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I thought I'd post this to clear the confusion over homosexuality, gay priests, being born gay, etc.

People ARE NOT BORN GAY. They are born celebate. But, no one is exempt from sexual sin. A heterosexual, for instance, can commit adultery or fornication. Celebates can also commit a sexual sin by engaging in an unnatural relationship with the same sex.

Is there such thing as a gay priest?... or gay person? Not at all! What we have confused is celebate characteristics (ie the way a 'gay' person talks) to the state of being a person who has commited a sin by engaging in an unnatural relationship with the same sex through dating or gotcha146.

Just because a person has "gay" characteristics DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE SINNED. Only when this TYPE of person gives into sexual temptation is the person commiting a sin by engaging in homosexuality.

So people are not born gay, they are born celebate.

 I agree. People aren't born homosexual.
God would not cause someone to be born with something that would cause them to lose their salvation. It's a choice, not an affliction that people inherit.

Bronzesnake

I agree.
Homosexuality is a choice.

I agree with you as well.

I agree.
Homosexuality is a choice.

good statement, and one that I wholeheartedly agree with:
there is a small problem however! We can forever state our
opinion, and /or beliefs; but if we do not provide the scriptural
basis for our statements/beliefs are we doing any effective
ministering?

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any
twoedged sword--our opinions are dull as butter knives
without the living word to validate, and verify our teachings.

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

ravenloche

       

Yeah, I was going to find the verse, but I couldn't find it then and there when I first wrote this...so here it is:

Leviticus 18:22
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Now, this does not say people are born gay. To "not lie with a man as a one lies with a woman" is an action, an action that is detestable to the lord. When you call someone homosexual, gay, fag, or queer that is equivalent to calling anyone else a thief (if they have stolen), adulterer (if they have commited adultery), murderer (if they have murdered), slanderer (if they have slandered), blasphemer (if they have blasphemed), and sinner (if they have sinned).

Homosexuality is a choice just as much as sinning is a choice or murdering is a choice. When we see a man lie with another man, they have commited a sin known as homosexuality...They ARE NOT HOMOSEXUALS.

There is also something else I am looking for. I know it was either found in the word or revealed to me in some other way where Jesus said, "because they were born that way." I believe this was what lead me to this truth, and I have not yet come across that again. I know its somewhere in the bible.

I think maybe Ravenloche was looking for some scriptural citations concerning whether or not man was made one way or the other, rather than scripture stating that homosexual relations are bad.

Genesis 1 and 2 would be a good place to start.

"and God made man, and saw that it was good" contrast to the Leviticus verse of that being "not good", which is the same abominable.

"for this cause God made him an helpmeet", and her name was Eve, not Steve.

Rom 1:24   Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25   Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Lust->uncleaness->dishonour->calling white black and truth a lie->loving self.

We are all born sinners,

1st Corinthians 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.  

If you care for my interpretation of this text, ONCE you are washed by the blood of the lamb, sanctified so to speak, Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ--YOU CAN NO LONGER HOLD THESE TITLES.  You ARE Christ's

So, there IS no such thing as a homosexual preist BECAUSE God takes that title away and covers you with His Title.  You are God's.  You belong to God and He has taken away the shame and any names people might call you.

You can therefore say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but those names no longer apply to me!""

So, even if you don't find that scripture where you think it says that folks are born homosexuals, we do know we are born sinners, but when we are washed in the blood of the lamb, we are no longer to be called sinners.

And that's the way I see it.

Peace

ravenloche,
Hi! Good to see you backl!  :D


Candace,
Are you saying that if a pastor is an admitting practicing homosexual, that it's okay if he's preaching?  ???

 Yes - we are all born sinners. We are suceptable to temptation - but we still choose to sin. We have a choice whenever we sin. When I was a child, my friend stole a chocolate bar from the store we were at. he prompted me to steal one also. I almost took one, but I chose not to.

Many people mistakenly believe that once we become Christians, we can continue to do anything we please because the bible says "we were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God"

 However - Jesus says we must repent of ours sins, and sin no more. When He forgave the prostitute of adultery - He specifically told her not to commit that sin again...

 Jhn 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?  

Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 When Jesus healed, and forgave the lame man near the pool - He gave him a stern warning...

Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

 Lest a worse thing come unto thee.

 People are not born 'homosexual' or 'adulterers' they are born sinners. We choose our sins. God does not cause anyone to be born a homosexual, nor a theif, nor an adulterer. He wouldn't cause us to be born with an affliction which would cost us our salvation.

 Unbelievers will die in their sins. Believers must repent of their sins. Jesus says it is so.

Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.  

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 What God says about Homosexuality...

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:31-32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1 Tim 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

2 Tim 3:2-4 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

To Continue...

 Sodom and Gomorrha:    

Gen 19:4-9But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back...

Eze 16:49-50 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Deu 29:23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:

Isa 3:9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

Jer 50:40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.

Amos 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

 What did Jesus say about it?

Luke 17:28-29 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 SODOMITE
Originally a citizen of the town of Sodom, one of the cities of the plain near the Dead Sea (Gen 13:12). The term came to mean a male who has sexual relations with another male. The wickedness of Sodom became proverbial (see Gen. 19:1-11). From the Holman Bible Dictionary:

 Names for Homosexuals in the Bible:

 
Rom 1:26vile affections    
Rom 1:31 without natural affection  
1 Cor 6:9  effeminate  
1 Cor 6:9 abusers of themselves with mankind  
Col 3:5 inordinate affection
1 Tim 1:10  defile themselves with mankind  
2 Tim 3:3 without natural affection  
Jude 1:7 going after strange flesh  
Deu 23:17  Sodomite  

The Sin of Homosexuality Can be Overcome and Forgiven:              

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 Such were some of you. Only through repentance will we inherit the Kingdom of God. Once we accept Jesus into our lives we are cleaned and forgiven of our sins. However - we mus repent. We must not continue in our sins. This is biblical.

Bronzesnake

Bronzesnake, generally I tend to agree with most of your thoughts, but I do have a question; and, perhaps, a statement.

It's not as simple as that, is it?

What about the case of hermaphrodites? They are born with two sexes into one body and there are cases where as a child the physical body was made (surgically) female. When the person grew to adulthood, their mind and emotions were male. That emotional male would desire a woman as a mate, yet was encased in a woman's body.

In this situation, that person would be "gay", no?  That person does have, of course, the choice to remain celibate, and these cases are somewhat rare.

In this case, would the original person have been made in the image of God?

I find this a most confusing issue. Not whether or not homosexuality is wrong (it is), but whether or not they are born that way. My thinking had always been that if we are created in the "image" of God, then they could not be born that way. But, some are, given the situation I noted above.

In truth, I think that "wrong" gender issue could be "pinned" on man, and not God, since it was the working of man that "feminized" the person.

What are your thoughts on something like this? I have been struggling for some time with trying to reconcile this.

Gracey

 Hello Gracey.

 That is a difficult one my friend. It is extremely rare. However - as I understand the issue - the decision as to which gender to surgically implement, is based on which gender seems to be the dominant one.

 I believe that in the scenario you pointed out "They are born with two sexes into one body and there are cases where as a child the physical body was made (surgically) female. When the person grew to adulthood, their mind and emotions were male."
 God would show His mercy by accepting the true feelings and emotions of the person in that predicament, and allow the person to change sexes.

 I'm not really debating that situation. I'm talking about a man lusting after another man, or a female lusting after a female. I think there is a huge difference.

Bronzesnake.

Yes, there is, I agree with you; this just seemed like an appropriate place to ask the question.

Not many people want to discuss something like this, and I have been much frustrated in trying to come to grips with my own feelings of confusion. Thanks for your thoughts.

Gracey

 Hey, I'll discuss anything in relation to the Bible.

 "I have been much frustrated in trying to come to grips with my own feelings of confusion"

 What do you mean my friend?

Bronzesnake.

I know. I'm trying to look for that right now. I just remember that Jesus said something like, "they were just born that way" in regards of a woman who couldn't find a husband. I believe this is somewhere in the word. I can't find it though.  :(  Maybe it was just my imagination. But long ago, this was what lead me to this belief or opinion.

