Satanic Holy Days

[BigD]

oneBook continues:
I was raised in dispensationalism, (a general belief that there are different eras where God's requirements change in regards to the Law of Moses, and that God has 2 brides- Israel and the Church).  I studied the Bible and didn't see how that was possible without much of God's Word being rendered false (as in the example from Deut. above). If Jesus preached the message to the disciples that included the law, and then told them to teach it to all the Gentiles, then how can Paul come along and say that Gentiles don't need the law.

BigD responds:
It is apparent to me that your dispensational teachings came from the doctrine of some man. In my study of the Bible, I have never seen that God had 2 brides, but one, and that is Israel.

When one "rightly divides" the Scriptures, one will see that Paul did not preach the same message that Jesus preached while He was upon the earth. However, Paul did preach the message that Jesus gave to him from His heavenly position. When Jesus was upon the earth, He preached "the gospel of the kingdom" (Matt 4:23; 9:35). Paul NEVER preached "the gospel of the kingdom. Paul preached "the gospel of the grace of God," that was revealed to him by Christ, from His heavenly position, (see Galatians 1:11,12). "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, but is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Ephesians 3:5). Also read 1-10.

When Jesus was upon the earth, the Law was in effect. Even thought Jesus and the 12 preached "the gospel of the kingdom," the Law was in effect at that time. Also, when the kingdom is established upon the earth the Law will also be in effect. Jesus promised His 12 disciples that they would be sitting on 12 thornes judging the 12 tribes of Isreal. For one to be able to judge, there must be a law to judge by. Further, the Law was only given to the nation of Isreal. For a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to place themselves under the Law.

When Jesus gave the 12 the "so called" great commission, It was to go to all the world with the gospel of the kingdom. That gospel included the observance of the Law. Also, when that gospel is again preached after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, the Law will again be in effect. The Gentile during that time will again also have to place themselves under the Law in the kingdom that Jesus will establish upon the earth.

It was when Isreal, as a nation, rejected the Trinity; that God set gave Israel "slumbering eyes" (Rm 11:8). God is not dealing with Israel as a nation while they are temporarily sleeping (set aside). "...blindness in part (temporarily) is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (vs 25), which is the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

Jesus was the only person that kept all aspects of the Laws of Moses. Therefore, He fulfilled ALL of it.

In Romans 11:32 we find that God had "...concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all." Just as God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11, He now has set the nation of Israel aside also. He informs Peter of this In Acts 10. With Israel temporarily blinded/set aside, so is the Law. The Gentile no longer has to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Law to serve the true and living God.

After God set Israel aside, He MADE the "one new man" of Epehsians 2:15, known today as "the Body of Christ." There is no longer a distinction between the Jew and Gentile. They are both in the same "set aside boat." A graceous God raised up the self proclaimed "chief of sinners" to bring a new message of God's grace to a lost and dying world. That message was not the "good news" of the Law, but the "good news" of Grace. Not salvation by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, but by one placing their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ.

All those that are saved under the dispensation of the Law will inherit the kingdom here upon the earth. All believers saved during this dispensation of grace, in which we now live, will inherit a heavenly home. This dispensation of grace is a (parenthetical) period during the dispensation of the Law. It cannot be found in prophesy and "was kept secret since the world began" until revealed to the Apostle Paul.
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oneBook goes on:
Of course, I would not say that Paul's and Jesus' message conflicted, but that they preached the same gospel.
The thing that causes the most confusion in regards to the law is that when we read "law" (as Christians) we generally view it as a monolithic representation of the Torah.  In other words, every time we see that word, we assume Paul is talking about the Torah.  This is not the case.  In fact Paul's most used term- "under the law" is not referring to the Torah, but to a state of erroneous belief that by being circumsized, you become part of Israel.  Indeed, you do become subject to rabbinic law, but both Paul and Jesus rebuke rabbinic law where it oversteps God's law (the Torah), and where the rabbinic law was a burden that hurt people instead of helped to keep God's law as in-

Mat. 23:4
4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger."

Paul makes all his points using God's law to prove that God's law teaches that it can't impart rightousness.  God's law points to the death and resurection of the Messiah as a means to pay for Israel's and the Gentiles sins.  

To prove that the term "under the law" is not equivalent with "Torah" (God's law) lets look at the following verse:

1 Cor. 9:19
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

This is interesting that Paul states that he "became as a Jew" seing that Paul is a Jew by birth!  Second, he states clearly that he is not under the law even though he became as one who is under the law.  This no doubt is a reference to the fact that Paul submitted to the whip of the synagogue when they punished him for his proclaiming Yeshua.  From historical records, we can see that lashes were given in many cases instead of a death penalty.  The thinking was that if the person submitted to lashes, then they were not rebellious in intent. Next he came to those "without law" though Paul was not without the law of God (Torah), but was under the law of Messiah (Christ).  In that statement he equates the 2 laws, e.g. the law of God = the law of Messiah.

Here again we find talk of the "burden" of Messiah-

28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

The word for burden referred to the obligation of a person to the leaders interperetation of God's law.  Jesus said the teachers of that day were placing a heavy burden on the people, and we can easily see that by reading a little of the Talmud.  The laws were multiplied and taken beyond the reasonable understanding of God's law.  Jesus was saying that His obligation was light in the way he interpereted God's law.

