[This Is Your Weekley Reminder:]

This Is Your Weekley Reminder:

EAT FISH TODAY, IT IS FRIDAY  

NO MEAT!!!!

<))><

I didn't think you ate fish.  Not that you have ever said so, it is just that fish is brain food and I have seen your posts so naturally I assumed...  

Good answer,  

[Faith]

As far as the paralytic man...first of all, Yes, his sins were forgiven, but there were two good reasons why he was forgiven…

You gave a good and meaty answer, I enjoyed your response.
While we disagree on the meaning of the story, I feel your response is a solid and legitimate reply from the viewpoint of your doctrine.
I do have differences with your answer, but I think your argument is valid.

Faith has saved thee. Not because she was "chosen" by God, rather, because she had faith.

Faith is a work.

1 Thessalonians 1:3  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith[/u].

The friends of the paraplegic man did not have faith Jesus was the savior, they viewed him as a healer and perhaps a prophet, much like the prophets of old.

1 Kings 13:6  And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king’s hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.

Concerning your second healing, just because Jesus healed him physically does not mean He healed him spiritually. So yes, he was still under the law.
My thought is he wasn’t saved. Many that Jesus healed weren’t saved, in fact it is interesting that Jesus was the perfect preacher and yet few became saved while He walked on the earth.
After He went to the cross Peter gave one sermon and 5,000 became saved. All at once. 5,000 made a freewill decision all at the same time?
Not likely.
In fact the bible tells us it was Gods work.

Acts 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.[/u]

How can you be sure He will save anyone?
 Using your logic, God can't keep any of His promises without losing His sovereignty, so when He says "you're saved, and going to Heaven" He won't be able to keep that promise either.

He doesn’t say, "you're saved, and going to Heaven". At least I don’t hear voices.
Salvation is not a promise, it is a change.
We are born again, given a new heart, we are made into a completely different kind of a creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We have a physical body and we also have a spiritual body. Unfortunately we are born spiritually dead. That is the seed of sin in every person. Because of the sin of Adam we are separated from God.
Our salvation is a result of God changing us.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Not a promise, a change. Our soul is resurrected, just as our physical bodies will be on the Lords return.
That is why Paul talks about the war that goes on inside him. Our unsaved physical body wars with our saved soul. Because we are spiritually alive we now want to walk in His statutes.

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

One of the most destructive results of the freewill gospel is the number of people that believe they are saved, because of their choice. ----  But they were never changed.
They have accepted Jesus as their saviour, but He is not their Lord.
Look at all the “Christians” getting divorced today. (Matthew 19:6)
Look at all the “Christians” that are divorced getting remarried. (1 Corinthians 7:39)
Look at all the “Christians” living together unmarried. (Hebrews 13:4)
They can love their enemies, but they can’t love their own spouses.

They seek their happiness in sin.
They reject Gods laws and commandments, his Lordship.

What does "whosoever" mean to you L.C.?

“Whosoever believes”, the bible is crystal clear, it is His work that we believe. The whosoever are those he has chosen, and drawn to Him.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

We are not able to have saving belief on our own. We can have an intellectual understanding, the same kind of belief that the devils had.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

John 12:42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

I think where you are getting confused is in the fact that God is omniscient,  and inevitably knows who will choose Jesus and who won't, so in that manner - yes, there is “predestination”.

That would be called “foresight” not predestination.
Let the bible define predestination.

Ephesians 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Verse 9-He made his will known to us, according to His pleasure and His purpose.
Verse 11-Predestinated by His purpose, who works all things by His will.
Verse 13-Because it is His will and purpose we hear the truth, we believe, and are sealed

Ephesians 1:19  And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

We believe ACCORDING to the WORKING OF HIS POWER, not our working.

No one can withstand God if it is His intent to save them:

Acts 11:17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

That's close, but no cigar my friend.

