[saves]

WOOOPS!!!!!!!!

Bronzesnake,

I am very sorry in my rush to get out of town I said something very wrong.

Your response...

The bible says He does it for His pleasure.

 My friend! - God hates for His pleasure?

I certainly didn’t word that right! As it shows in the verses I presented He saves who He chooses because it serves His pleasure.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Thessalonians 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

He has no pleasure in the wicked, therefore He has no pleasure in hating men. And the bible says clearly that He hates the wicked.

Psalms 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 5:6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Yes, God does hate iniquity.
The bible could have said ‘thou hatest all iniquity’, and ‘the LORD will abhor deceit’.
That is not what Psalm 5 says, it says He hates sinners.
A far cry from he loves the sinner but he hates the sin.

This is where your freewill decision comes in.

You can accept what the bible says as the word of God, or you can reject these verses.
The verses are clear.
He hates the wicked.
God HATED Esau.

Malachi 1:2  I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

How long are you going to trust in the wisdom of men instead of the word of God?

Perhaps you should read "a little more carefully" my friend...


 Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.  


Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!  

 Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!  


 Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.  

None of these verses say that the rich cannot be saved.
None of these verses say the young ruler was not saved.
None of these verses say the rich young ruler turned his back on salvation.
People don’t turn away from Christ Grieving.
The turn away because of pride, pride won’t allow them to grieve.
I stand by my explanation. It is difficult to give up what we love, but not impossible.
Contrary to what you may think there will be many wealthy people that turn to the Lord.
Solomon being a rich young ruler, that the Lord loved.

2 Samuel 12:24  And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

When did God save you John? If God chose you from before the beginning, then you were always saved...right? So why did the change begin? When did the change begin? I'll bet it began after you "got on my knees and pleaded for him to have mercy on me." That's when you freely accepted Jesus into your life John - and that's when your life began to change. After that, your salvation was guaranteed.

 Why would you even have to ask Him for mercy, if you were already saved John? It doesn't make sense.

I don’t know when I became saved. Some people may know immediately, I did not. I do know it did not happen the first time I went to my knees, or the second or the third.
I had to spend a lot of time on my knees.
There was a time when I thought we are saved when God begins to draw us, because God cannot fail, salvation was guaranteed. That is not what I believe today.
It is true that John Bunyan taught we are saved from the very beginning. He was a great Christian, that is not something I agree with him on.
Guaranteeing salvation and being saved are different. A doctor can guarantee to save your leg before he operates but the leg is saved after the operation is finished.
We are saved when we are Born Again.
It is an excellent term. What can any person contribute to their birth?
Can you get your parents together?
Can you decide the moment of your birth?
When we are born again we become an entirely different kind of a creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That is the point of salvation, it is the result of God changing our heart. It is a rescue type of salvation.

Ezekiel 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


2 Long
so
2 Parts

I expect the members of the forum to make foolish remarks like, “you’re lost...or you are unsaved” people say foolish things.
However I hold those responsible for administrating the forum to a higher standard.
When the moderator tells someone who has openly said they have accepted Jesus into their heart, that they are lost it goes against my grain.
Quote from: blackeyedpeas on July 10, 2004, 04:50:23 AM
Heidi,

Heidi, you are lost. Many here will help you and pray for you.

Love,
Tom
 
 
Only God knows the heart.

Hello Left Coast,

There was really nothing to judge when Heidi posted all over the forum that Jesus Christ is not God. So, I would have no clue who she believes in. Those in Islam also believe in Jesus, but he was just a man or a prophet according to them. Since Jesus is the only WAY, they couldn't possibly be saved. That's simply a statement, on their part, that they are lost.

I have no problem at all in calling you brother, even though we disagree with a lot of things. We can each pick and choose what we wish to debate and simply agree to disagree.

I would second the thoughts of Bronzesnake. I hope that you reconsider and stay.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Heidi said clearly that Jesus Christ was her Lord and Savior, a considerable difference between her and those of Islam.
Heidi believed Jesus Christ was the SON of God, a considerable difference between her and those of Islam.
Heidi did not understand that Jesus was also God, a difficult thing to understand for some.
Being your own son, sounds like a bad Jeff Foxworthy joke.
We can not know who is and who is not saved, only God can know the heart.
We can not even know our own hearts, the bible says our hearts deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

["God is no respecter of persons."]

selective salvationists say God has chosen certain people over other people. Yet, the Bible says God does not pick one person over another. For example, Acts 10:34 says, "God is no respecter of persons."