BigD responds:
Paul and Jesus did preach different messages. Jesus preached "the gospel of the kingdom" to the Jews only. Paul never preached "the gospel of the kingdom", but "the gospel of the grace of God" to all mankind. The 12 disciples were sent to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom to all the world, but I can't find a record that they ever did. Yes, Peter went to Cornelius, but God had to send him. We find in Glatians 2:9 that James, Peter and John agreed with Paul that they woul stay with the Jews while he went to the Gentiles. Even the epistles written by those men are written to the Jews.

As one that is classified as a dispensationalist, there is one rule I attempt to never violate. That is NEVER read future revelation into past events. One should never read Paul's Epistles into the Gospels. That is like reading the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden.  You quote Mattew 23:4 above but there is no doubt in my mind that you do not observe Matthew 23:3. You are mixing apples and oranges and not worthy of comment, other then to say you should not do that.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

Man has made a horrible mess with tags, labels, denominations, and all kinds of other man-made divisions.

BUT, there is HOPE, and that HOPE hasn't changed. The Gospel of the Grace of God is simple enough for a child to understand. God made it simple enough for a child to understand because children are precious to him. For adults coming to Christ, HE wants us to come to him as little children with faith in Jesus and all of HIS Promises.

The preaching of the Cross and Jesus is the GOOD NEWS! The simplicity and beauty of the GOOD NEWS is that anyone can understand it and simply come to Jesus like a little child, ask Jesus to forgive our sins, and ask Jesus to come into our hearts. Little children understand gifts and presents. Little children quickly accept gifts, and they don't ask a thousand questions before opening and enjoying the gift. Little children can also understand the simple truth that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us, and he wants us to love Him.

I give thanks for the simplicity of the Gospel of the Grace of God. I also give thanks for the simplicity of accepting God's GIFT and loving HIM. Most of all, I give thanks for HIM loving me, dying on the cross for me, and saving me.

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT!

Love In Christ,
Tom

[MalkyEL]

I like your style BEP - I was gonna post something similar  

As I sit back skimming over all the verbage in this thread, I am reminded that the Gospel is clear, simple, concise - not obscure and loaded with rules and works.

Jesus said, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself.  He said - this My NEW commandment - Love one another as I have loved you.

He also said in Matt 25 that there will be two groups of people - sheep and goats - the sheep walk in love and compassion [when you have done it to the least of these, you have done it unto Me] and are part of the Kingdom of Heaven - the goats don't, and are accursed.  Simple, clear, concise.  

I just wanna be a sheep  

Shalom, Nana

[MalkyEL]

I found this while surfing the web:

Part 1

In my study over many years, I have heard clever sayings like "eat the fish and spit out the bones". I have witnessed many who had convinced themselves that they could do this, but before they could back away from their culinary “experience” the bones got caught in their throats. By this I mean that I have witnessed people who flirted with "teachings" that led them into doubt about who the Messiah really was, about the validity and inspiration of the New Testament Scriptures, and the next thing you know, they were practicing their own self styled faith which loosely resembled rabbinic Judaism. I have learned that there are many false prophets and false teachers in the "messianic/roots/sacred name" movement, as well as in the vaguely defined “Christian” movement, who are more concerned about building a financial kingdom, than they are about peoples spiritual well being and eternal destination. Many of the people in the roots movement are self professed “former” Christians, who now view themselves as being “de-Christianized”, but the truth of the matter is, that they have taken many of the errors and false teachings learned from their particular denomination, and brought them along into the Messianic movement. There is also another important observation that I have made in my travels. Goats will eat anything but sheep are usually very selective. We should probably all use this example, and check our spiritual "plates" very closely and often, because sometimes the bones are well hidden. Another observation is that it’s often harmful for the spiritual nutrition of “sheep” if they feed on goat’s food, and like arsenic, it appears to be cumulative. It has always perplexed me why some people would spend so much time and effort searching for what they somehow perceive to be an edible scrap of “food”, when in order to retrieve it, they must first dive to the bottom of a dumpster and sort through all of the “garbage” before they can “savor” it.

It also seems so inconceivable to me lately, how many I have seen or heard about, who have denied the Messiah, and who have fallen away from the Faith. “How did this happen?” was a question that I first asked myself. The answer is a simple one. It is not about how much esoteric extra biblical "gnostic" teaching we can absorb. It is about relationship. Every one is reading books "about" the scriptures, which are merely the opinions of men, but few are actually "dividing" the word like the noble Bereans did, and were commended for in the book of Acts. The scripture clearly warns us about this folly of being led by those with a "form" of godliness in 2 Timothy 3, where we are told that if we do this we will be:

7 "always learning, but never being able to come to a full knowledge of the truth."

There are many books, articles, and “teachings” that are currently circulating in this movement, and also many websites, that I often wonder about. In their search for new and “exciting” esoteric information to tickle their ears, many are accepting anything looking remotely Hebraic as automatic gospel truth. It is amazing that there are so many authors who have grown up in suburbia in "ethnic homes", and then in their thirties or forties they realize that they may have something that they can "market" because of their claimed Jewishness [which some falsely manufacture], change their names, write a book, [or a series of books] and everyone eats it up like candy, hanging on every last word. People are always talking about the "mysteries", when they have not even mastered what is written in the surface text of the Scriptures. It is a mystery to me that A Most High Righteous Elohim keeps on putting up with us. The fact that He does is a true definition and demonstration of His long suffering, and unselfish love. I often wonder how much longer He will “wink” at this behavior.

