be a mutual sharing of psalms, doctrines, tounges, revelations, etc.. These meetings, I'm sure, were to include the ministry of teachers and the keeping of order by the leading brothers, but were never to be the kind of audience and celebrity situation we now have. I was saying in my reply to Felix that to ask a pastor to change the format of their meetings to include the free and open sharing of all the members, to place equal value on the spiritual insights and contributions of all in attendence and not just the bible school graduate, would meet with instant disapproval.

There is a richness and a completeness to be had in a meeting where each one contributes. If we are in say, Eph:4 and I hear a teacher for 15 or twenty minutes and then hear 20 or so brothers and sisters bring their experiences and insights regarding the matter at hand... oh my! what a full and satisfying handling of ephesians 4 ! If someone stands and goes too long or off the mark for that meeting, then one in leadership can gently set things on track. This is my experience, it's what I read in the Word.

Most pastors at one time or another have spoken about "body Ministry" or some similar term, and then go on to urge the congregation to pray and see if God would have them vacuum the sanctuary, work in the nursery, work on the landscaping,etc.. The sharing of spiritual matters however is reserved for the so-called clergy.


Eph 4:4-6
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(KJV)

Eph 4:11-12
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(KJV)

Eph 4:16
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (KJV)

Agape
Bairn

[2nd Timothy]

I just don't understand the negative comments on why some pastors would frown on such, or about Church gatherings as the term has been used.

    Still not following you guys and what your trying to say?

Grace and Peace!

Tim, Grace and Peace to you also

If I am included in "you guys" and if you're refering to me as having made the negative comments about pastors, I was not suggesting that pastors in general would discourage all the members sharing in a home meeting. I was suggesting that pastors would not embrace the open sharing of the members in the general church meetings. Modern church meetings have evolved into a "stage and audience" affair. If you read and re-read 1cor.:14 it seems clear that Paul took for granted that a church meeting was a matter of all sharing ("all may prophesy"). The same spirit works and lives in us all. Seminary counts for very little. I'm sure when a Paul or a Barnabus came to town those early christians were more than eager to sit and listen, but the general on going meetings seemed to be a mutual sharing of psalms, doctrines, tounges, revelations, etc.. These meetings, I'm sure, were to include the ministry of teachers and the keeping of order by the leading brothers, but were never to be the kind of audience and celebrity situation we now have. I was saying in my reply to Felix that to ask a pastor to change the format of their meetings to include the free and open sharing of all the members, to place equal value on the spiritual insights and contributions of all in attendence and not just the bible school graduate, would meet with instant disapproval.

There is a richness and a completeness to be had in a meeting where each one contributes. If we are in say, Eph:4 and I hear a teacher for 15 or twenty minutes and then hear 20 or so brothers and sisters bring their experiences and insights regarding the matter at hand... oh my! what a full and satisfying handling of ephesians 4 ! If someone stands and goes too long or off the mark for that meeting, then one in leadership can gently set things on track. This is my experience, it's what I read in the Word.

Most pastors at one time or another have spoken about "body Ministry" or some similar term, and then go on to urge the congregation to pray and see if God would have them vacuum the sanctuary, work in the nursery, work on the landscaping,etc.. The sharing of spiritual matters however is reserved for the so-called clergy.


Eph 4:4-6
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(KJV)

Eph 4:11-12
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(KJV)

Eph 4:16
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (KJV)

Agape
Bairn

I see, that makes better sense...thanks for clarifying.   Allow me to chew on that a bit before I comment further.

Grace and Peace!

[felix102]

Felix,

You'd make a great monastic  

I admire your commitment to a constant focusing of our lives on God through fellowship. I just don't know how possible it is for those of us with young families and all the commitments that come with it.

monastic??? Dont know what u mean by that.

Thanks for your admiration but it is not for me; this is what God wants for His children...and this is what Satan doesnt want. That's why we should be strong for this.

