A Scene at the Great White Throne...Oops!

[Berean_]

Right on, Bunyan! Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough! They want to glorify themselves as the way to holiness!

You continue to make claims and spread lies about the Catholic Church and never once let it bother your mind that you cannot support these claims with any proof.  All this does is show your ignorance and prejudice which you have obviously learned from others and not from your own study (no matter how much you claim not to follow men).

Please provide a reference from and official teaching source of the Catholic Church that says "Catholics don't believe Christ's death is enough!"  You can't provide one because one does not exist.  This is a strawman made up by those who hate Catholics in order to more easily attack them.  The truth is that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a gift made available only through the sacrifice of Christ.

The following are paragraphs for the Catechism which say just that:

15 The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two).

124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament" which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).

_______________________________________________

By the way you posted this above, take a good look:

15 The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two).

This is not just faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because of His shed blood for salvation. Salvation according to Rome is in the sacraments and actions of the church's liturgy. Without that...you are lost if you believe in Roman Catholisim.

Then there is Purgatory...maybe for millions of years...in firey flames of torture according to Rome...to take care of the sins that Jesus could never, ever purify you of or take from you. Read this please...Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

If it weren't for Purgatory...you would never make it to heaven...as your faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to save you from your sins says Rome. Jesus Christ says otherwise...

Let's say you are a good-hearted Catholic, and you do all the things required of your church throughout life. You regularly attend Mass, you work hard to maintain sanctifying grace in your soul by being faithful, and you confess your sins to a priest when you do wrong. You are always careful to participate in the sacrament of penance after committing what you think may be a mortal sin. You do all this AND MORE, in keeping with what your church tells you. When you die, you will likely STILL have to go to purgatory before being granted entrance into heaven. Throughout one's lifetime one could attend over a thousand Masses, and STILL die not fully purified from sin. Protestants respond that this hardly seems like the "good news" of the gospel (Ephesians 2:8-9). The doctrine of purgatory is an outgrowth of the insufficient Roman Catholic view of justification. Since only perfectly righteous people get into heaven, and since in the Roman Catholic view of justification one IS NOT absolutely and once-for-all declared righteous by God, then somehow one must BECOME perfectly righteous before entrance into heaven is granted. This happens via purgatory (among other things). From a scriptural perspective, when Jesus died on the cross He said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption AT THE CROSS. No purgatory is needed for those who trust in Christ. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by COMPLETING the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4). First John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We are cleansed not by some alleged fire of purgatory but by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus "Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2). It is through Jesus' work on the cross that we are made righteous (2 Corinthians 5:21). The apostle Paul spoke of his life as "not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Philippians 3:7-9). It is through this wonderful work of Christ on the cross that believers are "blameless," and hence are in no need of some alleged purgatory (Jude 1:24; see also Ephesians 1:4). A key verse you will want to share with the Roman Catholic is Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are sanctified." In other words, no further purging is necessary because Christ has perfected "for all time" those who have believed in Him. THAT WHICH IS ALREADY PERFECT "FOR ALL TIME" NEEDS NO FURTHER PURGING. There is no need for purgatory for those who have truly trusted in Christ as Savior.

[Heidi]

Good post, Berean! I have quoted contradictions between  Jesus's words and the catholic doctrine many times, yet am told I have not. Since satan is the father of lies, this does not surprise me. Say, are you the Berean who writes the "Berean Call"?

[Aussie Mum]

My last post came out very small print...don't know what I did wrong...so I will post again.  

This is from the Council of Trent...I know you know what that is. Can't get much more authoratative than that for the RCC.  I think the first one takes care of your statement ...I didn't have to go to the second one. There is so much in Catholicism that isn't Scriptual. I really hope you will look at God's Word and use that as your measuring stick for truth. Paul has the doctrine for the Body of Christ today.

Canon 4. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification,2 though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.



Canon 5. If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation,13 let him be anathema.

Hi Berean,

I cannot se the above canon stating that Jesus death is not enough.  How do you believe it is saying this?

Cheers
Therese

[blainefabin]

By the way you posted this above, take a good look:

15 The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two

This is not just faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because of His shed blood for salvation. Salvation according to Rome is in the sacraments and actions of the church's liturgy. Without that...you are lost if you believe in Roman Catholisim.

it absolutely is faith in jesus christ. what you don't understand aparently about the sacraments is that these are all grace gifts to the church. we cannot boast about the eucharist or baptism when the only reason we do them is because christ provided such things by his death and resurrection.

