Who Knocks and Who Hears and Opens?

[ollie]

Revelation 3:20.  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus Christ knocks at the door. If any man hears and opens the door, Christ comes in.

Christ does the knocking, man does the hearing and opening.

Does this tell us anything about Jesus Christ's active part and man's active part in coming to Christ? Does man choose to open the door after hearing?

[Petro]

Ollie,

On the surface, this one verse by itself, sure sounds as thou it, would support your theory.

However, the context of this passage must be considered in its entirety, and then in order to understand it, must be supported by the entire teaching of all other scripture.


Here is the entire passage:  Please keep in mind who is speaking here:

Rev 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The key to understanding this passage, is found in verses 7 and 20.

But this is not where it ends, consider this passage; the Apostle John writes, concerning Jesus;


Jhn 12
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43  For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44  Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Now the key verses in this passage, shed light on the idea who hears and opens at verse you quote (Rev 3:20)

And in this final passage the answer is found to your theory, only those who receive the words of God and keep it, by doing it are given to Jesus by the Father.

Jhn 17
17:1  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4  I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 [/b]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were,[/b] and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


And finally, please note verse 6, them whom God gives to Jesus, belonged to Him, before they were given to Jesus,

So,  then if this is true, those who hear Jesus knocking at the door, do so, because they believed God, and because it was given to them to hear from  heaven of God.

Jhn 3
27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Where is free will here, the best that can be made of this is that any man who receives hearing and understanding from God,  to do anything that regards God or the things of God, for God, is excersicing that which has been given to him, honestly..


God Bless,

Petro

[asaph]

It's a wonder anyone can be a believer. I can't do anything. I can't have faith, I can't receive, I can't open a door, I can't shut a door, I can't hear, I can't obey, I can't repent, I can't respond, I can't ask, I can't knock, I can't seek, I have nothing to do with anything, I can only rebel.
Grace is meaningless to me because I have no part in it. It is fruitless to tell anyone anything 'cause they can't do anything about what I tell them anyway.
Jesus should have said, Don't repent or believe 'cause you can't do it anyway, I have to do it for you.
You make the word of God of none effect because it cannot bring about a response in me. I am a puppet with no free will.
Now you can begin to speak out of the other side of your mouth.

In His Love,

asaph

[Petro]

It's a wonder anyone can be a believer. I can't do anything. I can't have faith, I can't receive, I can't open a door, I can't shut a door, I can't hear, I can't obey, I can't repent, I can't respond, I can't ask, I can't knock, I can't seek, I have nothing to do with anything, I can only rebel.
Grace is meaningless to me because I have no part in it. It is fruitless to tell anyone anything 'cause they can't do anything about what I tell them anyway.
Jesus should have said, Don't repent or believe 'cause you can't do it anyway, I have to do it for you.
You make the word of God of none effect because it cannot bring about a response in me. I am a puppet with no free will.
Now you can begin to speak out of the other side of your mouth.

In His Love,

asaph

asaph,

You are begining to get it..

You can't because you are dead...............in sin and tresspass, in your case, it may be you weren't all that dead.

I wouldn't claim otherwise.

Understanding that one is spiritually dead, to God, is a good place to begin.  Unless God calls any man forth by name from the dead, he can never hear God.  

Maybe you heard  of your own doing, according to your version, I don't think this is true, you may..

If one begins understanding he was spiritually dead, he won't allow the idea that he believed go to his head.  And give occasion to the flesh to claim, in boasting  "I beleived", which you all do...

The truth is, everyone whom God saves, was given the gift to believe..what he could never believe, and without divine intervention everyone will have perished.

I am amazed, christians want to take credit for it..

What you and those who believe your version of God's great work, abhorr (because you don't want God to get all of the Glory, you seek a little bit your own glory), I find confort in, that God did all that was necessary for my salvation, even giving me, the faith, to believe in Jesus, whom I never cared about and would have never come to left to my own devices.

Praise God..



Petro

[asaph]

2Co 4:13  We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

No matter how you dissect or annalize it, when I heard the Gospel I believed and repented. These verbs are still being lived out in my life. Where is boasting? It is excluded.

