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1  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 28, 2004, 06:21:31 PM
Part 2
Does Peter claim salvation was by his freewill decision?
Not that I know of.

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2 Peter 1:3  According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
 
Show me if I am wrong, nowhere does Peter claim he made a freewill decision for Christ.
Some say Joshua told Israel that they could choose salvation. That is not what he said.

Joshua 24:15  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

We can choose to sin, or we can choose not to sin.
We can choose to follow God and show him we sincerely want to spend eternity with him, or we can follow other paths. If we want to be saved we should show God we are serious about such a desire.
If we really want to be one of Gods we need to let ourselves be lead by him.
Man has no right to claim his own doctrine is infallible. When we refuse to accept the possibility we could be wrong we are no longer following God.
I know of no one, in the bible, that claims they are saved by their freewill decision.
Yet that is the common declaration today. Everyone wants to tell you when they accepted Jesus.
By claiming believing is in every persons capability, and it is up to you to do it, freewill salvation is boasting a superior ability over nonbelievers.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  

Believing in Jesus requires effort and ability, or it is a blessing. It is either a work, or it is a gift.
The freewill doctrine would make it your work.
Both Paul and Peter claim they were saved as a result of God choosing them and calling them. Not that they chose God.
Jesus also says this is the way.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Some claim God draws everyone. Such a claim does not have the support of scripture.
Jesus says that all that the father gives him will come to him. He will lose none of them.
God cannot fail.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Did you notice Jesus ties believing to those God has given to him?
I know this has been long, remember Matthew 7:21?

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Those that do the Fathers will are those he has given to Jesus.
I feel I have covered believing in enough depth to show that it is a result of God working in us.
A couple more verses:

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Romans 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

It is sometimes taught, usually by those that preach salvation by your freewill action, that election means you don’t do anything. You just wait for God to slap you upside the head with salvation.
While this may be somewhat true, it is a foolish path to take.
The true gospel is available to all types of people and it is not limited by mental capability.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

All have sinned, there are no exceptions.
God can save tiny infants and the mentally incompetent.
Some are born mentally incompetent, others lose their mental competence later in life through injury or illness.
Freewill has tried to address babies by inventing a doctrine called, ‘the age of accountability’. It is not in the bible. It is the result of a need to fill a gap in their doctrine.
Some claim babies don’t sin so they have never been estranged from God. The bible says we are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
 
Until we become saved we are counted among the wicked.
God does save babies, but it is completely his work.
While the freewill teachers have tried to address those that are born without mental capabilities, they have no solution for those that have lived a life of sin and lost their mental capabilities.
God can save those unfortunate ones also, it is his choice.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
   
I think I can safely say few on this forum are in the mentally incompetent category. We tend to see others as being like us. It is hard to imagine that someone could not make a freewill decision.
Some have lost loved ones to Alzheimers, or have seen loved ones lose their mental ability through stroke or injury.
Others have loved ones who are in deep coma. The soul is hanging on to the body through life support.
If salvation was dependent on making a freewill decision then these loved ones would have no hope.
Fortunately salvation is dependent on Gods mercy.
For those of us that do have the mental ability I would recommend doing everything possible to get yourself saved.
Prayerfully read the scripture, and look to God for your understanding.
Leave yourself open to the possibility that what you think is right is not, allow God to lead you.
Plead with God to save you, and don’t quit just because you think you are saved.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Most importantly turn away from your sins.
Do everything you can to repent. Plead with God to make you faithful.
Having a belief in Jesus is an important first step. Ask God to give you true faith.

Mark 9:24  And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

God chooses who he is going to save not because there is something special about them.
Not because they are wiser, or kinder, or prettier, or because of any quality in them. He has his own reason for choosing who he is going to save.
He chose to save Jacob instead of Esau to show that salvation was a result of his choosing. He did it to prove election.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14 ¶  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
 
I pray God blesses you,
Goodbye,
John
2  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 28, 2004, 06:16:10 PM
I suspect (I have said this before) that this will be my last post on this forum.
It is a long post, about half of it is scripture.

Part 1
This is hopefully a clearer attempt at addressing WHOSOEVER

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is probably the most quoted verse of scripture.
Today, thanks to the prompting of teachers, most people view the verse as an invitation. It is not an invitation, it is a statement of fact.
It is a fact that everyone that believes in Jesus will not perish, they will have everlasting life.
The Greek word in the original language translated ‘whosoever’ is the word <PAS>, it is almost always translated ‘all’.
All that believeth in him should not perish...
One question is:
What does it mean to believe?
Unfortunately many people think that knowing who Jesus is, is believing in him.
All sorts of people claim to believe in Jesus:
Methodists, Pentecostals, Dutch Reformed, Catholic, Mennonite, Freewill Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Episcopalian, Orthodox, Etc. all believe in Jesus. Yet their doctrines and beliefs vary radically from each other.
Consider the Southern Baptists. 100 years ago the beliefs of the Southern Baptists were radically different than they are today.
There are others that many consider to be way out there:
Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, all have a belief in Jesus.
There are some that believe in Jesus and reincarnation.
There are new age Jesus believers.
Clearly there is more to believing than meets the eye.
When Jesus returns many people that had a belief in Jesus, and even felt they were working for him will find themselves spending all of eternity in the Lake Of Fire.