Then there is Purgatory...maybe for millions of years...in firey flames of torture according to Rome...to take care of the sins that Jesus could never, ever purify you of or take from you. Read this please...Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

actually according to rome purgatory doesn't forgive sins at all. you need to get your facts straight before you start making these ridiculous statements.

If it weren't for Purgatory...you would never make it to heaven...as your faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to save you from your sins says Rome. Jesus Christ says otherwise...

not true. if it weren't for jesus christ you wouldn't even make it to purgatory. again get your facts straight. purgatory doesn't save from sin. it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

Let's say you are a good-hearted Catholic, and you do all the things required of your church throughout life. You regularly attend Mass, you work hard to maintain sanctifying grace in your soul by being faithful, and you confess your sins to a priest when you do wrong. You are always careful to participate in the sacrament of penance after committing what you think may be a mortal sin. You do all this AND MORE, in keeping with what your church tells you. When you die, you will likely STILL have to go to purgatory before being granted entrance into heaven.

not true. a person is to be judged by god and god alone, there is not likely about it. if you need it you need it if not then you don't. if you properly understand the doctrine i think you will understand what paul means when he says "he will still be saved as through fire"

Throughout one's lifetime one could attend over a thousand Masses, and STILL die not fully purified from sin. Protestants respond that this hardly seems like the "good news" of the gospel (Ephesians 2:8-9). The doctrine of purgatory is an outgrowth of the insufficient Roman Catholic view of justification. Since only perfectly righteous people get into heaven, and since in the Roman Catholic view of justification one IS NOT absolutely and once-for-all declared righteous by God, then somehow one must BECOME perfectly righteous before entrance into heaven is granted. This happens via purgatory (among other things). From a scriptural perspective, when Jesus died on the cross He said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption AT THE CROSS. No purgatory is needed for those who trust in Christ. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by COMPLETING the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4). First John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We are cleansed not by some alleged fire of purgatory but by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus "Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2). It is through Jesus' work on the cross that we are made righteous (2 Corinthians 5:21). The apostle Paul spoke of his life as "not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Philippians 3:7-9). It is through this wonderful work of Christ on the cross that believers are "blameless," and hence are in no need of some alleged purgatory (Jude 1:24; see also Ephesians 1:4). A key verse you will want to share with the Roman Catholic is Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are sanctified." In other words, no further purging is necessary because Christ has perfected "for all time" those who have believed in Him. THAT WHICH IS ALREADY PERFECT "FOR ALL TIME" NEEDS NO FURTHER PURGING. There is no need for purgatory for those who have truly trusted in Christ as Savior.

 

Col 1:24   Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

why is paul saying christs afflictions were not enough?

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  

apparently that which has been perfected for all time may find that perfecting through the grace of purgatory.


mike

[Heidi]

Where does the bible talk about purgatory?

Jesus said; "the work of God is this; that you believe in the one He sent."  That is ALL He said. Good works come from the SPIRIT. That's why they are called THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. According to Christ, we are saved once we are born again of the spirit. All good works are then a result of the spirit instead of trying to gain salvation.  Again, the catholic church disagrees with Christ. Once you understand Christ's words, you will understand the rest of the bible. Without believeing Jesus, one will twist the rest of the bible into anything he wants to believe.

[blainefabin]

Where does the bible talk about purgatory?

Jesus said; "the work of God is this; that you believe in the one He sent."  That is ALL He said. Good works come from the SPIRIT. That's why they are called THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. According to Christ, we are saved once we are born again of the spirit. All good works are then a result of the spirit instead of trying to gain salvation.  Again, the catholic church disagrees with Christ. Once you understand Christ's words, you will understand the rest of the bible. Without believeing Jesus, one will twist the rest of the bible into anything he wants to believe.

wrong
 the catholic church does not disagree with christ, it disagrees with you. stop twisting the word of god to suit your own doctrines.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  
 1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
 1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  

do much for being saved by faith alone.

mike

[Berean_]

Good post, Berean! I have quoted contradictions between  Jesus's words and the catholic doctrine many times, yet am told I have not. Since satan is the father of lies, this does not surprise me. Say, are you the Berean who writes the "Berean Call"?

____________________________________________________

Thank you, and Heidi I love Dave Hunt! No I am not that Berean. But I do recieve "Berean Call" every month. Good publication.

Another great publication is Berean Searchlight...I get that also. Look it up on the web...it is free. It is from Berean Bible Society.

[Heidi]

Blain, you have not explained where the bible said there is a prugatory. If you cannot explain scripture in your own words, that means you don't understand it. Which of God's words did I twist?

