The church and salvation

[mardis]

Hey everyone!  There is no need to be insulting.  If we cannot be respectful and kind then we need to not participate in this discussion.  We do not have to agree, but we also do not have to be mean (Ephesians 4:15; Jude 3).

The Bible teaches that to be saved a person must:
To be saved we must hear the word - Romans 10:14-17.
To be saved we must believe - John 8:24.
To be saved we must repent of sins - Luke 13:3-5.
To be saved we must confess faith in Jesus - Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:35-38.
To be saved we must be baptized (water immersion) - Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Romans 6:3-4.

Abraham was saved by an active and obedient faith, not by faith only - Genesis 12-15:6; James 2:23-24.

Baptism is done:
   To be saved - Mark 16:16.
   To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
   Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
   Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
   Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
   Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
   Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
   Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Yes, there are many passages that speak concerning the essentaility of belief, but only one speaks about faith only and it says that we are not saved by faith only - James 2:22-24.

There are some passages that speak of repentance but not belief - Luke 13:3-5.  Surely, no one would say we are saved by repentance only, without belief.

There are passages that speak of baptism but not belief and repentanct - Acts 22:16.  Surely, no one would contend that baptism only saves.

There are passages that mention confession and belief, but not repentance and baptism - Romans 10:9-10.

There are passages that mention baptism and repentance, but not belief and confession - Acts 2:38.

Yet, there are many passage that teach that both belief, repentance, confession of faith in Christ, and baptism are all essential to being saved (See scripture citations given above).

These scriptures are evidence enough. They are not difficult.  Anyone with a mind can understand them.  

Let's continue our studies, but let's please not be mean or unkind toward anyone, even those with whom we disagree.

Contact me here or at www.pagestoyou.com for more information.

[mardis]

Also, please do not misuderstand me to be saying that water washes away sins.  Jesus blood is what washes away sins - Hebrews 9:22.  But this does not occur until after we follow God's plan of salvation.

Mardis

[PastorTom]

We cannot obtain forgiveness of sin and righteousness before God by our own merits, works, or satisfactions, but we receive forgiveness of sin and become righteous before God by grace, for Christ's sake, through faith, when we believe that Christ suffered for us and that for his sake our sin is forgiven and righteousness and eternal life are given to us.  For God will regard and reckon this faith as righteousness, as Paul says in Romans 3.21-26 and 4.5.

To obtain such faith God instituted the office of the ministry, that is, provided the Gospel and the sacraments.  Through these, as through means, God gives the Holy Spirit, who works faith, when and where she pleases, in those who hear the Gospel.  And the Gospel teaches that we have a gracious God, not by our own merits but by the merit of Christ, when we believe this.

Such faith should produce good fruits and good works and we must do all such good works as God has commanded, but we should do them for God's sake and not place our trust in them as if thereby to merit favor before God.  For we receive forgiveness of sin and righteousness through faith in Christ, as Christ himself says, "So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, 'We are worthless slaves.'"

One holy Christian church will be and remain forever.  This is the assembly of all believers among whom the Gospel is preached in its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the Gospel.  For it is sufficient for the true unity of the Christian church that the Gospel be preached in conformity with a pure understanding of it and that the sacraments be administered in accordance with the divine Word.  It is not necessary for the true unity of the Christian church that ceremonies, instituted by people, should be observed uniformly in all places.  It is as Paul says in Ephesians 4.4,5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Baptism is necessary and grace is offered through it.  Children, too, should be baptized, for in Baptism they are committed to God and become acceptable to God.

The true body and blood of Christ are really present in the Supper of our Lord under the form of bread and wine and are there distributed and received.

Those who sin after Baptism receive forgiveness of sin whenever they come to repentance, and absolution should not be denied them by the church.  Properly speaking, true repentance is nothing else than to have contrition and sorrow, or terror, on account of sin, and yet at the same time to believe the Gospel and absolution (namely, that sin has been forgiven and grace has been obtained through Christ), and this faith will comfort the heart and again set it at rest.  Amendment of life and the forsaking of sin should then follow, for these must be the fruits of repentance, as John says, "Bear fruit worthy of repentance" (Mt 3..

