Bush in iraq..good or not?

[JudgeNot]

Jerry Clower for President.
We would be 100 times better off than we are now.
200 times better off than if John "Lurch, Frankenstein, Gomer, They-weren't-medals-only-ribbons, I-don't-drive-an-SUV, give-the-world-to-the-UN" Kerry wins.

We REALLY need the true theocracy...

Jesus Lord - come soon.  AMEN.

[Sapphire W34P0N]

(I once read about a liberal with common sense.  Of course – it was fiction.)

Hahaha. How true.

[Symphony]

MUslim said:  

Hello,
Do you think bush sending troops to iraq to destroy family, houses, lives etc was a good thing to do?  


Symphony:    

A major theme of the Old Testament is how God used the surrounding nations to judge Israel in its recurring obstinance and unbelief.

Today, in view of the current atrocites being committed by our own troops on Iraqii prisoners, God is using the Muslims to "rub our faces in it"--literally, and to show Americans, on worldwide TV and other media, how immoral we are, and what the price to be paid is, when we trifle with the Almighty, since we still refer to him loosely in some of our secular documentation, and since much of America still classifies itself as *Christian*   .

Predictably, and consistant with the Old Testament theme, this hypocracy is only fueling Muslim extremists, and others', hatred of us.  

This is a case of pure textbook judgement, in the same way the hapless Haman was hanged on the very gallows he'd so arrogantly and happily intended for someone else.(book of Ester)

We're having to eat crow now, we've laid our own trap, by failing to expose and rebuke increasing wholesale immorality in our own land, we now literally have our troopers practicing it abroad, for all the world to see.


And it's simply because we have a system, atmosphere and general "dynamic", that says bacially there is no more immorality, there is no more wrong, there is no more "sin".  

It only makes sense that our troopers--representatives of us on foreign soil, would act likewise.  


And the biggest indicator of all of this is, very few if anyone will recognize the connection.

At best, most Americans will simply roam the streets, ringing their hands, saying, "it's not my fault".

Just like the ancient Israelites--arrogant, self-satisfied, indifferent, careless.

[Shammu]

Saddam was bad yes...but bush has done worse..he said he was going to free the people...but now look at iraq..
what has he done? what?
All I was asking was...do you agree with him going there?

No it is not a good thing to do, it is the right thing to do.
It is also apart of prophecy, in the Holy Bible.

[Broken]

A tiny few have smeared the reputation and sacrifice of the many. It's also a horrible thing for the many to bear any punishment or disgrace for something they had no part of. If I were the parent of a young man or woman who gave their life in honor, I would be angry that anyone did something so gross and illegal that it cast a shadow on the honorable service of all.

Its not just those who have already died. Right now, you do not want to be an American and taken prisoner in Iraq. All they're going to think is, if they are going to torture people, they'll get the same back. And the same goes for the UK troops, whether or not those photographs were faked. There is absolutely no way I'd go to Iraq in any capacity in the present conditions, and I pity the people already there - even if they wouldn't dream of hurting an Iraqi prisoner it will be assumed they would torture. And the people aren't that keen on them to begin with...

I understand why they're attacking your defence guy though. The people directly involved must (and presumably will) be prosecuted - in fact I should think their lives will be ruined by what they have done. Considering that they have harmed others, and completely and utterly wrecked what was left of America's reputation abroad, that is fine with me. But their superiors must also face something of the rap for this - for allowing conditions to flourish where it could happen, where people could not report what was happening, where it could not have been stopped.

And frankly, President Bush has come out of this badly. The fact that he only bothered to apologise when the media found out - is disgraceful. It makes it look - true or not - that he only cares if it might possibly impact his chances in your elections, and that that was the reason he apologised, not because he actually cared. He should also give his scriptwriter the sack, that was a very weird apology he gave, they should have toned up his words an awful lot, it would have meant more.

There is something curious about this though. The female soldier who was pictured - well her family, her mother and her sister have been on the news over here in the UK quite a lot, saying that the photo was either staged, faked or she was forced to do as she did. But apparently the US networks are saying that her family have left the country, gone on a holiday or something and cannot be contacted. No idea why that should be, that we are getting news you're not. (I only heard about it because my dad was in Texas last week).

JudgeNot,

If you wish to be nationalistic about it, may I tell you that we do have concern about the state of our prison system, that we have regular reports and a visiting society - much like the Red Cross - who visit prisoners in an attempt to stamp out the sexual abuse which continues at prisons, and to improve conditions. Psychological and psychiatric help is always available - and I am sure you would be pleased to note that prison chaplaincy is a fast-growing area of Christian ministry.

The blame for some of the events in Iraq is being placed on your prison system, apparently one of the soldiers was a prison guard at a notorious American prison.

[Sapphire W34P0N]

It is also apart of prophecy, in the Holy Bible.

*Sigh.*

No, it's not.

[Tibby]

Torture, Broken? Torture? PLEASE! Being hung on a cross, that is torture. Being stretched across a rack, that is torture. Cutting finger off, that is torture. Making POWs pile up, not torture. Take pictures of POWs without clothing on, not torture. It those pictures are your idea of "torture" then you need to really think about it. Painful, uncomfortable, yes. But if everything that was painful and uncomfortable was labeled as torture...

