Is Jesus God? - Part Two

[cowntortoise]

hi pastor rogers,
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Let me extract this from my book.

In biblical language, to be a son of someone or something is to have the character of that someone or something.
Eg. Jn 17:12 (son of perdition); Eph 2:2-3 (sons of disobedience).

Now the term 'son of God' is also used of angels (Job 1:6) and men (Lk 3:38, Rom 8:14). Reason? We are all made in God's image!

In the case of Jesus Christ, He fully manifested the character of Father God.

Regarding son-ship, Jesus is also called:
'The only begotten Son'. Jn 3:16

God has many sons but there is only one He begot. There is no other 'son' that qualifies to be the Savior... So, Jesus is unique!

But what does 'beget' mean?
To beget does not mean 'to give biryh' or 'to create'. That is why in the Nicene Creed, it's clearly stated concerning Christ: 'eternally begotten of the Father... begotten, not made, one in being with the Father..'

Therefore, to be begotten = to be specially related. A begotten son is a specially related son, not a specially created son.

[cowntortoise]

Since I have my book here... let me share this too.

The bible records other witnesses claiming that they too agree that Jesus Christ is God.

1. God the Father Himself.
Matt 3:17 'This is my beloved Son..'
Jn 5:17-18 ' God was His Father, making Himself equal with God'

2. The friends of Jesus.
a) John the Baptist - Jn 1:34
b) Nathanael - Jn 1:49
c) Peter - Jn 1:49
d) John - 1 Jn 5:20
e) Stephen - Acts 7:59

3. The enemies of Jesus.
a)The centurion... the soldier who hung Him on the cross. - Mk 15:39
b) Satan himself! Mt 4:3, Mt 4:6
c) Demons Mk 1:24

[Soldier4Christ]

In biblical language, to be a son of someone or something is to have the character of that someone or something.

I agree totally with this statement. Jesus had the characteristics of God because He is God come to us in the flesh.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Therefore, to be begotten = to be specially related. A begotten son is a specially related son, not a specially created son.

Again I have no problems with this statement. Even a man can have many sons. Ones that he has raised and nurtured and will follow after him, perhaps even taking on his characteristics. But the ones that are his begotten sons are those that are blood of his blood.

Begotten = only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child). to procreate as the father : SIRE, to beget or bring forth offspring


Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is a difficult thing for some to understand because they attempt to use human reasoning, how can Jesus be both the son of God and still be the one and only God at the same time. All things are possible with God, many of these things are beyond the understanding of human reasoning.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Manifest means to show himself to us. So God showed himself to us in the flesh.

Jesus Christ is both the son of God and is the one and only God.

1Jo 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

[cowntortoise]

It is a difficult thing for some to understand because they attempt to use human reasoning, how can Jesus be both the son of God and still be the one and only God at the same time. All things are possible with God, many of these things are beyond the understanding of human reasoning.

Yeah.. There are things that our limited mind can never understand. Even when Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit, the angels in the heavens don't know how to describe it and they called it 'the thing'. Ha ha...

As much as different bible scholars has different views, most of the church today will still believe that Jesus is God, together with Father God and Holy Spirit.

This is an extract of the nicene creed. It was written in the early church years, ard AD 300++. After much intensive debates and disscussion by the council at that time, they finally decided on this:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
  the only Son of God,
  eternally begotten of the Father,
  God from God, Light from Light,
  true God from true God,
  begotten, not made,
  of one Being with the Father.
  Through him all things were made.
  For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
  by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
  For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
      in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
      and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
  He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

[Shammu]

Jury, there's no debating the truth. Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Resting in the arms, of Jesus.
Bob

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I was just reflecting on this thread and giving thanks that we don't place our faith in JUST A MAN. All of us know about the failures, sins, and hypocrisy of man.