Matthew 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is not so simple to believe, as many would like you to think.
Everyone that believes in Jesus will become saved, but it is not a belief that can be accomplished by mans will.
It is a belief done by God. His mercy, not mans choice.
 
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Those that receive him, that believe on his name do so not by any ability in man. It is entirely Gods work.

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Saving belief is the work of God.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

No one can resist Gods will.

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Paul did not make a freewill decision for Christ. Most people on this forum know the story.
Saul (Paul) was on his way to destroy Christians when the Lord appeared before Saul with such a presence that choice was not involved. (Acts 8 and 9)
Paul was certain his salvation was by Gods will and not his own.
Of the 14 epistles written by Paul, in 10 of them he begins the letter by making it clear he was called, or chosen by the will of God.

Romans 1:1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
 
1 Corinthians 1:1  Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Corinthians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Galatians 1:1  Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Galatians 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother‘s womb, and called me by his grace,
Galatians 1:16  To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Ephesians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Think about that last verse.
A child does not adopt the parent, we are adopted by Jesus to himself according to his pleasure.

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Ephesians 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 
Colossians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

1 Timothy 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2 Timothy 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

With the exception of Philemon, Paul continues to preach salvation is by Gods calling and work in the remaining epistles.

2 Thessalonians 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Thessalonians 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is faithful, if he has called you he will save you.
 
1 Thessalonians 5:24  Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

It is Gods work that you become saved. He has pleasure in those he saves.

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Paul clearly gave the full credit of salvation to God.
Paul preached, time and time again, salvation is dependent on God calling you and working in you.
Paul preached God chose (elected) who He was going to save.
Paul preached God is faithful in this and God cannot fail.
No where does Paul say, “I chose Christ.”
No where does Paul take credit for believing.
Maybe someone might want to suggest Paul didn’t understand. Somehow his understanding was tainted by his personal experience.
3  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 28, 2004, 06:11:48 PM
By the way, the Holy Bible is set in concrete, not my heart.
That is not what you said earlier.
You said your opinion was set in concrete. Your opinion is your understanding of the Holy Bible.
It is more than certain that neither of you are going to change your opinions, and my opinion is set in concrete.
My opinion is not set in concrete.
Thanks to God, I learned a long time ago that my concrete opinions can be very, very wrong.
Thanks to God, I began to understand there is only one true God. I began to ask Him to show me truth. I have had one continual prayer for many years.
Every time before I read the bible, every day, I pray with all my heart that God will open my eyes to the truth.
Every day I plead with God that if my understanding is in error He will not only lead me to the truth, but He will also keep me from teaching what is not true.
I plead with God for mercy and wisdom and understanding.
I want to be absolutely certain I know God in truth.

Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I have gone down wrong paths before, they often look like the right one.
My opinion is based on the bible and the bible alone, nothing more and nothing less. No dreams no visions, not the teachings of men and their imaginations, but the bible only.
While you can’t see it, I have found my understanding to be in absolute harmony with the whole bible.
You have had to add to the bible an age of accountability because you understand there are babies that will be in heaven, but your doctrine won’t work for them. They can’t perform it.
Your age of accountability requires you to reject part of the Bible, because the Bible says we are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

You must add to the bible and you must take away from the bible, for your doctrine to work. If the bible is set in concrete why do that?
There are many other errors in your “opinions”, you don’t wish to discuss them, I do understand your reluctance.
My opinion is not set in concrete, I know I can and will be wrong. I seek God for guidance. I am confident He is faithful to me, he knows when and how to open my understanding.
Your opinion is set in concrete, you feel you have infallible understanding. Many people feel they have infallible doctrine or their church has infallible doctrine.
Who is God going to lead?
Those that refuse to be lead, or those that plead with Him to lead them?
I am going to go with the latter.
4  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 28, 2004, 06:08:57 PM
In reference to banning, I don't have the power to do that. I simply compile copies of posts and make a recommendation to ADMIN. ADMIN is a full grown and mature Christian, and the CU server is owned by him. Someone's use of Christians Unite is exactly like you inviting someone into your home to visit. You don't have to ask anyone about removing that guest from your house, and neither does ADMIN. You've made your point over and over that you disagree with some who were banned, so that is old news that won't change. I doubt that you will allow anyone to tell you who will or will not be in your home, and the same is obviously true with ADMIN. As a volunteer, I appreciate his wisdom and actions to maintain services to thousands of Christian web sites and provide Christians Unite Forum to over 2,000 users. Christians Unite is stronger than ever, and that isn't an accident. ADMIN is a very intelligent man, but he also has a Lord and Saviour who leads and guides him. You got the 10 cent tour free from me. For the other 90 cents, take a look at the main portion of Christians Unite.
Tom
It wasn’t my intention to get into the banning issue.
You had commented I was angry, when I was not.
You said,
Quote
It's a topic certainly worthy of discussion, but one I feel might lead me to anger. That's something I have been praying about for over a year, and the answer appears to be resisting temptation to become involved in the first place. You don't appear to have that problem, but it appears that Left Coast does.