The sacraments were instituted not only to be signs by which people might be identified outwardly as Christians, but that they are signs and testimonies of God's will toward us for the purpose of awakening and strengthening our faith.  For this reason they require faith, and they are rightly used when they are received in faith and for the purpose of strengthening faith.

Our works cannot reconcile us with God or obtain grace for us, for this happens only through faith, that is, when we believe that our sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who alone is the mediator who reconciles the Father.  Whoever imagines that he can accomplish this by works, or that he can merit grace, despises Christ and seeks his own way to God, contrary to the Gospel.

This teaching about faith is plainly and clearly treated by Paul in many passages, especially in Ephesians 2.8,9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works, so that no one may boast," etc.

Shalom:
PastorTom

[Petro]

Jason, Mardis,

So after saying all you desired to say, you didn't asnwer my question.

What is the work one must do to be saved]/b].

Are either of you able to give an answer??

It satnds to reason that if, you claim one must work to be saved, then you must know what that work encompasess.

Would you please answer my question..

What work must one do to be saved??



And, Mardis,

While you are at it, if water baptism doesn't wash away your sins, What do you mean by;

One must be baptized (water immersed)..

You statement, "Jesus blood is what washes away sins", reflects you believe, that  the washing which is produced by the blood, is what saves, water baptism is after the fact; please explain what you mean..



Petro

[mardis]

Petro,

I apologize for not addressing the question you had asked.  I must have overlooked it.

To begin, I am not really sure what it is you are asking.  Please explain the question of "What is the work one must do to be saved."  I am sorry that I do not understand what you are asking. Maybe if you explained it further I could try to answer this question.

Secondly, concerning your questions of baptism and the blood of Jesus, here is the Bible answer.

To be saved we must hear the word - Romans 10:14-17.
To be saved we must believe - John 8:24.
To be saved we must repent of sins - Luke 13:3-5.
To be saved we must confess faith in Jesus - Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:35-38.
To be saved we must be baptized (water immersion) - Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Romans 6:3-4.

Furthermore:
Baptism is done:
  To be saved - Mark 16:16.
  To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
  Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
  Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
  Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
  Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

The blood of Christ washes away our sins when we believe, repent, confess our faith, and are baptized in water for the remission of sins (Acts 20:28; Mark 16:16).  Not before baptism, but when we are baptized are our sins washed by His blood (Hebrews 5:8-9).

I hope this helps Petro.  Again, maybe if you explained the first question a little more I could try to give a Bible answer for it.  Thank you for your participation in our discussion.

I look forward to hearing from everyone.

Mardis

[Saved_4ever]

Jason, Mardis,

So after saying all you desired to say, you didn't asnwer my question.

What is the work one must do to be saved]/b].

Are either of you able to give an answer??

It satnds to reason that if, you claim one must work to be saved, then you must know what that work encompasess.

Would you please answer my question..

What work must one do to be saved??

When have I EVER said that one must be saved by a "work"?  I'm rather surprised you would say that considering past conversations.  Unless you consider faith to be a work then no work of man can save you.  I'm really not sure why you would think I believe one is saved by works.  

Ye are saved by grace, through faith ,and not of yourselves lest any man should boast.

Physical Baptism and any other such thing to merit salvation would be a work of man.  All I said was that getting Baptized was biblical, it's a statement of profession to the world.  

[mardis]

Saved_4ever:

Where does the Bible say that baptism is "a statement of profession to the world."


To be saved we must hear the word - Romans 10:14-17.
To be saved we must believe - John 8:24.
To be saved we must repent of sins - Luke 13:3-5.
To be saved we must confess faith in Jesus - Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:35-38.
To be saved we must be baptized (water immersion) - Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Romans 6:3-4.