Rom 3:27  What is left for us to brag about? Not a thing! Is it because we obeyed some law? No! It is because of faith.
Rom 3:28  We see that people are acceptable to God because they have faith, and not because they obey the Law.

The very nature of faith excludes boasting, so how can you say I am boasting about my faith? I boast only in Jesus for who he is and what he has accomplished at Calvary. Are you boasting about your superior knowledge of the scripture and looking down with pity at those of us who take a different interpretation. Faith is simply a response of a lost sinner to the Gospel of grace. Faith is how we receive grace. Faith is believing in the grace which we did not manufacture or even think up.

Gal 1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 
They began with faith but did not continue in faith. They added works to try to maintain God's acceptance. All they needed was to return to faith.

Gal 2:16  But we know that God accepts only those who have faith in Jesus Christ. No one can please God by simply obeying the Law. So we put our faith in Christ Jesus, and God accepted us because of our faith.
Gal 2:20  I have died, but Christ lives in me. And I now live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me.
Gal 2:21  I don't turn my back on God's undeserved kindness. If we can be acceptable to God by obeying the Law, it was useless for Christ to die.

The gospel is the power of God; our faith simply substantiates it. There is no virtue or praise that comes to us because we have faith.

Rom 1:16  I am proud of the good news! It is God's powerful way of saving all people who have faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.
Rom 1:17  The good news tells how God accepts everyone who has faith, but only those who have faith. It is just as the Scriptures say, "The people God accepts because of their faith will live."

I am proud of the good news, not my faith. Think of it! If I were to say, "Oh, I'm really proud of my faith; look what it got me!" That's not faith; that's presumption. But I can boast in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; that's faith in action.

I think you focus too much on the word "faith" and too little on Jesus in whom we trust. Just believe Him and do not worry about where faith came from. Faith is faith. I did not even think about the word faith when I beleived. I just simply trusted Jesus.

Col 1:21  You used to be far from God. Your thoughts made you his enemies, and you did evil things.
Col 1:22  But his Son became a human and died. So God made peace with you, and now he lets you stand in his presence as people who are holy and faultless and innocent.
Col 1:23  But you must stay deeply rooted and firm in your faith. You must not give up the hope you received when you heard the good news. It was preached to everyone on earth, and I myself have become a servant of this message.

Blessings,

asaph

[Petro]

I hear what you say, and agree, concerning how "FAITH" was obtained.

It is quite an altogether different message, once one starts to examine, what is taught by this camp.

And,  as soon as you say, that the gift, which presumably you acquired by faith, can be lost, and is not ETERNAL, I disagree, because this disagrees with what is wrtten.

And therefore requires dissection, for your benefit..

The flaw, is found in what it was you actually believed, because of what is said  by those who claim, "ETERNAL LIFE" is not ETERNAL, the emphasis and focus of these, is what one did, and what one does, to eventually get there.

This then is evidence, that claiming the possession maybe a presumption, because it is based on ones own "works".

The dissection then, is beneficial, beacause one  then can then examine the sobering aspect of what the word actually teaches.

Either all are dead or none are dead, before faith comes.

This is clearly seeing in the teaching concerning Lazarus, Jesus had to plainly state "Lazarus is dead" (Jhn 11:14), because his disciples, didn't believe he was.

Ole, Lazarus only heard the voice of Jesus, when it was given him (Jhn 3:27) from above to hear, the words of Jesus are heard only by those to whom it gransted that they may hear.
 
This is the nut of the teaching.  Only those whom the Father draw, can hear, because "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Did you hear him, because you were not totally dead, or, just a little dead??

Talk about speaking out of both sides of the mouth!

Eph 2:1, clearly says;


And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

It is a given fact all who [/b]were dead[/b] are made alive, in Christ, and receive faith, because of His righteous works, and nothing else, however it is not true at all, that one who has been given to the Lord Jesus, by the father can be lost, according to Jesus himself, who says;

Jhn 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The WILL of God, is the deciding factor in this matter, not our will..

Quite a difference, wouldn't you agree??


Blessings,
Petro

[asaph]

I hear what you say, and agree, concerning how "FAITH" was obtained.