He doesn’t choose us because we are somehow better than someone else, it is not because He respects what kind of person we are.
Actually freewill is a gospel in which the superior people have salvation.
They are smarter or more humble than the unsaved.
Two brothers raised in the same environment, one becomes saved the other does not, WHY?
Obviously the one that becomes saved is taking the wise path the unsaved is foolish, what separates the two?
The bible says it is because God CHOSE one over the other.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I need to head out of town for a few days so I am going to have to wrap this up.
Much of your understanding of election is Hyper-Calvinist, that is common. I hope I may have given you some understanding as to where I differ from that idea.
The bible does not contradict there are a lot of contradictions with what you say and what the bible says.

John 6 says it very clearly.
No one can come to Jesus unless God draws them.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Everyone that God gives to Jesus will come to him.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus says clearly that He did not come for everyone. He hides the truth from some.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Much of the bible is parabolic. Israel represented the believers. They were elect because the believers are elect.
This is a picture of the salvation process.
The Sabbath is also a picture of the salvation process. That is why it was a shadow pointing to Christ. That is why NO work could be done on the Sabbath.
The Sabbath breaker felt he needed to do something, he couldn’t trust God entirely. So he picked up a few sticks on the Sabbath, God said stone him to death.

Numbers 15:32  And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Numbers 15:33  And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

Numbers 15:35  And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

The freewill gospel like the sabbath breaker doesn’t trust entirely on God, there is a feeling we must do something.
The great danger with the freewill gospel is people trusting in their work of believing, and never becoming truly broken before God.
My ex-wife is one of those people.
She has accepted Jesus as her savior but not as her Lord.
She rejects his laws and commandments claiming, “I have accepted Jesus as my savior, so these sins I do are covered.”
She is living with her boyfriend, after partying and sleeping with him for several years. But it is OK because she made a freewill decision.

You would not expect to find a loving God arbitrarily choosing to hate people (and condemning them to Hell before they were even created) simply because "He can."

The bible says He does it for His pleasure.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Thessalonians 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

None of us have the right to complain.

Romans 9:14 ¶  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Romans 9:24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Predestination completely contradicts the issue of choice ( I know you don't believe in choice, yet you told me that you chose jesus, and He also chose you)...

It only contradicts SALVATION by choice.
I wanted the Lord very much in my life, I got on my knees and pleaded for him to have mercy on me. That does not guarantee salvation.
When God saved me He changed me so that I could accept Him in truth, and into my heart. God had to give me a heart that could believe first. He had to take out my heart of stone and give me a heart of flesh.

Love is an emotion that is earned. You can’t force someone to love you. In order for us to truly have the ability to love God, we need to have the ability to reject Him. You can’t love if you don’t have the ability to hate L.C..

We can only truly love him if our heart has been changed. That is not forcing, that is a rescue.
Circumcision - open heart surgery performed by the master surgeon.
I don’t think it is a coincidence that circumcision requires the shedding of blood, circumcision of the heart requires the shedding of Christ’s blood.  

I have to go drive about 500 miles before noon tomorrow, it’s 3:30 right now.
Gotta Go,
John

["everyone," - "whosoever,"]

The Bible has over a hundred verses that clearly say salvation is offered to "everyone," - "whosoever," and the whole "world." Yet, selective salvationists say salvation is only offered to the select few. To get around these verses, selective salvationists say these verses are only talking about the elect. In other words, verses that say "… salvation is offered to everyone" should actually be read as "… salvation is offered to everyone of the elect." To force this type of interpretation on hundreds of verses, selective salvationists have violated multiple basic rules of Biblical interpretation.

There are not hundreds of verses, there are a few.
The bible is not the English translations. The word of God is found in the original texts in the original languages.
In the original language the word whosoever is the Greek word <PAS>.
If you compare scripture with scripture you will find that the word PAS rarely refers to every single person - an inclusive term.
Usually it is referring to a limited group of people - an exclusive term.

Matthew 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <PAS> Jerusalem with him.

PAS Jerusalem? Every person in Jerusalem was troubled?

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all <PAS> manner of sickness and all <PAS> manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 8:16  When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all <PAS> that were sick:

Did he heal ‘all’ sickness and ‘all’ disease or just certain people.

Matthew 21:22  And all things <PAS>, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive

Everything you pray for?

Mark 1:37  And when they had found him, they said unto him, All <PAS> men seek for thee.
 