Lately, it has been like a deja vu, reminding me of the days when I would occasionally tune in to one of the religious broadcasting networks and see all the preachers acting like they had the "holiest " of intentions, shouting the name of Jesus while secretly formulating their next money making scheme. Eventually, as we all know, their madness became known, and many of their "kingdoms" were divided.
Many in this movement appear to me as being a similar situation. They have the characteristics of those same types of vipers, but with different names and “teachings”. It reminds me of the hippies who started out with peace, love, and good intentions, and then all ended up on Wall Street selling out just like the people they had so angrily criticized.

Well, enough of my complaining. This is a new year, things are moving fast, and self professed "prophets" who refer to themselves as “Christians”, and other proven false prophets from the Hebraic movement, have also said that there will be a whole lot happening [1].
I am starting to think that I might need a new image. Maybe I will start a website and a forum, open up a live online chat room, and possibly even change my screen name. I can then post on my forum under multiple screen names, while pretending to be different people, and use one of my aliases to cheer on the other and tell myself how “deep” and “ruach [spirit] based” my teachings are.

Maybe I will write a letter to my website posing as an “enlightened” follower using one of my many aliases, pointing out the fact that I am an amazing leader/teacher/prophet. I will write another stating that I am the one who is “truly” anointed, and who has clearly been appointed to take the “true” faith once delivered to the apostles to all of the world, and to “unlock” the books that have been sealed, therefore clearing up all misunderstanding created by the faulty translations from the “altered” and “corrupted” Greek texts. These “errors” were of course further compounded by the incorrect “interpretation” of books like Galatians by the church, so I will “correct” and “restore” them to their original meaning.

[MalkyEL]

Part 2

From now on, maybe I will promote myself as " Dr." H. Truth, or maybe throw a "ben" or a "bar" in there somewhere to give me a little more Hebraic flavor like some of the other “instant sages” in this movement have done. I am sure you are all wondering why. I never put the six or so years in needed to become a Doctorate of Theology, but as I have seen in the past and lately, that really doesn't matter. People will not ask for proof as long as you are telling them what they want to hear, [2] and will even plunk down their hard earned cash to buy it.


I will formulate my own "gospel of hate" based on my gospel of greed, and teach that my group practices the “original faith”. I will not personally lead anyone to salvation, but will merely lure them away from the faith that they once practiced by openly mocking and condemning it, and then by using my “scholarship” and newly “revealed” understandings which will assist them in charting their journey into the spiritually “murky” waters of uncertainty and confusion. This “course”, which is littered with the “fallen” who have gone before them, will eventually lead them to the shallow rocky waters of gnosticism where the faith they once held will become tragically “shipwrecked” [3]


I will assemble my own band of loyal followers [cheering section] by creating strife and division, throw around some "mystical" or kabbalistic terms, and then refer to all others who are not as "knowing" with derogatory names such as "kirche" or "xtians” while justifying my actions as "tough love". I will, of course, choose a "special" name for The Almighty and the Messiah that only my group of followers will use. If anyone tries to question why it is not translatable from the original Hebrew, I will just point to my "credentials", or perhaps claim that “ha satan” is attempting to persecute me because I am the “chosen” messenger.


If I feel like getting really bold, I may even imply that the billions of people who read those "corrupted" bible translations and called on the Name of Jesus may not have achieved "true" salvation, and may even tell them that baptism in “that” name is not really legitimate, and that it could possibly be the name of the “abomination” or the anti-christ. I will allude to the “fact” that my group of "true" believers may be the remnant that was spoken of, and the sole heirs to the Kingdom.[4]


I will write articles and books, possibly even a series, based on my" learned" or "revealed" wisdom, even if it does not line up with scripture. Better yet, I can create my own "translation" that will “unlock” the books that have been sealed up until now, by utilizing someone else’s base text, possibly even one of the texts that I had previously described to my followers as being "corrupt", and then punch in a few Hebraic sounding words and phrases, add a few “scholarly” footnotes, and with that, maybe I can make the scriptures "line up" with MY theology [5].
If I have a hard time defining some of the Hebrew words because of my limited language skills, or if they can not be found in the lexicon that I am using to “translate” with, I can just use Yiddish words instead, because none of the non-Jews who buy my "restored" translation will realize it anyway.


Some of the articles that I write might even be controversial, but that is okay, because then I will be able to debate people, and then sell books and video tapes related to the debate. There is also the possibility that I can attend some Christian “merchandising/broadcast” conventions, even if my teachings go against their supposed statement of faith, and line up some broadcast time to promote my "ministry" on networks owned by those who I have in the past criticized, called derogatory names, and whose beliefs I reject. I can arrange some speaking tours, and then spam all of the forums, and personal e-mail addresses gleaned from those forums with my unsolicited notification of the event, as well as ads for the latest merchandise that I am peddling.

[MalkyEL]

Part 3

Even better yet, I can set up some conferences utilizing the facilities which are also owned by some of those same people who I have so harshly condemned, while deceptively convincing them that I am just an average Messianic lover of “Jesus”, instead of a person who actually despises everything that they believe and stand for. What is most amazing, is that they will not have a clue, even after I request that they cover up or remove all the crosses and other symbols of their faith from the premises while we are there.