[Berean_]

By the way you posted this above, take a good look:

15 The second part of the Catechism explains how God's salvation, accomplished once for all through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is made present in the sacred actions of the Church's liturgy (Section One), especially in the seven sacraments (Section Two

This is not just faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because of His shed blood for salvation. Salvation according to Rome is in the sacraments and actions of the church's liturgy. Without that...you are lost if you believe in Roman Catholisim.

it absolutely is faith in jesus christ. what you don't understand aparently about the sacraments is that these are all grace gifts to the church. we cannot boast about the eucharist or baptism when the only reason we do them is because christ provided such things by his death and resurrection.

You said it yourself, you must "DO THEM". This is not just faith in Jesus Christ. You can argue all day if you like. This is faith plus works. And it is faith FIRST in the Roman Catholic Church...then that you will have the faith to find salvation of Christ in the sacraments of the Church. Without the RCC, none of these sacraments...and it is more than baptism and your eucharist and you know it, there are 7 total...not all 7 are required, but most are. Then we have Purgatory, which comes after a lifetime of many many works and prayers and counting beads. Friends and family members can pay to have masses said...that will cut down on your time in Pugatory some...yes, sacrificing Jesus afresh for your sins on that alter will cut down on your time in Purgatory...but masses must be paid for.

So we see here that more than Christ is needed...First you have to get in the door to even get to Jesus...via the RCC.

It reads salvation is made present in the sacraments. Not what God's Word teaches. Salvation is made present ONLY in believing upon Jesus Christ as Savior and that He shed His blood for your sins. Period...faith. That is faith. Anything more and you have added works.

Then there is Purgatory...maybe for millions of years...in firey flames of torture according to Rome...to take care of the sins that Jesus could never, ever purify you of or take from you. Read this please...Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

actually according to rome purgatory doesn't forgive sins at all. you need to get your facts straight before you start making these ridiculous statements.


Ahh, where did I say Purgatory forgave sins??? Get your facts straight.

If it weren't for Purgatory...you would never make it to heaven...as your faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to save you from your sins says Rome. Jesus Christ says otherwise...

not true. if it weren't for jesus christ you wouldn't even make it to purgatory. again get your facts straight. purgatory doesn't save from sin. it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

According to God's Word we are already sitting in heavenly places IN CHRIST! Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I never said Purgatory saved one from their sins...I said that the Catholic Church said it is to take care of the sins that Jesus could never, ever purify you of or take from you.

If there were a Pugatory...surely Paul would have had something to say about this. But he never, ever, ever did.

Let's say you are a good-hearted Catholic, and you do all the things required of your church throughout life. You regularly attend Mass, you work hard to maintain sanctifying grace in your soul by being faithful, and you confess your sins to a priest when you do wrong. You are always careful to participate in the sacrament of penance after committing what you think may be a mortal sin. You do all this AND MORE, in keeping with what your church tells you. When you die, you will likely STILL have to go to purgatory before being granted entrance into heaven.

not true. a person is to be judged by god and god alone, there is not likely about it. if you need it you need it if not then you don't. if you properly understand the doctrine i think you will understand what paul means when he says "he will still be saved as through fire"

Throughout one's lifetime one could attend over a thousand Masses, and STILL die not fully purified from sin. Protestants respond that this hardly seems like the "good news" of the gospel (Ephesians 2:8-9). The doctrine of purgatory is an outgrowth of the insufficient Roman Catholic view of justification. Since only perfectly righteous people get into heaven, and since in the Roman Catholic view of justification one IS NOT absolutely and once-for-all declared righteous by God, then somehow one must BECOME perfectly righteous before entrance into heaven is granted. This happens via purgatory (among other things). From a scriptural perspective, when Jesus died on the cross He said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption AT THE CROSS. No purgatory is needed for those who trust in Christ. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by COMPLETING the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4). First John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We are cleansed not by some alleged fire of purgatory but by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:14). Jesus "Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2). It is through Jesus' work on the cross that we are made righteous (2 Corinthians 5:21). The apostle Paul spoke of his life as "not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Philippians 3:7-9). It is through this wonderful work of Christ on the cross that believers are "blameless," and hence are in no need of some alleged purgatory (Jude 1:24; see also Ephesians 1:4). A key verse you will want to share with the Roman Catholic is Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are sanctified." In other words, no further purging is necessary because Christ has perfected "for all time" those who have believed in Him. THAT WHICH IS ALREADY PERFECT "FOR ALL TIME" NEEDS NO FURTHER PURGING. There is no need for purgatory for those who have truly trusted in Christ as Savior.

 

Col 1:24   Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

why is paul saying christs afflictions were not enough?

1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  
 1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  
 1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  

apparently that which has been perfected for all time may find that perfecting through the grace of purgatory.


mike

I will get to the rest of this later...I have work to do...