It is quite an altogether different message, once one starts to examine, what is taught by this camp.

And,  as soon as you say, that the gift, which presumably you acquired by faith, can be lost, and is not ETERNAL, I disagree, because this disagrees with what is wrtten.

And therefore requires dissection, for your benefit..

The flaw, is found in what it was you actually believed, because of what is said  by those who claim, "ETERNAL LIFE" is not ETERNAL, the emphasis and focus of these, is what one did, and what one does, to eventually get there.

This then is evidence, that claiming the possession maybe a presumption, because it is based on ones own "works".

The dissection then, is beneficial, beacause one  then can then examine the sobering aspect of what the word actually teaches.

Either all are dead or none are dead, before faith comes.

This is clearly seeing in the teaching concerning Lazarus, Jesus had to plainly state "Lazarus is dead" (Jhn 11:14), because his disciples, didn't believe he was.

Ole, Lazarus only heard the voice of Jesus, when it was given him (Jhn 3:27) from above to hear, the words of Jesus are heard only by those to whom it gransted that they may hear.
 
This is the nut of the teaching.  Only those whom the Father draw, can hear, because "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Did you hear him, because you were not totally dead, or, just a little dead??

Talk about speaking out of both sides of the mouth!

Eph 2:1, clearly says;


And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

It is a given fact all who [/b]were dead[/b] are made alive, in Christ, and receive faith, because of His righteous works, and nothing else, however it is not true at all, that one who has been given to the Lord Jesus, by the father can be lost, according to Jesus himself, who says;

Jhn 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The WILL of God, is the deciding factor in this matter, not our will..

Quite a difference, wouldn't you agree??


Blessings,
Petro

Petro my Brother,
Remember what Jesus said, "They shall all be taught of God." If english words have any meaning, and they do, the "all" means just that "all". Now, a teacher has thirty students all sitting there in a classroom, but not all are hearing and learning from the teacher. Lets suppose the teacher says, "I want you all to leave right now. Those that were hearing get up and leave and those that did not hear stay. They think those others are acting out of line but they are the ones out of line themselves. This is how it is with the gospel call.
Whosoever means whosoever, all means all and everyone means everyone.
As I said earlier there is no merit in faith itself but only in what faith holds. We are held and hold by our faith. God's grace is useless if there is no faith. This is the mystery of Godliness. Grace came first. Faith came as a result of hearing. They shall all be taught of God. Some were not listening. Some, who did listen, later decided to add the Law to their faith and fell from grace. What is so difficult about this? A child can understand it. What makes you think that because I believe this I somehow  merit this grace, when faith is just a response to the unmerited favor of God? Cain could have exercised faith, just as Abel did. Abel trusted, Cain did not. They were both taught of God. This is Bible 101.

All praise goes to God!

asaph

[Petro]

I hear what you say, and agree, concerning how "FAITH" was obtained.

It is quite an altogether different message, once one starts to examine, what is taught by this camp.

And,  as soon as you say, that the gift, which presumably you acquired by faith, can be lost, and is not ETERNAL, I disagree, because this disagrees with what is wrtten.

And therefore requires dissection, for your benefit..

The flaw, is found in what it was you actually believed, because of what is said  by those who claim, "ETERNAL LIFE" is not ETERNAL, the emphasis and focus of these, is what one did, and what one does, to eventually get there.

This then is evidence, that claiming the possession maybe a presumption, because it is based on ones own "works".

The dissection then, is beneficial, beacause one  then can then examine the sobering aspect of what the word actually teaches.

Either all are dead or none are dead, before faith comes.

This is clearly seeing in the teaching concerning Lazarus, Jesus had to plainly state "Lazarus is dead" (Jhn 11:14), because his disciples, didn't believe he was.

Ole, Lazarus only heard the voice of Jesus, when it was given him (Jhn 3:27) from above to hear, the words of Jesus are heard only by those to whom it gransted that they may hear.
 
This is the nut of the teaching.  Only those whom the Father draw, can hear, because "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Did you hear him, because you were not totally dead, or, just a little dead??

Talk about speaking out of both sides of the mouth!