 Free will says..."I have accepted your sacrafise Jesus, and now I am saved. You promised to save me, so now I believe you will do it"

Bronzesnake

It still makes God obligated to fulfill what you believe to be his promise.
He is no longer sovereign.
Plus we still have that paralytic man example, no freewill decision there.  
Your heart has to be changed -- Born Again -- you can’t do that.
You can contribute just as much to your second birth as you did to your first -- did you get your parents together?  

John

[God will circumcise thine heart]

L.C.

I apologize, I see now that you are sincere in your beliefs, and not just an antagonist.

Thank You,
I am very sincere, and devoted to the Lord.

I do, however, disagree with you on a few of your doctrinal stances. Free will is one of them.

 I assume you are a Calvinist.

While I often use the term Calvinist, I actually don’t know that much of what he believed having only read a little of his teachings. I am probably as much a Calvinist as you are an Arminian.
I am not offended to be called a Calvinist, but the term conjures up an image that is not faithful to true Calvinism.
Most think in terms of Hyper-Calvinism. The word ‘Hyper’ not how we define it today, it is an Old-English term meaning higher.
Here is a good explanation from the Founders website. http://www.founders.org/FJ24/sidebar2.html

In one sense, hyper-Calvinism, like Arminianism, is a rationalistic perversion of true Calvinism. Whereas Arminianism destroys the sovereignty of God, hyper-Calvinism destroys the responsbility of man. The irony is that both Arminianism and hyper-Calvinism start from the same, erroneous rationalistic presupposition: Man's ability and responsibility are coextensive. That is, they must match up exactly or else it is irrational. If a man is to be held responsible for something, then he must have the ability to do it. On the other hand, if a man does not have the ability to perform it, he cannot be obligated to do it.
The Arminian looks at this premise and says, "Agreed! We know that all men are held responsbile to repent and believe [which is true, according to the Bible]; therefore we must conclude that all men have the ability in themselves to repent and believe [which is false, according to the Bible]." Thus, Arminians teach that unconverted people have within themselves the spiritual ability to repent and believe.
The hyper-Calvinist takes the same premise (that man's ability and responsibility are coextensive) and says, "Agreed! We know that, in and of themselves, all men are without spiritual ability to repent and believe [which is true, according to the Bible]; therefore we must conclude that unconverted people are not under obligation to repent and believe the gospel [which is false, according to the Bible]."
In contrast to both of these, the Calvinist looks at the premise and says, "Wrong! While it looks reasonable, it is not biblical. The Bible teaches both that fallen man is without spiritual ability and that he is obligated to repent and believe. Only by the powerful, regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is man given the ability to fulfuill his duty to repent and believe." And though this may seem unreasonable to rationalistic minds, there is no contradiction, and it is precisely the position the Bible teaches.

 
Salvation is a rescue. All of us are condemned to Hell by our own actions, we do choose our sins. But we will always sin, because we are born with a corrupt heart.
That heart is the problem.
God has chosen to rescue some from this terrible situation. He does not predestine some to Hell, He just passes over them.
God is not obligated to save anyone, that He does is because of His great mercy.
Freewill makes man Lord over God. Freewill says, “I’ve done it Lord, I accept Jesus and now you are OBLIGATED to save me. You Promised. So you have to do it.”
God lays out commandments for us to do, we cannot do those commandments perfectly because our heart and our body is corrupt. Your example from Deuteronomy 30 shows this perfectly.

Deuteronomy 30:16  In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

The problem is nobody can, the heart is the problem.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The concept of God commanding us to do the impossible shows up in many places in the bible.

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

How do you circumcise the foreskin of your heart?
Before someone starts carving away at their chest the answer is in, SURPRISE, Deuteronomy 30.

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

We cannot change our own heart, but God can. After the change of heart (done by God) in verse 6 then we are able to obey verses 11-19.