John 13

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

I've see so many hundreds of thousands of times people think Christ's words are "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you JUDGE one another."

Does anyone, at the end of the day sit around thinking, "Lord all day today I have not sinned."

I doubt it.  And yet, if they didn't in fact sin all day, but then thought a thought like then, then their sin would be self-righteousness.  None of us makes it through the day without sinning.

To stand around and sit around and insistently judge each other is not how Christ wants us to show the world that we are his.

Everyone seems to think that if they don't take a judging posture on things, if they don't make judgments about anybody and everybody, then they are not in Christ.  For example, if you hang out with a sinner and you don't sit in judgment on them 24 hours a day, you think that you do not belong to Christ.  

It's enough to know what the laws are so we can measure OURSELVES against them and then pursue our God in trying to please Him in what WE can do internally and externally.  But we do not please God when we sit in judgment and condemnation on others.  If they ask us for guidence, we can show them the scriptures--even if they don't outright ask in a way that says, "Dude, I need guidence."  But I do think it's wrong to sit around in the judgment seat and sit around in the condemner's seat.  We take on Satan's job when we put ourselve in the position where we have to sit around and pick out the sins of others.  

Christ Like Behavior:
Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

People that sit around judging and pointing out sins are like this:

Ezekiel 33:32
Indeed, to them you are nothing more than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words but do not put them into practice.

We have to have love and care of sinners because:


Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety­nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

In our patience with sinners we can encourage ourselves with:


Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!


Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."[ 8:12 Jer. 31:31­34]

Hebrews 10:17
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
John 8

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

And when you feel like the world is so full of sin that you must sit around and feel sorry for yourself, then remember, YOU STILL CAN'T throw stones because Jesus says, "If anyone of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Hello, none of us are without sin.

I'm not saying homosexuality is right.  I'm saying condemning them is just as bad as being a homosexual.

It's not by how we judge each other that makes us Christ's diciples, but how we love each other.

I think that none of us can love without the Holy Spirit.  We can have the law and know the law and teach the law and try to apply it in our lives, but without the Holy Spirit, we're Pharasees.  All of us.  Because in order to have eternal life, we need the LIVING WATER.  The law can never save us.

All the folks that are focusing on the law would probably much better of BEING a homosexual, because then they would know their  true need of a Savior.  Then they would understand compassion and just why Christ had to die for our sin.

It's worse to be a Pharasee then to be gay.

Peace

Very tough question Gracey.   Its hard to sort out because we only know who is male or female by their sex at birth.  But how do WE know, even though this individual was surgically altered, they were not "mentally" male all along?    In other words, is there any indication that the "sexual wiring" (for lack of a better term) changed from one to the other?   Or are they functioning based on the way they were wired from birth?  If so, I would say they are not homosexual (lusting after the same flesh or wiring in this case), albeit they have the wrong body.   Terrible to think about.


If being made in the image of God means.....that man, like God has intellect, emotion, moral reasoning, volition (ability of making a choice or decision), and enternity of beingor eternal soul, then I would say they are.   These attributes would fit the said person you have described in spite of the situation.



It is confusing indeed.   But God being Omnicient, having all knowledge there is to possess could not be taken by surprise with this scenario.   I trust in the Lords understanding more than mine, but as a mere human, I share your quandry with this.

Grace and Peace!

Candice: the following is an excerpt from your last post:


I'm not saying homosexuality is right.  I'm saying condemning them is just as bad as being a homosexual.

It's not by how we judge each other that makes us Christ's diciples, but how we love each other.

It's worse to be a Pharasee then to be gay.


I Cor. 6:2&3  do ye not know that the saints shall judge the
world?and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy
to judge the smallest matters?
know ye not that we whall judge angels? how much more
things that pertain to this life?

We do not stand in judgement of anyone, including those who
live in homosexuallity!But by the same token, the word of God
finds them guilty of abomination. We as children of the most
high are to do our best to show those who are living a life
contrary to God's word how to return to our maker.

When we see someone living in sin, on their way to hell, and
failing to follow the words of our savior we are required to
lead them to the truth.  Should we fail to tell them of this
truth, and they die in their sin we will be held accountable for
their soul in the eyes of God.