Every single person was seeking him?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <PAS> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <PAS> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Do you really think that John baptized over 2,000,000 people including the pharisees?

John 6:37  All <PAS> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Is that ‘all’ that God gives to Jesus will come to him OR is that ‘all’ that choose Jesus will come to him.
There is a contradiction between your understanding and this verse.
This is why it is so important to compare scripture with scripture.
No one can come to God unless He draws them first. Everyone He draws will come. If God could fail then He would be an impotent God.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

We are taught of God, it is His work.

In addition to the above problem, there are many verses where this type of forced conclusion still would not work. For example, 1 Johnn 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world." Using your rules of interpretation, this verse should read: "He is the atoning sacrifice for the elect’s sins, and not only for the elect’s sins, but also for the sins of the elect." (I'm not trying to put words into your mouth my friend, I'm simply trying to point out the facts)

Again compare scripture with scripture.

Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Did he deceive the whole world or just the wicked?

Luke 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Was the whole world taxed?

John 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Did the whole world go after him?
The world refers to the unsaved condition of man.

John 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

He loved his own that were in the world.

John 13:1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Most important Jesus separates his people from the world.

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

He was sent to the whole world and we have an obligation to accept him, but we will not accept him in truth unless we are one of those God has given to Jesus.
All we can do is get on our knees and pray that we might be one of those.

One more section......I think

[all people]

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to seek Him. If some are incapable of seeking God, why did He make that command? For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Yes the command goes out to seek him, but no one will seek him. It is our obligation but we will not be able to do it.

We did this verse earlier.

Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God often gives us commands to do and we have an obligation to do them but we won’t.
If you seek him with all your heart and all your soul you will find him, but we can’t devote 100% of ourselves to seeking God.

De 4:29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

We tend to seek him for the wrong reasons.

John 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

The commandment to seek him is very similar to the commandment to circumcise your heart.

De 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

We are commanded to do that, but we can’t so God does it.

De 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

It is very similar to Gods commandment to believe.

1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We are not able to have saving belief so God does it.

Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Like the circumcision of the heart it is Gods work.
In fact it is BECAUSE of Gods circumcision that we are able to believe.

Eze 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to repent. If some people are incapable of repenting, why did He make that command? For example, Acts 17:30 says, "He [God] commands all people everywhere to repent."

Perhaps one reason is so we can realize just how desperate our situation is.
When we realize we can’t repent 100% it puts us on our knees.
There is another thing that I have begun to consider, God is creating something special. This is the studio, where his creation unfolds. Our lives and our trials help to mold us into the vessel he needs.

Isa 64:8  But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

We are his workmanship. He is creating a vessel to hold the Holy Spirit.

1Co 3:16 ¶  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
 

Why did Jesus have to suffer such a terrible spiritual damnation? If there is no choice in our spiritual destiny, then our spiritual "test" (and subsequent failures) could easily have been bypassed. There was no need for us to be lost and ultimately redeemed. There was no need for Jesus to suffer such a brutal, humiliating, and despicable punishment.

The wages of sin is death, the death God has in mind is the second death mentioned in Revelation.

Re 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Re 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
That first resurrection is the resurrection of the soul. Remember earlier? We are spiritually dead.
Wages implies payment, Jesus had to make the payment for sin. There was definitely a need for Jesus to suffer, or the payment would never have been made.

If selective salvation were true, you would expect an even distribution of Christians all over the world. In contrast to this, we find areas with very high concentrations of Christians and other areas with very low concentrations of Christians.

This is actually the argument for election.
If salvation is based on what we do, choosing Him, then God is not righteous.
A Mayan could legitimately say, “I would have chosen you but I never heard of you.”
A legitimate defense.
Would it be righteous for God to say, “true it was impossible for you to have chosen me but you can’t be saved unless you do therefore you go to hell. You had to do the impossible to become saved.”
To work around this unfairness in their gospel many freewill teachers will claim we are born with the necessary knowledge.
If that claim was true then indeed there would be an even distribution of Christians.
Hearing the word is necessary for salvation.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God will get the word to everyone He intends to save, that is our job, to get the word out.

Mr 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

God then uses the word to save those He has chosen.

1 Thessalonians 2:13  For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

The word works in us not by our will but by Gods will.

James 1:18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God selectively chooses who he is going to save, there is no reason why this would be an even distribution.


Still going...

