Satanic Holy Days

[BigD]

I refuse to debate an article written by someone else, other then the one who originally wrote it.  I have not read all of the ariticle and don't intend to read the rest, as I reject it in total. Should you want to discuss viewpoints that I express and disagree with, I will be more then happy to discuss them. Lets just keep it to one or two subjects at a time in order to keep each posting from being to lengthly.

From reading your authors views, my conclusion is that you and he have a misconception about dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism is not a religion or a denomination. It is just a manner in which one studies the Bible. Not all dispensationalists believe, teach or preach the same things.

The author seem to paint all dispensationalists with one brush. In fact, I would venture to say that even you are a dispensationalists.

If you no longer sacrifice animals to cover your sins, you are a dispensationalists. If you do not adhere to the Sabbath Day Laws of the Old Testament, then you are a dispensationalists. If you do not believe that circumcision is required today, then you are a dispensationalist.

As a dispensationalist, I believe that the attributes of God have NEVER changed. He is the same today as He was yesterday, and will be the same tomarrow. However, I do believe that God has dealt differently with mankind throughout human history.

Personally, I do not see the Chruch today as spiritual Israel. God gave to Moses His instructions in righteousness for the nation of Israel, and promised a kingdom here upon the earth if they would keep the Civil, Moral and Ceremonials of Moses, by doing the deeDs/works of the Law BY FAITH. However Israel rejected their promised King and His Kingdom. Therefore, God set the nation of Israel aside (temporarily) and raised up Saul/Paul to usher in the dispensation of Grace.

God gave to the Apostle Paul; His instructions in righteous for the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction. Believers today are not promised an earthly kingdom but a heavenly home. See 2Cor 5:1 and Philippians 3:20.

The Chruch today, the Body of Christ, IS NOT spiritual Israel. Isreal has an earthly kingdom to look forward to, and I, as a member of the Body of Christ, have a heavenly home to look forward to.

Where do you plan to spend eternity?

Dispensationalism has to do with dispensing; from which we get or word "dispensary." It is derived from the Greek work that has to do with "house laws" and "stewardship."

In Biblical time a wealthy man might have many servants. He would appoint one servant as the head servant, and that servant was required to carry out the orders (house laws) of his master. He was the "stewart" to carry out his masters "house laws."

Back when animal sacrifices were required for the atonement for sin, they were the "house laws" of that time. Today, those animal sacrifices are not longer required. Therefore, if you do not follow those "house laws" you are a good servant by following those old "house laws". You are following the new orders of the Master,and that makes you a dispensationalist. The same holds true for circumcision and the Sabbath Day travel Laws.

I have pointed this out to others who previously claimed that they were not dispensationalist. When I pointed out the above, now they say that they are now "dispensationalists of a sort."

Are you a dispensationalist, or a dispensationalist of a sort?

In Ephesians 2 alone, Paul shows that he was a dispensationalist, and mentions 3 different dispensations.

In verses 11,12 he speaks of TIMES PAST. In verse 13 he speaks of BUT NOW. In verse 7 the speaks of THE AGES TO COME.

Can you see the changes of "house laws" there, or are they all the same?

Paul tells us in Galatians 1:11,12 "But I certify you brethern that the gospel which was preached of me is not ater man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Paul tells the believer in 1Cor11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I follow Christ.

Paul preached "the gospel of the grace of God" which was "the mystery" which was keep secret "since the world began." "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of me, as it is NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Eph 3:5)

Jesus told His disciples to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" to the Jews only. Jesus Himself said "I am not sent,but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24) What did he preach? "The gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 4:23).

It appears to me that Jesus and the 12 preached a different message to their listeners then what Paul preached. If they preached the same thing, then Paul is a liar.

God used Moses to give His instruction in righteousness to the children of Israel through the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws, commonly know as "the Laws of Moses."

God used Paul to give His instructions in righteous (the gospel of the grace of God) to members of "the Body of Christ"

I follow the teachings of Paul (which ARE FROM CHRIST) for my instructions in righteousness. If you think that I or other dispensationalist "throw out/disregard" the rest of the Bible, then you are badly mistaken and know nothing of dispensatism.

