The Word of God vs. the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Bronzesnake]

Revelation 4:1 Starts off with these words...

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. "

In the verse above John is taken from the Island of Patmos up to Heaven. Many believe this is an allusion to the Rapture.

Now look at what Jesus promised the church of Philadelphia...

Revelation 3:8 & 10 "...behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. ... Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  

Isaiah 26:20-21 "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."  

Psalm 27:5 "For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."  

Zephaniah 2:3 "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. "  

Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

The time of Jacob's trouble - Daniel's 70th Week ...

Jeremiah 30:7 "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

In a number of places, the Bible refers to the Tribulation as a time of trouble for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's Trouble" pertains to the descendants of Jacob. In the above verse it says that this time of trouble will come just before the Lord returns to save His people.

The Tribulation is the 70th week of a prophecy given to Daniel, I think we agree on this.

70 weeks = The "week/weeks" mentioned in this prophecy are "weeks of years"
These are Sabbatical years ... The Sabbath for the land was ordained in:
Leviticus 25:1-22, 26:33-35 ... Deuteronomy 15 ...

It was the failure to keep the Sabbath of the land that was the basis of the 70 years of Captivity.

Seventy Sevens - as we see in Daniel's prophecy: Daniel 9:24-27 imply these same weeks of years. (Another example of this appears in; Genesis 29:27)

In this passage in Daniel 9:24-27 we see...
70 Weeks were decreed for his people ... (Daniel's people = Jewish people)
...and for the Holy City (Jerusalem)
...to finish transgression
...to make an end to sin
...to make atonement for iniquity
...to bring in everlasting righteousness
...to seal up vision and prophecy
...and to anoint the most holy place

 The Scripture's never say that the Tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. However, some post-tribers try to claim they are the ones being tested during the Tribulation.

The Church was not here for Daniel's first 69 weeks ...
The focus of the entire prophecy was Israel. Daniel 9:24
The Church is the mysterious interval between the 69th and 70th week. Daniel 9:26

Bronzesnake.

[Bronzesnake]

I am really surprised at how post-tribers don't realize there are distinct differences in God's Word between the description of the Rapture and that of the Second Coming of Christ. These are two totally different events. Here are just some of the obvious differences:

The Rapture...

-Seen Only by Believers ... 1 Corinthians 15:52

-It's a Mystery revealed by Paul in the New Testament ...  1Corinthians 15:51-53

-In a Twinkling of an Eye ... 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
-We are Going "up" - Meeting Jesus in the Air ... 1 Thes 4:15-18

-A Thief in the Night.... 1Thessalonians 5:2

-Christ Comes for His Own ... 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

-Believers taken to Father's House ... John 14:3

-No reference to Satan ...

-Earth not judged ...

The Second Coming ...

-Every Eye Will See Him ... Revelation 1:7 19:11-16 and Matthew 24:30

-Not a Mystery - Foretold in Old Testament ... Daniel 12:1-3 and Zech. 12:10; 14:4

-He will be Coming "down" to the Mount of Olives ... Zechariah 14

-He Comes With His Own ... Revelation 19:14

-Satan bound ... Revelation 20:1-3[/u

-Earth judged ... Revelation 20:4-5


 Revelation 19:14 speaking of the Second Coming reads...
 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

 At the Second Coming, He is not coming alone.
Rather those who had been raptured earlier are coming back with Him!

 In Jude 1:14 ... Enoch also, prophesied about this saying...
 
 "...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints."
Interesting that Enoch was also Raptured! (Genesis 5:24)

 In a post-trib rapture scenario, we would rise in the air meet the Lord, then turn do a 180 back down to earth ... Zech. 14:4 tells us His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.
 If He is already headed our way ... why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?
Are we Going Up or Coming Down?

Bronzesnake

[Eddielee]

2 Thes 2:
6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming

If this is talking about the Holy Spirit as the restrainer, then when/how is the Holy Spirit revealed in his time?

Assumptions about this passage:

a.) That restraining the lawless one is equavalent to restraining lawlessness/evil/sin.
b.) That the Holy Spirit restrains sin in unbelievers. (meaning that the Holy Spirit restrains free will.)

