Does Election necessarily mean Rejection?

[aw]

There has always been this debate that election/predestination/foreknowledge means God picked out some for heaven and others fpr perdition before they were ever born.

I was just wondewring if, while God elected some, "ALL" who come to Him He will in no wise cast out. Or restated, election does not mean rejection of anyone because He has said that He is not willing that any should perish.

aw

[Heidi]

Those whom God has preordained to come to Him will never be rejected.  If you have the desire, you have been chosen because Christ said that He who seeks will find. That's a fact. The ones who have no desire will have lost nothing. But they also have nothing but they think they do and they are content with that.

[Left Coast]

The fact is ALL would perish.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God does not predestinate any one to Hell we are all going there unless God rescues us.
It is an amazing thing because there is nothing we can do to rescue our selves. And none of us deserve to be rescued.
Sure we can throw ourselves on the mercy of God and we can search Him out in the scripture but salvation is totally His choice.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
If it was Gods will He could save everyone because we cannot resist His will:

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Our salvation is completely Gods mercy and nothing of our will (freewill) can save us:

Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[Heidi]

I do believe in predestination, however, because Revelations was written. There are certain things that are simply going to happen and we cannot alter prophecy. God knows the heart of every man and as Jesus explains in the gospel of John, He cannot come into the hearts of those who will not understand. God has definite reasons for hardening some people's hearts. If He sent the Holy Spirit into everyone's heart, then the world couldn't see the depth of sin, and therefore we wouldn't understand the depth of Grace.

[John the Baptist]

The GodHead created ALL of His creation with free will. They knew what each individual would FREELY choose. And They  knew what ones would not choose to develope a character through the provision's that all of their creation had available to them. The verse by Christ is ETERNAL GOSPEL, that without me ye can do nothing.

ALL had & have the same FREE opportunity to Mature in Christ. Forknowledge of the GodHead does not effect ones salvation either way, the CHOICE IS OURS TO MAKE! (They just knew the outcome in advance) Even the Gentile ones of Rom. 2:14-15!

[Ralph]

  The hardening of people's hearts which someone spoke of--
This is not an active work of God, yet He is involved in it in a passive sense. In the first chapter of Romans and elsewhere in Scripture we see God restraining the evil which resides in the hearts of men. He does this not because men deserve that help, but out of kindness (or common grace) lest
they and the world be overwhelmed by hearts which are "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." His common grace restraining that evil is the reason people cannot realize the depths of iniquity to which their nature would take them "who can know it?" If He withholds that restraint (which common grace no man is deserving of) the person straightway falls from the weight of their own nature.

[Heidi]

I happen to think that God is more powerful than we humans. The bible, and expecially Jesus, talks about God hardening people's hearts. I cannot believe of my own "free will". It is the Holy Spirit that enables me to believe. The Holy Spirit comes from God, not me. Trying to understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit is like trying to understand another language without an interpreter. Our "free will" comes from our biochemistry, the people we knew (or didn't know) as children, the era in which we live, etc. and whether or not God has chosen us. I do not believe those are free choices. What the bible means by free will is that God had to provide two ways for us to go. He had to provide a temptor that we have no power to resist, and the Holy Spirit. The only person who can resist the devil is the Holy Spirit. He has those two roads to show us why one is better. Our "decisions" come from what rules us at the time.

[John the Baptist]

I happen to think that God is more powerful than we humans. The bible, and expecially Jesus, talks about God hardening people's hearts. I cannot believe of my own "free will". It is the Holy Spirit that enables me to believe. The Holy Spirit comes from God, not me. Trying to understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit is like trying to understand another language without an interpreter. Our "free will" comes from our biochemistry, the people we knew (or didn't know) as children, the era in which we live, etc. and whether or not God has chosen us. I do not believe those are free choices. What the bible means by free will is that God had to provide two ways for us to go. He had to provide a temptor that we have no power to resist, and the Holy Spirit. The only person who can resist the devil is the Holy Spirit. He has those two roads to show us why one is better. Our "decisions" come from what rules us at the time.

****
Hay, you can believe what you want! (no static from this end)
But pertaining to the post of mine at least, I included that CHRIST STATED AN EVERLASTING GOSPREL TRUTH! That "WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" And now about the FREEDOM of being TESTED. Why test a perfect creation???
And did God COMPELL Adam & Eve to EAT of the FORBIDDEN FRUIT in the [MIDST OF THE GARDEN?] Not POSSIBLE!

And read Gen. 4:7? Did God not tell Cain that.. "IF THOU DOEST WELL, WILL THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED?" If you tell me that he could not have done otherwise, then, you too have made your decision for now at least. Notice that Cain had a new 'DESIRE' [after he made] a bad [MATURE FATAL DECISION]. Not before.

---John
******

[Reba]

 Ralph,


Exodus 7:13
13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
KJV

Exodus 9:12
12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
KJV

Exodus 10:20
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
KJV

Exodus 10:27
27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
KJV

Deuteronomy 2:30
30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
KJV

Isaiah 63:17
17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
KJV

John 12:40
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
KJV

[John the Baptist]

Just a question. Has any every been a rebel before they became a christian? Had you ever openly violated the law of God? Do you remember how easy it was after you did the same sin over & over again? Lieing becomes easy! Stealing also is not bothersome! (unless one is caught)

Well, the first time the conscience is tender & the Holy Spirit can convict us of the sin. But as one continues on & on, the Holy Spirit is grived & quinched & it becomes harder & harder for God to reach us! This is what God means about His taking the rape for the hardening of ones heart.

