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Author Topic: A Scene at the Great White Throne...Oops!  (Read 5985 times)
michael_legna
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« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2004, 08:34:13 AM »


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Please tell me where Jesus said not to call the Pope Holy Father.  

Incredible reasoning  Huh

What about the only time the phrase Holy Father is used is when Jesus is addressing God the Father?

It is when you realize that the Catholic Church does not see scripture as the only source of God's word.  So something has to be more than JUST not in scripture to be wrong it has to actually be contrary to scriptures and since the fact that Holy Father is only used once in scriptures is not the same thing as a prohibition from using it to address God's representative on earth, the the reasoning is sound.

Quote
And Rome sees no problem with calling someone on earth Holy Father?  No one on this earth is holy.  I don't care if it is
just a "title" - that phrase is used by Jesus to address the God of this universe only.   A total disregard for the authority of scripture!  You can fool your people but not us.

Is your problem just that you don't read the Bible?  How else can you explain getting things so wrong.

You claim no one is holy and yet scripture tells us we are all holy.

1 Peter 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

As Webster says - We call a man holy,when his heart is conformed in some degree to the image of God, and his life is regulated by the divine precepts. Hence, holy is used as nearly synonymous with good, pious, godly.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2004, 09:00:01 AM »


PART 1 OF 3

Quote
The gospel is very definitely so simple that even children can understand it. Or aren't you aware of Jesus's words to come to Him as little children, Michael? If you know those words, do you know what they mean?

Yes I do but you don't - they mean we are to become converted and come to Him as innocent and pure as children not as immature in our thinking as children.

1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

If the Gospel was simple as you claim then the Eunuch would not have needed Phillip to explain it to him.

Face it your approach is seriously flawed and you should seek the guidance of someone to feed you milk until you are ready for meat.

Quote
Again, my explanations and QUOTES of Jesus's words are all over this forum.

This is just not true otherwise you would be simple for me to find them and I have looked and it would be equally simple for you to point me to a thread and post that contained the type of analysis I ask of you.  The truth is you don't do the type of deep study needed and your faulty doctrine show it.

Quote
But as Bunyan so aptly put it, i will not get simple answers but instead evasive answers through long discourses which are INTENDED to evade.

Only you and AVBunyan would see deep study of God's word to show yourself approved as an attempt to evade.

2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

END OF PART 1

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michael_legna
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« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2004, 09:04:32 AM »


PART 2 OF 3

Quote

Sorry, but we can see through you. I will begin to take you seriously when you provide quotes from Christ himself supporting your beliefs.

Ok you win it is clear you won't come out from hiding any other way.  Even though I do not know (and cannot know since you do not clearly state your doctrine or support it with interpreted references of scripture) what you disagree with in the doctrines of the Catholic Church I will pick one at random and defend it.

Here are quotes from Christ that show works are required along with faith to properly accept the free gift of salvation.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28  And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?  And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.  And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Mat 25:31-46  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:   And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:   For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:   Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.   Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
   
Mar 10:17-19  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mat 5:19-29  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:18-22  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.  Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Be Humble
Matt 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:9-14  And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
   
END OF PART 2
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michael_legna
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« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2004, 09:06:47 AM »


PART 3 OF 3

Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
Mark 8:35  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 9:24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
   
Luke 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
   
John 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mark 10:28-30  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
   
Matt 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
   
Mark 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Be Baptized
Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now if you have a problem with the doctrine of salvation of the Catholic Church that includes the importance of works as well as faith in the proper acceptance of the free gift of salvation I expect you to offer interpretations of these scriptures that show how they can be made to support your flawed human generated doctrine.

It is time to stop hiding and claiming that you have covered all this before.
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AVBunyan
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« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2004, 12:31:21 PM »

Works, works, works, and more works.

Self-righteous, self-righteous, and more self-righteous works.

Some of you people must be exhausted doing all those vain works.

Man, I'm getting tired just watching all these efforts of self-exaltation. Tongue

I'll rest in Christ, thank you  Roll Eyes
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michael_legna
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« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2004, 12:44:59 PM »


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Works, works, works, and more works.

All directed for us to do by Christ.

Quote
Self-righteous, self-righteous, and more self-righteous works.

Not at all since I don't get my righteousness from myself but from the grace of God.  These works are just my response of loving obedience.

Quote
Some of you people must be exhausted doing all those vain works.

I never get tired of serving the Lord as He has personally directed me to do.

Matt 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Quote
Man, I'm getting tired just watching all these efforts of self-exaltation. Tongue

I'll rest in Christ, thank you  Roll Eyes

It is obvious you didn't even read the verses.  I can't believe you chose to simply ignore the word of God.  I just can't figure out how oyu can hold to your man made doctrine and not have an answer from it in the form of an alternative interpretation of those verses.  But that is just me I want to be able to defend my faith not just hide from anything that might make me think.
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« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2004, 03:17:14 PM »

Good post, Berean! I have quoted contradictions between  Jesus's words and the catholic doctrine many times, yet am told I have not. Since satan is the father of lies, this does not surprise me. Say, are you the Berean who writes the "Berean Call"?

____________________________________________________

Thank you, and Heidi I love Dave Hunt! No I am not that Berean. But I do recieve "Berean Call" every month. Good publication.

Another great publication is Berean Searchlight...I get that also. Look it up on the web...it is free. It is from Berean Bible Society.