Furthermore:
Baptism is done:
  To be saved - Mark 16:16.
  To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
  Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
  Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
  Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
  Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

The blood of Christ washes away our sins when we believe, repent, confess our faith, and are baptized in water for the remission of sins (Acts 20:28; Mark 16:16).  Not before baptism, but when we are baptized are our sins washed by His blood (Hebrews 5:8-9).

Thanks everyone, and I look forward to our continued studies.

Mardis

[PastorTom]

Baptism is not water only, but it is water used together with God's Word and by his command.

In Matthew 28 our Lord Jesus Christ says:  "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Baptism is a miracle.  It looks so ordinary:  some parents, some sponsors, and a pastor gathered around a bowl to say a few words and splash some water on a baby who either sleeps or screams, unaware of what's happening.  Who'd ever guess there is anything earthshaking or miraculous about that?

But it's just like the God of the promise, to hide themost miraculous event in a simple ceremony.  Baptism is a miracle greater than walking on water.  For in it, with the washing of the water and the pronouncement of his Word, God adopts each of us, takes us into the communion of saints, and gives us a future that not even death and the devil can destroy.

In the sacraments, Christ puts his words together with some common, ordinary earthly things - water, bread, and wine - to give his gifts to us.  This combination, Christ's giving us his Word with something earthly or physical, is what makes it a sacrament.

In Baptism, Christ takes plain, ordinary water that has been drawn from a tap and puts it together with the Word to seal you as his own.  It is as if Christ says, "Here now, with the washing of this water, you know that my Word and decision are for you.  Now you can be certain, for I have washed you in my promise.

The old sinner's favorite attack on Baptism is to ignore the Word and concentrate on the water.  "Water," it sniffs.  "Water!  Whoever heard of such a thing?  You flush your toilets with water and now you say that God uses water to make you certain?  Nonsense!"

If that doesn't work, the old Adam or Eve puts on some religion and tries to explain Baptism away.  "Oh yes," the old you will say, "the water is a nice symbol.  But what really counts is what you do with your Baptism.  If you want to be sure of it, you have to make your Baptism complete by doing what God wants you to do."

Either way, whether by scorning the water or calling it a symbol, the old sinful self makes it sound as if Baptism is "water only."  The it can be ignored as a quaint ceremony for children or taken as something we have to do before getting down to what's really important:  doing good things for Jesus.  It's the same story.  If the old self doesn't ignore the promise completely, it insists on trying to earn what God will only give as a gift.

But "Baptism isnot water only.  It is water used together with God's Word...."  The water and the Word can't be separated, not without losing the sacrament.  Apart from the Word, the water is plain, ordinary water.  Apart from the water, the Word is still God's Word but the sacrament is gone.  The Word and the water go together, the Word telling us what happens in the washing.

"Make disciples of all nations," Jesus said.  How does this happen?  By "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sond and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you" (Mt 28.19-20).  This is Christ's Word, telling us what happens in the washing.  As the Word is spoken, as the water is washed across our heads, Jesus makes us his disciples, his own beloved people.

So, in the speaking of the Word and the washing of the water, Christ gives birth to the new you in each of us, making us members of his church.  Then, after our Baptism, he continues to be with us in the teaching of his Word and the Lord's Supper, sustaining and keeping the new you he has made.  "And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age," he says (Mt 28.20).

That's why Baptism rings and sings with so much certainty.  Where the old sinner in us can manage to separate the water from the Word, the certainty is lost.  But when the Word and the water work together, as Christ promises they do, Baptism is more certain than the sunrise.  For Christ himself is present in the Word, with the water, to make us his very own and give us all the gifts he has to give.

All of the old Adam's attacks on Baptism have the same purpose:  to make it appear that it is something we do for God, not something God does for us.  As a result, people wind up fearing, loving, and trusting in what they do, and Baptism finally doesn't matter.  So unbelievers sneer at Baptism as a magic rite we do so we won't be afraid to die.  Or the super pious ignore Baptism as if God can't do what he promises and concentrate on their own conversions, decisions for Christ, and experiences as far more important.  Either way, Baptism is treated with contempt.