We place our faith in JESUS CHRIST, Very God, the CREATOR, and HE never fails or sins. HE freely took our place on the Cross and suffered the punishment that we deserve. JESUS did die on that Cross, but HE arose from the dead on the third day and is our LIVING Lord and Saviour forever. Very GOD humbled Himself and took the form of a man and died on the Cross to rescue us from the curse of sin and death. There is no greater LOVE than that. I'm not worthy at all for HIS Love, but HIS Blood on the Cross made me worthy to pray for forgiveness of sins and ask HIM to be the LORD over my life. NOW, I belong to JESUS! Every time I think about that, it makes me want to sing:

Thank you LORD for saving my soul,
Thank you LORD for making me whole.

We can't expect to understand even the beginning of HIS MIGHT AND MAJESTY with our little human brains. I give thanks that GOD made Salvation easy enough for a child to understand. In fact, HE wants us to come to him with a childlike faith. Those of us who belong to JESUS are the richest people on this earth.

There are many people on this earth who believe in a Jesus that was just a man, just a prophet, just a teacher, or just anything other than very GOD. Many so-called religions would fit into this category, one being Islam. These people are LOST, and every Christian should feel a heavy burden to share the GOOD NEWS with them and pray for them.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:16-17 NASB  However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Ephesians 2:19-22 NASB  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

[cowntortoise]

Amen!

Hey, want to discuss on the Fatherhood of God? I believe it'll bring us closer to Him.

[aribeth]

as i believe jesus was the son of god who god put on earth  to one day sacrifice his own son so that we all mankind can be saved and have the chance to go to heaven when we repent our sins and ask for forgiveness.

jesus who loved and served his father and loved all of us did what he was ment to do.

this is what i was taught in the baptist ways. i was baptized luthren when i was real young but now i am married into a family who is baptist and i started believing in their ways since i never went to luthren churches very much.


god loved us so much that instead of sacrificing animals all the time he chose to bring a son on earth so people wouldn't have to sacrifice animals so much so jesus came into the world so we could all be saved and no more animals would have to be killed all the time.


thats what i was taught.

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi again Jessica,

You are right that Jesus was the son of God. He is also very God. Mainline Baptist do believe in the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, these three are one.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Please take the time to read the rest of this thread and the one that goes with it, part one. There are many wonderful verses given that show this truth to us.

[GKB]

PRAISE THE LORD PEOPLE OF GOD!