I was wondering if he's the berean that I know from Christianity.com?
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« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2004, 03:26:50 PM »

Quote
But if he didn't, then:

1 Corinthians 7:
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

 Huh
Well, they had't read Corinthians had they.

Seriously, though - that's not a problem if it's their mutual discision.  Or, more accurately, their mutual understanding of the will of God.

Oh yeah, I can see it so clearly now!
Joseph and Mary good servants so it is the Lord's will that they never have sexual relations, and certainly never reproduce any offspring.

We know that the Lord would never want His servants to be happy![/color]
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I'm not following a God that's imagined.
Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
-  Who? by Peter Furler and Steve Taylor (Newsboys)
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« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2004, 08:34:58 PM »

Quote
But if he didn't, then:

1 Corinthians 7:
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

 Huh
Well, they had't read Corinthians had they.

Seriously, though - that's not a problem if it's their mutual discision.  Or, more accurately, their mutual understanding of the will of God.

Oh yeah, I can see it so clearly now!
Joseph and Mary good servants so it is the Lord's will that they never have sexual relations, and certainly never reproduce any offspring.

We know that the Lord would never want His servants to be happy![/color]

Hi Justme,

Can you tell me are you saying that it is impossible to be happy without having sex?
Happiness  comes from serving God and doing all he wants us to do, not from some act that satisfies the flesh.

God bless
Therese
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« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2004, 11:42:58 PM »

Quote
But if he didn't, then:

1 Corinthians 7:
3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

 Huh
Well, they had't read Corinthians had they.

Seriously, though - that's not a problem if it's their mutual discision.  Or, more accurately, their mutual understanding of the will of God.

Oh yeah, I can see it so clearly now!
Joseph and Mary good servants so it is the Lord's will that they never have sexual relations, and certainly never reproduce any offspring.

We know that the Lord would never want His servants to be happy![/color]

Hi Justme,

Can you tell me are you saying that it is impossible to be happy without having sex?
Happiness  comes from serving God and doing all he wants us to do, not from some act that satisfies the flesh.

God bless
Therese

I never said that one couldn't be happy and be celibate. In fact, I know that unmarried people will be happier if they stay celibate.

However, God created sex for marriage.
I have serious doubts that He intended for any married couple to live a life of celibacy.  
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Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
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« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2004, 01:40:30 AM »

Quote


I never said that one couldn't be happy and be celibate. In fact, I know that unmarried people will be happier if they stay celibate.

However, God created sex for marriage.
I have serious doubts that He intended for any married couple to live a life of celibacy.  


i agree with you for the most part, but if there is an exception it may be that mary and joseph are it. i understand the problem this creates especially in our day and age when it is common to have sex even before marriage, but the other end of it is that there is no history of mary actually having intercourse at all after the birth of jesus. in fact we find just the opposite in the early writings of christian leaders.

mike
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« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2004, 10:49:59 AM »

Okay, we've passed ignorance and moved into the realm of stupidity, but coming from the sources, i guess we take it w/ a grain of salt.

  Grin
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« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2004, 05:31:53 AM »

Works, works, works, and more works.

Self-righteous, self-righteous, and more self-righteous works.

Some of you people must be exhausted doing all those vain works.

Man, I'm getting tired just watching all these efforts of self-exaltation.
Tongue

I'll rest in Christ, thank you  Roll Eyes


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« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2004, 06:43:10 AM »

I'm way to new in Christ and God's word to be joining in a debate such as this one, but I'll throw my milk's worth in.

I was taught, by the very Christians who prayed for my salvation, when I got saved, that I was to confess my sins by my mouth to God the Father. Not to a mere mortal man who says that I'm supposed to call him father. Now, I don't have Scripture quoted to back that up, but I will study. Like I said, I'm new in all of this. I was saved in the year 2000, but fell and fell hard. I have just, not 2 weeks ago, gotten my behind back on the right path.

Also, I want to point this out. I'm not bashing in any way, but I just want you to see what's happening so you can adjust your ways. The Catholics who are involved in this debate seem to be getting very frustrated. This is evidenced by the fact that when you get into a rant and get frustrated, you start to use the "word" god and not the actual "name" God. See the difference? The "word" is just that. A word that specifies a god and not The God. The "name" is a proper noun punctuated accordingly with a capital G to specify that you are talking about God, and not about a god. I'm not sure which catholic it was, but it's there if you want to go back through. I don't, as I just spent the better part of the hour going through this thread.

Getting frustrated shows a lack of either knowledge on the subject, or it shows that what you are debating, you now realize might be wrong! You pick.

Robert
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« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2004, 01:02:39 PM »

Quote


I never said that one couldn't be happy and be celibate. In fact, I know that unmarried people will be happier if they stay celibate.

However, God created sex for marriage.
I have serious doubts that He intended for any married couple to live a life of celibacy.  


i agree with you for the most part, but if there is an exception it may be that mary and joseph are it. i understand the problem this creates especially in our day and age when it is common to have sex even before marriage, but the other end of it is that there is no history of mary actually having intercourse at all after the birth of jesus. in fact we find just the opposite in the early writings of christian leaders.

mike

Actually, I believe James (not the of the twelve) was the brother of Jesus. Also, Matthew 12:46 says," his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him." Now you could say that it said brothers meaning friends, but then what would mother mean? It seems that in order for Jesus to have brothers, then Mary and Joseph must have had sex. I cannot see why anyone would seek to argue the virginity of Mary past Jesus' birth. Take care.

-Aiden-
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