In all of these attacks, the fact that Christ commanded Baptism makes us all the more certain.  It is a friendly command, a loving order Christ gives so that we will know how important Baptism is both to him and to us.  Because he commanded it, we can be sure that Baptism is no human plaything - something invented by people to make us feel better.  And we can be sure, too, that all of the old self's religious strutting about conversions and experiences is just that - strutting and nothing else.

Baptism is God's act for us.  Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes.  God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us.  God keeps right on working, too, "to the end of the age" to be sure we're sure - to keep the new you in the certainty that is Christ's trademark.

[Petro]

Mardis, my question is not a trick question, you said;

mardis reply #10

This is not working to merit salvation, because we cannot merit salvation. However, there is something we must do to receive God's gracious redemptive work. This includes baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Please refer to your answer to reba, I have posted what you stated in reply to her, post.

Specifically refering to your own words, which you wrote where you state;

However, there is something we must do to receive God's gracious redemptive work.

What is that specific something we must do to receivce God's gracious redemptive work



Mardis,     your attention is invited to;

posted byu mardis rely #24  
I am not really sure what it is you are asking. Please explain the question of "What is the work one must do to be saved." I am sorry that I do not understand what you are asking. Maybe if you explained it further I could try to answer this question.

I am curious, what it is you are trying to teach, concerning this??, This is why I ask the question.

Now, concerning Baptism,

You say:

 posted by mardis reply #14

Baptism is essential to being saved (see citations above). The only time the Bible mentions faith alone is in James 2:24 which does more than imply, it specfically states that we are not saved by faith only. We will not be saved unless we obey the Lord (Hebrews 5:8-9). This includes baptism (Mark 16:16).

I agree whole heartedly with what you have stated : "Baptism is essential to being saved."

Since Jesus, himself at Mk 16:16, says:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

My question here at this point you have raised, is, what baptism is in view at this passage of scirpture, the Baptism of water for the remission of sins, which John performed, or....... the one John spoke about, when he said;

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. (Jhn 1:33)

You see, the reason why I ask this is, that many people TODAY, get to themselves, a water immersed type of baptism, and really don't believe anything, especially, when it is performed to them as infants.  

So this outward testimonial (manisfestation) doesn't do anything,according to what Jesus is stating in Mk 16:16;

Since the emphasis on baptism according to Jesus, is "He that believeth", and those that don't believe and are baptized (Water immersed), shall be damned in spite of the fact they where water immersed.

So, please clear this up for us..which Baptism is

"essential".


Thank you,

Petro

[Petro]

Baptism is not water only, but it is water used together with God's Word and by his command.

In Matthew 28 our Lord Jesus Christ says:  "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Baptism is a miracle.  It looks so ordinary:  some parents, some sponsors, and a pastor gathered around a bowl to say a few words and splash some water on a baby who either sleeps or screams, unaware of what's happening.  Who'd ever guess there is anything earthshaking or miraculous about that?

But it's just like the God of the promise, to hide themost miraculous event in a simple ceremony.  Baptism is a miracle greater than walking on water.  For in it, with the washing of the water and the pronouncement of his Word, God adopts each of us, takes us into the communion of saints, and gives us a future that not even death and the devil can destroy.

In the sacraments, Christ puts his words together with some common, ordinary earthly things - water, bread, and wine - to give his gifts to us.  This combination, Christ's giving us his Word with something earthly or physical, is what makes it a sacrament.

In Baptism, Christ takes plain, ordinary water that has been drawn from a tap and puts it together with the Word to seal you as his own.  It is as if Christ says, "Here now, with the washing of this water, you know that my Word and decision are for you.  Now you can be certain, for I have washed you in my promise.

The old sinner's favorite attack on Baptism is to ignore the Word and concentrate on the water.  "Water," it sniffs.  "Water!  Whoever heard of such a thing?  You flush your toilets with water and now you say that God uses water to make you certain?  Nonsense!"