We see this same principle in Ezekiel and Hebrews:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Are we saved by keeping Gods commandments? Wouldn’t you agree that would be a work?
Yet we are commanded to believe.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The bible answers that God gives us a heart that can believe.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is His work in us.

John

"No we don't.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"

Paul is addressing the church at Ephesus, the saved. in these quoted verses and it has nothing to do with God choosing them in their initial coming to Christ, It has to do with what God  gives to those that are already His, (in this case the church at Ephesus),  through their faith in Christ. Which faith by the way is obtained by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The word having called them to faith in Christ.
Ollie

That's an interesting thought and worthy of consideration.
Thank You, Ollie
John

[shall]

Bronze
I appreciate your answer, thank you.
The search for truth should never end, no one has perfect understanding.

1 Corinthians 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Even when I was certain I knew the truth I was never so vain as to believe I could be without error. So yes I do search for the truth, on my knees before God I seek wisdom and truth, try it some time.
It is because I searched for truth that I am no longer an Atheist.
It is because I searched for truth that I am no longer a Reincarnationist.
It is because I searched for truth, on my knees, that I am no longer a Freewill Believer.
You still haven’t answered how I have warped the scripture.
I gave you sources of respectable Christians who believe similar to me because you accused me of warping the scripture or of being a pretend Christian antagonist. If I am, then so are those I mentioned and many more, is that still your accusation?
Spurgeon ? The original Southern Baptists? James P. Boyce? Dr. Barnhouse? John Bunyan? (I didn’t know Bunyan had been given a Lordship, were you thinking of Lord Byron?) Are these great Christian teachers and preachers warping scripture?

How do you know that? Did you speak to him personally? He was healed, but we don't know if he was saved. There is a differnce between being healed and being saved, or don't you understand that either?

His sins were forgiven. What do you think that means? It seems to me you are the one that doesn’t quite understand.
First he was saved THEN he was healed.

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

The faith they had was Jesus would heal him of his infirmity. They had faith in Jesus, but they had no knowledge of his ability to save man.

Mark 2:7  Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mark 2:8  And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mark 2:9  Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mark 2:10  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mark 2:11  I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
Mark 2:12  And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

You have not answered, other than to say I warp scripture (how?), most of the verses I have given you.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Verse 37 Everyone that the Father gives to Jesus WILL come to him.
Verse 44 No one can come to Jesus unless God draws him.
Verse 45 Those that are taught of God are those that are drawn toward Jesus.
You never answered Romans 9:13-16, Deuteronomy 32:25, Psalms 58:3, Isaiah 48:8, James 1:18, basically all of John 6, Ephesians 2:10, 1 Peter 1:2, etc.
You are not telling the truth when you say:

I answered, you refused to listen.

We can both claim that the other takes verses out of context, when I make the claim I do try to show you how you have taken them out of context.

Why bother putting all those poor lost souls through the torture of life? Why doesn't God just wipe them out - they're not going to Heaven anyway...right?

The bible seems to give an indication by living on this earth he is creating something special. We are his workmanship, it seems the wicked are necessary to create what he wants in us. I am not absolutely clear on this, I could be way off base.
Your question was an old question.

Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And why did Jesus lie and say, whoever believes in Me shall be saved?

It wasn’t a lie, whosoever is those that God draws. Our ability to have saving belief is Gods work. John 6, etc.
Many believe but not to salvation. Even the devils believe.

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The bible mentions that many that believe and call Jesus Lord, and work for him, He never knew.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Please don’t be offended, I am not sure if you understand what salvation is.

Also, why did Jesus have to come and be crucified?

To pay for the sins of those that he came to save. Sin requires a payment, the wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23)
It is the second death.

