JONAH

[PhilMun]

Referring to Ninaveh assignment, DID JONAH DIE?

[Petro]

Referring to Ninaveh assignment, DID JONAH DIE?

Good question..

Jesus, says he did.

Common sense, and logic dictate, no man can live in the belly of a great fish, for three days and nights.

This great truth, reveals another one, God raised Jonah, from the dead also.

Jonah's own words, seem to conclude he died by his own testimony, see;

Jonah 2
2:1  Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2  And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3  For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4  Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5  The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6  I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7  When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8  They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9  But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10  And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Jonah, who is credited with writing this book, certainly would be in a more believable position  to testify concerning his condition, contrast vs 6 above with;

Peters words at;

Acts 2
22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


Jesus likened Jonahs experience to a sign, given to an believing and preverse generation, but had they known and believed, the scriptures tell us, they would never have caused
the Lord of Glory to be put to death. (1 Cor 2:6-8)

So, I doubt Jesus, would have used Jonah as an sign of His death, and resurrection, since if Jonah didn't die, it was no true sign at all.

Blessings,
Petro

[Petro]

Now I will quote Jonah 2, from the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH PUBLISHED by The Jewish Publication Society, Second Edition 1999.

It has been particularly helpful in clearing up, tough passages, where the greek word is clouded.  I lean towards the Hebrew-English translation moreso in these cases than the Wescott & Hort Greek Translation of 1881, on which the newer english versions are founded on.

According to sources, this is an excellent Hebrew-English Translation, and I use it for reference, to verify the context of verses and passages.

Jonah 2
The Lord provided a huge fish to swallow Jonah; and Jonah remained in the fish's belly three days and three nights.
2  Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish.
3  He said;

In my trouble I called to the Lord,
And He answered me;
From ther belly of sheol I cried out,
And you heard my voice.
4  You cast me into the depths,
Into the heart of the sea.
The floods engulfed me;
All your breakers and billows
Swept over me.
5  I thought I was driven away
Out of Your sight;
Would I gaze again
Upon your holy Temple?
6  The waters closed in over me.
The deep engulfed me.
Weeds twined around my head.
7  I sank to the base of the mountains;
The bars of the earth closed upon me forever.
Yet you brought my life up from the pit,
O lord my God!
8  When my life was ebbing away,
I called the Lord to mind;
And my prayer came before You,
Into your holy Temple.
9  They who cling to empty folly
Forsake their own welfare,
10  But, I with loud thanksgiving
Will sacrifice to You;
What I have vowed I will perform.
Deliverance is the Lord's!
11  The Lord commanded the fish, and it
spewed Jonah out upon dry land.

Note verse 8, Jonah says his life was "ebbing away".

The following has nothing to do with scripture or Jonah's and Jesus's death, but is just somehting I was thinking of,  from my days as an Emergency Medical Technician, when I worked in the Fire Service.

Science has classified death into two categories ;

There is a clinical death; this death is a type of death diagnosed with instruments outside of the Laboratory, for instance in the field, a stethescope, and penlight can be used to ascertain the first stages of what is known as "clinical death",people experienceing this form of death, can be resusitated (electric shock etc..) time is of the essence, since brain death begins at this point and severe brain damage can occur in the next 5 to 7 minutes unless successful ventilation and blood circulation is not established, people can be maintained with the help of machines in this condition indefinetly, and  this diagnosis when made, starts the clock ticking towards what is known as "biologiocal death" or "brain death" or after the formalities are taken care of  what is known as "legal death", "brain death occurs, when the brain cease to function, there is not hope for resuscitating such a patient.

In either case, once death begins to take its course, there is nothing the indiviual who is experiencing the symptom can do to reverse the death which is imminent and irreversible..  The only hope is outside intervention, whether it be  Gods providential hand in the matter, or  medical assistance.

Back to Jonah..............notice verse 3, Jonah says he was in the belly Sheol when he cried out to the Lord.

It sounds to me as though Jonah cried out to the Lord as he was dieing.

I would call your attention to Jesus's last words;

Jhn 19
30  ..................., It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Mk 15
37  And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Lk 23
46  And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Almost the same thing; Jesus cried out to God, and All agree He died.


Blessings,

Petro

[Whitehorse]

Jesus, says he did.

Hm. I hadn't heard of this before. I believe Jonah was a type of CHrist, as was David, but I think the barring in forever-he wasn't barred in forever. So I take this to mean he thought he would be. In the same way David didn't die, nor did Isaac actually, die, the testimony or prophecy behind it remains intact.
Moreover, it can happen. God is omnipotent. Besides, we have had survivors from the belly of a whale as late as the 1960's off the coast of Florida.