Eph 2:1, clearly says;


And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

It is a given fact all who [/b]were dead[/b] are made alive, in Christ, and receive faith, because of His righteous works, and nothing else, however it is not true at all, that one who has been given to the Lord Jesus, by the father can be lost, according to Jesus himself, who says;

Jhn 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The WILL of God, is the deciding factor in this matter, not our will..

Quite a difference, wouldn't you agree??


Blessings,
Petro

Petro my Brother,
Remember what Jesus said, "They shall all be taught of God." If english words have any meaning, and they do, the "all" means just that "all". Now, a teacher has thirty students all sitting there in a classroom, but not all are hearing and learning from the teacher. Lets suppose the teacher says, "I want you all to leave right now. Those that were hearing get up and leave and those that did not hear stay. They think those others are acting out of line but they are the ones out of line themselves. This is how it is with the gospel call.
Whosoever means whosoever, all means all and everyone means everyone.
As I said earlier there is no merit in faith itself but only in what faith holds. We are held and hold by our faith. God's grace is useless if there is no faith. This is the mystery of Godliness. Grace came first. Faith came as a result of hearing. They shall all be taught of God. Some were not listening. Some, who did listen, later decided to add the Law to their faith and fell from grace. What is so difficult about this? A child can understand it. What makes you think that because I believe this I somehow  merit this grace, when faith is just a response to the unmerited favor of God? Cain could have exercised faith, just as Abel did. Abel trusted, Cain did not. They were both taught of God. This is Bible 101.

All praise goes to God!

asaph

asaph,

This is where the dog knot is in these teachings, you espouse to.

You believe that those who are taught of God, can indeed fall out of grace, I don't!

The hypothetical you give, reveals where your error is.

They who are taught of God, believe God, and in doing so, God then gives them to the Son, the Holy Spirit, giving and equipping them, with everything necessary to comne to svaing faith in Jesus, (these are the things which we have been speaking of) trusting, believing, grace, faith, eternal life, being sealed by the Spirit of Truth.............growing in faith and so on.....etc.

From your vantage point, in being taught in this classroom, you already rest in unbelief, which contradicts the very words of Jesus, He says;  I give them eternal life, and threy shall never perish; you say they can fall out of grace, and perish.

From my vantage point, these whom you say can fall out of grace; I simply see, as never having possessed grace, beacuse of unbelief, afterall the same teaching is given to all, their belief  (and who knows what the object of their belief is)
is not mixed with faith, because they never received it.

This fits perfectly with the passage at Heb 6:4-6, wherein these, were privileged to sit under the tutelage of the Spirit of God, but in the end rejected the truth of the teaching, this is why they, can never be brought back to repentance.

The Faith which is of God, should produce understanding in Gods people, especially of these doctrines which are the basis for the foundation to ones own portion of the manner in which one builds, on the "foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" (Eph 2:20)

We have to accept one another as brethern in Christ, no matter how weak ones faith  may be, we share this things, to strengthen each other, so long as the brethern who declare themselves to be children of God, are not involved in giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; this takes discernment.

The teaching that the saved lose their salvation, borders on this very thing, and turns the Gospel of Grace into a Gospel of Grace and Works.

Because it practically denies, the blood that bought them.

Christians  who name the name of Christ need to take heed and depart from this evil thing.  I say this, because everything that is not of FAITH is sin.


God Bless,

Petro

[asaph]

Joh 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Petro,
You said-
You believe that those who are taught of God, can indeed fall out of grace, I don't!

Actually I believe that God teaches all people before they are in Grace in order that they might enter into Grace by faith.

As God teaches they either stop their ears or they hear and learn and thereby come unto Jesus.

Falling from Grace is possible only for those who are already in Grace. The Galatians are an example of this.

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:2  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Faith merits nothing. Faith is our response to Gods Grace. We wait for the hope of righteousness by faith not by works of the Law. Shipwreck your faith and see what happens. (actually God forbid that you shipwreck your faith). Would you want to be responsible for someone turning from faith to the Law? To fall from Grace is to cease trusting Jesus for our salvation and to attempt to keep it by observing the Law. So it is possible to loose our salvation. However why worry, cast your care on Jesus. Just quit trying and start trusting.