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It was necessary for Jesus to make that payment for those that he came to save. Once the payment is made it never needs to be made again, that is why Jesus didn’t make the payment for every person on the planet. He can’t go back and get a refund on the enormous suffering that he endured.
He began paying for our sins at the Garden of Gethsemane. This will be too long, if you do understand it is not necessary to continue. If you wish I can explain further.
Concerning your verses, I will try to be brief.
Matthew 19:28-29 does not say anything about freewill. Those that follow are those that God has chosen.
Mark 16:16, John 3:16, Acts 16:31, and all other verses that talk about believing I explained earlier, it is Gods work that we believe. John 6, Philippians 1:29,

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

There is a companion verse to explain the following verses:

Acts 2:21
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13

It is Gods work in us, notice how much this following verse resembles Romans 10:9.

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

One of the problems that you are having comes from a misunderstanding of the Greek word <pas>.
The translators recognized that the word ‘pas’ has many meanings, so it was translated in many ways.
all 748 times, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
John 3:16 -- whosoever <pas>
1 Timothy 2:4 -- all <pas> men
Etc.
If we look at other places where this word shows up we might begin to see other possibilities.

Matthew 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <pas> Jerusalem with him.

Was ALL of Jerusalem troubled?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

ALL the land of Judaea, approx. 2,000,000 people. ALL baptized, Pharisees too? John was a very busy guy.
 
Luke 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all <pas> the world should be taxed.
Luke 2:3  And all <pas> went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Was ALL the world taxed?

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That’s an interesting one, --- ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me. Does this fit your definition of ‘all’?

Acts 10:38  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all <pas> that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Is that right? He healed ALL that were oppressed of the devil?

The word pas can also mean “all manner of” as in:

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of <pas> sickness and all manner of <pas>  disease among the people.

This is an excellent and acceptable interpretation for the types of verses you put your eternity on.

John

I had fish on Saturday, did I goof?  
My neighbor caught some Sturgeon, gave me a small chunk, enough to feed 5!  
I suppose Sturgeon is an unclean meat, it even has the texture of pork.  
I like Spurgeon, er,  woops -- Sturgeon.   OK I like both.
He didn't give me any caviar though.  

Bronze
Are you interested in searching for truth?

Don’t be so judgmental. The Gospel does offend, please consider that.
You don’t understand and so you say:

I'm not sure whether you're a pretend Christian antagonists, or if you are simple warping scripture, although I'm beginning to suspect the former.

You Judge Me, I am neither.  
How have I warped scripture? Because I have given you verses you can’t answer?  
The Paralytic man did not choose.  
I gave you verses that show that God chooses. “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”
Nowhere does the bible mention we must make a FREEWILL choice.

Now you're being ridiculous! When did I ever say salvation depends on our works? We must either choose Jesus or reject Him L.C. that has nothing to do with works.

Choosing is a work.
It requires our effort. If not, then even babies could choose. Some people have a great deal of difficulty making choices. Some people don’t make good choices.
Choosing IS a work.

If what you say is true, then we can do anything we want to regardless of how vile or self serving it is, and everyone gets saved because Jesus will "rescue us" If that's true then all the Hell scriptures as well as all the consequences of sin scriptures are all wrong. What a load!

I never said everyone gets saved --- Not sure why you came up with that.
I said:

None of us deserve to be saved from Gods judgment. We all deserve hell. God in His mercy has decided to save a remnant of all men. He chooses who he is going to save, that is the definition of being elect. Not that we choose him.

Have you read my posts??? Or do you just skim.
He will rescue -- save -- those that he has chosen from before the foundation of the earth.

IT IS THE FREEWILL GOSPEL THAT HAS JESUS PAYING FOR THE SINS OF EVERY SINGLE PERSON --- therefore none would have to go to hell to pay for their sins. You got it backwards.

You misunderstand the verses you quoted. The bible says it is Gods work that we believe.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

That is one of the most far fetched, goofy pieces of biblical misinterpretation I've heard in a long time!

