CLOSING THE TRAP: THE DRAFT

[JudgeNot]

Ebia,
Question:  How do they handle the military in your neck of the woods (or prairie or sand); do you have an all volunteer army?  If you join the army where you live, how long is the commitment?  Can your government ‘recall’ you after you’ve served?

One other question – hasn’t your government now banned swords without a permit because young thugs took to them after the gun ban?  Will this result in an ultimate end of having to break bread instead of slicing it?  

(You can ignore the last few questions – I’m just practicing being an “ugly American”.)  

[ollie]

No, please, lets here what you have to say. Taking into account, of course, exceptions will be made for the handicap and those otherwise unable, some being except, while others being giving jobs for suited to their ability.

I have trouble with my brain accepting the teaching of killing.
I want to be taught and teach the the coming of Christ.

<Rant>
When people are sooo eager to blow one another up, use nukes.
The US army is an extention of commerce; killing iraqis for oil & burgers

The trouble with the US is that they never tasted universal defeat.
Europe has landmarks, scars and even craters of war e-ve-ry-whe-re.

Dunno how large the crater needs to be to school you PPL there.
In Arizona there is a nice one that might fit the need I think...
</Rant>

"The trouble with the US is that they never tasted universal defeat.
Europe has landmarks, scars and even craters of war e-ve-ry-whe-re."

Thank God for America.

[ebia]

Ebia,
Question:  How do they handle the military in your neck of the woods (or prairie or sand); do you have an all volunteer army?  

In England or Australia?

Either way, yes - both are entirely professional + small volunteer armies (+ mercanaries in the British army, in the form of the Gurka regiments).

The UK hasn't used conscripts since Korea I think.  Australia since Vietnam.  Australia didn't even conscript people for the first world war.

If you join the army where you live, how long is the commitment?  Can your government ‘recall’ you after you’ve served?

Don't know to either question.

One other question – hasn’t your government now banned swords without a permit because young thugs took to them after the gun ban?

It's "always" been illegal to carry offensive weapons in the UK - a law that works well despite being necessarly vague.  Guns are pretty much completely banned outside shotguns and gun clubs.  Gun use amongst youths has never been common in the UK.

In Australia guns are similarly effective limited.  Knife laws vary from state to state, but concern carrying them, not use in the home.

[Tibby]

I am not sure how the kids are Down under… I think it would aid more then a few, even for those who do not realize it.

I didn't say few.  I've no idea how many except that it's neither all nor none.

Most go to College for some semester before dropping out. They have no goal for the future, no direction. My best friend also did not pass High School now he is 3rd in his class in the Military. He is one of the many examples. I know people who had no goals and where working in a factory until they joined the military, and it gave them a direction. Is it for everyone? No. But so what. A little physical fitness and discipline never hurt anyone.

Well, I'd say army discipline does hurt many - it is, by necessity, a system designed to get people to follow orders without question, and to be prepared to inflict violence on others.  Neither intrinsically good qualities for decent citizens.  On top of that it is intensely humiliating for those with little physical aptitude, just as school sport is.  Personally I think we should put the minimum number of people through military training that we can possibly manage with.

It is also a huge waste of time for those for whom it isn't right.  Should we force everyone to do first year medical school incase that's right for them.  And force everyone to spend a year painting or writing a novel in case that would improve them, etc, etc.

Normally, when this topic comes up, the idea of Military OR Peace Corp comes up.

What does Peace Corp entail.  (Serious question for those of us outside the US).

Some are in the Military as consensus objectors, medics and such. Here in America, the Air Force handles a lot of the space program, you can join the Air Force, as a non-combatant, in a Space program with little or no relation to War. The Navy does some deep sea exploration. The Coast Guard and National Guard are involved in rescue operations, from storms at sea, natural disasters, etc.

I'd have thought that those would only be able to take a very small number of unskilled conscripts.