I see your problem. I think its ok. You know, the body does not just contribute to spiritual needs but also physical. Brothers and Sisters united as one body dont just have gift and skills in different areas for spiritual needs but physical as well. I am sure if you pray about it and meet with the brothers and sisters...your children will become godly children, you will be able to meet with the body, and you will have extra time to do things for yourself. Possibly more time.

When we're in the body each member provides for the other member's need. There may be a sister or bro who can take care of your kids, or maybe your kids can go with you to wherever you are meeting the body. In any case...your children will be edified and you will be edified. And if you sacrifice time for the Lord, He will bless you with more. What you sow you will reap...and by the grace and love of God may your harvest be abundant.

[felix102]

so is that body functioning in one accord? If it is not then surely it needs to be! As our body parts must all work together to walk so must the local churches.

Hmmm.  The body consists of many different parts, all having different functions however.   Yes the toes the fingers the feet the arms the eyes etc.   If each of these are being used for the better good of the body of Christ, then they would be functioning in one accord.   The arm cannot do the job of the feet carrying the body from place to place, just as the foot cannot do the job of the arm which reaches out letting the hand do its job.   Sounds kind of silly I guess, but it does add to the mental image me thinks.  

I am reminded of ....

Mar 9:38  And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39  But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40  For he that is not against us is on our part.
Mar 9:41  For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.


Was this individual operating in one accord with Jesus group?  According to Jesus he was.   Now I realize the body was still being built at this point, but I think it still applies here.   Any denomination not against Christ in on His part.   At least thats how I see it.

Grace and Peace!

hey bro,

That verse doesnt apply to that. Just like they're not going to stop that man from using the name of Jesus...I am not going to stop another denomination from preaching the gospel of Christ. However they may not be walking in one accord.

The definition of accord is to be consistent or in harmony.

In contrast the definition of discord is
a : lack of agreement or harmony (as between persons, things, or ideas) b : active quarreling or conflict resulting from discord among persons or factions


So what am I saying against the protestant and catholic churches? I am not here to point out what is wrong or what is right. These are things of reasonings and doctrines. These have nothing to do with God. Not trying to contend for right and wrong doctrine. Instead, contending for unity. The churches are not walking in one accord. There is division among them.

You may or may not believe this. If we want to get anywhere in both cases -whether you believe or not- you should pray for the desire of God and His will. Forsake what you know in your head, give these things to God and have faith that you will receive what you ask for in prayer. Ask whether these things are true, ask whether they are God's desire, and tell God that HIs will be done.

[Allinall]

Felix,

Great thread Brother!  You have an excellent zeal for God and His Word as well as your brothers and sisters in Him.  Keep it up!

But I must disagree in part.  The reason we have differing denominations is differing doctrinal opinions.  I understand that we are to be of "like mind" but understand, Paul was speaking of being likeminded in Christ, His Gospel of salvation, and His purpose for having us here.  The believers in his day disagreed over certain scriptural "mysteries."  Paul even coined that term!  Why?  Because we "know in part, and we prophesy in part."  We aren't all "perfect."  We don't have all the understanding.  We want it.  We want each of us to have it and to share it together and with others.  But in wanting this, we miss the point.

You seem to be going through exactly what I went through over the past 10 years of my Christian walk.  I went to Bible College, served in my church, read my Bible, prayed, witnessed, didn't smoke, drink or chew or go with girls that do.  Yet through it all I kept feeling that something was missing.  And ya know what?  There was!  What was missing?  The right question is, "Who was missing?"