May I suggest you read the works of these goofy guys:  


*John Bunyan (best known for The Pilgrim's Progress) http://www.johnbunyan.org/

From -- SAVED BY GRACE http://www.johnbunyan.org/text/bun-saved.txt

“"BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED."—EPHESIANS 2:5.
In the first chapter, from the fourth to the twelfth verse, the apostle is treating of the doctrine of election, both with respect to the act itself, the end, and means conducing thereto. The act, he tells us, was God's free choice of some (verse 4,5,11).”
 
*Charles Spurgeon http://www.spurgeon.org/mainpage.htm

From -- Elijah's Appeal to the Undecided:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0134.htm

“I may preach to you, my hearers; and all the ministers in the world may preach to you that are wavering, but you will never decide for God through the force of your own will. None of you, if left to your natural judgment, to the use of your own reason, will ever decide for God. You may decide for him merely as an outward form, but not as an inward spiritual thing, which should possess your heart as a Christian, as a believer in the doctrine of effectual grace. I know that none of you will ever decide for God's gospel, unless God decide you; and I tell you that you must either be decided by the descent of the fire of his Spirit into your hearts now, or else in the day of judgment.”

*The founders of the SOUTHERN BAPTIST faith, http://www.founders.org/
When the original charter of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858 every professor had to agree with the abstract of principles, this was the first recognized confession of faith of the Southern Baptists.
http://www.founders.org/abstract.html
V. Election.
Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life -- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ -- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.
X. Faith.
Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.

The former President of the Southern Baptist Seminary and namesake of their college:
* James P. Boyce
I recommend reading his Abstract of Systematic Theology. http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/toc.html

From the chapter on Election, http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch29.html
“The texts thus exhibited under these three classes prove conclusively that not on account of their own merits, but because of the good pleasure of God, does he choose men.”
 
From the chapter on Outward And Effectual Calling, http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch31.html
“The atoning work of Christ was not sufficient for the salvation of man.
That work was only Godward, and removed only all the obstacles in the way of God's pardon of the sinner.
But the sinner is also at enmity with God, and must be brought to accept salvation, and must learn to love and serve God.
The first step here is to make known to man the gospel, which contains the glad tidings of this salvation, under such influences as ought to lead to its acceptance.
The Gospel is, therefore, commanded to be proclaimed to every creature, inasmuch as there is in the work of Christ a means of redemption for every one.
This is the external call of the Gospel.
This proclamation, however, meets with no success because of the willful sinfulness of man, although, in itself, it has all the elements which should secure its acceptance.
God knowing that this is true, not only of all mankind in general, but even of the elect whom he purposes to save in Christ, gives to these such influences of the Spirit as will lead to their acceptance of the call. This is called Effectual Calling.”

There are many more Goofy Guys out there, none are perfect. This should keep you busy for a while. I also am not perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, but you have not addressed the verses I have given. Instead you seek to criticize.

I’ll add one more goofy guy incase you prefer to listen instead of read.
*Dr. Donald Barnhouse http://www.accradio.com/Barnhouse/Programs.htm

I am not antagonistic toward you, I pray God will give you wisdom. You need it, your path is wrong.

Proverbs 16:25  There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

John

Hi Heidi
Yes, we have many similar beliefs.
In line with what you are saying, we can know that if we are one of those that God has chosen we will not be deceived.

Matthew 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

"If it were possible", fortunatly God does protect us, so it is not.  
John

 So, we're all robots are we?

 Those verses have absolutely nothing to do with our ability to choose. They speak of the fact that God gives us enough wisdom in order for us to make the correct choice. If we don't have free will to choose, or reject Him - then why does anyone end up in Hell?
...

 Please think carefully about this  

Bronzesnake.

I understand your confusion. I used to believe salvation was dependent on our work of choosing, also.
When you are convinced salvation is based on the work that you do, you feel that what I am saying is that God forces us to do the work, making us robots or slaves.
No work is required of man --- NONE. It is a rescue.
In the book of Mark there is an interesting story about a paralytic man. His friends carried him to Jesus so he could be healed of his paralysis.
In his eyes Jesus was a healer, not a savior, not a sacrificial lamb, he had no idea Jesus could forgive him for his sins.
His friends lowered him down through the roof so that Jesus could heal him. Instead Jesus forgave him of his sins. No freewill choice, no personal decision, was he a robot?