For my finale, maybe I can imply that I am the one written about who is "like Moses", and that all the people who have been enlightened by my "deep teaching" should follow me as their leader into a "greater exodus". I will "teach" them, through utilizing my "sod" kabbalistic interpretation of the scriptures, and of course through “direct revelation”, that they should sell all of their belongings, and then generously support my "ministry"[6]. It will be most important that they do this while waiting patiently for me to get my "direct revelation", even though I am a proven false prophet [7], signaling that it is the correct time for me to lead all of the "true believers" out of the United States [or “babylon” if you prefer] into the "promised land" which will be somewhere in the middle east. I will through my “teachings” reinforce the importance of us being there as predicted in Biblical prophecy, so that we the “remnant”, “the elect”, and the ones who are “great in the kingdom of heaven”, can usher in the Messiah and fulfill the end time prophecy.


Of course, eventually my madness will become evident as it has with many others before me [8-9]....Think


BACK TO REALITY


If the Messiah showed up on the scene today, do you think He might tip over some tables?

Sincerely,
"Dr." H. "bar" Truth

Footnotes:
[1] If a "prophet" makes enough predictions, the odds are that eventually one of these ambiguous statements will occur. At this point they can then step up and receive the prophets "crown". I have also learned, that no matter how loudly someone cries "lashon hara" or "slander", false teaching is STILL false teaching, and false prophecy is the same as well.[In the TaNaKh [OT], false prophets were stoned]

[2] 2 Timothy 4

3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear;
4 and they will turn away the ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths.

[3] 1Timothy 1
18 This charge I commit to you, my son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before about you, in order that you might war a good warfare by them, 19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some have put away and made shipwreck as to faith.
2 Corinthians 11
3 But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, so your thoughts should be corrupted from the simplicity due to Christ. 4 For if, indeed, the one coming proclaims another Jesus, whom we have not proclaimed, or if you receive another spirit, which you did not receive, or another gospel, which you never accepted, you might well endure these.

[4] Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[5] I also have the option of doing my own "translation" so that I can make scripture "line up" with MY theology. Let me see....Revelation 22:18-19... Hmmmm....on second thought...maybe not.

[6] "Limited" free kool-aid will be given in exchange for all of my follower’s worldly possessions.

[7] If one removes failed prophecies that they have made from their website, does it relieve them of being defined as a false prophet?

[8] 2 Timothy 3
8 But in the way Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so also these withstand the truth, men having been corrupted in mind, found worthless concerning the faith.
9 But they will not go further, for their foolishness will be plain to all, as also that of those became.

[9] Numbers 16:23-35
23 And the LORD spoke to Moses saying,
24 Speak to the congregation saying, Get away from the tent of Korah and Dathan and Abiram.
25 And Moses rose up and went to Dathan and Abiram. And the elders of Israel followed him.
26 And he spoke to the congregation, saying, I pray you, get away from the tents of these wicked men. And touch nothing of theirs lest you be destroyed in all their sins.
27 So they got away from the tent of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, on every side. And Dathan and Abiram came out and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little sons.
28 And Moses said, By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that not from my own heart.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they are visited according to the examination of all men, the LORD has not sent me.
30 But if the LORD makes a new thing, and the earth opens her mouth and swallows them up with all that they have, and they go down alive into the pit, then you shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
31 And it happened, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.
32 And the earth opened her mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who were for Korah, and all their goods.
33 They and all that they had went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed upon them. And they perished from among the congregation.
34 And all Israel around them fled at their cry. For they said, Lest the earth swallow us up.
35 And there came out a fire from the LORD and burned up the two hundred and fifty men who offered incense.

I do not ever recall reading in the scriptures, when John the Baptist was preparing the way of the Messiah, that he was setting up tables, and selling tapes, books, shofars, DVD’s, and "conversions"...

[end]

[Chesed]

MalkyEl –

That is an interesting article you found on the web. Do you mind citing the source?

He does say many things that are sadly true about the Messianic movement. I’ve heard it referred to as “the granola factor" – flakes, fruits and nuts. We’ve seen it all.

But yes, it is hard to laugh when there are a lot of false teachings within the Messianic movement. Such as: Gentiles believing they are part of the lost tribes of Israel. Or believing that gentiles are second class citizens and encouraged to either go to a gentile Christian church, convert to Judaism or to only support the Messianic movement financially (as stated by organizations such as UMJC, such groups are more concerned with being accepted by Jewish communities than by God; making our identity in lineage rather than our identity being in Messiah).  There are also self proclaimed “Rabbis” who have never attended any seminary whether Christian or Jewish.

All these reasons above is why I have a hard time labeling myself as messianic because I don’t want to be painted with the same brush. The congregation we go to can only be best described as a Torah community. Our Pastor is a two time graduate of a Baptist seminary, and belongs to ETS (Evangelical Theological Society). Scriptural accuracy is important to us.

As an aside, the Pastor of the non-denominational evangelical (Mega) Church I attended growing up was (a few years ago) accused of improprieties regarding children and was also arrested for lewd conduct. We hear of stories like this all the time, along with stories of false teachings, charismania (snake handling, laughing, barking, etc.) in the Christian Church but that doesn’t render evangelical Christianity illegitimate.
*********************************************

Sanctification is done by God only, not by works.  Keeping the law does not sanctify a person.

You are half right.  Sanctification is both God’s work in us and obeying God’s Law:

De 10:16 " So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer. “

De 30:6 - "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.”

So which is it? Will God circumcise our hearts or does He want us to circumcise our hearts? It’s both.