If that doesn't work, the old Adam or Eve puts on some religion and tries to explain Baptism away.  "Oh yes," the old you will say, "the water is a nice symbol.  But what really counts is what you do with your Baptism.  If you want to be sure of it, you have to make your Baptism complete by doing what God wants you to do."

Either way, whether by scorning the water or calling it a symbol, the old sinful self makes it sound as if Baptism is "water only."  The it can be ignored as a quaint ceremony for children or taken as something we have to do before getting down to what's really important:  doing good things for Jesus.  It's the same story.  If the old self doesn't ignore the promise completely, it insists on trying to earn what God will only give as a gift.

But "Baptism isnot water only.  It is water used together with God's Word...."  The water and the Word can't be separated, not without losing the sacrament.  Apart from the Word, the water is plain, ordinary water.  Apart from the water, the Word is still God's Word but the sacrament is gone.  The Word and the water go together, the Word telling us what happens in the washing.

"Make disciples of all nations," Jesus said.  How does this happen?  By "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sond and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you" (Mt 28.19-20).  This is Christ's Word, telling us what happens in the washing.  As the Word is spoken, as the water is washed across our heads, Jesus makes us his disciples, his own beloved people.

So, in the speaking of the Word and the washing of the water, Christ gives birth to the new you in each of us, making us members of his church.  Then, after our Baptism, he continues to be with us in the teaching of his Word and the Lord's Supper, sustaining and keeping the new you he has made.  "And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age," he says (Mt 28.20).

That's why Baptism rings and sings with so much certainty.  Where the old sinner in us can manage to separate the water from the Word, the certainty is lost.  But when the Word and the water work together, as Christ promises they do, Baptism is more certain than the sunrise.  For Christ himself is present in the Word, with the water, to make us his very own and give us all the gifts he has to give.

All of the old Adam's attacks on Baptism have the same purpose:  to make it appear that it is something we do for God, not something God does for us.  As a result, people wind up fearing, loving, and trusting in what they do, and Baptism finally doesn't matter.  So unbelievers sneer at Baptism as a magic rite we do so we won't be afraid to die.  Or the super pious ignore Baptism as if God can't do what he promises and concentrate on their own conversions, decisions for Christ, and experiences as far more important.  Either way, Baptism is treated with contempt.

In all of these attacks, the fact that Christ commanded Baptism makes us all the more certain.  It is a friendly command, a loving order Christ gives so that we will know how important Baptism is both to him and to us.  Because he commanded it, we can be sure that Baptism is no human plaything - something invented by people to make us feel better.  And we can be sure, too, that all of the old self's religious strutting about conversions and experiences is just that - strutting and nothing else.

Baptism is God's act for us.  Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes.  God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us.  God keeps right on working, too, "to the end of the age" to be sure we're sure - to keep the new you in the certainty that is Christ's trademark.

Pastor Tom,

Welcome to the board, I appreaciate your post, and I thinik you have sated what needs to said here, for people to understand clearly.

Accoding to the original post;

In order to be saved, one must be baptized (water immersion).

My understanding of this is not the same, because of these two verses, primarily;


Eph 5
25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This verse is clearly, making a distinction between the sanctifying and cleansing work of the Word of God, in those who are being set apart day by day, the use of the word "water " in this passage of scripture is symbolic, of the Word of God, which came down from heaven, and gives, life, regenerates life, cleanses the land, and refreshes it,  

it is not talking about water batism at all.

Secondly, the next three verses make it even clearer;

Titus 3
5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

1 Pet 3
21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Pet 1
22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

The law, which could never make the hearers of it, perfect, had in it the idead of the necessity of being clean, especially when coming before God, Temple, priests, thus the need for washings, for purification.

And as one can see, the Baptism necessary to be clean before a Holy God, could never be attained thru the external, Titus, makes the case for;

 the..