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

He received salvation but he didn’t ask for it or seek it.
A dead person has no freewill. A dead person can’t believe. A dead person can’t actively receive.
We have the story of Lazarus.
4 days in the grave ---- he was rotting.
Jesus commanded him to come forth, he did.

John 11:43  And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Was Lazarus a robot?
Man is spiritually dead.
Jesus calling Lazarus forth is a picture of salvation. I believe Lazarus was saved before he died, but God puts the story in the bible to paint the picture of salvation.
Do the dead have freewill? Do the dead choose?

Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Our salvation is dependent COMPLETELY on Gods grace. His Mercy. He chooses who he is going to be merciful to.
So what can we do? Is there no hope? Should we just sit around and wait for God to hit us in the back of the head with salvation? NO!!!
Get on your knees. Plead with God for mercy. Seek him out in the word. Read and study and pray. Do everything you can to keep yourself from sin. Show God you are SERIOUS about wanting to spend your life with Him.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

God is merciful. He is not obligated to save a person, but who knows perhaps He will. One thing is very likely if we do not seek him it is very unlikely we will find him.
Sadly on judgment day there are going to be a lot of people who thought they did what was necessary to get themselves saved. They did the work required. Everyone told them, “You’ve done it, you have come forward and confessed and asked Jesus into your heart. Now you are saved.”
They go to work to convince others to join up. They teach Sunday school. They become pastors. Missionaries. Etc. Working to cast the devil out of others. Unfortunately they trusted in their work, not Gods work in them.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So many people put their faith in their work.

Titus 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Please think carefully about this  

I did that is why I no longer believe in the freewill gospel.  
John

[shall]

L.C.

  What does God do with the mentally retarded? I guess God tosses them in the pit also.

 Our God is a loving, merciful God L.C. He is the righteous judge, do you understand what that means?
 Bronzesnake.

If you believe salvation is based on mans freewill decision then the answer would have to be yes, they would go to the pit too.
In fact don’t stop there.
How about someone that has suffered severe brain damage? Maybe they have Alzheimer’s, or some other illness.
Maybe their brain was injured. What are you going to say?
“Well Mrs. Smith, your son Bobby wrecked his car because he was drunk. He had drugs in his system, and he was running from the police because he had robbed a store.
Now he is a complete vegetable, and incapable of ever making a decision again.
He is going to go to hell because it is now impossible for him to make a freewill decision for Christ.”
That is the hope of the freewill Gospel, it puts salvation into the ability of the individual.
As individuals our abilities vary, our ability to make decisions vary. The freewill gospel is not loving, not merciful, not righteous and not fair.
It is also not the gospel.
None of us deserve to be saved from Gods judgment. We all deserve hell. God in His mercy has decided to save a remnant of all men. He chooses who he is going to save, that is the definition of being elect. Not that we choose him.

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God draws those he intends to save. He will lose none of them.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Do you ever pray for someone to become saved? If you do, and I hope you do, then you are asking God to treat them better than he treats someone else. Now if salvation is dependent on our decision that would be asking God to be unfair and treat some better than others. If it's all dependent on your choice, is it right if God assists someone to make sure they make the right choice? The unsaved could rightfully claim, “I would have chosen you if you had given me the same help you gave Mr. Bronzesnake.”
If salvation is because God chooses to be merciful to some then you are only asking God if he might possibly rescue someone. God chooses who he is going to be merciful to.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It is not by our will, it is by Gods mercy.
God does save children, he does save the mentally deficient, he does save those in foreign lands, but he does not do it through freewill decisions. That was the statement you made at the very beginning that I had to expose as false.