I praise you Father for showing these simple truths to both the ignorant and the intelligent. I put my trust in you for my complete salvation and do not rely one bit on my works. Thankyou for the Grace which is in Christ Jesus alone. Father if someone should try to get me to do some ceremony or be circumcised  in order to keep my saved status, I reject it outright; for you alone are my salvation!

asaph

[Petro]

Joh 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Petro,
You said-
You believe that those who are taught of God, can indeed fall out of grace, I don't!

Actually I believe that God teaches all people before they are in Grace in order that they might enter into Grace by faith.

As God teaches they either stop their ears or they hear and learn and thereby come unto Jesus.

Falling from Grace is possible only for those who are already in Grace. The Galatians are an example of this.

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:2  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

asaph,

I am amazed, what you say, you contradict yourself, from one sentence to the next;........  do you understand what these verse are saying??

Look closely at verse 4, above, this passage concurs with Rom 3:20, and the Apostle herein is pointing out that if you believe that because you must keep the law you are (will be) justified, you are fallen out of grace;  Now anyone who can hear the truth of the teaching of the Holy Spirit, is under grace, while God is drawning him to the truth, this is the whole point of Heb 6:4-6, and it is plain you understand this by your opening sentence;

you said:

Actually I believe that God teaches all people before they are in Grace in order that they might enter into Grace by faith

It is by Grace that God the Spirit,  teachs anybody anything, but this is the drawing of the Spirit.

Faith merits nothing.

What??; Faith is a gift given by God. Anbd is what is need to believe in Jesus, which one could never do without it.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  (Heb 11:1), without it noone can believe in Jesus; and our walk begins by faith unto faith.

Faith is our response to Gods Grace.

I am afraid I had other thoughts about you..

We wait for the hope of righteousness by faith not by works of the Law. Shipwreck your faith and see what happens.]/quote]

How does someone shipwreck his faith, please explain this to me.??  

Isn't it by believing he must observe the commandments perfectly??

(actually God forbid that you shipwreck your faith). Would you want to be responsible for someone turning from faith to the Law? To fall from Grace is to cease trusting Jesus for our salvation and to attempt to keep it by observing the Law. So it is possible to loose our salvation. However why worry, cast your care on Jesus. Just quit trying and start trusting.

It is clear to be you are unconscious to what you are writing,as if you are not reading your own text.

While you say, you believe your are saved by faith,only, you actually believe and teach,  you can lose your faith, by not observing the law, since it is transgression of the commandments, that cause you to fall from grace.

Now tell me, this is not true..

I praise you Father for showing these simple truths to both the ignorant and the intelligent. I put my trust in you for my complete salvation and do not rely one bit on my works. Thankyou for the Grace which is in Christ Jesus alone. Father if someone should try to get me to do some ceremony or be circumcised  in order to keep my saved status, I reject it outright; for you alone are my salvation!

So, tell me, how does one shipwreck his faith, while in Grace,
asaph.

If it is not, in keeping tha law, then why do you believe you can lose you salvation.

As for me trusting in the flesh??,  I think it is evident to you I am free, from such a teaching; My faith is in What He has done for me, forever, this is why I reject the idea anyone whom God saves, can ever fall from Grace, because we are held by His power unto the day of redemption, and I look forward to it, sharing this great truth, with whomsever will consider it.

God Bless,

Bro,


Petro

[asaph]

We can fall away by mixing works of the Law with Grace but can we fall away by mixing sin with Grace?  

Paul taught Christians the following:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (Rom. 8:13).
Some say this death is physical death, while others say it is spiritual death, like the kind Adam and Eve experienced after they sinned. Is there a way we can know for certain? By comparing Scripture with Scripture we can know what he is referring to. On three different occasions Paul taught Christians what would happen to them if they would live according to the flesh (or sinful nature)—the one just cited in Rom. 8:13 and the following two:
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21).
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life (Gal. 6:.