Already I see you clasifying me as a bible thumping fanatic,
who blatantly condemns people.  WRONG!

As I have said before, and I repeat now, we are to hate the
sin, but love the sinner. Remember that we are nothing more
than sinners saved by grace!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is not my job to condemn anyone! rom 8:1there  is therefore
NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ Jesus:WHO
WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH but after the spirit.

We are the watchmen of the world mentioned in the book of
Ezec.  We must warn the world that without the shed blood of
Jesus there is no forgiveness of sin, and no chance to escape
the fires of a very real hell.

The word believe used in John 3:16 meant to believe, to
continue to believe, and to act upon that belief.  That action
is a repentance (ie turning away from and denouncing) of
our sinfull ways!

It takes far more love to point out a loved one's errors, and
risk loosing their love, than to just let them continue on their
way to hell.  I would rather see every person I meet go to
heaven, even if it meant loosing their friendship.

Do you think that it was easy, or gentle, or what the world
calls loving when Jesus OVERTHREW  the money changers
tables, made whips of the curtain cords, and drove the people
out of the temple? Do you think it was considered "loving"
Jesus called the scribes and pharassees vipers?

No? neither do I! But I still believe that it was done with the
greatest of love!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love is not always easy, love is not always "kind" but love will
always tell the truth needed to set someone free.

Rom 12:1-2 I beseach you bretheren by the mercies of God
that you present your bodies a LIVING  sacrifice , holy and
acceptable unto God WHICH IS YOUR REASONABLE SERVICE.
and be ye not conformed to this world but be ye transformed
by the renewing of your minds to prove what is that good, and
acceptable and perfect will of God.

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

 :D ravenloche  :D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  Wouldn't that be funny if when we finally get to heaven and find out our names in Christ, one of us is named, "Bible thumbing fanatic who blatantly classifies sheep."

LOL

Alright, I have a sick sense of humor.   ;D

Peace

Candice Cavalier.

 I suppose that post was directed at me.

 It's ironic that you should infer that I am judging others, and at the same time, judge me so harshly.

 
 If we are to be accused of "judging" when we point out truths from the  scriptures, then no one would ever be in a righteous position to preach or teach from the bible at all.

 I was not judging anyone Candice - I was correcting your incorrect interpretation of forgiveness. I used scriptures to point out an important detail which you seem to be unaware of. It is biblically true that we must repent of our sins.

 One of the scriptures I used was...

Jhn 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?  

Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 Jesus forgave her sin of adultry, and then He told her to stop comiting adultry. Get it? We can't continue in our sins just because we have accepted Jesus. Jesus expects us to fight temptation, and resist sin.

 Candice - how is it that when I used some scriptures to make my point you are so incensed that you made the following statement...

 

 And yet you used many scriptures yourself to make your point, and that somehow is apparently OK?

 Candice - you made a statement that basically made the sin of homosexuality void once a person accepts Jesus, and that person could basically continue to have homosexual relations because the sin was forgiven - I'm sorry, but that is a dangerous teaching which could cost someone their salvation, and it's not biblical. I'm not judging anyone Candice - I'm simply trying to correct your false belief, and I'm coming straight from Jesus.

Do you know that God commands us to warn people of their sins? It doesn't matter whether the person knows he/she is sinning or not. God says we must warn them against their sin or we shall suffer that persons punishment also.

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.  


Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.  


Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.  


Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.  

 You might want to remember those verses the next time you run into a homosexual priest.


Bronzesnake

Hello Candice...

 I must have misunderstood you when you made the following statement...

 

 I thought you were saying that priest could continue to have homosexual relations, because he has been forgiven.

So, let me get this straight...You understand that once a saved sinner confesses a specific sin, he must repent of that sin, and he must not willingly engage in that sin again?

 
 well, I appreciate that Candice, although I did believe that post was directed at me, however - I wasn't hurt or anything like that, I'm pretty solid as far as hurt feelings go. :D I might get annoyed from time to time, but hurt feelings? ahhh, no thanks, I'm full! ;)

 I hope I made the scriptures clear in regards to God commanding us to inform each other of our sins, as opposed to judging each other, which is not cool.