We get so caught up in how people aren't doing things the way we are.  Ya know what felix my brother?  That's exactly what you're doing.  You're even teaching us to follow what you do as a solution to this problem.  People aren't seeing it your way (case in point).  Some are and are helping out.  Some will take what you suggest and run with it to their benefit.  Others won't.  We begin to measure our spiritual stature by our spiritual output, rather than God's holy standard.  Then, we measure others, not by God's standard, but by ours.  And through it all, we set our sights on self, not on Him.  The problem?  We all do it.  The solution?  STOP IT!!![/u][/i]  

The "Who" I found missing was the very God I was serving.  When I figured that out, I stopped seeing so much of the disunity, and started seeing believers that needed strengthening.  I stopped seeing doctrinal perfection, and saw my need to learn from God about Himself.  I stopped seeing "I'm right and you're wrong!" and started seeing room for both to grow in their knowledge of our infinite God.  I stopped seeing Baptists, Presbyterians and what not, and began seeing "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" like the Baptists, and Methodists, and Presbyterians that claim Him by faith in His written word.  I stopped seeing my work in the body of Christ and began seeing God's working through my obedience within His body, His offspring, His assembly.  His work.  Not mine.  For me?  To see things this way any longer casts a shadow on God's success at performing the work that He alone can do.

Wonderful thoughts.  Wonderful zeal brother.  Just watch that you don't start pointing fingers when you should be reaching out a helping hand.  

"There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift." - Ephesians 4:4-7

 

[ollie]

So what is to be done?

Here is the first thing you should do.

PRAY

O Father,
I want to worship you in spirit and in truth. I know nothing about you but I want to experience you right now as reality. I purify my heart. Reveal yourself to me!


Now this is something I strongly urge you to do!!!!

Schedule a home meeting. Call some brothers and invite them over to your home one night. Prepare a dinner. Whatever you can provide for. At least two brothers plus your family. Or have some potluck and invite more people over.

Before eating, have everyone call on the name of the Lord. Proclaim together in unison "Jesus Christ is Lord!" Do that three times together. Saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth. The second time saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth and heart. The third time saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth, heart and spirit. As you are reading this do this right now.  

Then pray. Pray for anything. Such as "Lord Jesus, we turn away from everything in this world right now. We consecrate this time only to you. May we not leave this place the same; we want to be changed! We want to gain more of you!" But don't just have one person pray one prayer. Let there be many more prayers. Dont worry, there wont be disorder. Encourage brothers moved by their hearts to pray.

This is the most important part. After eating open hymnals, open the bible, and share things with each other. Be completely open to each other. The best way to start is probably with the bible. Just read some scripture together and have everyone share what they got from it. Share some revelation that God gave you during the week. Share your burdens. Ask questions. Sing hymns and songs. Get out musical instruments. Another good way to start is just to print out some bible study topics from this forum and go over that.

When leaving have another group prayer.

Coordinate a home meeting like this for each weekday. Each day being a different brothers' or sisters'. Whoever can and whoever is willing.  

Acts 2:46
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart

Lord Jesus,
Strengthen your church right now! May nothing stand in the way. Unite us together. Make us function healthly.


Saints, this will make a big difference. If you are a believer and you haven't been baptized, you should do it soon.

The Lord has given His requirements for unity, the way, the truth, the life  for strength in this unity. It seems to be man that won't abide them.

[JudgeNot]

The Lord has given His requirements for unity, the way, the truth, the life  for strength in this unity. It seems to be man that won't abide them.

Yep.
What Ollie said.  I wish I'd said that.  
We're the problem.
Of course, as Christians we're supposed know that.  

"If it makes you feel guilty then don't do it."
JN

[peh]

I was suggesting that pastors would not embrace the open sharing of the members in the general church meetings. Modern church meetings have evolved into a "stage and audience" affair. If you read and re-read 1cor.:14 it seems clear that Paul took for granted that a church meeting was a matter of all sharing ("all may prophesy").... the general on going meetings seemed to be a mutual sharing of psalms, doctrines, tounges, revelations, etc.. These meetings...were never to be the kind of audience and celebrity situation we now have. I was saying in my reply to Felix that to ask a pastor to change the format of their meetings to include the free and open sharing of all the members, to place equal value on the spiritual insights and contributions of all in attendence and not just the bible school graduate, would meet with instant disapproval.