All those that I know that study the Bible from a dispensational viewpoint agree with the Apostle Paul when he writes in Romans 14:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." WE THROW OUT/DISREGARD NO PART OF THE BIBLE.

IMHO, you do not distinguish the difference between "Prophesy", which Jesus came to fulfill, and "The Mystery" which was revealed to the Apostle Paul, but "kept secret since the world began.

I will post it in my next response.

God Bless.  
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

In his book "Things That Differ" Pastor Stam list 14 basic things between PROPHECY (P) AND THE MYSTERY (M).

1. (P) Concerns a kingdom; a political organization (Dan. 2:44, Matt. 6:10).

(M) Concerns a body; a living organism (I Cor. 12:12,27, Eph. 4:12-16).

2. (P) The kingdom to be established on earth (Jer. 23:5, Matt. 6:10).

(M) The body given a position in heaven (Eph. 1:3, 2:5-6, Col 3:1-3).

3. (P) Christ to be its King (Jer. 23:5, Isa.9:6,7).

(M) Christ its living Head (Eph. 1:19-23,Col. 1:18).

4. (P) The kingdom prophesied "since the world began" (Luke 1:68-70, Acts3:21).

(M) The body chosen in Christ before the world began, but "kept secret sincethe world began" (Rom. 16:25, Eph.1:4-11, 3:5-9).

5. (P) Israel to be given supremacy over the nations (Isa. 60:10-12, 61:6).

(M) Jew and Gentile placed on the same level before God (Rom. 10:12, 11:32,Eph. 2:16,17).

6. (P) The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel’s instrumentality (Gen.22:17,18, Zech. 8:13).

(M) The Gentiles blessed through Israel’s obstinacy (Acts 13:44-46,Rom. 11:28-32).

7. (P) The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel’s rise (Isa. 60:1-3, Zech. 8:22,23).

(M) The Gentiles blessed throughIsrael’s fall (Acts 28:27,28, Rom.11:11, 12, 15).

8. (P) Prophecy mainly concerns nations as such (Isa. 2:4, Ezek. 37:21, 22).

(M) The mystery concerns individuals (Rom. 10:12, 13, II Cor. 5:14-17).

9. (P) Prophecy concerns blessings, both material and spiritual, on earth (Isa.2:3, 4, 11:1-9, etc.).

(M)The mystery concerns "all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies" (Eph.1:3, Col. 3:1-3).

10. (P) Prophecy concerns Christ’s coming to the earth (Isa. 59:20, Zech. 14:4).

(M)The mystery explains Christ’s present absence from the earth (Eph. 1:20-23, Col. 3:1-3).

11. (P) In prophecy salvation by grace through faith alone is not contemplated.

(M) Salvation by faith alone lies at the very heart of the mystery (Rom. 3:21-26, 4:5, Eph.2:8,9).

12, (P)The proclamation of the prophetic program committed particularly to the twelve (Matt. 10:5-7, Acts 1:6-8, 3:19-26).

(M) The proclamation of the mystery committed particularly to Paul (Eph.3:1-3, 8-9, Col. 1:24-27).

13 (P) The prophetic program revealed through many of God’s servants (Luke 1:70, II Pet. 1:21).

(M) The mystery revealed through one man; Paul (Gal. 1:1, 11, 12, 2:2, 7, 9,Eph. 3:2,3).

14. (P) Old testament writers frequently did not understand the prophecies made known through them (Dan. 12:8-10, IPeter 1:10-12).

(M) Paul both understood and longed that others might understand the mystery revealed through him. (Eph.1:15-23, 3:14-21, Col. 1:9 -10, 2:1-3).

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Chesed]

BigD -

Before I respond to your post, I want you to know that even though I disagree with you, I still consider you a brother in Messiah (and a fellow member of Israel   ).

I refuse to debate and an article written by someone else, other then the one who originally wrote it.  I have not read all of the ariticle and don't intend to read the rest, as I reject it in total.

Hey... that's not fair! I had to read your postings of commentaries! C'mon...  

The author of the article I posted is the Pastor of my congregation, if you would like to respond I could send it to him for you.

Where do you plan to spend eternity?