Now, if this passage is speaking of the Holy Spirit, what proof is there to correlate the rapture of the saints with his ceased restraint upon the man of lawlessness?

Of course, the Holy Spirit, being omnipresent, will remain here...

Here the author admits that the Holy Spirit would still be on the earth no matter what; so how can we draw the conclusion that the Holy Spirit must be partially withdrawn in the rapture to end his restraint?

Can not the Spirit decide to stop restraining the man of lawlessness without rapturing the saints? Is this impossible for God?

The point of this is is that there is no evidence that
 a.) IF the restrainer is the Holy Spirit
    b.) He MUST rapture the saints to stop restraining the lawless one.

Now, the assumption is that to restrain the lawless one you have to restrain all lawlessness. That this must be the Holy Spirit restraining because he is supressing the sin of humanity. But the passage only tells us that the restrainer is supressing the man of lawlessness, no other evidence is given to support the idea that the restrainer is somehow keeping humanity in line.

[Bronzesnake]

2 Thes 2:
6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming

If this is talking about the Holy Spirit as the restrainer, then when/how is the Holy Spirit revealed in his time?

Assumptions about this passage:

a.) That restraining the lawless one is equavalent to restraining lawlessness/evil/sin.
b.) That the Holy Spirit restrains sin in unbelievers. (meaning that the Holy Spirit restrains free will.)

Now, if this passage is speaking of the Holy Spirit, what proof is there to correlate the rapture of the saints with his ceased restraint upon the man of lawlessness?

Of course, the Holy Spirit, being omnipresent, will remain here...

Here the author admits that the Holy Spirit would still be on the earth no matter what; so how can we draw the conclusion that the Holy Spirit must be partially withdrawn in the rapture to end his restraint?

Can not the Spirit decide to stop restraining the man of lawlessness without rapturing the saints? Is this impossible for God?

The point of this is is that there is no evidence that
 a.) IF the restrainer is the Holy Spirit
    b.) He MUST rapture the saints to stop restraining the lawless one.

Now, the assumption is that to restrain the lawless one you have to restrain all lawlessness. That this must be the Holy Spirit restraining because he is supressing the sin of humanity. But the passage only tells us that the restrainer is supressing the man of lawlessness, no other evidence is given to support the idea that the restrainer is somehow keeping humanity in line.

2 Thes 2:
6And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming

Is that scripture really so hard to understand for you eddielee?
Or are you pretending you don't understand it because it crushes a preconceived notion you may have had?

Did you read the entire post?

Bronzesnake.

[twobombs]

Hi Bronze,

Here we have a choice; temptation in revelation 3:8 & 10 and the wrath in Isaiah 26:20-21

I firmly believe Rev.3:10 is a promise in the following wording:

Rev 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee
from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell
upon the earth.


tereo {tay-reh'-o} keep
1) to attend to carefully, take care of
 a) to guard
 b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
 c) to observe
 d) to reserve: to undergo something


the essence of 3:10 is in the understanding of the greek ground word translated as "keep"
wich means in greek "guard" and not the latter "from" or grek ek or ex wich means
1) out of, from, by, away from

peirasmos {pi-ras-mos'} temptation
1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
 a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14)
 b) the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
2) an internal temptation to sin
 a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
4) adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
 c) temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
1) rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves

As controversial as it may sound, Rev 3:10 is a promise that guards one for temptation, it apparently
doesn't deal with any rapture, it points toward celestial protection  as depicted in:

Dan 12:1   And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the
children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a
nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall
be found written in the book.