It's a simple statement neo, however, I'll simplify further for you...
 
 God gave each of us free will to choose Him or to choose an eternity in Hell...We choose.
 

No we don’t.
God chooses.

Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Please think carefully about this,
John

Tom if you don‘t feel you are able to answer so be it.  

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Here's a quote from one of my dad's studies that I reviewed recently. He is with his Lord and Saviour, so he will not be here to debate, and neither will I.

"Since all are born in sin, are infants lost?  Infants die physically because of Adam's sin, not because they have sinned - Romans 5:12-14.  Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.  Babies went to a place of bliss in the Old Testament - II Samuel 12:23.  They are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven - Matthew 18:3-5, 10; 19:14.  Infants know nothing of rejecting Christ, and that is what causes one to be lost - John 3:15-18.  (Some reach the age of accountability before others do)."

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

This isn’t talking about physically dying.
We are estranged from God as soon as we are born. It is very clear language -- from the womb. How much younger can your fictitious age of accountability be.

Infants and idiots do not know what it means to transgress any law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law - Romans 5:13.

Then it is better not to evangelize because when someone knows the law they fall under Gods judgment.
It would have been better to have left the cannibals alone.
The fact is all, including babies, have sinned.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2 Samuel 12:22  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2 Samuel 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

This is speaking specifically about David’s child -- No mention of it referring to all babies. That is taking it completely out of context. As stated earlier David knew God had saved his child.

Matthew 18:1 ¶  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Matthew 18:2  And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Matthew 18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:5  And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Matthew 18:6  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Jesus explains that we must come to Jesus as a humble child. Somehow the children believe in Him -- verse 6. That cannot be done by freewill. So how does a baby believe?
The freewill gospel is not a humble gospel.
The freewill teaching is -- God I accept Jesus as my savior, now you have to save me.
The true gospel is reflected in the publican.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
 
There is no pride in the quest, no “Lord I accept Jesus so now you are obligated to save me.”
The only cry can be, “Lord have mercy.”

Matthew 18:10  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

This verse like 19:13-14 addresses those that ignore the children, shutting them up in nurseries away from the saving word of God.
There is an idea that because of the age of accountability we don’t need to bring those noisy children into the sanctuary. After all they interfere with the adults trying to listen to the pastor. That is how you despise children.  

Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

God does choose to save some children, but the requirement is to hear the gospel. If a child has never heard the word then I am sorry to say there is no scripture that says they will be with the Lord.
That is why in Deuteronomy 32:25 the children are destroyed by God. The key is found in verse 15. Jeshurun lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation, (Christ). The word was not heard, the people went astray.

Deuteronomy 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

The result:

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

[estranged from the womb]

L.C.

 We are not arguing the fact that we all sin, even children are born into sin. We are debating whether children go to Hell.

 I'm saying, there is an age of accountability when we become responsible to choose or deny Jesus. Children are not able to comprehend this.

 God doesn't send children to Hell. There isn't any scriptures which tell us this.

 I believe I have provided more than ample scriptural evidence to show I am correct on this topic.

 You may choose to disagree, that's your prerogative.

What is the purpose of your argument? To show God destroys children?

Bronzesnake.

You havn't shown any scripture to support an age of accountability.
Sin demands a payment.
I'm in a hurry but I think you know the verse --- "the wages of sin is death". I am not sure I quoted it exactly.
Jesus paid for our sins.  
People don’t seem to really understand what Jesus did. He literally paid the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for every sin I ever have or ever will commit. This began at the garden of Gethsemane.

Matthew 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Let’s count backwards.
Sunday    Day 1
Sat. night   Night 1
Sat.        Day 2
Fri. night   Night 2
Friday      Day 3
Thurs. night   Night 3
Where was Jesus Thursday night?
In the garden of Gethsemane.
That is when He began suffering. He began to pay for the sins of those He came to save. He literally suffered the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for each sin. We see a key when it says he sweated as it were great drops of blood.