I also try hard not to insult, or belittle people who are honest posters. I must admit that I have on occasion lashed out verbally against flamers...they deserved much worse though! ;D

Take care my friend...

Bronzesnake.

Found it!!  For those who wanted scriptural reference here it is.

Matthew 19:12

For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven.

For some are eunuchs because they were BORN that way. This was said in response to marriages in which not everyone "could accept the word, but only those to whom it has been GIVEN." This means something real simple. God just made people that will marry or won't marry.

Hmm...this wasn't what I saw, but I knew what I was saying was right already.  ;)

I had forgotton this passage Felix.  I also found this one which I don't believe I have ever read before.

Isa 56:4  For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5  Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

The part that jumps out at me is the ...and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;.  This is a point that Judgenot was trying to make in another thread.

Grace and Peace!

Hello my friends...

 Word History: The word eunuch does not derive, as one might think, from the operation that produced a eunuch but rather from one of his functions. Eunuch goes back to the Greek word eunoukhos, “a castrated person employed to take charge of the women of a harem and act as chamberlain.” The Greek word is derived from eun, “bed,” and ekhein, “to keep.” A eunuch, of course, was ideally suited to guard the bedchamber of women.

 I'm not sure what the inference is with the last two posts.
 Eunuch does not mean homosexual.
 

 A eunuch was literally a bed-keeper or chamberlain, and not necessarily in all cases one who was mutilated, although the practice of employing such mutilated persons in Oriental courts was common (2 Kings 9:32; Esther 2:3). The law of Moses excluded them from the congregation (Deut. 23:1). They were common also among
the Greeks and Romans. It is said that even to-day there are some in Rome who are employed in singing soprano in the Sistine Chapel. Three classes of eunuchs are mentioned in Matt. 19:12.

Bronzesnake.

The inference was that eunuch and celibacy (not homosexual) were equivelent in implications. One definition of eunuch is one that lacks virility or mascularity. Remember people are not homosexuals, they are people who lack virility and who are not attracted to the opposite sex (eunuch). They were born that way. But this does not exempt them from sexual sins such as adultery or fornication, and thus they are still susceptible to sexual sin by homosexuality.

I agree, I don't think its reference to homosexuals, and my response was more directed to Gracey's post about hermaphrodites than homosexuals.   Sorry I wasn't clearer.

The passage in question...

Mat 19:12  For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Thayers definition for Eunuch 2135 used here in Matthew

eunouchos
Thayer Definition:
1) a bed keeper, bed guard, superintendent of the bedchamber, chamberlain
1a) in the palace of oriental monarchs who support numerous wives the superintendent of the women’s apartment or harem, an office held by eunuchs

I think its safe we can rule out the above as the type of Eunuch Jesus was refering to.


1b) an emasculated man, a eunuch
1b1) eunuchs in oriental courts held by other offices of greater, held by the Ethiopian eunuch mentioned in Act_8:27-39.

1b is one type Jesus refers to being made by man or perhaps self.


1c) one naturally incapacitated
1c1) for marriage
1c2) begetting children
1d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage


1c fits another type Jesus refers to as possibly being born that way.  1d refers to the type that would voluntarily abstain.

Nothing here to indicate homosexuals.   But in regards to Graceys querry about hermorphidites, albeit somewhat different, I think this may shed a little light on the question.

Whether one is born with homosexual tendancies or not, they can repent and overcome through Gods saving grace.

Grace and Peace!

I noticed you didn't spend much time on this one.


Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


You can spin this anyway you like, but there it is in plain Kings english.   These being spoken of here are clearly engaging in homosexual activity.   Listen to the adjectives used....vile, un-natural, unseemly, unclean, dishounor.   What was the reason for this activity?   These had turned the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped creation over the creator.   In essence, it was judgment upon their unwillingness to put God above all.  

In all honesty I have no hate towards homosexuals.  I do how however believe that their lifestyle is wrong, and against what God intended, much the same way a heterosexual lives in unbelief not acknowledging Christ as Lord and saviour.   Instead of defending the lifestyle and pointing out the hate, cling to the hope of the Cross, and seek the life he would have you live.   Gods agenda is all about sin.   If you are feeling defensive about your lifestyle, then prehaps He is not in charge of it.   Perhaps you are not freely confident about the truth that sets us free.   You can't come to truth until you first come to him.

