Rapture

[nChrist]

Sister Reba,

I enjoy looking at and studying several points of view. So, post away. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, and that's what really matters.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 15:9-11 ASV  Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love.  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

[Reba]

OK but no fair getting mad at me.....or i will cry

I would love to hear your explanations for the scriptures which you posted. It's virtually impossible for me to know from what context these verses are relevent in relation to your opinion.

 

Bronze you posted you believe the scriptures literaly. So i posted those verses and ask. Literaly speaking what did Jesus mean when He said  "this generation"  My point is i believe literaly He meant just what He said .  That generation met a horiable death in 70 ad. Just as Judas was held accountable for his actions in the murder of Christ the priests were also. Dont go off in  a fit i know He laid down His life but there is the physical actions also.

What did Jesus mean when He said..

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The wording here does not allow for a span of time more then an hour.  

 Why is it thousand means thousand  but hour does not mean hour.

Why does shorty not mean shortly nor at hand mean at hand Bronze the grammar of those verses doesn't work with your therory.

Our therories  should fit into scripture not the scripture fit our theroies... Those Words (John5;28)of Christ are often left aside when we talk of resurrection. When we talk of resurrection talk of rapture talk will happen SHORTLY   !


If Christ is to rule for a thousand years from the temple on the mount remember there will be no mount for the temple to be on. And the water gcoming from the split of the mount is 'living water' remember the story of the woman at the well and the talk of living water...

I must stop i do not put thoughts together well but i do believe you have an idea of my thoughts... Your thories are not new to me i am almost 60 and grew up believing them...I have watched them evolve..

I removed this topic from my notifiction list but had to peek i flounder in how to put things on paper and how to talk but i love the subject .......

[Soldier4Christ]

Reba,

Hour does mean hour but what hour is being spoken of? An hour now or an hour a thousand years from now? It is the same as:

Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

12 o'clock midnight, 12 o'clock noon or some hour in between we do not know.

The term "at hand" means the time is approaching.

Luk 21:30  When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

But again we don't know an exact timeframe. In the verses above it is given that it will be some time after the signs given in Luke 21: 24-28.


As for the word shortly we do not have a specific time frame. Lets look closer at the Greek meanings that you gave for the word and prepositions shortly. The manner that we use shortly today is not the manner that it was used.

"G1722 en A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state)".

What is this fixed timeframe?

"and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537);"

It is a timeframe that is somewhere in the middle between G1519 and G1537.

"G1519 eis A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - "

This is usually meaning a time already past up to a time already reached.

"G1537 ek  ex A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Note here, a timeframe that is "often of completion".

This is telling us that "shortly" means somewhere between a beginning timeframe and a completion timeframe. Again I ask what is this timeframe being spoken of? When is the beginning of it and when is the completion of it? If we answer these questions then we might be able to get a ballpark figure of time for the word "shortly".

In the book of Revelations "shortly" and "the time is at hand" means a timeframe when we see the things that are mentioned there starting to take place.

[Reba]

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

THe use of the word hour in the above puts the resurection of 'good' and 'evil' in the same time frame. it also doesnt leave room for a number of resurrections.

The use of the word hour here is not different then Mat 24 :42  how many resurections is in said hour  or how many comings are in the hour?

Summer follows spring quick quickly.

The word shortly means the whole of what i posted not just the parts we  may want to see. it plainly says quickly shortly in haste speedly. The distcruction was coming and  God  warrined the churches via Johns letters.

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste: - + quickly, + shortly, + speedily

The term "at hand" means the time is approaching

So the end of the world has always been at hand. Our bodily death is at hand. this is a stretch of the meaning of at hand.


Joh 2:13  And2532 the3588 Jews'2453 passover3957 was2258 at hand,1451 and2532 Jesus2424 went up305 to1519 Jerusalem,2414


yup  it was 2000+ years  untill that Passover


And he said, Go into the city to such a man,and say unto him,The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

again was it 2000+ plus years to 'His time'
 

[Bronzesnake]

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  

Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.  

These verses correspond to the judgment spoken of in Rev 20:11

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  

These are not Rapture verses, because the "living" are not mentioned, only the dead.

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.  

Here are the verses from Revelation which correspond to the John 5:29 -29


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  

 The bible clearly says there will be two resurrections, but this terminology is a bit misleading.
 There is the resurrection of the "just", and the second resurrection, which is the one described in the Revelation verses above.
 However, the Scriptures establish the fact that the resurrection of the righteous will occur in stages.

The Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Following this, those converted during the final seven-year tribulation who are beheaded are also resurrected. Finally, the Old Testament Saints are resurrected along with all the unsaved dead at His second coming as described in Revelation 20:13-15. This is corroborated in Daniel 12:1-2

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Please allow me to present a scenario, which I hope will help me explain myself better in regards to "shortly"

 Let's say God gave you the ability to see certain cataclysmic events, which would occur in 2000 years from now. That's a long time for certain. Jesus would tell you "these things I'm going to show you will happen in 2000 years.

 Now let's say Jesus took you in spirit ahead in future 2000 years. To a point "shortly" before the cataclysmic events were about to occur. From that perspective, Jesus would say "look at these things, and write down everything you see, because I'm about to show you (from this point in time) what will shortly occur"

 This is exactly what happened to John my sister. He was seeing things as they actually were occurring. So Jesus was giving John a time frame from the point from which John first appeared in that future point in time. Jesus told John that in a short time from that exact moment in the future, certain horrendous events would "shortly" occur.

 I keep repeating several literal events from Revelation, which have most certainly not occurred up to date, and most assuredly could not have occurred in 70 A.D.

 All the wars, and natural disasters, the plagues, and famines, the fact that 1/3 of man and 1/3 of ocean life are wiped out with 1/3 of the sea becoming red with blood.

 I'm not repeating these things to be a goofball. I'm repeating it so that we might realize that these are "future" events which have not occurred as of yet.

 Jesus told us what to look for so we could know when the time was "at hand" Not so we would know the exact hour, day, or year. He did tell us to be ready, especially when "all" the signs were occurring at the same time. The time is here.

 God Bless all my friends here at C.U.!

[psalmistsinger]

I must say it is encouraging to read the respectful way that folks involved in this conversation are treating one another. Regardless of the view the Love of Christ is certainly being exemplified, and that alone is a pleasure all too rare whn brethren disagree even on issues of secondary importance.

And it is nice to meet you as well Reba. In reading your posts I believe you and I have much agreement in this area. I believe 70 ad was pivotal. The things that happened inside Jersusalem during the siege were horrific and, I believe, the fullfilling of Matthew 24.

I believe when Jesus said "this generation" those to whom He was speaking expected that His meaning was to them - that generation.  It certainly seems to read that way to me. Otherwise, in my opinion, we have to interject explanations that do not appear present in the text.

I covered in my previous post what I believe about Rev.20 and 21. I understand what Bronzesnake is saying, and I appreciate brother your godly attitude in presenting it. I personally don't see the 2000 year jump, but then as I said I see these scriptures in Revelation as Spirtual representations of spiritual truth, while you believe them to be literal. That's ok -I know I'm in the minority.

For example the Book of Life - a literal physical book, or descriptive of our position in the New Covenant? I believe it is descriptive. Jesus is the Life and if we believe in Him we are resurrected from our deadness in sin into the New life that He has purchased.

If I read things in the context of "this generation" being the one to whom Jesus spoke then, in my understanding, it gives to many scriptures a covenant context.

2 Peter 3:1-4 "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

In the last days of the Old Covenant there were scoffers against those who accepted Christ as Lord. Israel was looking for a super David to kick Rome out, so if He was the Christ where was the promise of His coming? All things continued, and a literal kingdom wasn't established. They did not accept Jesus, and Peter, Paul, and the others spent a good deal of time on these who did not understand the gospel.

2 Peter 3:5-7 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Willfully ignorant. Not accepting what was already in their scriptures as precursor for Their time.  The earth and sky remained yet a "world", Noah's world, had already been destroyed. That is what the Bible says -not me. A "heavens and the earth", another world, a covenant, was about to be destroyed being reserved unto fire.

2 Peter 3:8-9 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God's timing can be whatever God wants it to be. Yet when God is specific -this generation -I think we can safely be so too. In context Peter is telling those enduring the scoffing, questioning the reality of Jesus was because to their natural eyes nothing had changed, not to worry.  They were certainly anticipating what Jesus had said -this generation - but the period in which they were enduring the scoffing was Gods mercy. The Word was being preached. Israel was hearing and being judged.

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

The DAY of the Lord, a day of judgement. And it came as Jesus said, and the elements of that world, that covenant, were destroyed. The templed was left without one stone upon another.

2 Peter 3:11-12 "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Now I have often found this part interesting. Peter says that their conversation and conduct could hasten the coming of that day. How? Because the gospel was being preached, and the more it was preached, the more the old covenant was exposed for what it was -finished! And the more Israel was judged as they rejected the Messiah who was the fulfillment of all that their covenant looked to. And before that generation passed away the physical aspects of that covenant suffered the fate that the covenant itself experienced on crucifixion day - they were dissolved.