Luke 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Our sins are washed clean by the blood of Christ. He was also in agony.

Every sin that has ever been commited demands payment, even the sins of children.
You are right children cannot comprehend Jesus that is why the idea of salvation being based on our freewill decision is impossible.
There is scripture that says God judges children, I gave it to you.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

There are some children that do go to hell, that is if you believe the bible, and I do.
The purpose of the arguement is to show that salvation is not by our work of believing. That is a work.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are control freeks, we want to be in control of everything; we cannot control our salvation.
The bible says babies are estranged from God.
If you are estranged from God YOU ARE NOT SAVED.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The bible clearly makes it known children need Jesus also.

Matthew 19:13  Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

The freewill gospel cannot be supported by the bible, and so they have to add such things as an age of accountability to make it work.
I am sorry but there is no such thing.

I had to whip this out quickly as I am headed out for a few days. If you have any questions, when I return I will answer the best I can.

John

Trev asks:

Why would God give us the Ten Commandments if there was no way of keeping them? I don't understand how God can ask the impossible.

The Hebrews couldn't keep all of God's laws - that's why they had to make sacrifices at the alter.
We are so blessed that Jesus made the Final Sacrifice!

The Bible says "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13 KJV

One of my favorite verses!  And... you may have me there... I'm not sure I can answer you.  Jesus said if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains - but we don't see a lot of mountains being moved... (has any mortal ever accomplished the feat?)

As I have said all along, God never asks the impossible.

And to prove it was possible to keep His laws, He came to earth as a man and never sinned.  If we only had His strength...  But we don't (at least I don't).

God wants us to live perfect lives.  I certainly can't - though I wish I could.
 

God Bless,
JN

Good post
When we become saved it is our desire to obey God because God has changed the heart.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

But we still have a body of flesh that will sin. It creates quite a war in us.

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

["Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it and they shall possess it"]

Bronzesnake,
I wish I had more time to contribute, this topic is moving faster than I can keep up. We seem to be a little off topic, but I would like to reply.

 I disagree with you on this one L.C.

Deuteronomy 1: 39 "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it and they shall possess it"

Remember Deut. 32 -- the suckling also.

Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

The scripture must be in harmony, as I understand your interpretation of Deuteronomy 1:39 it contradicts Psalms 58 and Isaiah 48.

Psalms 58:2  Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Deuteronomy 1:39 is referring the sin committed by the Jews concerning the promised land. If you are looking for an age of accountability out of this that would be age 20. The little ones and children this is talking about are those under age 20.

Numbers 14:29  Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

Numbers 32:11  Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Numbers 32:12  Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.
Numbers 32:13  And the LORD’S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
 
 

Another Scripture which we might consider is in 2 Samuel 12:22-23. David appeared to have little doubt that when his new little baby died, that child was safe...

 2 Samuel 12: 22-23 "So he said, 'While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me"

 David had little doubt that - in some future state - he would meet up with his baby again.

David’s child was taken because of David’s sin.
David knew his son was saved. God gave him that comfort. The child did not make a freewill decision, God rescued him. Saved him.
God does save babies in exactly the same way every person is saved, it is entirely His action.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

James 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

These verses and so many more teach that God must choose us and draw us. He looses none that He has chosen.
I have not questioned the ability of God to save children. The problem arises when you try to establish an age of accountability.
There is much evidence that 20 cannot be the age, yet it is the only possibility available with scripture.
The age of accountability was invented by man to make the idea of freewill salvation work.
It is adding to the prophesy of the book.

Revelation 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

When we understand that salvation is 100% Gods work, and man can do nothing to guarantee his salvation we find that God not only saves the old and the young but He even saves the unborn, by changing their hearts, (born again B4 birth  ).

John the Baptist and Jeremiah were saved while still in the womb. True joy is salvation.

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.