By the shed blood of Messiah, I will be with the Lord.

Are you a dispensationalist, or a dispensationalist of a sort?

I am not a dispensationalist at all.

If you no longer sacrifice animals to cover your sins, you are a dispensationalists.

Animal sacrifice never had the power to atone for sin (Hebrews 10:4-5). They only served as a reminder for sin (Hebrews 10:3).

Even in the OT, it says that only God is the one, not sacrifices, that takes away sin:

Isaiah 43
22 "Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel. 23 "You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense. 24 "You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities. 25 "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.

We know from reading about Ezekiel's Temple in Ezekiel, that even the Messiah and Levitical Priests will perform animal sacrifices in that future Temple.

If you do not adhere to the Sabbath Day Laws of the Old Testament, then you are a dispensationalists. If you do not believe that circumcision is required today, then you are a dispensationalist.

I believe that Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law (Matt. 5:17) and He didn't abolish the Law by "fulfilling" it. So the other Laws in the Law of Moses are still applicable, but because there is no Temple in Jerusalem and we do not live in the land of Israel, we are not able to keep them all. But we keep those we are able to keep here in the US. Our son is circumcised. We keep the Sabbath on the 7th day and the Biblical Festivals. We eat only Biblically clean food... etc. And we do so with Messiah's example as our guide.

Jesus told His disciples to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" to the Jews only. Jesus Himself said "I am not sent,but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24) What did he preach? "The gospel of the kingdom" (Matthew 4:23).

It appears to me that Jesus and the 12 preached a different message to their listeners then what Paul preached. If they preached the same thing, then Paul is a liar.

If Paul is at odds with Jesus, then I'm going to go with Jesus' message. But it seems to me that Jesus and Paul were preaching the same message, and Paul is not a liar:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Matt 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations (Hebrew: goyim = gentiles), baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,  teaching them to observe all that I commanded you."

The mystery of the Gospel is the fact that the gentiles are included in the nation of Israel, and are also recipients of the Promises given to Israel. This is the context of Eph. 2 & 3.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints (Israel of God) and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit (Eph. 2:19-22).

So gentiles are part of God's household, Israel, and we share the same "house laws," the Torah (Law), that God gave to Israel as an act of grace. Just like the Law I give to my children to follow, I give to them out of grace and my concern for them to be well. I would have the same laws for all of my children.

My pastor have a perfect analogy of this in his own household. He and his wife have 2 natural born children and 2 adopted children. Does he have special laws for his natural born children while he tells his adopted children to do whatever they want? No. He has the same house laws for all of his children.

Here is a thread where I posted from a book, "The Mystery of the Gospel" by Daniel Lancaster. He illustrates that the Mystery of the Gospel is the inclusion of the gentiles into Israel: http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=5004

Well, I think this post is long enough for now. There is still more I'd like to say, but I'll save it until later.

I would still like you to answer this question I had from my previous post:

If all the covenants are made with ONLY Israel, then what covenant are you a part of?

Take care,
Chesed

[nChrist]

Chesed,

Your teaching is false. It denies the purpose and meaning of the Cross. Jesus Christ did not die on the Cross for us in vain. The GOOD NEWS is Jesus Christ, not Moses.

This thread has been moved to the debate section where it belonged in the first place.

Moderator

[nChrist]

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« on: April 23, 2004, 05:03:39 AM »      

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[ollie]

Hi there Ollie -

In answer to my previous post, you quoted Luke 16:16. I believe that you are misunderstanding this verse. It is wrong to interpret this verse as saying the Law and the Prophets are abolished because of John the immerser. Consider the very following verse: Lu 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to become void." So verse 16 certainly doesn't mean that the Law and the Prophets were done with, as we can see by the following verse.

Then you continued by quoting:

Romans 3:20.  "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Yes, no one is justified by any law keeping, only by the blood of Jesus. I think we agree there.

21.  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

So what is this righteousness of God without the works of the Law to which the Law and the Prophets testify? If you are trying to say that this verse means that the Law is done away with, then how is this righteousness witnessed by the Law and the Prophets? Where in the Law and the Prophets does it say that the commandments therein were only for a time, until the Messiah came and "finished" them? All throughout the Law and the Prophets it talks about the commandments being an Eternal Covenant (you can do a word search on the word "eternal" in the OT, I will spare you from having to read such a long post   )

And obviously, what Paul is saying here in Romans 3 is not at odds with the Law because he later says: "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (verse 3:31).