2 Peter 3:13-14 "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

Amen - We are not looking backward to covenant of animal sacrifices, and other works -but ever forward into this New Covenant of Life. Because of this be found of Him in peace. Trust in Him.

2 Peter 3:15-16 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

On the surface I think you have to wonder when did Paul ever speak of these things? He certainly did not use a lot of the terminology -heavens melting with a fervent heat and so forth, but then when you understand that Peter is talking about the covenants, why that is exactly what Paul talked about! Romans, Galatians, and not least of all 2 Cor 3 - the New Covenant! Old things are passed away and behold all things are made new!

Just some thoughts for consideration. Offered not so much to persuade, to offer a biblical basis for this point of view.

My compliments again on the kind spirit exhibited.

In His Grace...

[Bronzesnake]

Hello psalmistsinger. I appreciate your point of view and the friendly way you express it also my friend.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.  

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.  

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  

 This verse holds an important key. The disciples knew that Jesus would be leaving them. They also knew that His return would correspond to the "end of the world" Do you believe Jesus died in 33 A.D. then returned in 70 A.D.? Was that the "end of the world"?

 Jesus went on to tell the disciples exactly what future generations should look for, to know when He would return.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  

 This did not happen by 70 A.D.



Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 Certainly there were wars in 70 A.D., but Jesus paints a very dire picture here which does not fit in with 70 A.D. Look at the history books, and you will not find such a scenario as what Jesus described any where near 70 A.D.

Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.  


Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.  

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.  

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 This does not fit in with 70 A.D. either.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.  

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  

 Surely you must concede that the Gospel was not preached throughout the world by 70 A.D.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  

 satan has not appeared standing in the Holy Place as of yet. he surely wasn't there in 70 A.D.



Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 The Jews, in  70 A.D. did not flee into the mountains. They were physically booted out of Israel and sent to the four corners of the earth.



Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 The above four verses describe an escape scenario. This did not happen in 70 A.D.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  

 As bad as it obviously was in 70 A.D. you would be hard pressed to deny things have gotten much, much worse. Therefore this verse was not in relation to 70 A.D. but rather to a future time when "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."  

to continue...

[Bronzesnake]

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  

 There is no possible way that every human being on earth could have been wiped out in 70 A.D.


 
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.  

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  

There is no account of another "Christ" performing wonders and miracles, which would cause even the "elect" to be fooled in 70 A.D.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.  

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.  

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 Jesus drives the point home. When He returns the entire Universe will light up. There will be no doubt that it is Him. This did not happen in 70 A.D.



Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.  

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  

 This also did not happen in 70 A.D. I really would have to struggle and stretch in order to pull a "spiritual" message from such literal descriptions as these in Mat 24.



Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

 Jesus Himself says He will return only "after" all these terrible events occur.



Now Jesus gives a very specific "end times " sign...

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:  

 The "fig tree" is Israel. Jesus is telling us that when the Jews return to Israel, which did not happen until 1948, and they gained control of the Holy City of Jerusalem in 1967, we would know the end is upon us.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

 Here again, Jesus says that when we see "all" these things - not some of them, but "all" of them, we will know the end is near.  If I was to stretch, and take all these literal terms and descriptions as spiritual - I would be confused as to what "the end" was a reference of. Surely not an end of evil, there's plenty of that going around. Surely not an end of persecution of the Jews - heck, there's even Christians who hate the Jews, let alone the radical Islamists, and others.


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.  

 It is clear, that when taken within the context of these verses, the term "this generation" is in reference to the generation, which witnesses "all" these prophesies. These prophecies did not happen in 70 A.D. - they are happening now. We are "this generation"

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.  

 This confirm that Jesus wants us to know these things are "literal"


Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 This verse makes absolutely no sense whatsoever if we take it spiritually. Jesus nails it down to a specific day and hour (which only God knows) so if this is spiritual, how will you know when "it?" happens? It doesn't add up my friend. This is a literal message. These events will literally occur at a specific day and hour, which only the Father knows. Read the next verse - Jesus compares these Mat 24 verses to the literal Old Testament flood story.


Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 As surely as the flood occurred, so will the end times prophecies occur literally.


Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  

 Jesus is confirming the literal warnings from Mat 24 - People in Noah's time did not take the warnings literal, just as some of us do not take the Mat 24 warnings literal.


Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 This verse is self-explanatory my friend. Jesus is doing everything He can to make us understand that these warnings are real, literal future events. The people in Noah's time were warned also, but refused to believe it. Look what happened to them.



Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.  

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.  

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.  