[Petro]

Posted by whitehorse as reply #3
I believe Jonah was a type of CHrist,

The Bible doesn't say anything about Jonah, being a type of Christ, this is someones ideas written in commentaries.

Jonah died, and was in the belly of the great  fish three days and three nights.

In the same way David didn't die, nor did Isaac actually, die,

The scriptures delcare that David died, Issac died, their bodies have long since corrupted, they will be raised in the due time.

May I call your attention to what the scriptures declare concerning David;

Acts 13
36  For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Speaking of his physical body.

David spoke of Jesus,

Acts 2
29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31  He seeing this before spake of the ressurection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


As for, your quote;

we have had survivors from the belly of a whale as late as the 1960's off the coast of Florida.

these are nothing more than myths, there is no evidence a man has ever survived in the belly of any kind of fish or whale, for three days and nights, except in scripture.
and his name was Jonah.

He lived to tell His story, because God raised him from the dead.

Blerssings,

Petro

[eyeball]

I think the greatest of the miracles concerning Jonah, was that he walked over 300 miles in 3 days. I mean, even without resting, that's over four miles an hour.

Eyeball

[preacherintraining]

I think the greatest of the miracles concerning Jonah, was that he walked over 300 miles in 3 days. I mean, even without resting, that's over four miles an hour.

Eyeball

i'd really be interested in hearing where you get your information.  first off it never says how big ninevah is.  second, jonah only walked one day's journey.  not three.

[eyeball]

Ah, I see my mistake. Thank you for keeping me honest. Now we do not have a miracle, but a verse that is inconsistant with archeology. From Jonah-

Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.

Jonah did not walk three days from the sea shore. That's originally what I thought. This part of the verse was describing Nineveh's diameter. At 20 miles a day, easily walked by a moderately healthy person, Nineveh would have been larger than Los Angeles. This would have probably been the largest city in the world, back then, and larger than most, if not all cities now.

Eyeball

[Whitehorse]

Posted by whitehorse as reply #3
I believe Jonah was a type of CHrist,

The Bible doesn't say anything about Jonah, being a type of Christ, this is someones ideas written in commentaries.

Actually, it does.
But He answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:39-40

Jonah died, and was in the belly of the great  fish three days and three nights.

In the same way David didn't die, nor did Isaac actually, die,

The scriptures delcare that David died, Issac died, their bodies have long since corrupted, they will be raised in the due time.

I'm referring to the propetic acts, such as when Isaac was about to be sacrificed, but the Lord provided a ram in the thicket. Isaac didn't die in the process of this prophetic act. David was a prophet, too, in the clearly messianic Psalm 22.
v1: My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?
v16:Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
v18: They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

Yet David was not crucified. This is prophecy-he was a type of Christ.

As for, your quote;

we have had survivors from the belly of a whale as late as the 1960's off the coast of Florida.

these are nothing more than myths, there is no evidence a man has ever survived in the belly of any kind of fish or whale, for three days and nights, except in scripture.
and his name was Jonah.

Negatives are hard to prove. Moreover, I'll look for the resource.

He lived to tell His story, because God raised him from the dead.

Blerssings,

Petro

The scriptures do not say this. In the same way Abraham and Isaac's prophetic act did not cost them their lives, and in the way David was not crucified in order to pen what is obviously a messianic Psalm 22, I see evidence only that Jonah thought he was barred in. But it does not say he died. Only that he had been swallowed.

Thank you; blessings to you as well.

[Petro]

whitehorse,

To deny that Jonah died, and was resurrected is to deny that Jesus died and rose from the dead, while making the point he (Jonah) was a type of christ and rejecting that Jonah died, you simply kill your own argument, bacause it removes the central point of the gosple, that Christ died]/b].

Abraham simply prophecied what he knew, and believed in his heart, it is spoken of in Heb 11:17-19.

David being a Prophet, prophecied words he himself would have understood, the significance of which were not revealed  to others, he knew that from his loins should the suffering Messiah  come and, sit on his throne forever.

The fact is, the sign of Jonah  which Jesus refered to, that he spent three days and nights in the fishes belly, is insignificant in itself, but add the death and resurrection to it, and now you have the the central teaching of the gosple

So, what I am saying is, that Jesus in using Jonah as an example of a sign from Himself, which is what they who sought Him desired was to be give them a sign, and He gave them a sign which perfectly exemplified the Gosple of the Lord  Jesus Christ.

They looked for the messiah, but they knew Him not.

This portion of the story, three days and night in the fishes belly are given as a sign likened to His three days and nights in the belly of the earth but, Jesus goes on to mention that Jonah preached and nineveh believed and repented, and that the generation that repented would rise in judgement with the generation Jesus spoke to condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah's ,

Then, Jesus emphasizes this last point when He says;  and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. (Mat 12:41)

This was the meat of the sign; that He the Son of God in the form of a man, had come to preach the Word of God.