I think what Paul is dealing with here and also in Galatians is the issue of circumcising Gentile believers in Messiah, which is the same as becoming a Jew. We know that some were trying to persuade the Gentiles to become Jews by being ritually circumcised, joining "the circumcision group" (see Ro. 15:8, Gal. 2:12, Eph. 2:11) and to obey all the Law (Acts 15, all the Law included Rabbinic Law as well.) Paul is establishing the fact that Gentiles are saved by faith in Messiah, not by becoming ritually circumcised (Jewish). There is nothing in all the Law and Prophets that calls for Gentiles to become Jews in order to be acceptable to God. God says the same Law He gave to Israel also applies to the Gentiles who identify with Israel (Ex 12:49).

Take care -
Chesed

In answer to my previous post, you quoted Luke 16:16. I believe that you are misunderstanding this verse. It is wrong to interpret this verse as saying the Law and the Prophets are abolished because of John the immerser.

I did not say that. The verse says what I said. "The law and the prophets were until John". The law and the prophets were not abolished because of John, but were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The law was the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and a just a shadow of things to come through HIm. The true, if you will. See Hebrews.

Consider the very following verse: Lu 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to become void." So verse 16 certainly doesn't mean that the Law and the Prophets were done with, as we can see by the following verse.

The law did not pass away but was made complete and fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

ollie

[tb]

as it says in 2nd timothy 3 14-4 5
But you continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, recalling the people from whom you learned it; and recalling too how from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which can give you wisdom that leads to deliverance through trusting in Jesus the Messiah. All Scripture is G-d breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living; thus anyone who belongs to G-d may be fully equiped for every good work. 4 I solemnly charge you befor G-d and Jesus the Messiah, who will judge the livivng and the dead when he appears and establishes his Kingdom (therefor since death is not aloud in heaven his kingdom must be here): proclaim the Word ! Be on hand with it whether the time seems right or not. Convict, censure and exhort with unfailing patients and with teaching. For the time is coming when people will not have patience for sound teaching, but will cater to their passions and gather themselves teachers who say whatever their ears itch to hear. Yes they will stop listening to the truth, but will turn aside and follow myths. So I see know reason for us not to follow the Word of G-d becuse if our Messiah died for our sins we should keep from commiting them and we have an excellent book (Torah) that tells us how and when and what we should do.

[tb]

sorry to have to say it this way but mikel rood has twice predictad the return of the Messiah and though he may have some good insight and message you do need to watch what he says. Lord Bless

[nChrist]

Matthew 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Romans 10:1  Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Romans 10:2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Romans 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10:5  For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Romans 10:6  But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Romans 10:7  Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Romans 10:8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[BigD]

Chesed:
I have responded to a portion of Tim Hegg's article. As you will see, I do not have a problem refuting what he has written and that it take a considerable amount of time and space to respond to it.

Being I reject out right what he writes, I will waste no further time in responding to it. If you or he wish to respond to what I have written, I will be more then happy to reply. However, If you wish to respond, I want you or him to refute, from Scripture what I have written.

I do not take as gospel what other dispensationalists have written because I do not agree with them all. Let the Bible be the foundation of all that is written.

Tim Hegg wrote:
Erroneous Hermeneutics
Such beliefs today are, in part, the result of various methods of interpreting the Bible. One such method is called “dispensationalism.” The core of this hermeneutic is the axiom that God required different standards of obedience in different eras or dispensations. What pleased Him in one era may be different in another era. Actually, this same perspective is found quite early in the Church’s history. For example, Justin Martyr (110-165 CE), in his Dialogue with Trypho 2,  uses this argument. He suggests that since people pleased God without observing the Sabbath before God gave the Torah, it is logical to presume that people could do so in a later era, after Messiah’s advent. This remains a pillar of dispensational theology.