By comparing these passages, we can see that Paul warns Christians they will "die" by living according to the sinful nature (Rom. 8:13); "not inherit the kingdom of God" if they live out the acts of the sinful nature (Gal. 5:19-21) and "reap destruction" in contrast to "eternal life" by sowing to please the sinful nature (Gal. 6:. In other words, the "die" of Rom. 8:13 is the same as "not inherit[ing] the kingdom of God" in Gal. 5:19-21 and the "reap[ing of] destruction" of Gal. 6:8.
Hence, by comparing these Scriptures, we know Paul taught Christians they will "die" spiritually, if they live according to the sinful nature. James also declared the exact same truth:

But each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers (James 1:14-16).
This is also what God had informed mankind from the very beginning on down through the centuries:
And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" (Gen. 2:16,17).
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it (Ezek. 33:18).

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom. 6:16).

While sin leads to spiritual death, a faith in Jesus which produces holiness and obedience results in eternal life:
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:22,23).
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Rom 2:7).

... the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life (Gal. 6:.

Though this is what the original Christians taught and believed themselves, in our day the aforementioned truths have been opposed and flatly denied by the eternal security teachers. Friends, as James wrote, "Don't be deceived, my dear brothers" (1:14-16).

asaph

[Petro]

You are going around in circles, asaph.

No wonder you are unable to see the truths of what is written, you simply do not believe Jesus own words.

Everyone will be judged according to every word He ever spoke, are you aware of this?? (Deut 18:18-20)

According to your gospel, which you have delineated in this last post, you are saved by faith you produced, and its what you do which in the end determines whether you are saved, it is not a reality for you here and now..

Your opening sentence, appears to say something, but infact, doesn't say anything meaningfull, since you already agree, that by the observance of the Law, no one can be saved, and yet, you state, that you can fall away by mixing the law and grace, or sin and grace, both are one and the same,

The law is not of faith, and anything that is not of faith is sin.

Yet you say, one can fall away, by mixing them,

This and ;

Paul warns Christians they will "die" by living according to the sinful nature (Rom. 8:13);

This point, is not true, (this verse is speaking of them which do not possess the spirit, this is clear by what verse 5, says;

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;

And who are these  that mind the things of the flesh?? But they who are unsaved.

You are unable to unravel, what scriptuer appears to be saying, because you assume it is speaking about believers.

Roms 8
1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

From this point on, those who are spoken of that walk after the spirit are the children of God, and those whom are spoken of that go after the flesh are the unsaved.

Nut why am I trying to point this out to you, you should be able to comprehend this... by know.

Unfortunately you don't.

I guess, Jesus didn't die for all of your sins, just for a few of them, or was it because His blood was not sufficient to pay for them all??


Later,

Petro

[asaph]

According to your gospel, which you have delineated in this last post, you are saved by faith you produced, and its what you do which in the end determines whether you are saved, it is not a reality for you here and now..

Beloved Petro,
How did I produce faith? Faith came to me from hearing the Word. Just trust in the Word of God and live. Don't use His grace for an occasion for the flesh, or you will die. The wages of sin is death, whether you are a Christian or not. God is powerful, but He is not mocked.

Gal 6:7  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Were those words written to believers or not?

"Have faith in God." That is a general command to all. If faith were not available to all then the command is in vain for some.

Mat 8:5  And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6  And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7  And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8  The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9  For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10  When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Why did Jesus marvel? if faith comes to only those who are predestined to eternal life, as you say, and Jesus knows what is in man, and He knows those who are His, why did He marvel? There would have to be something in man that cooperates with the grace of God. Otherwise no marvel. Jesus said what He marveled about; we are not left in the dark:
I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Evidently the man heard the word along the way and believed with great faith in the grace of God. The possibility was there for him to doubt. What a marvel that he chose to believe instead!

asaph

[asaph]

Everyone will be judged according to every word He ever spoke, are you aware of this??

I certainly am. But thank God it won't be by the Calvinists or the Arminians.

asaph

[asaph]

Rom 8:12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Petro,
How can you say verse 13a refers to those who have never been saved when verse 12 says "brethren", and the "ye" of verse 13 points to "brethren" of verse 12? And how can something already dead die? Don't say it is physical death, there is no threat there; we are going to die physically regardless of the way we walk.

Blessings,

asaph