Blessings,

Petro

[Whitehorse]

I do love the scriptures you chose, and we agree that Jonah was a type. But I'm still not seeing the scripture about Jonah's death. For him to live would not be removing any part of the gospel because the gospel is about Jesus, not Jonah.  Since it wasn't Jonah who actually paid the price for our sins, but Jesus, death would not be a requirement for Jonah. So for Jonah to live throughout his unwitting prophecy does not change the gospel at all, because it is only relevant that Jesus died. Jonah's job was to typify Jesus, not become Jesus. Several prophets typified Him but did not die physically to make these prophecies, much in the way that when we become Christians, we are baptized to display our symbolic death with Jesus, but we do not die physically to demonstrate our Christianity. So we identify with Him, but not through physical death as a testimony. (Of course we all die at some point, but not to identify with Christ, for it is written that God will destroy those who destroy His temple.)

And Jonah did in fact typify Jesus, as did David and Isaac, neither of whom died in the process of creating their prophecies. David was not crucified, and although Abraham trusted God to raise the son of promise, Isaac never died either on that altar. Yet the prophecy was still given by them. By the reasoning that Jonah had to die, so would David every time he wrote a messianic psalm. But God did not require that, nor are any of the prophecies denigrated by this fact. So unless scripture says Jonah died, I'm reluctant to adopt the view, but we do agree that Jonah was a prophet and a type of Jesus Christ.

Blessings to you.

[Petro]

I do love the scriptures you chose, and we agree that Jonah was a type. But I'm still not seeing the scripture about Jonah's death. For him to live would not be removing any part of the gospel because the gospel is about Jesus, not Jonah.  Since it wasn't Jonah who actually paid the price for our sins, but Jesus, death would not be a requirement for Jonah. So for Jonah to live throughout his unwitting prophecy does not change the gospel at all, because it is only relevant that Jesus died. Jonah's job was to typify Jesus, not become Jesus. Several prophets typified Him but did not die physically to make these prophecies, much in the way that when we become Christians, we are baptized to display our symbolic death with Jesus, but we do not die physically to demonstrate our Christianity. So we identify with Him, but not through physical death as a testimony. (Of course we all die at some point, but not to identify with Christ, for it is written that God will destroy those who destroy His temple.)

And Jonah did in fact typify Jesus, as did David and Isaac, neither of whom died in the process of creating their prophecies. David was not crucified, and although Abraham trusted God to raise the son of promise, Isaac never died either on that altar. Yet the prophecy was still given by them. By the reasoning that Jonah had to die, so would David every time he wrote a messianic psalm. But God did not require that, nor are any of the prophecies denigrated by this fact. So unless scripture says Jonah died, I'm reluctant to adopt the view, but we do agree that Jonah was a prophet and a type of Jesus Christ.

Blessings to you.

whitehorse,


Look, lets look at this from another angle.

When you talk about, David being a type of Christ, What does that mean? or Isaac, you admit neither died for anyones sin, Isaac, didn't even prophecy as David did, the scriptures call David a prophet of God, and they (scriptures) say nothing conrcerning Issac's experience.

So how is it they bothe can be considered Christ type??

When your thru explaining this, then lest consider Jonah, whom Jesus himself uses his experience, that of being swallowed by a great fish God had prepared, dying and resurrected by God, to prove he was sent by God to these people of nineveh.

My question is, how does your idea that Jonah not dying, make him a Christ type??

Since, if Jonah didn't die  as you have pointed out for no one, the sign wasn't just about a fish swallowing Jonah, it is about the will of God being brought to pass.

I am afraid you are simply echoing words you have read in some comentary, or someones opinions written in a book.

What does a Christ type mean to you..??


Petro

[Whitehorse]

A type of Christ is someone who, through a behavior, or perhaps a prophecy, is used to resemble someone they are not. If you look at Jonah's poem, there's no way you can read this carefully without seeing the prophecy. And the Matthew verse I gave confirms what should already be clear. God isn't required to make someone die to resemble Christ. If you read it, the prophecy is clear. In the same way baptism resembles our death with Christ, so Jonah's time in the whale, under water, identifies with the death of Christ. And the purpose is to testify to the Christ so that when future generations see the similarities, they will know God predicted it, and it will also identify the true Christ, the only one qualified to die for sins. It is a sign for our understanding, and faith.

I did explain Isaac a few posts back, and his part in identifying Christ.

No, I'm not echoing any commentary or text other than scripture, not that faithful commentaries are written for no reason. In fact, that 's the reason we debate, right? To learn from each other. To take a Berean spirit together as fellow Christians.  

Just as importantly, there are unbelievers here, looking for evidence of Christ's presence in our hearts. Let's skip the insults from now on.  

