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felix102
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« on: July 15, 2004, 01:24:11 AM »

I thought I'd post this to clear the confusion over homosexuality, gay priests, being born gay, etc.

People ARE NOT BORN GAY. They are born celebate. But, no one is exempt from sexual sin. A heterosexual, for instance, can commit adultery or fornication. Celebates can also commit a sexual sin by engaging in an unnatural relationship with the same sex.

Is there such thing as a gay priest?... or gay person? Not at all! What we have confused is celebate characteristics (ie the way a 'gay' person talks) to the state of being a person who has commited a sin by engaging in an unnatural relationship with the same sex through dating or gotcha146.

Just because a person has "gay" characteristics DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE SINNED. Only when this TYPE of person gives into sexual temptation is the person commiting a sin by engaging in homosexuality.

So people are not born gay, they are born celebate.

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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2004, 01:36:59 AM »

 I agree. People aren't born homosexual.
God would not cause someone to be born with something that would cause them to lose their salvation. It's a choice, not an affliction that people inherit.

Bronzesnake
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His_child
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2004, 01:46:05 AM »

I agree.
Homosexuality is a choice.
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2004, 01:56:01 AM »

I agree.
Homosexuality is a choice.

I agree with you as well.
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ravenloche
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2004, 01:43:22 PM »

I agree.
Homosexuality is a choice.

good statement, and one that I wholeheartedly agree with:
there is a small problem however! We can forever state our
opinion, and /or beliefs; but if we do not provide the scriptural
basis for our statements/beliefs are we doing any effective
ministering?

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any
twoedged sword--our opinions are dull as butter knives
without the living word to validate, and verify our teachings.

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

ravenloche

       
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if not you, who? if not now, when?
if not here, where? if it is to be it is up to me!
John 3:17 for he came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world thru him might be saved! Rom 8:1 there is therefore no con-
demnation to those who are in
christ Jesus...
felix102
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2004, 02:09:24 PM »

Yeah, I was going to find the verse, but I couldn't find it then and there when I first wrote this...so here it is:

Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Now, this does not say people are born gay. To "not lie with a man as a one lies with a woman" is an action, an action that is detestable to the lord. When you call someone homosexual, gay, fag, or queer that is equivalent to calling anyone else a thief (if they have stolen), adulterer (if they have commited adultery), murderer (if they have murdered), slanderer (if they have slandered), blasphemer (if they have blasphemed), and sinner (if they have sinned).

Homosexuality is a choice just as much as sinning is a choice or murdering is a choice. When we see a man lie with another man, they have commited a sin known as homosexuality...They ARE NOT HOMOSEXUALS.

There is also something else I am looking for. I know it was either found in the word or revealed to me in some other way where Jesus said, "because they were born that way." I believe this was what lead me to this truth, and I have not yet come across that again. I know its somewhere in the bible.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2004, 02:33:49 PM by felix102 » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2004, 03:11:57 PM »

I think maybe Ravenloche was looking for some scriptural citations concerning whether or not man was made one way or the other, rather than scripture stating that homosexual relations are bad.

Genesis 1 and 2 would be a good place to start.

"and God made man, and saw that it was good" contrast to the Leviticus verse of that being "not good", which is the same abominable.

"for this cause God made him an helpmeet", and her name was Eve, not Steve.

Rom 1:24   Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25   Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Lust->uncleaness->dishonour->calling white black and truth a lie->loving self.
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BroHank
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2004, 05:35:27 PM »

We are all born sinners,

1st Corinthians 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

If you care for my interpretation of this text, ONCE you are washed by the blood of the lamb, sanctified so to speak, Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ--YOU CAN NO LONGER HOLD THESE TITLES.  You ARE Christ's

So, there IS no such thing as a homosexual preist BECAUSE God takes that title away and covers you with His Title.  You are God's.  You belong to God and He has taken away the shame and any names people might call you.

You can therefore say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but those names no longer apply to me!""

So, even if you don't find that scripture where you think it says that folks are born homosexuals, we do know we are born sinners, but when we are washed in the blood of the lamb, we are no longer to be called sinners.

And that's the way I see it.

Peace
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Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you would include not finding your neighbor's biggest fault and then harping on it as if it were your mission.
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2004, 06:38:06 PM »

ravenloche,
Hi! Good to see you backl!  Cheesy


Candace,
Are you saying that if a pastor is an admitting practicing homosexual, that it's okay if he's preaching?  Huh
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2004, 08:18:52 PM »

We are all born sinners,

1st Corinthians 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

If you care for my interpretation of this text, ONCE you are washed by the blood of the lamb, sanctified so to speak, Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ--YOU CAN NO LONGER HOLD THESE TITLES.  You ARE Christ's

So, there IS no such thing as a homosexual preist BECAUSE God takes that title away and covers you with His Title.  You are God's.  You belong to God and He has taken away the shame and any names people might call you.

You can therefore say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but those names no longer apply to me!""

So, even if you don't find that scripture where you think it says that folks are born homosexuals, we do know we are born sinners, but when we are washed in the blood of the lamb, we are no longer to be called sinners.

And that's the way I see it.