`amad {aw-mad'} stand up
1) to stand, remain, endure, take one's stand
 a) (Qal)
1) to stand, take one's stand, be in a standing attitude, stand forth, take a stand, present oneself, attend upon, be or become servant of
2) to stand still, stop (moving or doing), cease
3) to tarry, delay, remain, continue, abide, endure, persist, be steadfast
4) to make a stand, hold one's ground
5) to stand upright, remain standing, stand up, rise, be erect, be upright
6) to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against
7) to stand with, take one's stand, be appointed, grow flat, grow insipid
 b) (Hiphil)
1) to station, set
2) to cause to stand firm, maintain
3) to cause to stand up, cause to set up, erect
4) to present (one) before (king)
5) to appoint, ordain, establish
 c) (Hophal) to be presented, be caused to stand, be stood before


malat {maw-lat'} delivered
1) to slip away, escape, deliver, save, be delivered
 a) (Niphal)
1) to slip away
2) to escape
3) to be delivered
 b) (Piel)
1) to lay, let slip out (of eggs)
2) to let escape
3) to deliver, save (life)
 c) (Hiphil)
1) to give birth to
2) to deliver
 d) (Hithpael)
1) to slip forth, slip out, escape
2) to escape


Here is another controversy; Micheal stands up "for the children of thy people" and at the end of
the scripture it mentions the magic "escape"-word. Not the guard or keep word that used before.

So first he guards, and then he delivers. There is a space of time between those 2.

Remember: I mentioned Dan 12:1 with the rapture, yet you mentioned Rev 3:10 with the guard (not rapture).

______________

Next:

Isa 26:20   Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers,
and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a
little moment, until the indignation be overpast.


cheder {kheh'-der} thou into thy chambers
1) chamber, room, parlour, innermost or inward part, within

chabah {khaw-bah'} hide
1) to withdraw, hide, hide oneself
 a) (Qal) to withdraw
 b) (Niphal) to hide oneself, remain hidden, withdraw

m@`at {meh-at'} or m@`at {meh-awt'} little while
1) littleness, few, a little, fewness
 a) little, small, littleness, fewness, too little, yet a little
 b) like a little, within a little, almost, just, hardly, shortly, little worth

za`am {zah'-am} indignation
1) anger, indignation

"thy chambers" clearly points toward prayer as it is written in:

Luk 21:36   Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted
worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
( Luk 21:35   For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. )

pagis {pag-ece'} snare
1) snare, trap, noose
 a) of snares in which birds are entangled and caught
1) implies unexpectedly, suddenly, because birds and beasts are caught unawares
 b) a snare, i.e. whatever brings peril, loss, destruction
1) of a sudden and unexpected deadly peril
2) of the allurements and seductions of sin
3) the allurements to sin by which the devil holds one bound
4) the snares of love
 
Here in luke 21:36 we have the escape-word again this time in connection with snare (as opposed to
temptation) And this snare-word carries in greek the word "destruction" and "the general effect of
yielding to sin" in it. Clearly pointing towards wrath after temptation; effectively not being kept
from it.

It is not a coincidence that both scriptures holding the much prized "escape" or "rapture" word carry
wrath or death in it, not temptation that comes before the yielding to sin.

This, my fiend, is the period of "Jacobs Trouble" as Dan 12:1 proves.

_________________

Then what is the temptation that leads to destruction ?
Paul writes:

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

AFTER the period of "peace and safety" they shall not escape.

olethros {ol'-eth-ros} destruction
1) ruin, destroy, death
 a) for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

ekpheugo {ek-fyoo'-go} ekpheugo {ek-fyoo'-go}
1) to flee out of, flee away
 a) to seek safety in flight
 b) to escape

The destruction depicted here is the period of wrath, a period that follows the well known "peace and safety" era that really starts the 70th week of Daniel.

Here again the "escape" word is named after the period, not before.

[to be continued]

[Eddielee]

Is that scripture really so hard to understand for you eddielee?
Or are you pretending you don't understand it because it crushes a preconceived notion you may have had?

Did you read the entire post?

Answers to Questions:
1. No;
2. No; Assumption: I don't understand it.
3. Yes;

I made some points that were disregarded, instead of addressing them you focused on my supposed ignorance/self deception.

[Bronzesnake]

Is that scripture really so hard to understand for you eddielee?
Or are you pretending you don't understand it because it crushes a preconceived notion you may have had?

Did you read the entire post?

Answers to Questions:
1. No;
2. No; Assumption: I don't understand it.
3. Yes;

I made some points that were disregarded, instead of addressing them you focused on my supposed ignorance/self deception.