Blessings and peace to you.

[Petro]

A type of Christ is someone who, through a behavior, or perhaps a prophecy, is used to resemble someone they are not. If you look at Jonah's poem, there's no way you can read this carefully without seeing the prophecy. And the Matthew verse I gave confirms what should already be clear. God isn't required to make someone die to resemble Christ. If you read it, the prophecy is clear. In the same way baptism resembles our death with Christ, so Jonah's time in the whale, under water, identifies with the death of Christ. And the purpose is to testify to the Christ so that when future generations see the similarities, they will know God predicted it, and it will also identify the true Christ, the only one qualified to die for sins. It is a sign for our understanding, and faith.

I did explain Isaac a few posts back, and his part in identifying Christ.

No, I'm not echoing any commentary or text other than scripture, not that faithful commentaries are written for no reason. In fact, that 's the reason we debate, right? To learn from each other. To take a Berean spirit together as fellow Christians.  

Just as importantly, there are unbelievers here, looking for evidence of Christ's presence in our hearts. Let's skip the insults from now on.  

Blessings and peace to you.

whitehorsed,

You can reject the fact that Jonah died, and was resurrected
by the Spirit of God, to preach the Gosple of repentance to that generation at nineveh, if you insist.

The fact is, that generation, will sit in Judgement with Jonah, on the generation Jesus spoke these words to at Mat 12.

In the same way baptism resembles our death with Christ, so Jonah's time in the whale, under water, identifies with the death of Christ. And the purpose is to testify to the Christ so that when future generations see the similarities, they will know God predicted it, and it will also identify the true Christ, the only one qualified to die for sins. It is a sign for our understanding, and faith.

This is a cut and pasted explantion from the "christ types" page of your commentary.

There is some truth to it, water Baptism, does resemble the death and resurrection of Christ, and one could stretch this idea and make it fit, Jonah's time in the belly of the fish.

But let's be honest, you probably never thought about this great truth (that Jonah died and was resurrected ), and it is understandable why you would reject it, since it would need you to accomodate it into your gosple, but to reject the truth of this matter outright doesn't do your theory justice.

Physically, it is impossible for man to survive in the belly of a fish (any fish) for any length of time, let alone three days and nights, since there are certain requirements for flesh to survive in such and evironment, so the answer would still rest in the fact that God, sustained Jonah's life for the duration and it was by his Spirit the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the grave that brought Jonah up and out of the deep, I think this is where your thinking is clouded, and woukld rather deny physical truths, in favor of your theory.

Either way, it doesn't matter to me., if you accept it or not, it is clear Jonah, had an experience, no man could live thru, and it was by the power of God, he was able to accomplish what he had refused to do, in the begining;  furthermore, God prepared the hearts of the people to accept the preaching of Jonah.

The sign of Jonah spending three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, must have had a signifcance to both the ninevehites and the Jews, whom Jesus spoke to at Mat 12.

And it wasn't just that Jonah was a christ like character, since they didn't believe in the Christ.


Blessings

Petro

Jesus,

[Whitehorse]

Petro, the truth is, there is absolutely no scriptural basis for the idea that he died. Your responses seem mostly pointed at me-you think it's a new idea for me, that I've been reading commentaries-which isn't such a bad idea, by the way, as long as it's faithful. I'd recommend Matthew Henry & Matthew Poole for starters. Anyway, these are what are called cosmetic arguments-they don't have anything to do with scriptural proof that Jonah died. Attacking the person you're talking to isn't going to provide this proof-it only detracts from the holiness that our discussions and learning are supposed to be fostering.

You made a comment that the baptism illustration was stretching something, but in order for this argument to be credible, you have to demonstrate exactly how, which will be difficult since there is no scriptural basis for the position being argued. In fact, baptism is a point for point illustration. We are talking about identifying with Christ and you made an argument that one cannot identify with Christ without dying. In fact you went so far as to say that for Jonah not to die, it would take actually something away from the gospel, which has nothing to do with Jonah at all, but Jesus Christ.

How do you know someone cannot survive in the belly of a whale? Because a lot of skeptics forked off their unbelieving speculations as scientific fact? The source I was telling you about was from an actual newspaper. I have to dig through a lot of material to find it, but find it I will, so just be patient. But more importantly, you can only speculate this. Not to mention you're dealing with a God who raises the dead, and happens to be merciful. "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." He doesn't order his servants into their own deaths unless it is absolutely necessary. But as I said, there is a reliable source that proves it does happen sometimes. The guy is reported to have emerged with bleached skin and no eyebrows, but he did survive. Again, negatives are very hard to prove.

Just out of curiosity, where did you get the idea that Jonah died in the whale?

Blessings to you.