The people directly involved will be prosecuted and their lives will be ruined. Military prisons, you sit in the hot sun all day, breaking large boulders into gravel. And after you serve your time, you are then dishonorably discharged, making it next to impossible to get a job, being an ex-con who was dishonorably discharged, with little or no marketable skills. Yeah, looks like dreams really do come true. Just wishing on that star, Broken, maybe America will fall soon, too.

[Sapphire W34P0N]

And frankly, President Bush has come out of this badly. The fact that he only bothered to apologise when the media found out - is disgraceful. It makes it look - true or not - that he only cares if it might possibly impact his chances in your elections, and that that was the reason he apologised, not because he actually cared.

Ahem. U-2 incident, anybody?

[Broken]

Torture, Broken? Torture? PLEASE! Being hung on a cross, that is torture. Being stretched across a rack, that is torture. Cutting finger off, that is torture. Making POWs pile up, not torture.

Being forced to commit sexual acts? Not torture?

Take pictures of POWs without clothing on, not torture.

Humiliation of that sort is defined as torture.

Just wishing on that star, Broken, maybe America will fall soon, too.

Ah, I see, it is acceptable to you for your soldiers to behave in such ways.

Dear me, Tibby, it is people like yourself who are giving America an incredibly bad name across Europe and the Middle East.

[Tibby]

Torture, Broken? Torture? PLEASE! Being hung on a cross, that is torture. Being stretched across a rack, that is torture. Cutting finger off, that is torture. Making POWs pile up, not torture.

Being forced to commit sexual acts? Not torture?

No. Not good, but not torture. And even if it is well... so what? Why are the we only country that has to abide by the Geneva Convention? No one gets upset about other country torturing Americans, with there Government supporting it, but when a set rogue solders mock a few POWs, and the Government frouns on it, we get hammered by every pansy Nation in the World.

Take pictures of POWs without clothing on, not torture.

Humiliation of that sort is defined as torture.

By who? Who defined torture as humilation? Fred Savage?  

Just wishing on that star, Broken, maybe America will fall soon, too.

Ah, I see, it is acceptable to you for your soldiers to behave in such ways.

Said who? Not me.

Dear me, Tibby, it is people like yourself who are giving America an incredibly bad name across Europe and the Middle East.

Well, what can I say, we are the strongest country in the world. We have States larger then most countries. It is to bad you don’t like us, but, well, honestly, there is nothing you can do about it. If you feel so strongly about it, boycott us. Oh wait, most counties are dependent on trade with America, aren’t that? Whine all you want, none of these countries are going to do a thing about it.

[Broken]

No. Not good, but not torture. And even if it is well... so what? Why are the we only country that has to abide by the Geneva Convention?

If you want to continue taking the moral high ground that America so likes to take, yes. And no, America is not the only country who abides by it.

[quote[No one gets upset about other country torturing Americans, with there Government supporting it, but when a set rogue solders mock a few POWs, and the Government frouns on it, we get our balls busted by every pansy Nation in the World.

Ah only pansys do not torture people? If pansys do not torture enemy soldiers then presumably you think the arabs who will, no doubt torture American soldiers are real MEN and just great.

By who? Who defined torture as humilation? Fred Savage?  

By your own country.

Said who? Not me.

You're certainly giving a good impression of condoning it.

Well, what can I say, we are the strongest country in the world. We have States larger then most countries.

And few people.

It is to bad you don’t like us, but, well, honestly, there is nothing you can do about it. If you feel so strongly about it, boycott us.

So let me see, you're saying, we can torture foreigners because we are strong, might makes right, let foreign nations we once swore to protect now bow down before the American super-race!. Thats disgusting. That is also against everything that has ever been good in America.

And that is the mentality that led to these atrocities in the first place, the hidebound, insular, ignorant mentality of small-town ill-educated people. And there was I feeling sorry for such people, thinking they must be poor, ill-educated, treat badly by their own government - and then I see it in you.

Whine all you want, none of these countries are going to do a thing about it.

It is fortunate that I know that most Americans are decent people who do NOT condone torture of other people.

We stood up against Hitler, we can do so against America if it ever turns into the tyrannical, evil, immoral nation you seem to wish it will be.

[Tibby]

No. Not good, but not torture. And even if it is well... so what? Why are the we only country that has to abide by the Geneva Convention?

If you want to continue taking the moral high ground that America so likes to take, yes. And no, America is not the only country who abides by it.

No one gets upset about other country torturing Americans, with there Government supporting it, but when a set rogue solders mock a few POWs, and the Government frouns on it, we get hammered by every pansy Nation in the World.

Ah only pansys do not torture people? If pansys do not torture enemy soldiers then presumably you think the arabs who will, no doubt torture American soldiers are real MEN and just great.

No one very said the pansies don't. Everyone does. The pansies hide behind the Geneva Convetion when it fits them, and ignore it when it doesn't.

By who? Who defined torture as humilation? Fred Savage?  

By your own country.