I had a reply to each of your comments, but after rereading what I had written, I realized I can sum it up in one sentence: The Military would be greatly changed to accommodate this new addition to the force. On top of that, from what you have said, it sounds very likely that the Military down under is very different from the one here in the US. We train our boys right out of boot camp. They are shipped off and trained in whatever field it make be. Medic, clerical, radar reading, etc. Even the grunts have post-bootcamp training.

No one would be out of shape, because I have the feeling with the knowledge of mandatory boot camp in your future, you would try to stay in shape. Do you realize in America, the obesity problem has been labeled as an epidemic? That’s right. No joking. The media will refer to the over weight problem in America as the “obesity epideictic” with a straight face. Nine weeks of the worlds most hard core fat camp is just what most of these kids need. For some reason Conjunctive heart failure isn’t a good enough reason to stay in shape. Of course, some kids do ahve serous problems that make working out harder. And like I said, they will have other options.

[Requiem]

Tibby,

First of all can you give me a statistic of the "most of college students who drop out in a semester" yeah there's some who do...but I honestly doubt it most...the drop out rate tends to be a  bit exaggerated.

Second, yeah conscripts go through post-bootcamp training. But do you realize how quickly many of those are shipped out into the field, especially during major conflict? A conscript has a MUCH MUCH lower survival rate than a trained or experienced member of the military. They are more likely to panic or not follow orders than a normal soldier from lack of experience.

Third, you talk about gun problems etc. but not everyone trained in the military benefits from the discplinary training and action, further more, when someone is released from duty they do get to keep the firearms they used while in military service. There has been more than one case where shootings have been caused by former Marines, soldiers, etc. Disciplinary action might work for some, but it can have very negative outcomes on others.

What about people whose religious or spiritual beliefs are against warfare or murder? What do you do with people who would have to fight in a war they didn't believe in? They'd be pracitcally useless in the field. I don't agree with fighting, killing, or the war in Iraq. (Just my personal beliefs) And if I was forced to fight, what good would I be? How could they force me to fight in a war I didn't believe in, or kill humans when I simply couldn't live with myself after doing it?

There's alot of reasons that compulsary military service would be a huge mistake. The people who want to be in the military can vounteer or enlist. Everyone has something their good at: Fighting and firing weapons is for some, not all.

[ebia]

I had a reply to each of your comments, but after rereading what I had written, I realized I can sum it up in one sentence: The Military would be greatly changed to accommodate this new addition to the force. On top of that, from what you have said, it sounds very likely that the Military down under is very different from the one here in the US. We train our boys right out of boot camp. They are shipped off and trained in whatever field it make be. Medic, clerical, radar reading, etc. Even the grunts have post-bootcamp training.

I realise that, but you are going to have a heck of a lot of very inexperienced people/grunts to a very small proportion of experienced & highly trained professionals.  In fact, you'll presumably have even less of your professionals 'in the field' doing whatever it is they do, because more of them will be used up in training your conscripts, making the proportions even worse. Does a modern army really have a realistic need for that.

No one would be out of shape, because I have the feeling with the knowledge of mandatory boot camp in your future, you would try to stay in shape.

Never happened before in the days of 'national service'.  But I wasn't particularly talking about fitness, but about 'athletic ability' for lack of a better word.

Do you realize in America, the obesity problem has been labeled as an epidemic? That’s right. No joking. The media will refer to the over weight problem in America as the “obesity epideictic” with a straight face.

Australia, once a highly athletic nation, has virtually caught up in that regard  

Nine weeks of the worlds most hard core fat camp is just what most of these kids need.

You don't cure obesity in 9 weeks.  What you'll do is humiliate those kids, make them feel even worse about themselves, and make the matter worse.  If they loose serious weight in that period, the vast majorit will put it straight back on again - weight loss has to be desired and achieved over a long period to be effective.

Of course, some kids do ahve serous problems that make working out harder. And like I said, they will have other options.