BigD responds:
The above, I consider a complete FALSEHOOD. If one considers the above to be "true", then that one must also believe that all denominational churches teach and preach the same doctrine. Dispensationalism is not a denomination, neither is it a doctrine. It is a manner in which one studies the scriptures. All dispensationalists do not teach and preach the same thing.

As a dispensationalist, I do not believe "that God required different standards of obedience in different eras or dispensations." I know of no dispensationalists that do. As a dispensationalist I do believe that salvation/justification has ALWAYS been by FAITH. FAITH in believing and/or doing what God required at that point in time of human history.

Adam and Eve were not justified by offering a sacrifice, building an ark, counting the stars, doing the deeds/works of the Law by faith, or placing their faith and trust in the cross work of Christ for their salvation/justification. After they disobeyed God by eating from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, God gave them a conscience to know good from evil.

False Hermeneutics is reading and applying future revelation into past events. That is like reading the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden, or the battles of WWI into the battles of WWII.

I have never heard or read that the beliefs of Justin Martyr are "a pillar of dispensational theology."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

Tim Hegg goes on:
In the dispensational scheme of things one’s first duty when studying the Scriptures is to discern between what was given to God’s people in the current era. In essence, significant parts of the Scriptures are therefore rendered unessential. It is upon this basis that the neglect of the Sabbath, festivals and food laws, for example, can occur without any twinge of conscience. To dispensationalists, these rules were for another era – they don’t apply to us.

While though the motive of those who developed this hermeneutic was to make the Scriptures relevant, just the opposite occurred. Once a person comes to believe that parts of the Scripture are no longer directly applicable to his life, he has subtly undermined the authority of God’s divine Word. When one is comfortable with viewing one part of Scripture as non-applicable, it is inevitable and logical that they might just as easily set aside other Scriptures that seem archaic or irrelevant.

BigD responds:
2Timothy2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.[/b]"

The above, in my humble opinion, strongly indicates that there are divisions in the Bible. Did the atributes of God change over the ages? NO, they are the same today as they were yesterday, and will still be the same tomarrow. However, has God dealt differently with mankind throughout the ages? Yes.

I have never read were Adam and Eve, by faith, were saved/justified by offering a sacrifice to God. I have never read were Able, by faith, had to believe God and build an ark in order to be saved/justified. I have never read where Noah had to, by faith, believe God and count the stars in heaven to be saved/justified. I have never read where Abram/Abraham, by faith, had to do the deeds/works of the Laws of Moses, to be saved/justified. I have never read where the children of Israel, in the Old Testament, Gospels and first part of Acts, had to, by faith, place their faith and trust in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation/justification. Also, I have never read were that members of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today, has to any of those things, by faith, mentioned prior setting aside of the nation of Israel, after the stoning of Stephen and the raising up of Saul/Paul.
------------------------------------------
Tim Hegg continues:
A bi-product of such dispensational theology is the erroneous pillar which marks separation and distinction between Israel and the Church. Fuller writes:

. . . the basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity.3

BigD responds:
As I have stated previoulsy, dispensationalsim is not a denomination or doctrine. It is by "rightly dividing the word of thuth"  that leads one to know that there is a marked distinction between Israel and the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Prior to God setting the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11, there were only Gentliles. However, they disobeyed God and God had set them aside. In Genesis 12 we find that God raised up Abram, a Gentile, and from his desendence, God made a "people unto Himself",  which were the children of Israel. At the time God raised up Abram, He also made and undonditional covenant with Abram, that all the world would be blessed through his seed.

God's later added a condition to that covenant in that Abram, and all those males that followed him, had to be circumcised or be "cut off from his people" (see Gen 17:9-14.) That circumcision made a distinction between a Jew and Gentile. That distinction was made by God. From that time forward; to the setting aside of the nation of Israel, for a male Gentile to serve the true and living God, one had to become a Jew in the flesh (proselyte) and submit to circumcision in order to be identified with God's chosen people. After the Law was given to Moses, that Gentile, and all others, had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. Jesus said in Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel," and in John 4:22 "...for salvation is of the Jews." There was a "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile. The Gentiles were considered "heathen", "unclean", "outside the gate" and called "dogs."