I'd like to see a citation.

Said who? Not me.

You're certainly giving a good impression of condoning it.

You seem to be the only person who feels that way.

Well, what can I say, we are the strongest country in the world. We have States larger then most countries.

And few people

Um, yeah...

It is to bad you don’t like us, but, well, honestly, there is nothing you can do about it. If you feel so strongly about it, boycott us.

So let me see, you're saying, we can torture foreigners because we are strong, might makes right, let foreign nations we once swore to protect now bow down before the American super-race!.

No, I am not. Read my posts before you attack me. In fact, try to avoid attacking me at all. Get your emotions under controll. I'm saying, if you don't like us, you have every right to boycott. If you are going to hate us, then don't bask is the benefits you get from us.

Thats disgusting. That is also against everything that has ever been good in America.

And that is the mentality that led to these atrocities in the first place, the hidebound, insular, ignorant mentality of small-town ill-educated people. And there was I feeling sorry for such people, thinking they must be poor, ill-educated, treat badly by their own government - and then I see it in you.

Right...

Whine all you want, none of these countries are going to do a thing about it.

It is fortunate that I know that most Americans are decent people who do NOT condone torture of other people.

We stood up against Hitler,

You were losing to Hitler untill America came in, as I recall.

we can do so against America if it ever turns into the tyrannical, evil, immoral nation you seem to wish it will be.

Stop placing words in my mouth. If you would like to debate maturely, fine, but do not put words in my mouth.


In short, if you don't like us, then boycott. Whining without actions, that does nothing.

[Broken]

No one very said the pansies don't. Everyone does. The pansies hide behind the Geneva Convetion when it fits them, and ignore it when it doesn't.

So, every nation always tortures enemy prisoners? It is a natural thing, we should accept the torture of others as a normal human instinct, and never ever put in place laws against the torture of other human beings. Right.

I'd like to see a citation.

You have a Constitution, perhaps you should read it sometime.

You seem to be the only person who feels that way.

It is perfectly clear from your posts that you do not think the torture of Iraqi prisoners a terrible thing at all. Presumably a mentality shared by the torturers themselves.

No, I am not. Read my posts before you attack me. In fact, try to avoid attacking me at all. Get your emotions under controll. I'm saying, if you don't like us, you have every right to boycott. If you are going to hate us, then don't bask is the benefits you get from us.

Who said I hated America? You seem to be mistaking my dislike of certain traits of some Americans for all of America. Trouble is, idiots always shout loudest, which is why you get such a bad reputation.  
Your argument appears to be: America is strong, therefore America is right, whatever an American does is right, don't dare oppose us.

Rousseau has a lot to answer for.

You were losing to Hitler untill America came in, as I recall.

Its wonderful, looking at all the American movies rewriting the past to suit their audiences, isn't it?

Next thing we know, people will be saying America came into the war to save the Jews!

Stop placing words in my mouth. If you would like to debate maturely, fine, but do not put words in my mouth.

I am not putting words into your mouth, but following along from what you have said. If you do not like your own conclusions perhaps you should stop holding those ideas.

[Tibby]

No one very said the pansies don't. Everyone does. The pansies hide behind the Geneva Convetion when it fits them, and ignore it when it doesn't.

So, every nation always tortures enemy prisoners? It is a natural thing, we should accept the torture of others as a normal human instinct, and never ever put in place laws against the torture of other human beings. Right.

I'd like to see a citation.

You have a Constitution, perhaps you should read it sometime.

I don’t see a part that says Humiliation is torture. Maybe you should read it.

You seem to be the only person who feels that way.

It is perfectly clear from your posts that you do not think the torture of Iraqi prisoners a terrible thing at all. Presumably a mentality shared by the torturers themselves.

I have yet to see any torture of Iraqi prisoners.  

No, I am not. Read my posts before you attack me. In fact, try to avoid attacking me at all. Get your emotions under controll. I'm saying, if you don't like us, you have every right to boycott. If you are going to hate us, then don't bask is the benefits you get from us.

Who said I hated America? You seem to be mistaking my dislike of certain traits of some Americans for all of America. Trouble is, idiots always shout loudest, which is why you get such a bad reputation.  
Your argument appears to be: America is strong, therefore America is right, whatever an American does is right, don't dare oppose us.

Go ahead, oppose us. I'm all for you opposing us. So, why don't you stop whinging and start opposing?


Rousseau has a lot to answer for.

You were losing to Hitler untill America came in, as I recall.

Its wonderful, looking at all the American movies rewriting the past to suit their audiences, isn't it?

Next thing we know, people will be saying America came into the war to save the Jews!.

Ok, go a head, tell me how it really was, then.

Stop placing words in my mouth. If you would like to debate maturely, fine, but do not put words in my mouth.

I am not putting words into your mouth, but following along from what you have said. If you do not like your own conclusions perhaps you should stop holding those ideas.

[ollie]

Hello,
 Do you think bush sending troops to iraq to destroy family, houses, lives etc was a good thing to do?

a good thing ? no absolutely not. just the right thing to do..
its a good thing al gore wasnt president thank you florida

Thank the Supreme Court.