 "Baptism which is essential for salvation"; and that is the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Water baptism is after, the fact; the Ethiopian Eunuch, asked;
"See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."  (Acts 8:36-37)

Jesus, said to Peter;

But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  (Mat 16:15-16)

I don't argue, that Christians should not be baptized in water, What I question, is the idea that "Water Baptism" is what saves.

The reason for water baptism is, as has been stated, as a testimony to the world,

I am reminded how when Jesus, cleansed the Leper at Mk 1:40-44, and then said this to him;

color=Red]See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.[/color]

Those who are cleansed by the regenerative work of  the Holy Spirit, are baptized with the Holy Spirit, it is a work of God, not of man.

Where am I wrong??

Petro



 

[Petro]

I forgot to state;

What is the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, if not Circumscision of the Heart.  (Deut 30:6)

Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Jason, Mardis,

So after saying all you desired to say, you didn't asnwer my question.

What is the work one must do to be saved]/b].

Are either of you able to give an answer??

It satnds to reason that if, you claim one must work to be saved, then you must know what that work encompasess.

Would you please answer my question..

What work must one do to be saved??

When have I EVER said that one must be saved by a "work"?  I'm rather surprised you would say that considering past conversations.  Unless you consider faith to be a work then no work of man can save you.  I'm really not sure why you would think I believe one is saved by works.  

Ye are saved by grace, through faith ,and not of yourselves lest any man should boast.

Physical Baptism and any other such thing to merit salvation would be a work of man.  All I said was that getting Baptized was biblical, it's a statement of profession to the world.  

Jason,  

For give me, I read your reply #18, and since it followed mine, I assumed you where directing your response to me,  I saw all the verses, which reject work, however, your opening sentence mentioned James 2, that famous verse which everyone uses to prove one must do something to gain salvation.

And since I have asked this question many times, I have yet to get a response.

I see, you don't believe this, my mistake, please accept my apologies.


Blessings,

Petro



My question still stands, to anyone who can answer this, what work must be done in order to be saved??

I have heard this from all kinds of different people who by their own testimoiny are Christians.  And not one has been able to answer this simple question ;  

what work must be done to be saved??


Petro

[mardis]

Petro, I still do not understand what you are asking by asking, "What is the work one must do to be saved?"

Maybe these scriptures will help.

2 Corinthians 7:10, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Hebrews 5:8-9, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

God gracious gift of salvation cannot be merited.  We never deserve salavtion.  However, God does not just go around bestowing salvation upon anyone and everyone regardless if they believe or not, repent or not, and if they are baptized or not.

We have faith in God's work of salvation in our lives when we follow what He has told us to do to receive His gracious gift of salvation.

Colossians 2:11-12, "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

The Bible teaches that to be saved a person must:
To be saved we must hear the word - Romans 10:14-17.
To be saved we must believe - John 8:24.
To be saved we must repent of sins - Luke 13:3-5.
To be saved we must confess faith in Jesus - Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:35-38.
To be saved we must be baptized (water immersion) - Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Romans 6:3-4.

Abraham was saved by an active and obedient faith, not by faith only - Genesis 12-15:6; James 2:23-24.

Baptism is done:
  To be saved - Mark 16:16.
  To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
  Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
  Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
  Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
  Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Babies are not candidates for baptism.  Before one can be baptized he/she must believe and repent (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).  Babies are not capable of either understanding, believing, or repenting, and therefore are not candidates for baptism until they can believe and repent.

Thanks everyone.  This has been a great study, and I look forward to our continued discussions.

[PastorTom]

Petro:

What you call "water Baptism" is just "Baptism" to me.  I don't believe that it is just a "testimony to the world" nor that it is a work of "man."  I said above, "Baptism is God's act for us.  Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes.  God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us."