There is a richness and a completeness to be had in a meeting where each one contributes. If we are in say, Eph:4 and I hear a teacher for 15 or twenty minutes and then hear 20 or so brothers and sisters bring their experiences and insights regarding the matter at hand... oh my! what a full and satisfying handling of ephesians 4 ! If someone stands and goes too long or off the mark for that meeting, then one in leadership can gently set things on track. This is my experience, it's what I read in the Word.

The sharing of spiritual matters however is reserved for the so-called clergy.

Couldn't have said it better myself, so I won't .  Will just add that if you asked pastors why not, they'd probably give a variety of answers but all would probably boil down to, "I wouldn't be in control".  If forced to be honest, some might even have to say, "I wouldn't be the star".

The way the church in general Christianity is run today, a very small body of folk run everything, then complain because they don't have any "helpers" in the nursery, etc.  

Personally speaking, first pray about it and then if the answer seems to be to have home meetings anyway, invite a few to your home, make it available for, say, a Bible study, and let everyone have a say in the discussion.  It's your home, you have the authority to quiet any disagreement or overly enthusiastic proponents of one or the other pet doctrines.  There is no law that says in order to head a ministry of whatever size, you must have been ordained or otherwise recognized as a Christian "leader".  

If your pastor objects, invite him to sit in, but don't let him take over.  And don't think you must or you're not "under authority".   I know pastors like to throw that around, as well as some other Christians who basically may just be the type that doesn't like to "make waves".

It seems the church in general could use a little shaking up, maybe you are one who could continue the biblical model.  And be advised that as far as the type of church felix102 is describing, there are many others that have as many if not more fellowship type of gatherings, small and large.  

It is not impossible, regardless of your home situation, to make time for fellowship.  It is just something that isn't planned for much and so seems inconvenient, and especially would to those who have busied themselves with multiple jobs, cars, bills, etc etc etc.   I have been part of such gatherings and had them at my own home as well, and I was a single mom raising two children, going to school and working a full-time and a part-time job.   It wasn't easy, but it was enjoyable, and I learned a very great deal at the same time.

[Bronzesnake]

peh quote.

Couldn't have said it better myself, so I won't .  Will just add that if you asked pastors why not, they'd probably give a variety of answers but all would probably boil down to, "I wouldn't be in control".  If forced to be honest, some might even have to say, "I wouldn't be the star".

The way the church in general Christianity is run today, a very small body of folk run everything, then complain because they don't have any "helpers" in the nursery, etc.  

Personally speaking, first pray about it and then if the answer seems to be to have home meetings anyway, invite a few to your home, make it available for, say, a Bible study, and let everyone have a say in the discussion.  It's your home, you have the authority to quiet any disagreement or overly enthusiastic proponents of one or the other pet doctrines.  There is no law that says in order to head a ministry of whatever size, you must have been ordained or otherwise recognized as a Christian "leader".  

If your pastor objects, invite him to sit in, but don't let him take over.  And don't think you must or you're not "under authority".  I know pastors like to throw that around, as well as some other Christians who basically may just be the type that doesn't like to "make waves".

 First of all, when Paul was preaching, most every Jew was well schooled in the scriptures, which made it reasonable for that type of meeting to take place. If you read Luke 4:16-21 you can get an idea of what was going on in the synagogue at that time. It wasn't the kind of free for all, which you think it was. There was a "minister" the minister handed Jesus (a Rabbi) the book of the prophet Esaias to read from. When Jesus was done reading, He closed the book, gave it back and sat down. This is exactly what happens in many Churches today.

 There has to be a trained pastor in charge in order to "teach"
If you want to contribute, then go to a Bible study. You can't expect a Church to function with a room full of uninformed, untrained "ministers".

 You make interesting comments peh, such as "all would probably boil down to, "I wouldn't be in control".  If forced to be honest, some might even have to say, "I wouldn't be the star". These types of comments are very disturbing to me. It shows a general disdain for Church authority and Pastoral knowledge and leadership.

 It's interesting to note your following remarks...