So, I'm thinking that a safe topic for Left Coast and I to discuss might be bird watching.   Cheesy  It might still be a great discussion between you and John if he could cool things off 50 degrees below boiling.   Cheesy

I tried to explain I was not angry at all.
Not one bit.
There is only one thing that has made me angry on this forum. So I stated what that was.
Quote
Tom,
I am not angry at all. Not one little bit.
The only thing that has angered me is the unfair banning of certain individuals from this forum.
I do need to defend myself though. If someone accuses you of saying things you did not say, what are you going to think? What would you do?
Trust me, I am not angry at all, but it would be nice to debate with someone who would debate from what I have said rather than making up things that I have never said or believed.
Those are the types of things a false witness does. They make things up.
As you know I have said ADMIN has the right to do what he wants, it’s his forum.
But just because he has the right doesn’t make it right.
If you go to Singapore and chew gum they have the right to cane you. It is their right, but it doesn’t make it right.
If you go to Iran and are found guilty of stealing they have the right to cut off your arm, that doesn’t make it right.
If you go to all sorts of countries and preach Jesus Christ they have the right to do all sorts of horrible things to you, but it doesn’t make it right.
I have made it very clear I will no longer continue on this forum, after this particular topic has been exhausted - (and all the wanderings of this topic) - you will no longer hear from me.
You wish to preach to the pulpit on this forum.
I believe it is necessary to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
All the world includes people like Heidi, and Michael, evolutionists, SDA’s, ETC.
The success of the forum in numbers has never been the question. It is very clear to me after trying to debate this issue with Bronze that a vast number of your 2,000 members are either unable to debate, or are unwilling to debate, the topics.
When I present questions either there is no response or I am accused of believing and saying things I never brought up or believed, false witness.
How do you expect to sell your product?
You go into the G.M. dealer to buy a pickup.
You ask the salesman how many mpg you get with the diesel engine.
The salesman says, “you think a Dodge has more power with their Hemi, that’s because you don’t care about our oil reserves.”
Then you ask the salesman about the warrantee. He replies, “why don’t you go look at the red one over there?”
Would you buy a truck from the guy?
That is how this debate has felt to me, either there is no reply, or I am accused of saying or believing in something I never said or believed in.
While those types of debates are expected in the political world they serve no purpose for truth seekers.
I am sorry if you feel criticism is negative, some people view criticism as input for improvement.
I believe my criticism is valid, you do not, we can leave it there.
5  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 22, 2004, 08:07:21 PM
A couple of people have brought up the idea that the elect are limited to the nation of Israel.
Perhaps this will help to clarify.

Romans 9:24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

It is not limited to the Jews.
God had a special relationship to the nation of Israel.
God also has a special relationship to the brick and mortar churches.
The two relationships are similar.
There have been people on this forum that believed that Gods perfect Church was made up of the brick building and the people that run it.
The reality is Gods perfect church is a heavenly church made up of all true believers of various denominations. It is a spiritual church.
This does not change the fact that God has established and blessed various physical churches on this planet.
God uses the Nation of Israel as a picture the Heavenly Israel of God. The Heavenly Israel is made up of true believers from various denominations.
While I could leave you with several posts in an attempt to show you this truth, the fact is God must show you.
I will give you a couple of pieces of the puzzle.
Egypt was and is a physical nation. God also uses Egypt as a picture of the dominion of Satan. That does not mean Egypt is more evil than any other people.
As you read the bible see if you can understand how Egypt is being used to show the dominion of Satan.
A key verse to show this is:

Revelation 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 
Jesus was not crucified in Egypt.
Here is a hint that God uses Israel as a picture of the body of believers.
When the Lord returns the earth will be destroyed. God will then create an entirely new earth.

2 Peter 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Yet God had promised Israel the promised land FOREVER.

Genesis 13:15  For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

The promise was established with Abraham.
Who are the children of Abraham?
Physically they are the nation of Israel.

Deuteronomy 34:4  And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.

Yet that physical land will be destroyed in the end.
This is the important connection.
Spiritually Abrahams children are the true believers.

Romans 4:11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This is the Israel and elect of God.

Galatians 3:29  And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

John

I do have one more post in me but it must wait, I wasn't even home for a day before I must leave again.
6  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 22, 2004, 08:03:19 PM

When I read this post, I was trying to imagine how I might witness to the lost if I thought only a small  number would be accepted.
Very simple to answer, we can’t know the mind of God. We can’t know who he is going to save and who he is not.
We witness to every person on the HOPE that God will work on their heart.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



Quote
I could only imagine a HUGE and BOOMING voice from Heaven saying, "You are not on the list - I won't hear your prayer for forgiveness and Christ rejects you." It's a good thing that will NEVER happen.
Of course it will never happen, it comes from your imagination.
Who has said that would ever happen?