 

In the last days of the Old Covenant there were scoffers against those who accepted Christ as Lord. Israel was looking for a super David to kick Rome out, so if He was the Christ where was the promise of His coming? All things continued, and a literal kingdom wasn't established. They did not accept Jesus, and Peter, Paul, and the others spent a good deal of time on these who did not understand the gospel.

 Good point.  It was prophesied that He would be born of a virgin - that literally happened. It was prophesied that He would be born in Bethlehem - that literally happened. It was prophesied that He would be preceded by a messenger - that literally happened. It was prophesied that Jesus would come and He would be rejected by His own - that literally happened.
It was prophesied that He would be falsely accused and nailed through His hands and feet - that literally happened

A literal Kingdom was established. Jesus came to collect subjects for His Kingdom - that's us! - That literally happened.

Just as all the Old Testament prophecies were literal and literally happened - so are the New Testament prophecies literal, and, are and, will continue to literally happen.

[Reba]

Hello psalmistsinger. I appreciate your point of view and the friendly way you express it also my friend.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.  

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.  

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?  

 This verse holds an important key. The disciples knew that Jesus would be leaving them. They also knew that His return would correspond to the "end of the world" Do you believe Jesus died in 33 A.D. then returned in 70 A.D.? Was that the "end of the world"?

Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
KJV

 

Jesus went on to tell the disciples exactly what future generations should look for, to know when He would return.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  

 This did not happen by 70 A.D.

1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

1 John 4:3

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 Certainly there were wars in 70 A.D., but Jesus paints a very dire picture here which does not fit in with 70 A.D. Look at the history books, and you will not find such a scenario as what Jesus described any where near 70 A.D.

History tell us a very clearly of the tribulation those in Jersualem fell under. Some folks think it fits 70 AD some dont. World history tells us of the tribulation, violence etc. Rome put on the christians.Surly you have read Josephes. ( sp sorry )

Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.  


Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.  

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.  

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 This does not fit in with 70 A.D. either.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.  

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  

 Surely you must concede that the Gospel was not preached throughout the world by 70 A.D.

Rom 10:15-18

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.KJV

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  

 satan has not appeared standing in the Holy Place as of yet. he surely wasn't there in 70 A.D.



Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
 
 The Jews, in  70 A.D. did not flee into the mountains. They were physically booted out of Israel and sent to the four corners of the earth.





Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

 The above four verses describe an escape scenario. This did not happen in 70 A.D.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  

 As bad as it obviously was in 70 A.D. you would be hard pressed to deny things have gotten much, much worse. Therefore this verse was not in relation to 70 A.D. but rather to a future time when "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Some say the christians of that time, that heeded the Words of the Lord fled...


I do wonder if those at the time of Noah thought their trublition was bad.... only 8 people left alive on earth....one can only swim for so long....

[Bronzesnake]

 Hello Reba.
How are things going my sister?

 I'm just going to make a few (brief?) points.

 

Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
KJV

 The Gospel could not have reached the entire world at that point. The American continent was not even known back then. At the time these verses were written, the Gospel had been spoken throughout the "known" world. God had much bigger plans.

My quote...

 Jesus went on to tell the disciples exactly what future generations should look for, to know when He would return.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  

This did not happen by 70 A.D.

 I still assert this did not happen in 70A.D.
Here's why...

These verses don't describe false Christs - they describe unbelievers.

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.  

There were plenty of unbelievers back then, but nowhere in the Gospels is there even a single example or description of anyone claiming to be Christ, except for Jesus.

My quote...

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 Yes, Rome was a conquering nation, but Jesus says "the end is not yet" Isn't that curious? He then goes on to describe additional prophecies which must occur before the "end times"

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

This verse describes many nations and kingdoms wageing war against other nations and kingdoms. 2,000 years ago, Rome was in solid control of the known world. There was not all these other nations and kingdoms wageing war. Add to that the famines and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Yes, I have read Flavious Josephus, and I can't find these conditions in his writings.

Certainly there were wars in 70 A.D., but Jesus paints a very dire picture here which does not fit in with 70 A.D. Look at the history books, and you will not find such a scenario as what Jesus described any where near 70 A.D.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

When is the "end" spoken of in this verse?

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  

First of all, notice how God says the Gospel shall be preached in all the world? then He adds for a witness unto "all nations"
"then the end shall come"

What ended in 70A.D.? Nothing got better after 70A.D., in fact, it has gotten much, much worse. We are actually capable of destroying the entire planet today. Nothing ended in 70A.D. but it is now very close to "the end" All the prophetic signs spoken of by Jesus have come together in our generation - not in 70A.D.