      JUST WANTED TO REPLY QUICKLY TO SIXPACK, AND I TRUELY HOPE HE READS THIS OR THAT IT IS AT LEAST POSTED.
      SIXPACK, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD. I HAVE A BIT OF NEWS THAT CAN BE BAD NEWS FOR YOU IF YOU DON'T CATCH ON QUICK. I WILL TRY TO KEEP THIS AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE.....I'M AFRAID I MAY HAVE DONE TO MUCH TYPING ALREADY!
      THE BAD NEWS IS THAT THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS IS FOOLISHNESS TO THOSE WHO ARE NONE OF HIS! I KNOW YOU HAVE DONE GREAT STUDIES AND YOU CAN BREAK DOWN THE LANGUAGE OF THE TIMES AND ETC., BUT I NEED TO WARN YOU, SO COULD THE PHARISEES AND SADUCEES. JESUS TOLD THEM THAT THERE FATHER IS THE DEVIL, OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TROUBLE BELIEVEING HIM....WHOOO!
       YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE STUDIES, BUT DO YOU HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT? GOD'S BUISNESS IS KEPT FROM THOSE WHO ARE NONE OF HIS, THATS WHY HE SPOKE IN PARABLES.
        WE REALLY MUST GET BACK TO THE BASICS....IN ALL YOUR GETTING, YOU KNOW, THE STUDYING...LEARNING...FIGURING...LOGIC, IN ALL THY GETTING, GET UNDERSTANDING.
        TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO MAY BE READING THIS AND GOING BACK IN FORTH IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING, FIRST LET ME WARN YOU TO NOT BE BLOWN AWAY BY EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, SEEK FOR YOURSELF. SECONDLY, LET ME GIVE YOU TO KNOW, THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD WHO ARE TREMENDOUSLY INTELLIGENT. THEY ARE TREMENDOUS WITH NUMBERS, THEY ARE TREMENDOUS WITH SCIENCES, THEY CAN CALCULATE, THEY CAN RATIONALIZE WITH THE BEST OF THEM, THE ARE TREMENDOUS IN ACADEMICS....BUT THEY ARE SO STUPID THAT THEY CAN'T SEE GOD WHEN HE'S MOVING. (THIS STATEMENT IS NOT TO SIXPACK, JUST TO READERS) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD WITHOUT FAITH. AND WITHOUT FAITH THERE IS A LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING THAT ONE WILL NOT HAVE. SOME THINGS IN THE BIBLE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE SENSE TO THE CARNAL MIND, BUT THAN SOME THINGS ARE GOING TO MAKE SENSE TO THE "RELIGIOUS" MIND. IT REQUJIRES FAITH. I KNOW SOME WON'T UNDERSTAND HOW 1+1+1=1, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS FOR THIS LEVEL OF LEARNING, YOU OUGHT NOT LEAN TO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. YOUR NOT GOING TO ALWAYS UNDERSTAND....HENCE THE REASON FOR FAITH! THE GREAT THING ABOUT THE TRUTH IS, ITS TRUE RATHER YOU BELIVE IT OR NOT. JUST HAVE FAITH AND THE LORD WILL EITHER SHOW YOU HIS TRUTHS, OR HE WILL SEND ONE WITH REVELATION TO GIVE IT TO YOU. A SOLID PIECE OF ICE IF IT IS MELTED TURNS TO WATER, AND IF IT IS HEATED TURNS TO GAS. 1. ICE + 1. WATER + 1. GAS = 1. THE SAME CUBE OF ICE MADE WATER AND GAS....MAKES MORE SENSE NOW? ONE GOD, THREE DIFFERENT MANISFESTATIONS. BE CAREFUL THAT THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS DOESN'T BECOME FOOLISHNESS FOR YOU. YOU MIGHT SLIP UP AND BECOME NONE OF HIS.  BE BLESSED IN THE LORD AND FIND YOUR WAY TO JESUS...IT WOULD BE HORRIBLE TO DO ALL THIS STUDYING, SPEAK OF ALL THESE THINGS THAT MAKE SENSE, DIE AND GO TO HELL. IF EVERYTHING WAS GOING TO MAKE SENSE TO OUR FINITE MINDS, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR FAITH....SO SIXPACK, BACK TO THE BASICS, HAVE YOU DEVELOPED IN FAITH? I SEE THAT YOU HAVE FAITH IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND LOGIC, BUT DO YOU HAVE FAITH IN JESUS....BECAUSE RATHER YOU AGREE OR NOT HE IS GOD...BUT HE ONLY BECOMES YOUR GOD WHEN YOU PUT FAITH TO IT. P.S. THE JEWS DIDN'T BELIEVE HIM EITHER. AND IN PROVING THERE POINT, THEY ONLY CAUSED HIM TO FULFILL THE PROPHECY. BELIEVE OR DON'T BELIEVE, BUT BE WARNED JUDGEMENT IS COMING AND YOU, MY FRIEND, HAVE NO EXCUSE BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED....YOU BETTER TELL HIM YES.

[GKB]

I HAVE A QUICK QUESTION. HOW CAN SO MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT GOD, JESUS, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ONE (AND YOU ARE RIGHT) AND STILL BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY? COULD ONE OF YOU BRILLIANT FOLKS ANSWER THAT FOR ME. THE TRINITY IS THE BELIEF THAT GOD IS THREE, HENCE THE WORD "TRI"NITY. SOME OF US ARE SAYING THE RIGHT STUFF AND JUST A TAD BIT OFF IN WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY CONFESSING.

[nChrist]

I HAVE A QUICK QUESTION. HOW CAN SO MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT GOD, JESUS, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ONE (AND YOU ARE RIGHT) AND STILL BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY? COULD ONE OF YOU BRILLIANT FOLKS ANSWER THAT FOR ME. THE TRINITY IS THE BELIEF THAT GOD IS THREE, HENCE THE WORD "TRI"NITY. SOME OF US ARE SAYING THE RIGHT STUFF AND JUST A TAD BIT OFF IN WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY CONFESSING.