Jesus says:
Mt 5:48 - But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Yet, we also know that we are made perfect in Him.

Here's another verse that illustrates this joint effort of sanctification:

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2)

Shalom,
Chesed

[MalkyEL]

let's define sanctify:

Strong's Greek  #37  hagiazo

1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
a) consecrate things to God
b) dedicate people to God

3) to purify
a) to cleanse externally
b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

I believe this refers to a spiritual purification - not done by works, but by the refining work of the Holy Spirit only.

Circumsicion of the heart is a process that can only be done by the work and power of the Holy Spirit.  It is true that we submit our hearts to Him, but the work is a spiritual process not done by hands.

I believe that the premise of "doing something" for God is the false base from which a Torah observant lifestyle is founded.  There is none righteous.  We are born in sin, and continue to sin for all of our lives.  There is absolutely nothing we can do based on any kind of works to retain salvation, or to make one righteous or sanctified before God.

Righteous and santification come by way of an internal spiritual process.  It is based purely on relationship, not on works.  This is the beauty of what Jesus did for us on the cross.  Man is no longer required "to do" in order to find favor with God.

Obedience to God changes in perspective.  The works that He prepared for us are not rules and regulations.  They are the deeds that He predestined for us to do.  To love our neighbor - to reach out in love and compassion to the lost, the hurting, the helpless, the sick, the distressed.  This what Jesus taught.  It is accomplished however God leads us to do that.  All of our efforts to do good, to be perfect [mature] in Him can only be "good" when they are done in and through His will.

Keeping of the laws never sanctified anyone and never can.  This is why the Messiah came - to cleanse us of the sin, to atone for all of the sins we commit - to change our hearts through rebirth in the Holy Spirit.  No amount of keeping the law will change our hearts - it is a carnal law kept in the flesh.  

We are now born of Spirit and the law we keep is written on our hearts - that law is "scribed" in the law of love, compassion, mercy, in an encompassing view of how we relate to those God has willed and purposed for us to reach out to.  It is also a law of the mind of Christ, which guarantees that the Holy Spirit will convict us of wrong doing, in this we are made Holy as He is Holy.

Being led by the Holy Spirit is the impetus in which we know right from wrong.  We are washed and cleansed continually by staying in the Word of God - it shows us what God expects from us - in attitude, thought, word and deed.  It keeps our hearts pure and in obedience to the law of Christ.  A law that holds us accountable for our thoughts and our actions towards others.  A law that keeps us submitted to the purifying and sanctifying work of the Spirit and thereby, we become imitators of Jesus Christ.

Shalom, Nana

[MalkyEL]

The 3 part writing that I quoted was found on several forums, however; I found a site that posted it also:

http://www.seekgod.ca/highertruth.htm

Shalom, Nana

[oneBook]

Hey BigD,

I'll try to keep this shorter, it appears we are in sync on some of the lingo and thinking now, and understand each other better.

I have a few questions I would like to focus on.

BigD responds:
It is apparent to me that your dispensational teachings came from the doctrine of some man. In my study of the Bible, I have never seen that God had 2 brides, but one, and that is Israel.

If God has only one bride, then how are Gentiles included in that bride?  Bride implies that there is a covenant.  Without a covenant, you cannot be in right relationship with God, so if He has another covenant, then he must have another bride....
Please comment on this, and elaborate on the scriptural basis for your covenant.

When Jesus gave the 12 the "so called" great commission, It was to go to all the world with the gospel of the kingdom. That gospel included the observance of the Law. Also, when that gospel is again preached after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, the Law will again be in effect. The Gentile during that time will again also have to place themselves under the Law in the kingdom that Jesus will establish upon the earth.

What law then did Paul mean that we should judge within the body with in 1 Cor. 6:1-7 (written to Gentiles)-

1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? 4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren, 6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?

The Gentile no longer has to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Law to serve the true and living God.

They never did.  This idea only can be traced back to Hasmonean times (the intra-biblical period where the story of Hannukah took place).  It is clear in the Torah that if someone came to live among them, they had to follow the laws of Israel, (there is to be one law for the native and stranger) but they didn't become "Jews" by doing so.  They could even worship in the Temple/Tabernacle although they could not take of certain sacrifices (like the Passover).

After God set Israel aside, He MADE the "one new man" of Epehsians 2:15, known today as "the Body of Christ." There is no longer a distinction between the Jew and Gentile. They are both in the same "set aside boat." A graceous God raised up the self proclaimed "chief of sinners" to bring a new message of God's grace to a lost and dying world. That message was not the "good news" of the Law, but the "good news" of Grace. Not salvation by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, but by one placing their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ.

Note that in Eph. 2, the body they are joined to is the commonwealth of Israel.  Paul states that Gentiles are now no longer "strangers" and "aliens", but fellow citizens.  These terms parallel the Torah's usage of "stranger" (Hebrew "ger") and "alien" (Hebrew- "nocher").  A ger was one who lived and resided in Israel and was expected to keep the laws of Israel.  A nocher was a forigner who was just passing through.
Paul was saying that we are to be viewed as fellow citizens.

All those that are saved under the dispensation of the Law will inherit the kingdom here upon the earth. All believers saved during this dispensation of grace, in which we now live, will inherit a heavenly home. This dispensation of grace is a (parenthetical) period during the dispensation of the Law. It cannot be found in prophesy and "was kept secret since the world began" until revealed to the Apostle Paul.