I apologize for sounding as though I was insinuating that you were ignorant eddielee. I was tired, and I now see that I could have worded it better.

 I don't have much time at the moment, but I will address your last two posts later tonight.

Take care my friend.

Bronzesnake.

[Bronzesnake]

eddielee...

 

As controversial as it may sound, Rev 3:10 is a promise that guards one for temptation, it apparently
doesn't deal with any rapture, it points toward celestial protection  as depicted in:

 You're really splitting hairs here eddie. If that verse stood on it's own, without any further relevant rapture verses, then you may have a case. However, put that verse in relation to the many relevant rapture verses (which I have pasted) and you really have to concede, it's contextual meaning is more suited to being in reference to a "snatching away" or to be taken away from temptation, as opposed to being protected through temptation. We are always under the protection of Jesus, why all of a sudden would it be any different.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

AFTER the period of "peace and safety" they shall not escape.

olethros {ol'-eth-ros} destruction
1) ruin, destroy, death
a) for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

ekpheugo {ek-fyoo'-go} ekpheugo {ek-fyoo'-go}
1) to flee out of, flee away
a) to seek safety in flight
b) to escape

The destruction depicted here is the period of wrath, a period that follows the well known "peace and safety" era that really starts the 70th week of Daniel.

Here again the "escape" word is named after the period, not before.

 You forgot to add the remaining relevant verses my friend, which clearly state we are not included among those who remain on the earth at that time...we are already gone. The warning is for those who are left behind.

 How can you separate tribulation from wrath?
The word "tribulation" is a descriptive word used to describe the condition of the earth during His wrath. God's wrath includes the entire seven year period. The seven years are described as the final tribulation time, when God pours His wrath upon the non believers and followers of satan. Many will be saved after the rapture, and will be persecuted and hunted the entire time. Many will be beheaded during the seven years, and they will be raptured at that time.


1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  


 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  


 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  


1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  


 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.  


1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  


 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  


 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


 

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the
children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a
nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall
be found written in the book.

 I'm not sure what you are attempting to insinuate with that verse my friend.
 That verse covers a timeline which culminates with His second coming, and judgement of the non believers at the end of the 1,000 year reign my friend, as the following verse leads us to understand...

 Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

 When does that happen?
It happens after the 1,000 year reign...

 Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  


 Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  


 Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

 It appears as though the Kraken has been vanquished!

[twobombs]

Bronze: Again you refer to verses that either are placed very convenient in your view but other, more unconventional even controversial interpretations, defy your reasoning with a gracefull smile.

Bronze, something needs to be said what i've said already three times here, and I'm not tired to say it once more as you as a scripture scholar touched one of the most precious scripture and turned it into a lie (Dan12:1):

I have been raptured, I have seen the New Jerusalem, i've experienced the New Body we will receive.

God HIMSELF explained me what Dan 12:1 meant and clearly stated that i'll live and stand on my both 2 feet to see Dan 12:6

I don't actually care what type of scripture you want to throw at that mr Bookworm, mocking God that way, you need a relationship with Him and pray that He'll remove the lies out of your system.

And then I return to my first response to kraken in this thread:
" Let all who live in the USA leave now or believe the lie"
Same thing goes for Europe

FYI

[Bronzesnake]

Bronze: Again you refer to verses that either are placed very convenient in your view but other, more unconventional even controversial interpretations, defy your reasoning with a gracefull smile.

Bronze, something needs to be said what i've said already three times here, and I'm not tired to say it once more as you as a scripture scholar touched one of the most precious scripture and turned it into a lie (Dan12:1):

I have been raptured, I have seen the New Jerusalem, i've experienced the New Body we will receive.

God HIMSELF explained me what Dan 12:1 meant and clearly stated that i'll live and stand on my both 2 feet to see Dan 12:6

I don't actually care what type of scripture you want to throw at that mr Bookworm, mocking God that way, you need a relationship with Him and pray that He'll remove the lies out of your system.

And then I return to my first response to kraken in this thread:
" Let all who live in the USA leave now or believe the lie"
Same thing goes for Europe

FYI

twobombs...