Quote
Brother, you and I know that the GOOD NEWS is for every man, woman, and child on earth, even the worst and most evil.
Unless of course they have become mentally incapable through disease or brain injury.
I can’t imagine having a doctrine dependent on the brain of man.
I can’t imagine a God condemning someone to hell because they were not able to do the required work of believing when they never even heard of Jesus to believe in him.
Quote
I can't imagine how horrible it would be for some to be born without any hope and doomed to darkness without a hope or prayer of any kind.
Yet the bible says all sorts of people are in that exact position, having never heard the gospel.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Quote
How could anyone witness and tell them at the same time they would probably be rejected by Christ?
You wouldn’t, who said you would?
What a foolish statement.
No one can know the mind of GOD!
No one can know who God will save and who He will not.

Quote
Well, I know that sincere prayers for forgiveness and requests for Jesus to be Lord over their life will NOT be rejected.
And true sincerity comes from a heart that has been changed by God.
7  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 22, 2004, 08:01:13 PM

It's a topic certainly worthy of discussion, but one I feel might lead me to anger. That's something I have been praying about for over a year, and the answer appears to be resisting temptation to become involved in the first place. You don't appear to have that problem, but it appears that Left Coast does.

So, I'm thinking that a safe topic for Left Coast and I to discuss might be bird watching.   Cheesy  It might still be a great discussion between you and John if he could cool things off 50 degrees below boiling.   Cheesy  I think that most of us have buttons someone can push for high temperature settings. I'm trying to either break or short out my high temperature button. OR, maybe God will reduce my wattage some more.

Love In Christ,
Tom
Tom,
I am not angry at all. Not one little bit.
The only thing that has angered me is the unfair banning of certain individuals from this forum.
I do need to defend myself though. If someone accuses you of saying things you did not say, what are you going to think? What would you do?
Trust me, I am not angry at all, but it would be nice to debate with someone who would debate from what I have said rather than making up things that I have never said or believed.
Those are the types of things a false witness does. They make things up.
8  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 22, 2004, 07:59:00 PM

It is more than certain that neither of you are going to change your opinions, and my opinion is set in concrete.

Tom,
My heart is not set in concrete, I am able to change my opinions. Fortunately I have done so several times in my life.
But I will not change my opinion just because someone says, “I am right and you are wrong.”
So far neither you nor Bronze have given solid inarguable evidence that your doctrine is truth.
No one has responded, with substance, to the arguments I have given.
Just think about this for a minute.
How many times does a sin have to be paid for?
I am going to trust you understand only once.
To pay for our sins Jesus literally had to suffer the equivalency of an eternity in hell for every sin we have ever committed. He had to make the full payment.
...
His Blood washes us clean from our sins.

Re 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

God chose the words very deliberately.
If He paid for the sins of every single person on the planet then there are only two possibilities.
1. No one goes to hell. The sins of Judas - paid. The sins of Hitler - paid. The sins of Saddam’s sons - paid.
If they do go to hell then it is because of the second possibility.
2. Christ gets a refund on the immense suffering He endured. That is not possible.
The only possibility is He only made the payment for those that would become saved.
It could be He knew who would freely choose Him (your way), or it could be He knew who He would choose (my way). It is not possible that he paid for the sins of those that will be in hell.

Tom I know you respect C.H. Spurgeon, if you didn’t you wouldn’t post his Morning and Evening Devotions as you have on a regular basis. http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=3561;start=0

If you will not accept my testimony that Christ only paid for the sins of those that he came to save, would you consider looking at what Spurgeon preached on this?
Please for the sake of truth, look at Spurgeon’s Sermon on this very topic.
You say your opinion is set in concrete, so were the Pharisees. If you want to know Gods truth, you must be willing to recognize that you can be in error.
I love you as a brother please understand that what I am going to say is not meant as an attack. When you declare your opinion is set in concrete you are declaring your heart is stone. We are called to be lead by God, that means we have to be open to the truth. No man has perfect understanding. Only God sees and knows all.

1 Corinthians 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

By declaring your opinion is in concrete you are declaring you are infallible.

Matthew 20:28  Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Many not everyone.

Please look at Spurgeon’s Sermon on this very topic.
Particular Redemption
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

The doctrine of Redemption is one of the most important doctrines of the system of faith. A mistake on this point will inevitably lead to a mistake through the entire system of our belief.
.......
All Christians hold that Christ died to redeem, but all Christians do not teach the same redemption. We differ as to the nature of atonement, and as to the design of redemption.
.......
There was never an ill word spoken, nor an ill thought conceived, nor an evil deed done, for which God will not have punishment from some one or another. He will either have satisfaction from you, or else from Christ.
......
For man's sin God demands eternal punishment; and God hath prepared a Hell into which He casts those who die impenitent.


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Left Coast, I have no problem in calling you brother, but I disagree with you completely on your doctrine. It is set in concrete that Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL - EVERYONE who will believe, confess, and ask forgiveness to the LORD AND SAVIOUR for ALL who call on HIS Name as LORD over their lives.