WHere do you draw that line?  What are you going to do for the kids who simply can't run fast/do 100 pullups/climb rope ladders/hit a baseball/etc because they simply aren't athelicly built.  (I'm NOT talking about disabled kids here, or the obese, but kids who simply aren't talented in that area.)  What national service has done in  the past is waste 3 years of their lives giving them hell.

[Tibby]

I realise that, but you are going to have a heck of a lot of very inexperienced people/grunts to a very small proportion of experienced & highly trained professionals.  In fact, you'll presumably have even less of your professionals 'in the field' doing whatever it is they do, because more of them will be used up in training your conscripts, making the proportions even worse. Does a modern army really have a realistic need for that.

You make a good point. It could be argued that this is more for the people themselves the Armed Forces, but I’m not going to open that mess.

Never happened before in the days of 'national service'.  But I wasn't particularly talking about fitness, but about 'athletic ability' for lack of a better word.

The requirement to graduate the Air Force Boot Camp, as told to me by a recent graduate:

Run a mile in 17 minutes in formation
30 push ups (No time limit)
30 sit-ups (no time limit)

Those are the things they have to be able to do by the END of the Air Force (or as they like to call it, the Chair force) Boot camp. No problem. We had these kinds of requirements in Elementary schools in America when I was younger! Anyways, they did a piece of cake obstacle course for a few days, the most combat they learned was to stab a tire with a bayonet, hit it with the butt of the gun, then move on. The did one night of what is basically a military version of spotlight for battle training (flash lights taped to the end of the gun, they didn‘t even bother with paintballs). Even someone with extremely limited Athletic ability can do the Air Force Boot camp, and learn a skill such as Computer Programming in the process.

Australia, once a highly athletic nation, has virtually caught up in that regard  

Ouch, I am sorry to hear that. Do you think it has something to do with the alleged “hole in the Ozone Layer” you have over there? Keeps people from playing football and surfing and such?

You don't cure obesity in 9 weeks.  What you'll do is humiliate those kids, make them feel even worse about themselves, and make the matter worse.  If they loose serious weight in that period, the vast majorit will put it straight back on again - weight loss has to be desired and achieved over a long period to be effective.

It wasn't meant to make them lose weight, just to get them into a health habit they hopefull gain. If not, oh well. But still, weight loss isn't the main goal of boot camp.

WHere do you draw that line?  What are you going to do for the kids who simply can't run fast/do 100 pullups/climb rope ladders/hit a baseball/etc because they simply aren't athelicly built.  (I'm NOT talking about disabled kids here, or the obese, but kids who simply aren't talented in that area.)  What national service has done in  the past is waste 3 years of their lives giving them hell.

What do we do with them? Give them a list of requirements for each boot camp, and let them pick the Air force. That is what we do. Besides, tons of lazy, clumsy, out of shape kids survive boot camp. And then they leave, they come out better for it. My Best Friend in High School Opie in an example. He was skinny, lazy, and barely graduated high school. He is now doing clerical work in the marines. This skinny kid that could not run a mile without stopping survived one of the toughest boot camps the US has to offer, and went on to get 2nd in his class in post-basic training! The only time he was second in high school was when he was 2nd to last! My immature, out of shape, clumsy, goofy best friend is no longer a boy, he is a healthily, hard working man, who, for the first time in his life, has a goal. You are talking like you think people do not have the ability to pass boot camp, they do. Granted, there will be kids who can’t take in mentally or Physically, and that is truly unfortunate, but the vast majority of them can. Also, with the knowledge that they WILL be going through boot camp, we can start preparing them sooner.

[ebia]

You make a good point. It could be argued that this is more for the people themselves the Armed Forces, but I’m not going to open that mess.

If that's the case, then people need to be honest about it.