Some say the christians of that time, that heeded the Words of the Lord fled...

The scriptures tell us that all the Jews were tossed out and sent to the four corners of the earth. None got away from Titus and his armies in 70A.D.

I do wonder if those at the time of Noah thought their trublition was bad.... only 8 people left alive on earth....one can only swim for so long....

The scriptures we are discussing were written 2,000 years after the flood. So apparantly, it is going to be worse than even the flood, as the following verse corroborates...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  

Thanks for having such great patience with me Reeba.

John

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I have tried to follow along and do some study on preterism. I have some questions that I would really like to see discussed. Many portions of Scripture are tied together, and there are some very descriptive events.

So, please help me out some. With preterism:

Is there a Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ? If so, has it already happened?

The Tribulation Period is ended with the Second Coming of Christ, so has the Second Coming of Christ already happened, or are we still in the Tribulation Period?

The Second Coming of Christ also involves the locking away of the devil. Do preterists believe this is literal and has happened?

The Tribulation Period is immediately followed by the 1,000 year earthly rule and reign of Jesus Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Do preterists believe this has already happened or will happen?

Speaking of the Second Coming of Christ, do preterists believe the events are literal? Is the pouring out of God's Wrath on the earth literal from a preterist perspective? If so, has this already happened? 70 A.D. would have been a band-aid event compared to the descriptions I read in the Bible about the Tribulation Period.  In fact, 70 A.D. was a band-aid event compared to World War II, and World War II is a band-aid event in comparison to the descriptions of end of this age events in the Bible.

I'm curious what preterists believe about Revelation. The Tribulation Period is an end of this age event, yet Revelation was written more than 20 years after 70 A.D. So, how could this be explained from a preterist perspective?

Are all of the portions of Scripture that deal with the temple in the time of the Tribulation Period to be deemed non-literal from a preterist perspective? If not, has there been a time when the anti-Christ ruled over the earth from the Temple in Jerusalem? And, has there been a time when JESUS CHRIST ruled over the earth from the Temple in Jerusalem? What about the Two Witnesses?

In short, I'm still trying to study preterism. From what I see so far, the age of Grace would also have ended if 70 A.D. was the Tribulation Period. If so, the other end of age events would have also happened. It's an absolute certainty that we aren't living in a time where the devil is locked up, so are all of the descriptions of God dealing with the devil and evil non-literal from a preterist perspective?

From a preterist perspective, what Biblical age are we living in? Keep in mind that it couldn't be the Millennial Kingdom, even if you discount the literal 1,000 years because the devil is locked away for the Millennial Kingdom. I would also have to say that we couldn't be living in eternity because this certainly isn't Heaven or hell.

If you could address these topics, I would appreciate it and have an easier time with this study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 13:20-21 ASV  Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[psalmistsinger]

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

This verse holds an important key. The disciples knew that Jesus would be leaving them. They also knew that His return would correspond to the "end of the world" Do you believe Jesus died in 33 A.D. then returned in 70 A.D.? Was that the "end of the world"?

I believe it was certainly the end of that age (world) wherein the people of Israel, or anyone else, could believe look to the temple -and the old covenant -as a way to God. As long as the temple stood scoffers could proclaim that Jesus wasn't the Way to God, because God dwelt in the temple. In 70 A.D. God allowed to be destroyed physically what had in reality been accomplished at Calvary. Jesus said He was the temple. The empty one was now desolate.

An example of a world passing away, but the earth remaining, can found in 2 Peter 2:4-5,

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"

and 2 Peter 3:6-7, with verse 7, I believe, making reference to the coming end of the temple that stood at the time of it's writing.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

 Jesus went on to tell the disciples exactly what future generations should look for, to know when He would return.
 

When I read this passage it appears to me that Jesus is answering the question without moving from generation to generation. He begins in verse 2 with the destruction of the temple, is asked three questions in verse 3.

1. when this will happen,
2. what is the sign of your coming , and
3 the end of the age.

In verse 34 Jesus says this generation will not pass until ALL these things have happened. I know the preveleet thinking is that differen time frames are inserte between verses 3 and 34, but the answer in verse 34, in my understanding, ties it all back to the first questions. That is ti say it appears to be to be one train of thought without other times inserted. It seems to be that we do that, but I don't see it in the passage. I am not claiming an all encompassing unfailing understanding, but just trying to explain my position.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This did not happen by 70 A.D.

Historicallly I believe it did, and it didn't take very long.

Scripture mentions Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 who the people in Samaria proclaimed to tbe "the great power of God".