It is not set in concrete Tom, your heart is. You have openly said you will not allow yourself to be lead in any other direction on this. With an attitude like that, how can God lead you?
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John, I know it makes you angry that I won't debate this with you, but I don't feel led to debate matters like this.
It doesn’t make me angry Tom, sad would be a better word.
I do believe that the reason you post in the debate forum, and then proclaim you will not debate is because you know your stance is weak. It will not stand up to the bible, when the bible is taken in it’s entirety.  
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Anyone, and I mean ANYONE can hear the Word of God, believe in the GOOD NEWS OF THE CROSS, and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
Not according to scripture.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If what you say is true we wouldn’t need preachers, missionaries, or evangelists.
If what you say is true then there would be an equal percentage of Christians on every part of the globe.

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There really isn't any mystery at all about predestination.
You have confused predestinate with foreknowledge.
They are completely different terms no more alike than water and stone.

Romans 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Foreknow
From the Greek, proginosko

Predestinate
From the Greek, proorizo

The scripture says He FOREKNEW who He was GOING TO PREDESTINATE, those He predestinated He called.
Everyone He calls WILL become saved, God is not impotent, He cannot fail.

Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

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Foreknowledge by ALMIGHTY GOD does not suggest that you were somehow commanded or created as a robot that would accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.
The robot idea always comes up with you folks. I have addressed it many times before. We are not robots, we have been rescued - saved.
I suppose the reason you view it as being a robot is you see salvation as being dependent on your work. If you are forced to do the work then by necessity you are either a robot or a slave.
We are spiritually dead we are rescued because God gives us life. Our hearts do not function, God gives us a heart that works. A RESCUE.
When Jesus called Lazarus from the dead was Lazarus a robot?
The Lord was painting a picture of salvation.
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It is more than obvious that HE wishes all men to be saved,
If what you say is true then why would God send strong delusion?

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

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so why not simply COMMAND it or breathe it SO and DONE.
Because that is not His way.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

You think it is possible to resist Gods will, IT IS NOT.
All that God has given to Jesus will come to him. GOD cannot fail.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus only prays for those God has given him.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

True or False?

I see through the smoke and mirrors of your beliefs because they were once mine.
You don’t understand my beliefs so you see robots, and you can’t answer the questions I have asked.
How can you sell your product if you won’t answer the questions?
9  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 08, 2004, 07:15:43 PM
Part 2

I repeat, Your doctrine gives no hope for those that have lived a life of sin and now because of disease, like Alzheimer’s, or a brain injury have no ability to make such a decision.
My doctrine gives hope to ALL.
No one can know who God will or will not save, but with my doctrine salvation is available to everyone from the tiniest infant to the oldest of the old on their death bed.
It doesn’t matter how developed their mind is, it doesn’t matter if they now live their life in a vegetive state.
I have answered your accusation, your accusation is false.
You don’t seem to be able to answer my question, WHY?
Another question I asked that you have never answered:
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He doesn’t choose us because we are somehow better than someone else, it is not because He respects what kind of person we are.
Actually freewill is a gospel in which the superior people have salvation.
They are smarter or more humble than the unsaved.
Two brothers raised in the same environment, one becomes saved the other does not, WHY?
Obviously the one that becomes saved is taking the wise path the unsaved is foolish, what separates the two?
WHY does one become saved and the other does not? Is the one that becomes saved smarter, wiser, more humble? What separates the two?
Another point you have not addressed.
You claim we can seek for God.
The bible says we cannot. Which is true? I am going to go with the bible.
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There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to seek Him. If some are incapable of seeking God, why did He make that command? For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."
Yes the command goes out to seek him, but no one will seek him. It is our obligation but we will not be able to do it.

We did this verse earlier.

Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God often gives us commands to do and we have an obligation to do them but we won’t.
If you seek him with all your heart and all your soul you will find him, but we can’t devote 100% of ourselves to seeking God.

De 4:29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

As usual you are silent concerning Romans 3. WHY can’t you answer?
You think that salvation is available to every person on the planet, and yet you also claim that it is not available to those that have never heard of Jesus, WHICH IS IT?
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The third...Which was the one about people or "tribes" who hadn't heard the Bible. or come to know Jesus. The premise was whether they got to heaven or not. At first, I believed they did. The premise being our God as a merciful, Just, God. However - upon further study of the Bible, I came to discover that Jesus enters each of our lives through many different approaches, and that each man is judged on how he.she responds to His Will.
 I openly admitted my mistake, and even added several Bible verses which corresponded to the topic.
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I believe predestination is inconsistent with the Bible

There are over a hundred verses that say salvation is offered to everyone. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Then why would God send strong delusion?

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

...