[Berean_]

If it weren't for Purgatory...you would never make it to heaven...as your faith in Jesus Christ is not enough to save you from your sins says Rome. Jesus Christ says otherwise...

not true. if it weren't for jesus christ you wouldn't even make it to purgatory. again get your facts straight. purgatory doesn't save from sin. it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

mike

it purges one of the temporal effects of sins that have already been forgiven.

I forgot to ask you in my above post and I was interested in this statement by you, can you please explain what "the temporal effects of sins " are?

Thanks...

[Heidi]

I still ses no phrase from scripture that says there is a purgatory. All that has been posted is that men have decidced there is a purgatory based on their interpretation of scripture. So far, nothing from scripture itself.

[michael_legna]

Please, Michael, then tell us where Jesus said to call the pope Holy Father and the priests Father. Tell us where he said to pray to Mary, Peter, and Paul. Tell us where he said to surround ourselves with gold and silver statues, (some of them pagan like Apollo which is in the Vatica), line our altars with gold-studded trimmings, parade around in red robes, wear gold-studded head coverings, and carry gold-studded candle-holders. Tell us where he said to make fasting a public event. Tell us where the bible said that Mary bore Jesus no brothers. It is very easy to attack someone's beliefs without backing uo your claims. We have. Now, please support your claims that ours are not scriptural by giving us scripture references for your beliefs. First, start with Christ, because His words are the foundation of Christianity.  

I will if you want to focus on one issue at a time and start by supporting your own claim with scripture and an interpretation so we know what it is you think it means.

So far I have not seen you support any of your claims with such support even though you always demand others do this.

I have asked you to do this repeatedly and you have so far choosen to ignore my requests.  You simply prefer to do a shotgun attack hoping no one can focus on all your points at once so you can get away with shoddy analysis and interpretations.

Pick a topic to do a thorough analysis of state your opinion including your understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches, the scripture you think it contradicts and your interpretation of that scripture and I will do the same.

[Heidi]

I have quoted at least twice when the crowd said to Jesus in Luke, 11:27-28, "Blessed is the mother who gave birth to you and nursed you." Jesus replied; "Blessed rather, are the ones who hear the word of God and obey it." Also in Matthew 12:487-48, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you'. He replied to them; "Who is my mother and who are my brothers? For whoever does the will pf my Father in heaven is my brother, sister, and mother." Jesus makes it clear that His mother is NOT more blessed than the ones who do His will. This passage also shows that Jesus did have blood brothers which contradicts the catholic teaching that Mary was a vrigin all her life. Now, you quote a passage where Jesus says to pray to Mary and that Mary was a virgin all of her life.

[ebia]

I have quoted at least twice when the crowd said to Jesus in Luke, 11:27-28, "Blessed is the mother who gave birth to you and nursed you." Jesus replied; "Blessed rather, are the ones who hear the word of God and obey it." Also in Matthew 12:487-48, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you'. He replied to them; "Who is my mother and who are my brothers? For whoever does the will pf my Father in heaven is my brother, sister, and mother."  [...]
 This passage also shows that Jesus did have blood brothers

No it doesn't.  It has repeatedly pointed out to you that the word translated "brother" here can refer to half-brothers and cousins.

[michael_legna]

I have quoted at least twice when the crowd said to Jesus in Luke, 11:27-28, "Blessed is the mother who gave birth to you and nursed you." Jesus replied; "Blessed rather, are the ones who hear the word of God and obey it."

This is one topic - if this is the one you want to discuss then tell me what you think this verse means.  What is your interpretation of it and why do you think some teaching of the Catholic Church contradicts it.  Then I will respond to your complaints.

Also in Matthew 12:487-48, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you'. He replied to them; "Who is my mother and who are my brothers? For whoever does the will pf my Father in heaven is my brother, sister, and mother." Jesus makes it clear that His mother is NOT more blessed than the ones who do His will.

This is another topic and I will not argue with you in the shotgun approach you use, just so oyu can hope to lose the weakness in your superficial analysis in the numerous intertwined arguments.

This passage also shows that Jesus did have blood brothers which contradicts the catholic teaching that Mary was a vrigin all her life. Now, you quote a passage where Jesus says to pray to Mary and that Mary was a virgin all of her life.

This is a third issue.

I am ready to respond to any of the issues - one at a time - if you provide your interpretation of the verse and what you think the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to what the verses says.

I will not be drawn into your web of multiple tangents and unrelated arguments just so you can hide the lack of depth of your interpretation.

So pick one and stick with it until we see what scripture in its entirety (not just one isolated verses) says about the topic.