Another example is seen in Rev. 3:16-17. There is NO condemnation against Laodicea's profession, yet THEIR LOVE IS SICK! And Christ said that they WILL BE SPEWED OUT! (fact) The Holy Spirit COULD NOT REACH THEM! They were BLIND, and NAKED OF CHRIST ROBE OF RIGHTOUSNESS! What was the basic bottom line problem? They were HEARD HEARTED! LOVE WAS THERE, YET IT WAS 'LUKEWARM'!

Then NOTICE that even the COLD COULD BE REACHED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE THESE LUKEWARM ONES!! Now, did God harden their hearts?  No way! Yet, He takes the heat for ALLOWING His creation FREE WILL! If you don't think so, read the many posts that we are ROBOTS with NO FREE WILL!

[Whitehorse]

This is a concern for a lot of people who are coming to Christ or find themselves in an unusually difficult situation. God will never cast out those who come to Him, but some choose to walk away from Him. It happens for several reasons-cares of this world, sin, whatever people decide to seek other than the Lord. But it's true-if you come to God, He will never cast you out.

Oops-almost forgot to mention-God's sovereignty is what protects you. Otherwise none of us would seek Him. If you feel inclined to seek Him, you can bet that's from the Lord. It's a gift, so enjoy it, relish it, and guard it like you would any precious jewel!

[Left Coast]

ALL had & have the same FREE opportunity to Mature in Christ. Forknowledge of the GodHead does not effect ones salvation either way, the CHOICE IS OURS TO MAKE! (They just knew the outcome in advance) Even the Gentile ones of Rom. 2:14-15!

Romans 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Romans 2 is only telling us we know right from wrong. We know most of the sins in our heart. And so many people who know nothing about God will live decent lives. My father was one such person. He lived his life to better mankind, he was kind and fair and more Christian than many who claim Christ. Yet unless God had mercy and saved him on his deathbed it is not likely that he will live with Christ.
How can someone accept Christ of their own freewill when they have never heard of Christ?

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Acts 26:16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Acts 26:17  Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

If Jesus told Paul that he needed to go to the Gentiles to open their eyes to receive forgiveness for their sins then how is it possible for someone who has never heard the gospel to become saved?

Acts 15:7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
 
To go even further how could a baby make that freewill decision.

God does restrain sin because if He did not we would destroy ourselves we are that bad off.
God gives people up to their sin I think that is what happens when He hardens someone’s heart.

Romans 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Any salvation plan that requires us to do something would be unfair unrighteous and unjust. Because salvation would be dependent on us, some people would have an unfair advantage. Those that were raised in a Christian society would have an advantage over those raised in a Hindu or Muslim or Pagan society.
It cannot be because we are born with the knowledge Christ is the savior in our heart. If this was true There would be the same percentage of believers in every society.  

No one will come to Him in truth unless He draws them. And everyone He draws Will become saved:

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 
Remember the paralyzed man in Mark? His friends lowered him down through the roof so Jesus could heal him. Instead Jesus forgave him his sins. He didn’t ask for forgiveness there was no freewill choice involved.

[Reba]

Just a question. Has any every been a rebel before they became a christian? Had you ever openly violated the law of God? Do you remember how easy it was after you did the same sin over & over again? Lieing becomes easy! Stealing also is not bothersome! (unless one is caught)

Well, the first time the conscience is tender & the Holy Spirit can convict us of the sin. But as one continues on & on, the Holy Spirit is grived & quinched & it becomes harder & harder for God to reach us! This is what God means about His taking the rape for the hardening of ones heart.

Another example is seen in Rev. 3:16-17. There is NO condemnation against Laodicea's profession, yet THEIR LOVE IS SICK! And Christ said that they WILL BE SPEWED OUT! (fact) The Holy Spirit COULD NOT REACH THEM! They were BLIND, and NAKED OF CHRIST ROBE OF RIGHTOUSNESS! What was the basic bottom line problem? They were HEARD HEARTED! LOVE WAS THERE, YET IT WAS 'LUKEWARM'!

Then NOTICE that even the COLD COULD BE REACHED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE THESE LUKEWARM ONES!! Now, did God harden their hearts?  No way! Yet, He takes the heat for ALLOWING His creation FREE WILL! If you don't think so, read the many posts that we are ROBOTS with NO FREE WILL!

Harder and harder for GOD to reach us? Who is man  that he can make things HARD for GOD? Is GOD weak, feable, or powerless against man? NO! HE is GOD , GOD of the earth ,GOD of Salvation ,GOD of all creation. I was dead in sin dead HE made me alive! He waited for Lazerus to be dead  real dead to the point of stinking, as i was.  THEN HE called him forth. Lazerus was, shell we say, hard dead.    



Rev 3:14-19
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
KJV

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
KJV

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV

Where does the scripture say what you said it says?
 

The Holy Spirit COULD NOT REACH THEM!

Who is man  that he can limit the very SPIRIT of GOD?

[Heidi]

First of all, if Eve were perfect, she wouldn't have eaten the apple in the first place. None of us is omnipotent or omniscient. We are not bigger than the Holy Spirit or the devil. We respond to both. We want to believe we are in control of the universe which is, of course, the sin of pride. We also want to believe we have the power to do anything. Jesus said that He could do nothing without the Father. He was pefectly content to give the credit to God. Why do we want to think that we can do anything of our own free will? Why do we want to think that nothing affects us?

Our "decisions" come from what rules us at the time. I can remember wanting to believe in Jesus but i didn't understand His words. They were like another language. They didn't make sense to me without the Holy Spirit. The disciples were in the same quandry. It wasn't until pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit that they gave up their lives for Him.

[aw]

Thanks to all for responding.

I don't believe that anyone will ever stand before God and declare, "You know I really wanted salvation but I was not elected/predestined to it."

aw