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If He was the savior of the whole world you’d think He would pray for the world. He prays for those God has given him. A select group.
WHY would God send strong delusion?
WHY wouldn’t Jesus pray for the whole world?
Not only have you not answered these questions but John 17:9 ties in with John 6:37, another verse you have not answered.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus only prays for those God has given him.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 
ARE YOU CALLING JESUS A LIAR?
All that the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to him. Can’t you see that it is Gods action.
Jesus prays for them, He DOESN’T pray for the world.
WHY won’t you answer these verses?
Can’t you see that they contradict your doctrine?
WHY do you avoid answering the verses and questions I have given you?
You repeat yourself without addressing the errors in your teaching, WHY are you deaf?
WHY can’t you see:

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

God causes us to approach Him.
God chooses us.
To believe unto salvation is 100% Gods work. Look at my signature verses.
10  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 08, 2004, 07:10:51 PM
This will be in two posts I don’t have the time to edit it enough.
I am leaving for 2-3 weeks it should give you enough time to actually respond for a change. That is if you are willing.

Bronzesnake

Lets be real here.
Have you actually read my posts, and yours?
I can not, and will not however, allow you to personally call me a liar ever again John. That my friend is your final warning.
When you accuse someone of something that is not true you are bearing false witness.
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You call Jesus a liar John. I believe in Him100%
I have not called Jesus a liar. I have made it very clear I believe in Jesus 100%.
I do not agree with your definition of whosoever, I am in good company.
I ask you again, do you have the guts to answer?
Is Charles Spurgeon calling Jesus a liar?
Bronzesnake
You Lie because you have made a false accusation.
If I have called Jesus a liar, BE SPECIFIC. When and where?
If it is your claim that because I don’t agree with YOUR interpretation of the Greek word “pas”, which is interpreted as; whosoever, all, etc, then it is not that I am claiming Jesus is a liar, I am claiming that you have not yet come to understand the full meaning of this word.
Is Charles Spurgeon also calling Jesus a liar?
Charles Spurgeon, on the word pas, from his sermon, Particular Redemption.  http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.
You have also born false witness again by bringing up an error I made and corrected.
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Your positiopn is that God has preselected all those who will be saved, and the rest, or, the unsaved, Will be put to death, and sent to a burning lake of fire called Hell, (to paraphrase you)for "God's own pleasure"
You did not paraphrase me at all.
I made it very clear that because I was in a hurry to leave town, as I am today, I made a mistake in what I said concerning “God’s own pleasure”.
He has no pleasure in the wicked, that he would rescue anyone from judgment He does for His pleasure. I did not say he sends people to the lake of fire for his pleasure.
WOOOPS!!!!!!!!

Bronzesnake,

I am very sorry in my rush to get out of town I said something very wrong.

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Your response...
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The bible says He does it for His pleasure.

 My friend! - God hates for His pleasure?

I certainly didn’t word that right! As it shows in the verses I presented He saves who He chooses because it serves His pleasure.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
WHY do you bear false witness?
Are you doing it on purpose, or are you that incapable of understanding simple English?  Roll Eyes
Perhaps you don’t actually read the posts, that would explain why you have not been able to answer the points I have made.
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Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation, in spite of the fact that Jesus offered it freely to WHOSOEVER believed in Him, and WHOSOEVER called on His name.
I have shown clearly that it is your doctrine that leaves people without hope of salvation, you have not answered my posts on this.
Instead you continue to repeat the same ridiculous accusation.
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However, I do believe your doctrine is potentially harmful John. It leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation.
Quite the opposite, YOUR DOCTRINE leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation. With mine there is ALWAYS hope.
With yours there is no hope for infants or the mentally ill. How can a baby make a freewill decision?
The bible makes it clear we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born. We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Your doctrine gives no hope for those that have lived a life of sin and now because of disease, like Alzheimer’s, or a brain injury have no ability to make such a decision.
You would have to tell Mrs. Doe:
I am sorry Mrs. Doe, your son was drunk, and passing a joint to someone when his car went off the road. He has sustained a permanent brain injury. He will never know who you are or who he is, he certainly can’t know who Jesus is. Your son can make no choices, so he is going to burn in hell.
Where is the hope in your doctrine?
My doctrine gives hope to all, because the brain is not involved. It is all Gods work.
11  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 06, 2004, 05:16:51 PM
Bronzesnake
You Lie because you have made a false accusation.
If I have called Jesus a liar, BE SPECIFIC. When and where?
If it is your claim that because I don’t agree with YOUR interpretation of the Greek word “pas”, which is interpreted as; whosoever, all, etc, then it is not that I am claiming Jesus is a liar, I am claiming that you have not yet come to understand the full meaning of this word.
Is Charles Spurgeon also calling Jesus a liar?
Charles Spurgeon, on the word pas, from his sermon, Particular Redemption.  http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.

Your understanding reminds me very much of Heidi and her insistence that Jesus was not God.
She isolated a several verses of scripture and claimed Jesus was the son of God not God himself.

Mark 1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

If all we had were these types of verses then she would have a legitimate claim that Jesus was not God.
In like manner you also point to certain verses that seem to claim that we can seek him and believe on him by our freewill.

For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Isolating this verse you claim that we have the capability to seek Him.
We pointed out to Heidi verses that show that Jesus was God.