How can it be not found in prophesy when Paul says the prophets and scripture lay it out in Rom. 16:25-27

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Additionally, those eternal commands lead to an obedience of faith to God through Messiah Jesus.  Is this Paul's gospel or Jesus'?

As one that is classified as a dispensationalist, there is one rule I attempt to never violate. That is NEVER read future revelation into past events. One should never read Paul's Epistles into the Gospels. That is like reading the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden.

I didn't read Paul into Jesus, but I read Paul's writings in light of the revelation that God already set down (namely, the Torah, prophets, and the message of Messiah). Here is a hermenutic I think is key- read the epistles assuming they are in line with God's word revealed in the OT or Messiah. In other words, always look at new revelation in the light of the already revealed (the Mormons and Muslims blew this hermenutic), would you agree?

You quote Mattew 23:4 above but there is no doubt in my mind that you do not observe Matthew 23:3. You are mixing apples and oranges and not worthy of comment, other then to say you should not do that.

I do think in context Matt. 23:3, Jesus is talking to those who are born under the administration of the Pharasies, and is instructing them to respect their position and rulings in regards to the Torah, but not to act like them (since they were hipocrytical). The Torah gave them that authority (they were sitting in the seat of Moses).

However, I was not born under the law- I am a Gentile.  I have now come under the law of God (aka law of Messiah, Torah), but I am not "under the law" (the government of pysical Israel) as Paul refers to it. (1 Cor. 9:19) I am under the King of Israel.  I would not go and get circumcised to place myself "under the law" because the apostles in Acts 15:7-11 advised against it-

7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

circumcision was the issue to be sure, but what "yolk" (or "burden" in some translations) did circumcision put on the necks of Gentile believers?  It placed them under the authorities of the Pharisee's that Jesus told the disciples they needed to submit to (though carefully since their actions didn't line up with the Torah they were teaching).

In Acts 15:19-21, it is apparent that the Gentiles in question were already associated with the Jewish community per the last statement (in v. 21)-
19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."


This letter that the disciples wrote was the one that Paul delivered when he was traveling around.

So BigD, I know you aren't into denominations etc, and neither am I, but I think in conversation it helps to know loosely where the other person is coming from.  I was raised in an evangelical non-denom. (I think non-denominational is a denomination ) which was pastored by a Baptist seminary grad with a doctorate of something (theology I think).  I aslo attended a Christian School (dutch reform) growing up till 8th grade. In high-school I got caught up into the Messianic thing and have moved around in that circle for some time (boy there are alot of whaky things in this circle).  I initially went that direction because all the answers I got for the discrepencies between the OT and NT didn't seem to jive, and all the leaders I asked seemed to have a memorized answer and could not explain it in their own words. I also wanted to study Hebrew, and messianic congregations are a good place to do that.

My position has changed over the years as I study and pray and read.  I like to talk over the scriptures because that is how I come across new information. It has been a pleasure discussing.

Peace and blessings-

-oneBook

[Chesed]

MalkyEl -

Lev 20:7-8 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.  And you shall keep my statutes, and do them: I [am] the LORD who sanctifies you.  

Look, it's both something we do and something God does in us!

The word here in Hebrew is "qadash" which is related to the Hebrew word "qadosh" = holy. Qadash is to make something holy.

Nana, it seems to me that you are confusing the terms salvation with sanctification.

No we are not saved by our works. We are saved by faith. But faith without works is dead.

I believe that the premise of "doing something" for God is the false base from which a Torah observant lifestyle is founded.

The only way anyone can please God by keeping Torah, is by having faith in Jesus the Messiah. Good works happen as a result of our faith:

 Eph. 2:8-11 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand (Torah) so that we would walk in them.
 
The work of the Spirit in our lives is the Spirit inspiring us to keep God's Law:

Romans 8:3b-9 He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

[MalkyEL]

Chesed quoted:
Lev 20:7-8 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy: for I [am] the LORD your God.  And you shall keep my statutes, and do them: I [am] the LORD who sanctifies you.  
Look, it's both something we do and something God does in us!
The word here in Hebrew is "qadash" which is related to the Hebrew word "qadosh" = holy. Qadash is to make something holy.

Chesed wrote:
Nana, it seems to me that you are confusing the terms salvation with sanctification.
No we are not saved by our works. We are saved by faith. But faith without works is dead.

Nana:
Isa 64:6  But we are all as the unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as a menstruation cloth. And we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Nana re-Quote:
I believe that the premise of "doing something" for God is the false base from which a Torah observant lifestyle is founded.  

[BigD]

theBook posted:

Hey BigD,

I'll try to keep this shorter, it appears we are in sync on some of the lingo and thinking now, and understand each other better.

I have a few questions I would like to focus on.

BigD responds:
It is apparent to me that your dispensational teachings came from the doctrine of some man. In my study of the Bible, I have never seen that God had 2 brides, but one, and that is Israel.

oneBook responds:

If God has only one bride, then how are Gentiles included in that bride?  Bride implies that there is a covenant.  Without a covenant, you cannot be in right relationship with God, so if He has another covenant, then he must have another bride....
Please comment on this, and elaborate on the scriptural basis for your covenant.

BigD replies:
The only Gentiles that will be included in "the Bride of Christ" are the proselytes that were converted to Judism.

Israel is "the Bride of Christ." The Church, the Body of Christ, IS NOT "the Bride of Christ."