Josephus records that the time period after Jesus, and before 70 A.D, was filled with false prophets proclaiming themselves something. It appears to be a time period when Israel knew no shortage of such things.

In a specific example Josephus mentions Theudas who had convinced many to follow him to the Jordan river where he had promised to divide the water so they could cross. Of course that didn't happen, and his life ended with Felix having him beheaded.

Josephus also says "...these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness, and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and then punished them."

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Certainly there were wars in 70 A.D., but Jesus paints a very dire picture here which does not fit in with 70 A.D. Look at the history books, and you will not find such a scenario as what Jesus described any where near 70 A.D.

I believe the time from the crucifixion until 70A.D was frought with wars. I believe the word for Nations can also be used for race. Josephus records in Caesarea in 59 A.D. the Jews and Syrians fought for  the city, and twenty thousand Jews were killed. At Scythopolis, over 13,000 Jews were killed. This doesn't include Roman conquests throughout the time.
Earthquakes are recorded through out the time as well. Note that Jesus did not say there would be more earthquakes than ususal, but that they would happen. One is recorded in Acts 16:26 that shook the foundations of the prison, as well as others recorded in secular history -Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, and Campania 62AD. Josephus say of an earthquake in Judea “that the constitution of the universe was confounded for the destruction of men."  
Of earthquakes at Rome Tacitus wrote, "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down," and "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Famines occurred as well. A famine recorded by  Tacitus, Suetonius, and Eusebius, and is also said to have been severe in Jerusalem. Josephus says that many people perished for want of food.  The disciples sent aid to those in Judea (Acts 11:27-29). Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. The Bible speaks of famines (Acts 11:27-29) during the reign of Claudius in 41-54 AD.

As for the seige of Jerusalem during 70 A.D - well..it becomes, as I said earlier, horrific. From Josephus, speaking of a woman called Mary daughter of Eleazar -

"Seizing her child, an infant at the breast, she cried, "My poor baby, why should I keep you alive in this world of war and famine? Even if we live till the Romans come, they will make slaves of us; and anyway, hunger will get us before slavery does; and the rebels are crueler than both. Come, be food for me, and an avenging fury to the rebels, and a tale of cold horror to the world to complete the monstrous agony of the Jews." With these words she killed her son, roasted the body, swallowed half of it, and stored the rest in a safe place. But the rebels were on her at once, smelling roasted meat, and threatening to kill her instantly if she did not produce it. She assured them she had saved them a share, and revealed the remains of her child. Seized with horror and stupefaction, they stood paralyzed at the sight. But she said, "This is my own child, and my own handiwork. Eat, for I have eaten already. Do not show yourselves weaker than a woman, or more pitiful than a mother. But if you have pious scruples, and shrink away from human sacrifice, then what I have eaten can count as your share, and I will eat what is left as well." At that they slunk away, trembling, not daring to eat, although they were reluctant to yield even this food to the mother. The whole city soon rang with the abomination. When people heard of it, they shuddered, as though they had done it themselves"

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

This does not fit in with 70 A.D. either.

Here again it seems to be that history is filled with examples.  Of course these things happen in our modern day as well. The servant is still not greater than the Master, and we as disciples are as hated in many of our modern cultures as those to Whom Jesus specifically spoke to at the time. And I don't think the world has known a shortage of false prohets for 2000 years, including the time between the crucifixion and 70 A.D.  Paul addresses them often in his letters.

Galatians 1: 6-8 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Galatians 2:3-5 "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you"

Philippians 3:18-19 "For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

to continue...

[psalmistsinger]

continued....

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Surely you must concede that the Gospel was not preached throughout the world by 70 A.D.

I think it depends on how we define "all nations", and I promise I'm not trying to play word games here
What I mean is that we often interpret "all nations" to mean the entire globe, but I don't believe the Apostles necessarily interpret it that way. In one sense it could be said that Luke believed it happend with Peter's first gospel message at Pentecost, for he writes-

Acts 2:5 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven."

Certainly by the time of the writing of Colossians Paul believed that every creature under heaven had heard the gospel.

Col 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

And again in Romans

Rom 16:26   "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

I believe the Apostles preached through out every known nation, as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24, and fulfilled what was spoken before the destruction of the temple. I believe the destruction of the temple is so pivotal because it showed the the total departure of God from the Old Covenant, as well as established a further proof that Jesus was Who He said He for those who knew that He had foretold it.

Imagine being a Jew in those days and being told that God didn't dwell in the temple, but in His Son who came to establish a New Covenant, and that by believing in His Son He would dwell in you! They did not believe the temple could be destroyed, and surely anyone who had said such a thing had to be a false prophet. Now imagine how you would view everything else this Man had said when prophecy after prophecy was coming true! It was said that the Apostles had turned the worls upside down with their preaching of Jesus!