"The way the church in general Christianity is run today, a very small body of folk run everything, then complain because they don't have any "helpers" in the nursery, etc"

 Here again, you show a total disrespect for Church authority, but in your next statement, you don't mind putting yourself in the position of psudo-church authority.

 Personally speaking, first pray about it and then if the answer seems to be to have home meetings anyway, invite a few to your home, make it available for, say, a Bible study, and let everyone have a say in the discussion.  It's your home, you have the authority to quiet any disagreement or overly enthusiastic proponents of one or the other pet doctrines.

Your next remark really sums it all up...

 There is no law that says in order to head a ministry of whatever size, you must have been ordained or otherwise recognized as a Christian "leader".

 In other words, you don't think a fully trained and qualified pastor should be in the position of a Church leader, rather, an unqualified, untrained, self taught lay pastor can do a far superior job!  


 Yours are not the word or sentiments of a humble Christian person my friend.

[Layman Bairn]

Whoa! Bronze man! Bad day?

Bronze wrote:
 
“It wasn't the kind of free for all, which you think it was. There was a "minister" the minister handed Jesus (a Rabbi) the book of the prophet Esaias to read from. When Jesus was done reading, He closed the book, gave it back and sat down. This is exactly what happens in many Churches today.”


Jesus conducted Himself according to the practices of the synagogues when He was there. And you apparently are unaware that, then and now, it is the right and privilege of every Jewish male both to read and comment upon the scriptures in the meetings, beginning at 12 or 13 years old.

Bronze wrote:

"First of all, when Paul was preaching, most every Jew was well schooled in the scriptures, which made it reasonable for that type of meeting to take place"

First of all, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles. He preached rarely to Jews. His teachings on the conducting of meetings overwhelmingly describe psalms, doctrines, tongues, revelations, prophesying, being shared by all in attendance. Here is a little key to consider:

1 Cor 14:30-31
30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
(KJV)

Paul is talking to unschooled (though Paul suerly taught them much) Greek gentiles… “If anything be revealed”.   What you are missing is that the Holy Spirit was active and vital in these meetings. It is all about the building up of one another “by that which every joint supplieth” I think I can speak for peh, when I say I have not the least disdain for leadership, or Church government or “ordained” teachers. Look what we all gained by The Lord ordaining the un-schooled fishermen and Galileans who wrote a good part of our New Testament. If you have sat in a church for a year or more and are not “schooled” in the scriptures and things of God, why are you still there?

This is the amazing statement:

Bronze wrote:

“There has to be a trained pastor in charge in order to "teach"
If you want to contribute, then go to a Bible study. You can't expect a Church to function with a room full of uninformed, untrained "ministers

Again, what constitutes them uninformed and untrained?  Bad teachers?

Where in the Bible are “Church meeting” and ”Bible study” made distinct?

What I do have disdain for is the clergy-laity system, The clergy class.

If you do an extensive study of the word nicolaitan you will see what it is, about nicolaitans, that the Lord says He hates. The often taught rubbish about the nicolaitans is that they were an isolated, off the wall cult started by Nicholas (of acts fame). A great many scholars agree that “nicolaitanism” is just what the name implies: “nico” conquerer “laitan” the people ie. The laity...Conquerers of the laity (often applied to the Catholic priesthood but, think about it)


1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV)


I spent years in professional entertainment, I recognize the dynamics of entertainment in our westernized church culture…the stage, the audience, the celebrity and the performance.
I quote from my earlier post:

There is a richness and a completeness to be had in a meeting where each one contributes. If we are in say, Eph:4 and I hear a teacher for 15 or twenty minutes and then hear 20 or so brothers and sisters bring their experiences and insights regarding the matter at hand... oh my! what a full and satisfying handling of ephesians 4 ! If someone stands and goes too long or off the mark for that meeting, then one in leadership can gently set things on track. This is my experience, it's what I read in the Word.

I am not negating leadership. I am questioning the towers we have built for them in the spiritual house.  I am condemning the silencing of the lively stones, the Holy Priesthood.


1 Pet 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (KJV)



Bairn