The marriage supper of the lamb (Rev.19:7) takes place upon the earth. The Chruch, the Body of Christ , will be in heaven at that time, and has no place in the earthly kingdom.

I know of no Scriptural reference that states that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is the Body of Christ.

Christ is the head of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, and we  more of the bridegroom (Christ) then the Bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" (Ephesians 5:30).

BigD posted:

When Jesus gave the 12 the "so called" great commission, It was to go to all the world with the gospel of the kingdom. That gospel included the observance of the Law. Also, when that gospel is again preached after the rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ, the Law will again be in effect. The Gentile during that time will again also have to place themselves under the Law in the kingdom that Jesus will establish upon the earth.

theBook responded:

What law then did Paul mean that we should judge within the body with in 1 Cor. 6:1-7 (written to Gentiles)-

1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life? 4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren, 6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?

BigD responds:
In the above passage Paul is speaking of the present civil Laws and teaching that believers should not go to the civil courts against eachother, but handle their disputes through other believers and trust them to make the proper decision.

BigD posted:

The Gentile no longer has to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Law to serve the true and living God.

theBook responded:

They never did.  This idea only can be traced back to Hasmonean times (the intra-biblical period where the story of Hannukah took place).  It is clear in the Torah that if someone came to live among them, they had to follow the laws of Israel, (there is to be one law for the native and stranger) but they didn't become "Jews" by doing so.  They could even worship in the Temple/Tabernacle although they could not take of certain sacrifices (like the Passover).

BigD responds:
Abram was a Gentile, However, he became a "Jew in the flesh" after God changed his name to Abraham and required him to be circumcised. See Genesis 17:9-14 for those who were required to be circumcised.

After God gave His instructions in righteousness for the nation of Israel through the Laws of Moses, that was the only way one could be saved/justified. Therefore, if a Gentile wanted to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jewish proselyte, and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

BigD posted:

After God set Israel aside, He MADE the "one new man" of Epehsians 2:15, known today as "the Body of Christ." There is no longer a distinction between the Jew and Gentile. They are both in the same "set aside boat." A graceous God raised up the self proclaimed "chief of sinners" to bring a new message of God's grace to a lost and dying world. That message was not the "good news" of the Law, but the "good news" of Grace. Not salvation by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, but by one placing their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ.

theBook responded:

Note that in Eph. 2, the body they are joined to is the commonwealth of Israel.  Paul states that Gentiles are now no longer "strangers" and "aliens", but fellow citizens.  These terms parallel the Torah's usage of "stranger" (Hebrew "ger") and "alien" (Hebrew- "nocher").  A ger was one who lived and resided in Israel and was expected to keep the laws of Israel.  A nocher was a forigner who was just passing through.
Paul was saying that we are to be viewed as fellow citizens.

BigD replies:
To respond to the above (Ephe. 2:12) I am going to copy from "A Commentary Of EPHESIANS Based upon the Greek New Testament" by Ernest R. Campbell, founder and president of Canyon View Bible College.

I believe that the GNT gives a more accurate translation of the Original.

Also, I will delete the words that are written in the Greek language and will leave a () to indication all deletions.

12."that you were at that time without Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

Referring back to the time when they were uncircumcised Gentiles in the flesh, Paul says, "You were at that time without Christ." First, the Greek adverb translated "without" () means apart from and separated from Christ. The name "Christ” () is used in this context with a twofold significance: (1) these Gentiles were without the benefit of Christ's redeeming Blood, and (2) they were without the privilege of being members of His Body. The terrible plight of the Christless Gentiles is lucidly described in Romans 1:18-31.

Second, prior to being saved these Gentiles had been "alienated from the commonwealth of Israel." The Greek participle translated "having been alienated" () is in the perfect tense and passive voice. This means that from a given point of time on God had alienated, estranged, and shut them out of the commonwealth of Israel. The Greek noun rendered "commonwealth" () means that they were alienated from being a citizen, the right to be a citizen, or from citizenship in Israel. God sovereignly chose Abraham as the progenitor of Israel, His special people, and in so doing left the Gentiles outside as aliens (Gen. 12:1-3).

Third, before these Gentiles came to know Christ they were "strangers from the covenants of the promise." The Greek noun for "strangers" speaks of those who are not acquainted with the covenants. The Greek word for "covenants" () is in the plural, which implies that God made several covenants, arrangements, dispositions, and wills with Israel (Gen. 15:18; Ex. 19:5; Num. 25:13). Paul says that they were strangers of the covenants "of the promise." As already noted, the noun translated "covenants" is in the plural, but the word rendered "promise" () is in the singular, the genitive case, and has the article preceding it, and refers to a specific single promise which God made to Israel. This promise probably refers to the fact that God was going to send a Saviour to redeem the fallen Adamic race (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 53:2-6). The covenants made with Israel were sub-parts involved in the fulfillment of this promise. Since God sovereignly chose Israel as the people to whom He gave covenants in conjunction with the fulfillment of His redemptive promise, the Gentiles were strangers and unfamiliar with the covenants related to the promise (Rom. 9:4; 11:26-27; Heb. 9:15-16).

Fourth, we note that before these Gentiles became believers their condition was that of "having no hope." The Greek word for "hope" () means that they had nothing to look forward to, nothing to anticipate and expect in the future but death and subsequent judgment (Heb. 9:27; 10:26-27). The Greek participle rendered "having" is in the present tense and active voice which means that they were a people continuously void of hope. In First Thessalonians 4:13, Paul speaks of those who have died in the Lord, who await resurrection, in contrast to the grief suffered by "the rest who have no hope."