The requirement to graduate the Air Force Boot Camp, as told to me by a recent graduate:

Run a mile in 17 minutes in formation
30 push ups (No time limit)
30 sit-ups (no time limit)

If this is really what's expected, your armed forces must be far worse than their reputation.  You can walk a mile in 17 mins for crying out load.   If these really are the minimum, and I have to admit I'm sceptical, then the expected surely must be far higher, with a corresponding presure to achieve.  Otherwise the US military would get trounced the first time they encountered anyone skilled enough to hold a gun the right way around.

Anyways, they did a piece of cake obstacle course for a few days, the most combat they learned was to stab a tire with a bayonet, hit it with the butt of the gun, then move on. The did one night of what is basically a military version of spotlight for battle training (flash lights taped to the end of the gun, they didn‘t even bother with paintballs). Even someone with extremely limited Athletic ability can do the Air Force Boot camp, and learn a skill such as Computer Programming in the process.

So, what you are proposing is, essentially, another 3 years (or whatever) of compulsory schooling, except designed by the military instead of educators?  

Ouch, I am sorry to hear that. Do you think it has something to do with the alleged “hole in the Ozone Layer” you have over there? Keeps people from playing football and surfing and such?

I suspect its more to do with watching a lot of TV, eating fast food 'imported' from America, and driving everywhere instead of walking.

It wasn't meant to make them lose weight, just to get them into a health habit they hopefull gain.

If 12 years of sport/PE education at school hasn't achieved that, what makes you think that 9 weeks in boot camp will?

What do we do with them? Give them a list of requirements or each boot camp, and let them pick the Air force. That is what we do. Besides, tons of lazy, clumsy, out of shape kids survive boot camp. And then they leave, they come out better for it. My Best Friend in High School Opie in an example. He was skinny, lazy, and barely graduated high school. He is now doing clerical work in the marines. This skinny kid that could not run a mile without stopping survived one of the toughest boot camps the US has to offer, and went on to get 2nd in his class in post-basic training! The only time he was second in high school was when he was 2nd to last! My immature, out of shape, clumsy, goofy best friend is no longer a boy, he is a healthily, hard working man, who, for the first time in his life, has a goal. You are talking like you think people do not have the ability to pass boot camp, they do. Granted, there will be kids who can’t take in mentally or Physically, and that is truly unfortunate, but the vast majority of them can. Also, with the knowledge that they WILL be going through boot camp, we can start preparing them sooner.

I've no doubt that many will benefit, and that the vast majority will survive, but if you are going to compulsorly take up 3 years (or whatever) of peoples lives you need to demonstrate that almost all will benefit at least as much as they would have if they were allowed to do whatever else they were going to do with that time.

[sincereheart]

The Army physical fitness test~ The standards below are the minimum requirements for a male between the ages of 22-26.
 
Push-ups (2 Minutes) 40  
Sit-ups (2 minutes)    60
2 Mile Run                16:36 mins


The Navy fitness evaluation~The standards below are for a male between the ages of 20-29:

Curl-ups (2 minutes)   40
Push-ups (2 minutes)  29
1.5 Mile Run              13:45 mins

The Marine fitness evaluation~ The standards below are the minimums for a male between the ages of 17-26:
Sit-ups (2 minutes)  40
3 Mile Run               28 minutes


http://www.thesportjournal.org/VOL2NO2/STRONG.HTM

[michael_legna]

No, please, lets here what you have to say. Taking into account, of course, exceptions will be made for the handicap and those otherwise unable, some being except, while others being giving jobs for suited to their ability.

Just my two cents.

I served 6 years US Navy - Vietnam Era vet (though I don't consider myself one as I never was in any danger of seeing action), trained as a reactor operator (one of the top tech jobs in the services.

I hated it, biggest waste of my time - lost the best years of my life.  The time when I most most ready to go on and move into adult learning and maturing were lost to the government and their idea of what a man should be.  Let me tell you the military idea of manhood and what men truly should be are two different things.  Even the so called tech training I recieved was a joke.  Glorified watch standers is all the military turns out.  I learned more Physics and Math in one semester of college than in all the schools I attended in 6 years in the Navy.