Is the above true today during this "dispensation of grace?" NO!!! During this age of grace, we find that God had set the nation of Israel aside (Romans 11:7-12), temporarily (vs 25) ; just as he did the Gentiles back at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them all (Jew and Gentile) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." So today there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile, they are now both in the same "set aside boat," see also (Romans 10:12). So now there is no distinction between the Jew and Gentile. God showed that to Peter in Acts 10 when He told Peter that the Gentile was no longer to be considered "unclean." The "middle wall of partition is NOW broken down.

So, What did God do with these two "set aside peoples?" He MADE the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15. This "new creation is known today as the Body of Christ. It consists of Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction. This "new creation cannot be found in prophesy, but was revealed to the Apostle Paul in the "revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

Tim keeps on:
Chafer gives a fuller explanation of this fundamental pillar of dispensational theology:

The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.4

We may therefore state that two of the primary pillars of dispensational theology are:
1) that God requires different standards of righteousness for different dispensations
or eras
- and -
2) that Israel and the Church are always distinct, and that God’s purposes and requirements for each are therefore also distinct.

The dispensationalist’s need to maintain the distinction between Israel and the Church means that the walk (way of life) given to Israel is ‘distinct from that required of the Church.’ It is understandable, therefore, why those who accept dispensationalism would naturally consider the Torah to be something that applies to Israel, but not to the Church. And their logical next step asserts that the New Covenant (understood as the ‘New Testament’) forms the “way of life” for the Church today.

BigD responds:
To begin with, I have never read any of Chafer's writings. And, as I have said before, dispensationalism is not a denomination or doctrine. Chafer may study the Bible from a dispensational view point and gets his theology from that, but not all dispensationalists believe and teach the same thing. If I read any of his writings I may or may not agree with some of the things he writes, but I surely do not look to him as a "pillar."

Tim writes:
"We may therefore state that two of the primary pillars of dispensational theology are:
1) that God requires different standards of righteousness for different dispensations
or eras"

BigD responds:
This is entirely a FALSE assumption, as I have state above.

Tim continues:
"2) that Israel and the Church are always distinct, and that God’s purposes and requirements for each are therefore also distinct."

BigD responds:
Well be finally agree on something.

God raised up Moses and gave to him  His instructions in righteousness for the children of Israel. Those instruction can be found in the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. The Gentiles were never under the Law unless the wanted to serve the true and living God. Then they had to become Jews (proselytes) and place themselves under those Laws.

After God set the nation of Israel aside, there was no way for the good news of the gospel to go forward. ALL, Jew and Gentile, are in the same "set aside boat." Therefore, God raised up Saul/Paul and MADE the "one new man" of Eph 2:15 ,the Body of Christ, and revealed to the Apostle Paul that "which was kept secret since the world began."  Also, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (LAW) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect to an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days; Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" (Col 2 14-17).

We know from Jer 23:5 and Matt 6:10 that the kingdom promised to Israel will be on this earth.

We know from 2Cor5:1: Col 3:1-2; Philippians 3:20 that members of the Body of Christ have their hope in heaven and not upon the earth.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord! Also, "...rightly divide the word of truth" 2Tim2:15

[Tim Vaughan]

If you no longer sacrifice animals to cover your sins, you are a dispensationalists. If you do not adhere to the Sabbath Day Laws of the Old Testament, then you are a dispensationalists. If you do not believe that circumcision is required today, then you are a dispensationalist

You dilute the mean of the word into nothingness. Dispensationalism is a modern heresy that has infected the church, especially here in the US. That's all that it is.

[Tim Vaughan]

And obviously, what Paul is saying here in Romans 3 is not at odds with the Law because he later says: "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

We are having a discussion between one person, Chesed, who is a legalist, and several others who are antinomian. Both schools of thought lay outside mainstream Christianity.

The way to understand the law is to ask youself how the particular law was fulfilled in Christ.

[Brother Love]

And obviously, what Paul is saying here in Romans 3 is not at odds with the Law because he later says: "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

We are having a discussion between one person, Chesed, who is a legalist, and several others who are antinomian. Both schools of thought lay outside mainstream Christianity.

The way to understand the law is to ask youself how the particular law was fulfilled in Christ.

Oh Boy