The Lord Jesus Christ says in Mt 28.19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."  Likewise in Mk 16.16,"The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

These words contain God's commandment and ordinance.  You should not doubt, then, that Baptism is of divine origin, not something devised or invented by people.  It is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved.  We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat.  It is of greatest importance that we regard Baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted.  The world is full of those who proclaim that Baptism is an external thing and that external things are of no use.  But no matter how external it may be, here stand God's Word and command which have instituted, established, and confirmed Baptism.  What God institutes and commands cannot be useless.  It is a most precious thing, even though to all appearances it may not be worth a straw.

To be baptized in God's name is to be baptized not by humans but by God himself.  Although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own act.  From this fact everyone can easily conclude that it is of much greater value than the work of any person or saint.  For what work can people do that is greater than God's work?

Baptism is a very different thing from all other washing, not by virtue of the natural substance but because here something nobler is added.  God himself stakes his honor, his power, and his might on it.  Therefore it is not simply a natural water, but a divine, heavenly, holy, and blessed water - praise it in any other terms you can - all by virtue of the Word, which is a heavenly, holy Word which no one can sufficiently extol, for it contains and conveys all the fullness of God.

To put it most simply, the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of Baptism is to save.  No one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, to "be saved."  To be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil and to enter into the kingdom of Christ and live with him forever.

Some will say that faith alone saves and that works and external things contribute nothing to this end.  It is true, nothing that is in us does it but faith.  But faith must have something to believe - something to which it may cling and upon which it may stand.  Thus faith clings to the water and believes it to be Baptism in which there is sheer salvation and life, not through the water but through its incorporation with God's Word and ordinance and the joining of his name to it.

Some may object, "If Baptism is itself a work, and you say that works are of no use for salvation, what becomes of faith?"  Yes, it is true that our works are of no use for salvation.  Baptism, however, is not our work but God's.  God's works, however, are salutary and necessary for salvation.  Thus you see that Baptism is not a work which we do but is a treasure which God gives us and faith grasps, just as the Lord Christ upon the cross is not a work but a treasure comprehended and offered to us in the Word and received by faith.

In Baptism every Christian has enough to do to believe firmly what Baptism promises and brings - victory over death and the devil, forgiveness of sin, God's grace, the entire Christ, and the Holy Spirit with her gifts.  Here in Baptism there is brought free to every person's door such a priceless gift which swallows up death and saves the lives of all.  No greater jewel can adorn us than Baptism, for through it we obtain perfect holiness and salvation, which no other kind of life and no work on earth can acquire.

[Petro]

Petro, I still do not understand what you are asking by asking, "What is the work one must do to be saved?"

Maybe these scriptures will help.

2 Corinthians 7:10, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Hebrews 5:8-9, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

God gracious gift of salvation cannot be merited.  We never deserve salavtion.  However, God does not just go around bestowing salvation upon anyone and everyone regardless if they believe or not, repent or not, and if they are baptized or not.

We have faith in God's work of salvation in our lives when we follow what He has told us to do to receive His gracious gift of salvation.

Colossians 2:11-12, "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

The Bible teaches that to be saved a person must:
To be saved we must hear the word - Romans 10:14-17.
To be saved we must believe - John 8:24.
To be saved we must repent of sins - Luke 13:3-5.
To be saved we must confess faith in Jesus - Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:35-38.
To be saved we must be baptized (water immersion) - Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Romans 6:3-4.

Abraham was saved by an active and obedient faith, not by faith only - Genesis 12-15:6; James 2:23-24.

Baptism is done:
  To be saved - Mark 16:16.
  To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
  Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
  Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
  Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
  Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Babies are not candidates for baptism.  Before one can be baptized he/she must believe and repent (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).  Babies are not capable of either understanding, believing, or repenting, and therefore are not candidates for baptism until they can believe and repent.

Thanks everyone.  This has been a great study, and I look forward to our continued discussions.

Mardis,

Thanks for clearing this up, I can see, that you really do believe, man is not saved by any work at all he does, that work is done by God, and that water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

I have the same problem sometimes, trying to explain something, and it comes out not sound the way I intended it, and it misleads some..


You just didn't explain it quite right..but, know you have..

Thank You,  
Petro