Just something to think about.

Grace and Peace!

I really wanted to stay out of this thread, because I don't care much for debates at all.

First off we are Not to Judge anyone here or anywhere at all!! Matthew 7:1-5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Matthew+7%3A1-5&version=KJV)!!


Some are born different than other people.  I was born with a severe birth defect that I am Severly Disabled from.  Did I sin or have a choice in this matter, No!!. I take Vicodin Pain killers everyday to help me manage my pain.  All my meds are prescription from my doctor!

Okay, people are all different, thank God we are all different, otherwise this would be a Very boring World.

I don't like to see hate or ridicule pushed on all God's Children.  After all we All are God's Children!  There is too much hate and destruction in the World today.  Jesus Commanded us to Love one another. John 15:12 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=John+15%3A12&version=KJV).  Without Love we are Nothing to our Sisters' and Brother's or the Lost for that matter!

I know homosexuality is a very hot topic for some people, and subject for a very strong Debate.  Don't we think these People can be loved by God?!  I think so, after all Jesus Died on the cross for everyone!

Here is another issues that's even more taboo.  What about  Transsexuals? They can and do Love God! Are they not worthy of God's Love like Homosexuals are?  Remember Judge Not Lest Thou Be Judged before trying to think how to cure people.  We are to Love one another.  I am God's Child, I Love Him for without Him I would not exist.  Love is Stronger than Hate, can we not see this?!

I wrote a Poem about how I see myself with my Birth defect;



PS. I wrote this Poem because of my birth defect and how disfigured my chest looks.  God Does Love me YaY and Loves You all!!! ;D


Love Always,

KristiAnn

Hi KristiAnn,

Not sure if your comments were concerning my last post or not, but my intent was not to pass judgment on anyone.  I was simply stating what Gods word has to say about the subject.  His word is the final authority on expected Christian living.  I agree that God loves us all dearly as it says...

Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

As I said before, Gods agenda is sin because it seperates us from Him.  Without us conforming to Christ and allowing him to grant us repentance of sin (no matter what the sin) we cannot commune with Him.   Is this passing judgement on anyone, or this simply stating the truth of Gods word which we will all be judged by when we stand before Him as Supreme judge?    

BTW, no harsh tones here, I agree that Love is required in these discussions, but so is truth which is sometimes harsh, especially when we resist it.

Grace and Peace!

Hello Tim,

I wasn't replying to your post.  I replied the the whole thread.


Blessings,  \o/

KristiAnn

I heard a guy who works in prison ministries once preach a message about the progress of sin, and when God may stop contending with that nation:


He presented it as somewhat of a downward spiral:

1)  They don't honor God as God.  In our nations past, we have done much to dishonor Him, from removing prayer in school, to attempting today to remove His name from our pledges, and His Word from our legal institutions, to denying His power in creation by adopting a scientifically theoretic solution to Him.  "Claiming to be wise, they became fools."  Is this not true of our society today?  If so, then consider...

2)  God gave them up to the impure lusts of their hearts.  In our past, and more so in our present, pornography, sex, drugs, alcoholism and the like have slowly crept in.  Now, it's everywhere.  What was once considered pornography is now considered an acceptable advertisement suitable for a billboard.  What once was considered a drug, is now being questioned as a viable medicinal drug.  And it goes on.  I don't have to tell you.  You can see it.  What once was considered taboo in our nation is now considered the norm.  It doesn't take a genius to see that many in our nation have been "given up to their lusts."  If so, then...

3)  God gave them up to their dishonorable passions.  This speaks undeniably of homosexuality.  Their are those who deny it, but are simply chosing to believe what they want rather than what God says here.  And why are they given this route?  Because God gave them up.  If you had a question about whether or not God has given many in our nation up to their sinful lusts, then looking at the Gay Marriage movement should put that to rest.  What's more?  When the women are involved, it's climaxing to the end course.  How so?  Historically, one of the major symptoms in a society's decline is not just homosexuality, but when the women are drawn into it as well.  Just look at Rome.  Do you see it?  If so...