Fifth, Paul affirms that in past time these Gentiles were "without God in the world." The Greek word translated "without God" () is derived from "()" and "()" and literally means that they were a no- God, void-of-God people. This word, transliterated into English, depicts them as atheists. Observe, the sphere in which they are a no God people is "in the world" (). This is the sphere in which Adam and Eve rebelled against God, this is the sphere in which Satan has been given considerable authority (Luke 4:5-6; 2 Cor. 4:4; 1 John 5:19), and this is the sphere out of which God has chosen His elect (Acts 15:14; John 15:19; 1 Cor. 1:27-28). Other spheres which all atheists will occupy are a place of wrath (Rom. 2:5; Eph. 5:16) and the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10, 14).

God Blell.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

BigD posted:

All those that are saved under the dispensation of the Law will inherit the kingdom here upon the earth. All believers saved during this dispensation of grace, in which we now live, will inherit a heavenly home. This dispensation of grace is a (parenthetical) period during the dispensation of the Law. It cannot be found in prophesy and "was kept secret since the world began" until revealed to the Apostle Paul.

theBook responded:

How can it be not found in prophesy when Paul says the prophets and scripture lay it out in Rom. 16:25-27

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Additionally, those eternal commands lead to an obedience of faith to God through Messiah Jesus.  Is this Paul's gospel or Jesus'?

BigD responds:
When we study Paul's writings, he, more then any other NT writer used the OT Scriptures to show his listeners that Jesus was the Christ. However, the gospel that he preached (the gospel of the grace of God, i.e. salvation by grace through faith alone), and the purpose of the purpose of the cross all part of "the mystery which was kept secret since the world began" (Rm16:25).

The "apostles and prophets mentioned in vs 26 are referring to Paul's fellow laborers. God revealed to them, through the Spirit, that what Paul was saying was of Him.

Had the OT prophets have know what was revealed to Paul, then Paul would have been a liar by saying "which was kept secret since the world began."

BigD posted:

As one that is classified as a dispensationalist, there is one rule I attempt to never violate. That is NEVER read future revelation into past events. One should never read Paul's Epistles into the Gospels. That is like reading the Laws of Moses into the Garden of Eden.

theBookresponded:

I didn't read Paul into Jesus, but I read Paul's writings in light of the revelation that God already set down (namely, the Torah, prophets, and the message of Messiah). Here is a hermenutic I think is key- read the epistles assuming they are in line with God's word revealed in the OT or Messiah. In other words, always look at new revelation in the light of the already revealed (the Mormons and Muslims blew this hermenutic), would you agree?

BigD responds:
You cannot show me "the gospel of the grace of God" that Paul preached either in the OT or the gospels, or anytime prior to the raising up of the Apostle Paul

You cannot show me the purpose of the Cross prior to the raising up of the Apostle Paul.

You cannot show me where Paul ever preached that one must observe the Laws of Moses, by faith, for their salvation/justification.

What Paul preached was NEW REVELATION apart from what Jesus and the 12 preached. See Galatians 1:11,12 and Ephesians 3:2-10.

What Paul preached was to "the one new man," the "new creation" that God MADE after he set aside the Jews as He did the Gentiles.

God, as this time, is not dealing with Israel as His favorite people; as he has done in the past. God is now dealing with individual believers as members of His Body. There is no longer a distinction between the Jew and Gentile. God is dealing with ALL mankind on equal footing.

BigD posted:

You quote Mattew 23:4 above but there is no doubt in my mind that you do not observe Matthew 23:3. You are mixing apples and oranges and not worthy of comment, other then to say you should not do that.

theBook responded:

I do think in context Matt. 23:3, Jesus is talking to those who are born under the administration of the Pharasies, and is instructing them to respect their position and rulings in regards to the Torah, but not to act like them (since they were hipocrytical). The Torah gave them that authority (they were sitting in the seat of Moses).

BigD responds:
Matt. 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: ALL THEREFORE WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOUR OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO; BUT DO NOT YE AFTER THEIR WORKS; FOR THEY SAY AND DO NOT.

It appears that this is a COMMAND by Jesus, for all, at that time, to follow. It was the scribes and Pharisees that sat in the Law givers seat. So, if you believe that the Jesus taught that we must do what Jesus preached in the Gospels, then, you are under the Law and pratice what Jesus COMMANDED.

theBook continues:

However, I was not born under the law- I am a Gentile.  I have now come under the law of God (aka law of Messiah, Torah), but I am not "under the law" (the government of pysical Israel) as Paul refers to it. (1 Cor. 9:19) I am under the King of Israel.  I would not go and get circumcised to place myself "under the law" because the apostles in Acts 15:7-11 advised against it-

BigD responed:
I will respond to Acts 15:7-12 later.

It appears to me that you were like the set aside Gentiles in the OT. Now that you want to serve the true and living God, you like they, have placed yourself under the Laws of Moses. They were "the Laws of God" for the children of Israel. Being Israel, as a nation, is set aside, there is no benefit for anyone to be a "spiritual" Israelite. All unsaved Jews and in the same "set aside boat" as the Gentiles of Genesis 11. All saved Jews and Gentiles today are members of the Body of Christ, and not under the Laws of Moses.

God's instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ are found in Paul's Epistles, NOT the Torah.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!