I support our men in the service and for the countries good we need them.  But I feel for them, I hear it is different and better now and I hope so, but I doubt it.  

For the countries good - please go and serve.  But, if you have a choice; for your own good, go up in the mountains and eat berries rather than serve in the military, you will get more out of it.  

So I guess I am saying I am against a mandatory "service for all" approach.  Why waste our best and brightest in that form of servitude.

[Tibby]

You make a good point. It could be argued that this is more for the people themselves the Armed Forces, but I’m not going to open that mess.

If that's the case, then people need to be honest about it.

The requirement to graduate the Air Force Boot Camp, as told to me by a recent graduate:

Run a mile in 17 minutes in formation
30 push ups (No time limit)
30 sit-ups (no time limit)

If this is really what's expected, your armed forces must be far worse than their reputation.  You can walk a mile in 17 mins for crying out load.   If these really are the minimum, and I have to admit I'm sceptical, then the expected surely must be far higher, with a corresponding presure to achieve.  Otherwise the US military would get trounced the first time they encountered anyone skilled enough to hold a gun the right way around.

Nah, just the Air Force. No one entering the Air Force is going to "encounter anyone skilled enough to hold a gun the right way around." The ones that will, such as Pararescue and Pilots, go through rigorous training. The Pararescue train in with special forces, and the Pilots are Officers, they don't go through the same boot camp I listed above.

So, what you are proposing is, essentially, another 3 years (or whatever) of compulsory schooling, except designed by the military instead of educators?  

In a way, yes. In reference to computer programming, it doesn't take 3 years to train. Someone can learn it in a few week, and be writing programs for the military in no time. You learn a skill, and perform the skill for the military for a specified number of years.

If 12 years of sport/PE education at school hasn't achieved that, what makes you think that 9 weeks in boot camp will?

The apathy of the PE Coaches vs. the Drill Sergeants makes me think that.

I've no doubt that many will benefit, and that the vast majority will survive, but if you are going to compulsorly take up 3 years (or whatever) of peoples lives you need to demonstrate that almost all will benefit at least as much as they would have if they were allowed to do whatever else they were going to do with that time.

Well, how can I put this... why? This is compulsorily military service. Why do they even HAVE to get a benefit? If they are smart enough to do something that benefits them, good for them, if not, oh well. They can still take a few hours of college courses while in the Forces, paid for by the forces, as they do now, if they so choose. It is up to the individual to take advantage of this situation or not.

[ebia]

In a way, yes. In reference to computer programming, it doesn't take 3 years to train. Someone can learn it in a few week, and be writing programs for the military in no time. You learn a skill, and perform the skill for the military for a specified number of years.

For who's benefit?  If the training is small, it's not for the individuals benefit, and we've established above that it doesn't look like the military get much out of it.  You only need so many unskilled computer programmers in a team.

If 12 years of sport/PE education at school hasn't achieved that, what makes you think that 9 weeks in boot camp will?

The apathy of the PE Coaches vs. the Drill Sergeants makes me think that.

Yeh - Drill Sergeants can use techniques that school teachers can't because they contravene all ideas about the rights of an individual not to be humiliated etc.   But that isn't going to build a love of exercise.

I've no doubt that many will benefit, and that the vast majority will survive, but if you are going to compulsorly take up 3 years (or whatever) of peoples lives you need to demonstrate that almost all will benefit at least as much as they would have if they were allowed to do whatever else they were going to do with that time.

Well, how can I put this... why? This is compulsorily military service. Why do they even HAVE to get a benefit?

Because that was your justification for doing it.  If you are going to force people to give up three years of their life, then someone better be getting something out of it, other than drill sergents getting their fix for their power addiction.

[Tibby]

For who's benefit?  If the training is small, it's not for the individuals benefit, and we've established above that it doesn't look like the military get much out of it.  You only need so many unskilled computer programmers in a team.