4)  Since they don't acknowledge God, He not only lets them think impure thoughts, He lets them act on them.  Just look at our nation today.  We kill babies and call it "a choice."  We support the immoral lifestyle of our youth and call it teaching "safe sex."  We support homosexuals and call it "alternative lifestyles."  We support the union of homosexuals and call it "Gay Marriage."  We do each of these things.  What once was a thought is now an action and a pressing desire for more action.  Just look at a newspaper and see the murder, slander, hate and the like.  It should make the hairs on our necks rise when we consider what Paul has said here in this passage.  Do you see it?  If so...

5)  They know God will destroy them, but they do, and support those who do as well.  Hmmmmm...hard one to see here, isn't it?  We have politicians debating right now as to whether or not we will, as a nation, support them.  Praise ALMIGHTY GOD that we have a President standing up to this and attempting to lead us in the right direction.  Do you see it?  If so...

THEN VOTE!!![/b][/u]

Just a thought...

"Christian's are Not Perfect, Just Forgiven!" Lets all remember this Please!

Sobering when put this way.  Thanks Brother!

Grace and Peace!

You're welcome Brother!

Sin is transgression of the law. How does an unborn baby transgress the law before it is born in order to be born a sinner? It seems a contradiction.

Ollie

Good to keep in mind, but even so, there is a line that exists between falling into sin and asking forgiveness, and knowingly, openly, and willfully becoming involved in unrepentant sin.  There are those who try to blur the liines of distinction to make them seem not so bad to human thinking, and thus justify behavior that is not pleasing to God.  

To my thinking, standing on the one side of the line, in need of forgiveness for sin and realizing and asking for forgiveness, may be termed Christian, but being on the other side of that liine may not be.  This willfullness of behavior and attitude is what Paul addressed when he wrote:

"But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to  sound teaching" (1 Tim. 1:8-10).

He makes similar remarks in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

As long as by your quote of this common bumper sticker theology, you are not suggesting any kind of "I'm OK, you're OK" approach to understanding this issue, then I agree it's an appropriate statement.  But there are those who use the same kinds of phrases to suggest we just sweep it all under the carpet and make no call on it.  I for one can't go that route, because:

• Paul calls it "contrary to sound teaching," and "unrighteous"
• He says if we accept these practices as okay, we are "deceived"
• He says the end result is, no inheritance of the Kingdom of God.

My question is, if it is contrary to sound Christian teaching, if it leads away from the Kingdom of God, and if believing differently is a deception, then would the statement of "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" even apply, since it seems, generally speaking, that the two seem incompatible?

R.M.

Dear  Mxyzptlk,

Welcome to Christian's Unite!


There is also this in the B-I-B-L-E!!!

Matthew 7:1-5

1   JUDGE not, that ye be not judged.

2   For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3   And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4   Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5   Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
   


And Love is defined this way!


1 Corinthians 13


1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;

5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;

6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;

7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man (or woman), I put away childish things.

12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
 
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.



Remember Love those that hate you, use you, step on you, Leave you.


Love is very hard to define sometimes;

We cannot touch it, grab it, nor find it, or how can I buy it (sorry it's Not for sale!), we cannot look for love, we cannot keep it, sometimes we lose it!!!


Blessings,  \o/

Amen to the Word, and blessings to you also.

But I'm afraid I don't see posting a theological opinion, based on what God has said clearly in His Word, as "judging."  

As I recall, I ended with a question.

And on the subject of love:

If the Bible clearly says that something is sinful;

if it also says that same sin, persisted in, will keep them from heaven;

How on God's green earth can it be considered "loving" to simply pretend as though it is not there, and turn one's head the other way and say nothing?

I find it ironic that at the same time many people cry out against "judging" when anyone expresses biblical opinions, they turn right around and label opinions that are counter to their own as "gay-bashing," which is for the most part a judgment call in itself, and one that is generally overused.

Well stated!

 :)

"Grace is about being forgiven, but it's not an excuse to keep on sinning!
It's about freedom FROM sin, but not freedom TO sin!"

 :)