Colossians 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I pointed out to you verses that say no one can seek God.

Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Just as Heidi could not accept verses that contradicted her doctrine you cannot accept the verses that contradict your doctrine.
Heidi would repeat over and over again “Son of God”, you repeat over and over again “Whosoever”.
As Spurgeon has said and as I have said the word ‘whosoever’ <pas> is not such a concrete term that you can hang your whole eternity on one understanding, to do so is to reject a great portion of the scripture.
Jesus said Whosoever the Father GIVETH me Shall come to me.

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus only prays for those God has given him.

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

When you turn to verses such as:
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Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
You think that believing is within mans capability.
This is partially true. Man can have a type of belief, but that belief does not save.

John 12:42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

The bible speaks also of many that not only believed but also worked for the Lord, or so they believed. They were preaching Christ.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you think about this for a moment you can see that there are all sorts of people that Believe on Jesus that cannot possibly be saved.
The Pope believes on Jesus, Benny Hinn believes on Jesus, Methodists believe, Pentecostals believe, Freewill Baptists believe, Reformed Baptists believe, Mormons believe, ETC.
It is impossible that all of these people have it right.
Saving belief can only come from God.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That is from the mouth of Jesus -- are you calling Jesus a liar?

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES are those that God has given the ability to believe. Just as Heidi could not accept John chapter 1, you cannot accept John chapter 6. WHY?
The “whosoever” <pas> that believe are the “all” <pas> that God has given to Jesus.
You have made many accusations not based on my testimony, but based on your assumptions.
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How do you personally know that you are one of the "pre-selected john? Is is just because you "feel" saved? or did God actually speak to you/ Charlie Manson claimed that Jesus spoke to him, is he saved? how about all the other tyrants throughout history who "talked" to God? Are they also included in the "pre-selected" John, maybe you aren't one of the chosen after all, perhaps God is laughing at you right now, knowing you are just a piece of human kindling, and that you are merely deluded into believing you are one of the chosen. In you doctrine, there must be millions who are in that very predicament.
I do not believe in dreams or visions.
All of these things ceased when the bible was finished and sealed.

Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

By rejecting John 6, Philippians 1:29, Romans 3:10-12, Psalms 65:4, etc, you are taking away the words of the book of Gods prophecy.
My salvation is based by the fact that I have been changed.
There were some sins I wanted out of my life, but for the most part I enjoyed my life of sin. I had a very good time.
I have no joy in sin any more.
The bible tells us to examine ourselves.

2 Corinthians 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

God changes us.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God gives us a means of testing our salvation.

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

When we look at these verses in light of Romans 7 we can see that because we still have a body of flesh we will still sin, but there is no pleasure in sin.

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I can cover this more if you need it.
How do you know you are saved?
How do you know you are not one of those spoken of in Matthew 7:22-23?
I asked you a question.
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How does your gospel work for those that have lived a life of sin and then find themselves with the mind of a child through injury or age.
You didn’t answer the question.
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This is easy John. When a person asks Jesus to enter his/her life and become their Lord and saviour - when they confess their sins to Jesus - they become cleaned, and saved. Unless a person does that, they are doomed.
What you are saying is that there is no hope for those who have lost their intellect through injury, or illness after they have lived a life of sin, they are doomed even though they still live, by your doctrine.
Heidi did not answer the verses we gave her, you do not answer the verses I give you. Why?

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
12  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 02, 2004, 04:27:42 AM
L.C. quote...

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James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Are they saved?


 No, they are not saved, because the shed blood of Jesus was not offered to them as it is to EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD, WHOSOEVER CALLS ON HIS NAME, OR BELIEVES IN HIM...WHOSOEVER That's why satan and his fallen friends hate us so much, and trick and deceive us at every opportunity. You must search yourself, and see if you have fallen into one of his evil traps John....You have.

 You call Jesus a liar John. I bel;ieve in Him100%

 Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation, in spite of the fact that Jesus offered it freely to WHOSOEVER believed in Him, and WHOSOEVER called on His name.

 You are stubornly dedicated to your own narcissistic belief John. You are unmovable, and unable to find the simple truth of the free gift offered to all men from Jesus Christ.

 I have prayed for you, and that's all I can do now. I've tried to show your mistake, and you refuse to listen, you have become arrogant in your own teachings, in spite of what Jesus repeated many,many times. May God have mercy on you John, and open your eyes to His Truth, and not yours.

Bronzesnake....THE END!

YOU LIE!
I have never called Jesus a liar.
How does your gospel work for those that have lived a life of sin and then find themselves with the mind of a child through injury or age.

You cannot answer because you have no answer.

Yours is the doctrine that offers these people no hope.
My doctrine offers salvation to all including those that you would leave out.

How can you say
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Your doctrine leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation
when you have given NO evidence or statement to support such a claim.
 
The gospel of freewill is Satans Trap, he wants you to trust in your work instead of trusting in God.
You can boast you are smarter than those that don't choose Christ.
Or you can boast you are more humble or in some other way superior to those that don't choose Christ.
Yours is a works gospel. Why would one person chose Him and their very own brother not? What separates the two?