Indeed, it had been.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  

satan has not appeared standing in the Holy Place as of yet. he surely wasn't there in 70 A.D.

I don't believe the abomination of desolation is Satan. I know many do, and I respect their opinion, but when I read it I believe I would be adding Satan, or antichrist as some say, to the text since it is not there. The text here, and even more readily apparent in the parallel passage in  Mark 13, refer to the abomination as an "it" and not a person.

Josephus tell us that at the destruction of the temple sacrifices were being made to idols upon theruins of the temple.
 
"The Romans planted their eagles on the shapeless ruins, over against the eastern gate, offered their sacrifices to them, and proclaimed Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of Joy."

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The Jews, in  70 A.D. did not flee into the mountains. They were physically booted out of Israel and sent to the four corners of the earth.

I agree that is what happened to those Jews who did not believe Jesus. I believe many Jewish Christians escaped the city because they heeded Jesus' warning.

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The above four verses describe an escape scenario. This did not happen in 70 A.D.

I believe it did. I believe there were those who read the signs, saw the Roman army, and got out of there.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 

As bad as it obviously was in 70 A.D. you would be hard pressed to deny things have gotten much, much worse. Therefore this verse was not in relation to 70 A.D. but rather to a future time when "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." 

I know there are always, sadly, inhumane things being to done to people by others, but at the same time -I believe - we can't discount what happened 70A.D. Along with with the recounting of Mary daughter of Eleazar we have this from Josephus -

"And as for those that are already dead in the war, it is reasonable we should esteem them blessed, for they are dead in defending, and not in betraying their liberty; but as to the multitude of those that are now under the Romans, who would not pity their condition? and who would not make haste to die, before he would suffer the same miseries with them? Some of them have been put upon the rack, and tortured with fire and whippings, and so died. Some have been half devoured by wild beasts, and yet have been reserved alive to be devoured by them a second time, in order to afford laughter and sport to our enemies; and such of those as are alive still are to be looked on as the most miserable, who, being so desirous of death, could not come at it. And where is now that great city, the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which vas fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many ten thousands of men to fight for it? Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? It is now demolished to the very foundations, and hath nothing but that monument of it preserved, I mean the camp of those that hath destroyed it, which still dwells upon its ruins; some unfortunate old men also lie upon the ashes of the temple, and a few women are there preserved alive by the enemy, for our bitter shame and reproach. Now who is there that revolves these things in his mind, and yet is able to bear the sight of the sun, though he might live out of danger? Who is there so much his country's enemy, or so unmanly, and so desirous of living, as not to repent that he is still alive? And I cannot but wish that we had all died before we had seen that holy city demolished by the hands of our enemies, or the foundations of our holy temple dug up after so profane a manner. "

to continue...

[psalmistsinger]

continued...

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 

There is no possible way that every human being on earth could have been wiped out in 70 A.D.

I believe the subject is the destruction of the temple in Jersusalem. When it fell the people were so hungry they were eating shoes and belts. Had it gone longer I believe all would've died.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 

There is no account of another "Christ" performing wonders and miracles, which would cause even the "elect" to be fooled in 70 A.D.

I don't think it was possible to fool the elect, but others were fooled. Theudas is an example.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. 

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. 

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 

Jesus drives the point home. When He returns the entire Universe will light up. There will be no doubt that it is Him. This did not happen in 70 A.D.

I believe what Jesus said happened, but when we say the universe will light up I believe we are adding meaning that is not present. That is not a cut or anything,  but just expressing my belief. I believe what happened was the great and terrible day of the Lord as  He came in judgement against the City that had rejected Him. I belive He established  for all to see that the temple, the Old Covenant, was not the wat to God.

There is an example of this in the Old Testament as well.

Isaiah 19:1 "The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it."

In this passage from Isaiah it is being prophesied that the Egyptians would be invaded by Assyria. Verse 1 above says the LORD shall come into Egypt, yet we understand that He did so by His judgment at the hands of Assyria.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

This also did not happen in 70 A.D. I really would have to struggle and stretch in order to pull a "spiritual" message from such literal descriptions as these in Mat 24.

I think the way we understand some things has much to do with the prism through which we read. Some read through a more "present to future prism", and some with a more "historical to present prism" I know that description does neither one of us justice, but I am only trying to establish history does provide events that, in my view, are evident without too much struggling.