Hello GKB,

I see that you are new, so WELCOME!!

The doctrine of the HOLY TRINITY is completely Biblical, and I think it is exactly what you just said. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. They have been ONE for eternity past and will be ONE for eternity future. I think that people may express the same thing with various words because this is so difficult for men to understand. Men aren't supposed to understand the full MIGHT, POWER, AND MAJESTY OF ALMIGHTY GOD!

When Christians talk about the Holy Trinity, they are talking about ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. Maybe the term "Holy Trinity" is also confusing, but it's really just a short and reverent way of saying: God the Father is Almighty God - God the Son is Almighty God - God the Holy Spirit is Almighty God - AND THE THREE ARE ONE. I really don't know of an easier way to explain this.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

[cris]

Don't know if this will help, but try to look at it from this perspective.

A man is one, but he can be a son, father, and grandfather.  The three have different roles, but the three are one and/in the same.

There are three persons in one God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.  

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi GKB,

Welcome to the forum.

Many people struggle with this concept. The scripture tells us clearly that they are three. Jesus tells us this Himself in Mat 28:19. Yet we also know that they are one as we see in many different verses (1John 5:7 for one) for there is one and only one God. We also see that Jesus is God come to us in the flesh (John 1).

We know that God does not lie so we know by faith that these things are true.

[bluelake]

Many people tell us "but the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God. How can you say that Jesus is not God's only begotten son when Jesus says it so clearly in black and white in the Bible?" Well, first of all, as seen in the previous section, we first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking. Let us see how they understood this proclamation.

Let us begin by asking: How many sons does the Bible tell us that God Almighty has?

Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people.
Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God? Read Psalms 2:7"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus (pbuh) held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus (pbuh) he defended himself with the following words "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." John 10:34: (he was referring to Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..")

As we can see from these and many other verses like them, "son of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as "Son of God" (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and "son of God" (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same. Are we beginning to see what drove the most learned men of the Anglican Church to recognize the truth? But let us move on.

Grolier's encyclopedia, under the heading "Jesus Christ," says: "During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be "my Lord." Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as "my Lord.".... it is unlikely that the title "Son of David" was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. "Son of God," in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par.; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself" .

There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus (pbuh) refers to himself as "son of God." They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in "The dictionary of the Bible" says: "Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful." Regardless, we have already seen what is meant by this innocent title. However, Jesus is referred to as the "son of Man" (literally: "Human being") 81 times in the books of the Bible.

In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus (pbuh) knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people.

Jesus was not the son of a human man (according to both the Bible and the Qur'an). However, we find him constantly saying "I am the son of man." Why? It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say "I am a human being."

What was he trying to tell us by constantly repeating and emphasizing to us throughout the New Testament "I am a human being," "I am a human being," "I am a human being"?. What had he foreseen? Think about it!

Do Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus? The New Testament Greek word translated as "son" are "pias" and "paida" which mean "servant," or "son in the sense of servant." These are translated to "son" in reference to Jesus and "servant" in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible (see below). As we are beginning to see, one of the most fundamental reasons why Jesus (pbuh) is considered God is due to extensive mistranslation. We shall see more and more examples of this throughout this book.

Islam teaches that Jesus (pbuh) was a human being, not a god. Jesus (pbuh) continually emphasized this to his followers throughout his mission. The Gospel of Barnabas also affirms this fact.

Once again, Grolier's encyclopedia says: "...Most problematical of all is the title "Son of Man." This is the only title used repeatedly by Jesus as a self-designation, and there is no clear evidence that it was used as a title of majesty by the post-Easter church. Hence it is held by many to be authentic, since it passes the criterion of dissimilarity."

Yes, Jesus is God. Please read Jn.1:1 And the Word was with
God and the Word was God.
1Jn.5:20  and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Isa.7:14, Mt.1:23 Jn.20:28 Rom.9:5 Col.2:9 Heb. 1:8 !Jn.5:11

God bless,
bluelake