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith is a gift from God.

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May God have mercy on you John, and open your eyes to His Truth, and not yours.
That would be God showing favor ---- ELECTION.
It maybe these things will always be hidden from you, if so then you are not one of his.
I pray he does open your eyes, that He does show you favor.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Your God would be unfair, unrighteous, and unjust. That is not the God of the bible.
How can you show me truth when you can't answer so many verses I have given you.
I have answered your verses, including whosoever, but you cannot answer most of what I have presented to you.
You want to think man can seek God.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You cannot answer the verses that say God Hates the wicked.
You cannot answer the verses that say it is God that chooses.

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

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You call Jesus a liar John. I bel;ieve in Him100%
When did I call Jesus a liar?
You don't need to slander me.

All sorts of people believe that they believe in Him 100% Including me.
Unfortunately most are wrong.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You have chosen a salvation plan of works, according to the bible that is not the gospel.
13  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 01, 2004, 11:54:51 PM


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I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.



 Huh
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You are not correct in your meaning of PAS Left Coast.

So did John the Baptist Baptize 2,000,000 people including Sadducees and Pharisees?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
14  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 01, 2004, 11:53:46 PM
Left Coast, I notice you are using "Gods elect" many times. You do know that, Gods elect is Israel, The Jewish people.
The Jewish people were a picture of those that God saves. As individuals few Jews were saved.
The Lord uses the terms Jew, Israel, and even Church to refer to the saved and to those things on earth that relate to those terms.

Romans 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Matthew 3:9  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
15  Theology / Debate / Re:a question for all of you on: August 01, 2004, 11:52:03 PM
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You can't escape it my friend. The very word "believe" denotes choice. We either believe, or we do not believe.
No it denotes a change. It was not a choice the heart is changed the change brings belief.
There are different kinds of belief. Intellectually all sorts of people believe in God. So we have various religious practices all over the world, even the most primitive tribes understand there is a God.
Even the devils believed.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Are they saved?

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Here in Jhn 1:11- "His own" - Those who He "pre-selected" denied Him John. How does that line up with your belief? It doesn't fit does it? unless you make it fit.
His own were the Jews.

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Please consider this verse John...Jhn 1:12 How does this fit into your belief? It is directly opposed to it John. There is a very good reason for that my brother. The verse is clear John... "But as many as received him" This is also directly opposed to "pre-destination" John. It does not say "as many as He selected" John.
The definition of receive is found in John 3:27.

John 3:27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Those that received Him were given that ability from heaven.
This is very similar to:

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It sounds like our work. But the bible explains it is Gods work.

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

It is difficult to search out the bible for truth.
One thing I enjoy about you is you do look to the bible, now you have to learn to look a little deeper. The bible is not always as clear as it seems.
The hardest thing to do is to resist the urge to jump to conclusions.

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to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

 John, this verse is not ambiguous in the least. "even to them that believe on His name" The word "even" in this verse makes a clear, unmistakable distinction from those who "received him" and "them that believe on His name" "to them gave he power to become the sons of God"
It is not a good idea to put so much faith on a word that is not in the scripture.

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The reason you put the word ‘even’ in brackets is because it was not a word found in the original text.
One of the reasons I like the KJV is because the KJV italicizes those words that the translators added to the translation. I often read verses by skipping over the italicized words. So this would read:

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on his name:

He gave them the power to become the sons of God.
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However, I do believe your doctrine is potentially harmful John. It leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation.
Quite the opposite, YOUR DOCTRINE leaves many, many people without any hope of salvation. With mine there is ALWAYS hope.
With yours there is no hope for infants or the mentally ill. How can a baby make a freewill decision?
The bible makes it clear we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born. We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Your doctrine gives no hope for those that have lived a life of sin and now because of disease, like Alzheimer’s, or a brain injury have no ability to make such a decision.
You would have to tell Mrs. Doe:
I am sorry Mrs. Doe, your son was drunk, and passing a joint to someone when his car went off the road. He has sustained a permanent brain injury. He will never know who you are or who he is, he certainly can’t know who Jesus is. Your son can make no choices, so he is going to burn in hell.
Where is the hope in your doctrine?
My doctrine gives hope to all, because the brain is not involved. It is all Gods work. You add mans work.
You can accept the word of God or reject the word of God, your decision.
I believe I have addressed all of your verses, I have explained them WITH scripture.
Whosoever is from the Greek word ‘pas’. It is also found:

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the definition of whosoever. Translate it this way:

Whosoever that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

You have to deal with these verses.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 
No one will come to Jesus unless God first draws them, whosoever He gives to Jesus WILL come to him.
Why do you reject the scripture?

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

He chooses us and causes us to approach Him. We don’t choose him.
If you really want faith, trust entirely on God.
You trust in your work of believing. Like the sabbath breaker, you can’t really trust in God, WHY?
As for me I will trust in the Lord. Praise be to God that I can.

John.
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