Titus carried Roman Eagles statues into the temple area, and offered sacrifices to false god's. I believe God gave two lights  -the Sun ( the New Covenant) and the Moon (the Old Covenant), and the Sun was darkend for a time -the dark ages  - and the Moon has no light to give in the light of the Sun. That is to say we see by the New Covenant and not the Old. In 70A.D. the satrs fell from heaven and the powers of the heavens were shaken -the Jewish priesthood was destryed with the temple.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Jesus Himself says He will return only "after" all these terrible events occur.

Again, I believe He came in judgement as explained above.

Now Jesus gives a very specific "end times " sign...

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: 

The "fig tree" is Israel. Jesus is telling us that when the Jews return to Israel, which did not happen until 1948, and they gained control of the Holy City of Jerusalem in 1967, we would know the end is upon us.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

Here again, Jesus says that when we see "all" these things - not some of them, but "all" of them, we will know the end is near.  If I was to stretch, and take all these literal terms and descriptions as spiritual - I would be confused as to what "the end" was a reference of. Surely not an end of evil, there's plenty of that going around. Surely not an end of persecution of the Jews - heck, there's even Christians who hate the Jews, let alone the radical Islamists, and others.

I believe Jesus kept the same subject matter throughout the passage. The end of the temple, the physical closing out of the Old Covenant that had in reality happened at Calvary, for all to see. I believe the fig tree is an allegory for whatching the signs. Many insert 1948 there, but again -in my opinion -  it has to be inserted. And I believe all these signs came to pass as I have, all too ininadequately I'm sure, tried to explain.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

It is clear, that when taken within the context of these verses, the term "this generation" is in reference to the generation, which witnesses "all" these prophesies. These prophecies did not happen in 70 A.D. - they are happening now. We are "this generation"

With all kindness and respect, I just disagree. I believe history demonstrates the prophecies did happen within the generation to whom He said "this generation shall not pass". Believe my friend, I do not expect to be agreed with. I'm just trying to explain the position.

to continue...

[psalmistsinger]

continued...

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 

This confirm that Jesus wants us to know these things are "literal"

I believe these things did literally happen, but I also believe they have spirtual significance. The Sun and Moon for example. I belive it did really happen, but I believe the Sun and Moon has references to the covenants and not the orbs in the sky. The Old Covenant passed away, ant the earthly furnishings of the temple with it.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This verse makes absolutely no sense whatsoever if we take it spiritually. Jesus nails it down to a specific day and hour (which only God knows) so if this is spiritual, how will you know when "it?" happens? It doesn't add up my friend. This is a literal message. These events will literally occur at a specific day and hour, which only the Father knows. Read the next verse - Jesus compares these Mat 24 verses to the literal Old Testament flood story.


Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

As surely as the flood occurred, so will the end times prophecies occur literally.


Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 

Jesus is confirming the literal warnings from Mat 24 - People in Noah's time did not take the warnings literal, just as some of us do not take the Mat 24 warnings literal.

I think I may be making myself misunderstood as to "Spirtual" and "Literal". I think it depends upon the context. My earlier point had been that I believe Revelation to be Spiritual book about Spirtual things. I do not mean that things do have have their literal counterpart, but I believe they must be understood spiritualy. The "Sea" in Rev 21 for example has it counterpart in 1Kings as the laver, which was called a Sea, for outer washings, but it must be spitually understood. When Jesus says, speaking of the temple, not one stone shall be left upon another it is eveident that is what will happen. When He say we must eat His flesh and drin His blood we understand He does not mean literally.

He told His discilple what the signs of the times would be. I believe it happened as He said.

Good point.  It was prophesied that He would be born of a virgin - that literally happened. It was prophesied that He would be born in Bethlehem - that literally happened. It was prophesied that He would be preceded by a messenger - that literally happened. It was prophesied that Jesus would come and He would be rejected by His own - that literally happened.
It was prophesied that He would be falsely accused and nailed through His hands and feet - that literally happened

A literal Kingdom was established. Jesus came to collect subjects for His Kingdom - that's us! - That literally happened.

Just as all the Old Testament prophecies were literal and literally happened - so are the New Testament prophecies literal, and, are and, will continue to literally happen.

I believe the New testamant is filled with Spiritual pictures of literal truths. I believe what Jesus said in Matthew 24 did happen, and I think if we skip 2000 years of history we may miss some things.  I believe the New Testament is a Spiritual Covenant that must be understood Spiritually.

I appreciate the discourse, and my goals have not been to persuade anyone out of their belief,  just trying to explain mine. I appreciate the good fellowship that is evident. When all is said and done I believe, and I know we agree, how we loved Him and one another is what counts.

In His Grace...