 We have a difference of opinion on doctrine. I have provided many scriptural examples to show how, and why I come to my understanding. You have provided nothing but insults and innuendo, including vague references to scriptures without any further explanation as to how, or why you come to the conclusions that you have made. That in itself speaks volumes. You claim "God HIMSELF explained me" you probably mean "explained it to me", and that's fine my friend, but you can't seriously believe that statement makes you infallible. Jimmy Jones, David Koresh, and countless others of that ilk have professed that they got their doctrine straight from God Himself, and look how twisted their understanding was. You might want to pray on that.

 You made the following statement....

" I have been raptured, I have seen the New Jerusalem, i've experienced the New Body we will receive."...

"I have experienced the new body we will receive" hmmm, that's like saying, "I have received the new car today, that I'm getting next week"

 I'll ask you a few question in relation to that foolhardy statement in my next post.

 You should take your own advice my friend..."you need a relationship with Him and pray that He'll remove the lies out of your system."

 I don't mind being called a "bookworm", God tells us we should study His Word, you should try it sometime my friend. The sad reality here is that some "Christian" people feel that being a good Christian includes hurling insults, and accusing their brothers and sisters of mocking God, and lying, whenever they disagree - you're obviously one of them. Is everyone who you disagree with a liar, or is it only me?
 
  I will not permit you to call me a liar, or accuse me of mocking God. I am very serious about my personal relationship with Jesus, and I am not egotistical and proud enough in myself to believe God favours me above all others in giving me a superior doctrinal intellect, and 100% correct knowledge of His scriptures, above and beyond all the brilliant biblical schlolars and deciples throughout our history. I have strong beliefs in regards to many biblical doctrines, however, if I were to receive credible scriptural understanding that was contrary to any of my beliefs - I would accept the Truth regardless if I appear "wrong" or not. This is not about me being right, and you being wrong my friend. It's about human beings who believ and love Jesus, who are struggling to understand and obey God to the very best of our ability.

 Once we turn it into a compitition, we set ourselves up for failure. We then begin to believe we have the exclusive Truth straight from God Himself, and that anyone who disagrees with our "God given wisdom" is a "liar" and a "mocker of God"  That is a very dangerous road to travel on my friend.

This is your last warning, please don't do it again.
 We are Christians twobombs, we can disagree with each other without the insults and false accusations.

Bronzesnake.

 

[twobombs]

Bronze: I am not your friend, I am your brother.
Diffence in doctrine, so be it.
Making basic scripture interpretation look crooked, defining the
Word again with that big brain of yours, and eating propaganda
regarding the koresh issue like candy makes you once again
a baby in Christ (albeit with a big brain)

And once again I found you eating candy, hands in the cookie jar so to speak.

Want to hear more lies ? OCB & 9/11 ? Keep reading trash and
keep dumping it of this forum. More sucklings might like it, but
the stuff you present is not food, it's sooo sweet it makes me
 vomit.

The reality of the number of the beast tatood on someones body
will wake you up from this dream in wich you are living, stuff I
can only call  "the pre-trib hallucination"

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/news/020131a.asp?option=print

As my footnote reads I will not always be around to carry the
flame of this warning : be warned however the pre-trib attitude
is dangerous when there is more then enough evidence pointing
towards post-trib.

[Eddielee]

eddielee...

Quote:
As controversial as it may sound, Rev 3:10 is a promise that guards one for temptation, it apparently
doesn't deal with any rapture, it points toward celestial protection  as depicted in:
 

You're really splitting hairs here eddie.

Sorry Bronze, I didn't write that. That post is from TwoBombs.

The last thing I wrote was concerning the restrainer.

[Bronzesnake]

eddielee...

Quote:
As controversial as it may sound, Rev 3:10 is a promise that guards one for temptation, it apparently
doesn't deal with any rapture, it points toward celestial protection  as depicted in:
 

You're really splitting hairs here eddie.

Sorry Bronze, I didn't write that. That post is from TwoBombs.

The last thing I wrote was concerning the restrainer.

 My apologies my friend. I had a pancreatitis attack recently, so I've lost a fair bit of sleep. Again - I apologize.

Bronzesnake.