Peace

 Yes - we are all born sinners. We are suceptable to temptation - but we still choose to sin. We have a choice whenever we sin. When I was a child, my friend stole a chocolate bar from the store we were at. he prompted me to steal one also. I almost took one, but I chose not to.

Many people mistakenly believe that once we become Christians, we can continue to do anything we please because the bible says "we were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God"

 However - Jesus says we must repent of ours sins, and sin no more. When He forgave the prostitute of adultery - He specifically told her not to commit that sin again...

 Jhn 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?  

Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 When Jesus healed, and forgave the lame man near the pool - He gave him a stern warning...

Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

 Lest a worse thing come unto thee.

 People are not born 'homosexual' or 'adulterers' they are born sinners. We choose our sins. God does not cause anyone to be born a homosexual, nor a theif, nor an adulterer. He wouldn't cause us to be born with an affliction which would cost us our salvation.

 Unbelievers will die in their sins. Believers must repent of their sins. Jesus says it is so.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.  

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 What God says about Homosexuality...

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:31-32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1 Tim 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

2 Tim 3:2-4
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

To Continue...
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2004, 08:31:32 PM »

 Sodom and Gomorrha:    

Gen 19:4-9But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back...

Eze 16:49-50 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Deu 29:23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

Isa 3:9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

Jer 50:40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.

Amos 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

 What did Jesus say about it?

Luke 17:28-29 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 SODOMITE
Originally a citizen of the town of Sodom, one of the cities of the plain near the Dead Sea (Gen 13:12). The term came to mean a male who has sexual relations with another male. The wickedness of Sodom became proverbial (see Gen. 19:1-11). From the Holman Bible Dictionary:

 Names for Homosexuals in the Bible:

 
Rom 1:26vile affections    
Rom 1:31 without natural affection  
1 Cor 6:9  effeminate  
1 Cor 6:9 abusers of themselves with mankind  
Col 3:5 inordinate affection
1 Tim 1:10  defile themselves with mankind  
2 Tim 3:3 without natural affection  
Jude 1:7 going after strange flesh  
Deu 23:17  Sodomite  

The Sin of Homosexuality Can be Overcome and Forgiven:              

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 Such were some of you. Only through repentance will we inherit the Kingdom of God. Once we accept Jesus into our lives we are cleaned and forgiven of our sins. However - we mus repent. We must not continue in our sins. This is biblical.

Bronzesnake
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Gracey
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2004, 08:40:30 PM »

Quote
I agree. People aren't born homosexual.
God would not cause someone to be born with something that would cause them to lose their salvation. It's a choice, not an affliction that people inherit

Bronzesnake, generally I tend to agree with most of your thoughts, but I do have a question; and, perhaps, a statement.

It's not as simple as that, is it?

What about the case of hermaphrodites? They are born with two sexes into one body and there are cases where as a child the physical body was made (surgically) female. When the person grew to adulthood, their mind and emotions were male. That emotional male would desire a woman as a mate, yet was encased in a woman's body.

In this situation, that person would be "gay", no?  That person does have, of course, the choice to remain celibate, and these cases are somewhat rare.

In this case, would the original person have been made in the image of God?

I find this a most confusing issue. Not whether or not homosexuality is wrong (it is), but whether or not they are born that way. My thinking had always been that if we are created in the "image" of God, then they could not be born that way. But, some are, given the situation I noted above.

In truth, I think that "wrong" gender issue could be "pinned" on man, and not God, since it was the working of man that "feminized" the person.

What are your thoughts on something like this? I have been struggling for some time with trying to reconcile this.

Gracey
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2004, 09:05:19 PM »

 Hello Gracey.

 That is a difficult one my friend. It is extremely rare. However - as I understand the issue - the decision as to which gender to surgically implement, is based on which gender seems to be the dominant one.

 I believe that in the scenario you pointed out "They are born with two sexes into one body and there are cases where as a child the physical body was made (surgically) female. When the person grew to adulthood, their mind and emotions were male."
 God would show His mercy by accepting the true feelings and emotions of the person in that predicament, and allow the person to change sexes.

 I'm not really debating that situation. I'm talking about a man lusting after another man, or a female lusting after a female. I think there is a huge difference.

Bronzesnake.
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Gracey
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2004, 09:18:48 PM »

Quote
I'm not really debating that situation. I'm talking about a man lusting after another man, or a female lusting after a female. I think there is a huge difference.

Yes, there is, I agree with you; this just seemed like an appropriate place to ask the question.

Not many people want to discuss something like this, and I have been much frustrated in trying to come to grips with my own feelings of confusion. Thanks for your thoughts.

Gracey
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2004, 01:47:00 AM »

Quote
I'm not really debating that situation. I'm talking about a man lusting after another man, or a female lusting after a female. I think there is a huge difference.

Yes, there is, I agree with you; this just seemed like an appropriate place to ask the question.

Not many people want to discuss something like this, and I have been much frustrated in trying to come to grips with my own feelings of confusion. Thanks for your thoughts.

Gracey

 Hey, I'll discuss anything in relation to the Bible.

 "I have been much frustrated in trying to come to grips with my own feelings of confusion"

 What do you mean my friend?

Bronzesnake.
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