You have done little programming, I see. Little training is required. But with the basic knowledge of HTML or C++, you can make s decent amount of cash in the real world, with little or no training. Many High School Students here in America know at least one Programming Language. Many high schools at least offer a basic HTML course. Just because the training is small does not necessarily mean the training is not beneficial. No, there isn’t a need for a great many Computer programmers. But the Computer programming example is just that, an example. There and many other similar careers to choose from. Computer Technicians, both software and hardware. Networking. And the jobs are not limited to Computers. Medics are nothing more then Paramedics. Personal Trainers are in the Army. Nurses (a very popular job here in America). Clerical work is always needed in most any aspect. Police officers. The list goes on and on. So many jobs that require only a little training, but are of the utmost importance.

Yeh - Drill Sergeants can use techniques that school teachers can't because they contravene all ideas about the rights of an individual not to be humiliated etc.   But that isn't going to build a love of exercise.

Those who can’t, teach. And those who can’t teach, Coach. I hardly ever broke a sweat in the PE here in America. The reason I never developed a love for it is because I was not exposed to it very much. I got more of a work out trying to get to class on time.

Because that was your justification for doing it.  If you are going to force people to give up three years of their life, then someone better be getting something out of it, other than drill sergents getting their fix for their power addiction.

One of my justifications. The Armed forces would also find such a law useful at times. If they do take the attitude that they are gives up 3 years, then of course there will be no help. As I said before, it is up to the individual to take advantage of this situation or not.

[ollie]

You make a good point. It could be argued that this is more for the people themselves the Armed Forces, but I&#8217;m not going to open that mess.

If that's the case, then people need to be honest about it.

The requirement to graduate the Air Force Boot Camp, as told to me by a recent graduate:

Run a mile in 17 minutes in formation
30 push ups (No time limit)
30 sit-ups (no time limit)

If this is really what's expected, your armed forces must be far worse than their reputation.  You can walk a mile in 17 mins for crying out load.   If these really are the minimum, and I have to admit I'm sceptical, then the expected surely must be far higher, with a corresponding presure to achieve.  Otherwise the US military would get trounced the first time they encountered anyone skilled enough to hold a gun the right way around.

Nah, just the Air Force. No one entering the Air Force is going to "encounter anyone skilled enough to hold a gun the right way around." The ones that will, such as Pararescue and Pilots, go through rigorous training. The Pararescue train in with special forces, and the Pilots are Officers, they don't go through the same boot camp I listed above.

So, what you are proposing is, essentially, another 3 years (or whatever) of compulsory schooling, except designed by the military instead of educators?  

In a way, yes. In reference to computer programming, it doesn't take 3 years to train. Someone can learn it in a few week, and be writing programs for the military in no time. You learn a skill, and perform the skill for the military for a specified number of years.

If 12 years of sport/PE education at school hasn't achieved that, what makes you think that 9 weeks in boot camp will?

The apathy of the PE Coaches vs. the Drill Sergeants makes me think that.

I've no doubt that many will benefit, and that the vast majority will survive, but if you are going to compulsorly take up 3 years (or whatever) of peoples lives you need to demonstrate that almost all will benefit at least as much as they would have if they were allowed to do whatever else they were going to do with that time.

Well, how can I put this... why? This is compulsorily military service. Why do they even HAVE to get a benefit? If they are smart enough to do something that benefits them, good for them, if not, oh well. They can still take a few hours of college courses while in the Forces, paid for by the forces, as they do now, if they so choose. It is up to the individual to take advantage of this situation or not.

"Nah, just the Air Force. No one entering the Air Force is going to "encounter anyone skilled enough to hold a gun the right way around"

They are pieces not "guns". The skill and use was learned. However in practicality ammunition was only allowed on the firing range and not in real situations. Thank God for the Army's protection.

[sincereheart]