[everlasting destruction]

In your belief, the core of this doctrine is the sovereignty of God and His complete control over everything. He dictates every action that takes place. That God would not be in complete control if man had a choice in his destiny. There are three problems with this view..

You don’t quite understand my belief.
A Hyper-Calvinist would claim that man has no freewill, that God makes men sin. It is a common error.
I am not a Hyper-Calvinist.
You would want to claim most, if not all, that happens on earth is determined by mans freewill. For instance we vote to choose our rulers. The bible says differently.

Ro 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Ro 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

God is in control, but within that control we also make choices.
Because of Adams sin man has been separated from God. There is a veil between man and God. We are spiritually dead. And we die physically.
When the Lord returns our physical body is resurrected into a glorious body that can never die.

Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 
This is different than what Adam had.
Adam and Eve did not have eternal life, they would not die as long as they did not sin. It was conditional. We are given eternal life, no conditions.
When we become saved our spiritual body is resurrected. We are given a new soul. That is what it means to be born again. It is a change in our heart - soul.
It is done by God, we can contribute nothing. Just as we could contribute nothing to our first birth.
While we are spiritually dead we will sin, we have no choice it is our nature. God doesn’t cause us to sin, but we will.
Because of the sins of our first parents, A&E, we will sin. But we choose our sins. And the bible does indicate that God restrains sin, if he didn’t we would destroy ourselves.
Often it reaches a point where God gives us up to our sins.

Ro 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

When we become saved and God has resurrected our spiritual body then it becomes our desire to obey Him.
Because our physical body is still unsaved we will still sin. And so a war takes place, Paul talked of this.

Romans 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The bible gives every indication that this change is 100% Gods work.

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Because He has given us a new heart it becomes our desire to obey and follow His commandments.

Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The heart change must come first.

Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

One of Gods commandments is to believe, after He has changed our heart we keep the commandment to believe:

1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Believing is a result of the change.
Many men have an intellectual understanding of who Jesus is, and they think this is what it means to believe.
They know there is a hell, they know they deserve hell, they don’t want to go to hell, so they want to ‘join up’. But their hearts were never changed. They even feel they are working for Christ, you see all sorts of people claiming different truths but only one is true. As an example, Methodists have Lesbian Ministers, other churches teach only married and not divorced men can lead the congregation. Radically different, both the Lesbian and the married pastor will claim to be working for Christ, to be saving souls by casting the devil out of people.

Mt 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

People making a decision for Christ, only to find they were lost. He never knew them.
Quickly Matthew 25:41:

Mt 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Angels comes from the word ‘aggelos’. It does not necessarily mean heavenly angels. It can also refer to men.

Mt 11:10  For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger <aggelos> before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Lu 7:24  And when the messengers <aggelos> of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

It can mean a supernatural creature or it can mean a human.
This is a time to compare scripture with scripture.
Some like to claim no one goes to hell forever, but the bible says they do.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be  punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is judgment on man. To be separated forever from God. It is outer darkness because God will not be there and God is light.

Mt 22:13  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you continue with Matthew 25 you will see he is talking about men on earth not heavenly angels.

Mt 25:40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mt 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mt 25:43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mt 25:44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mt 25:45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mt 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

More???...Yep

Some selective salvationists say God "hates" all of the non-elect. Yet, when the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, the Bible said Jesus "loved" him. Also, remember L.C. that Jesus offered him a way to be saved, but he could not part with his riches.

It doesn’t say he turned his back on Jesus and it doesn’t say he could not part with his riches. Read this a little more carefully.

Mr 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mr 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

One of the reasons I decided to answer your post is because this very topic just came up on another forum I am involved in.
I don’t believe the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, I believe Jesus saved him. He was grieved because he had things he did not want to give up.
There are a lot of sins we can’t wait to get rid of. But there are others we want to hold on to. For instance:
Two people in love, unmarried and living together. One becomes saved the other does not. The one that is saved realizes they must leave the relationship. They still love the other person but even marriage is not a possibility because then they would be unequally yoked.
Don’t you agree that would be very grievous? This rich young ruler was not miserable in his world, he was very comfortable. He wasn’t hurting anyone with his lifestyle, to give it up would be grievous.
There are some very definite statements concerning Gods love.
While Billy Graham might say Jesus loves everyone, I have never been able to find scripture to support that.
My former pastor spent 6-8 sermons trying to prove it, I felt he was trying to force a square peg into a too small round hole with a sledge hammer.
He gives good sermons but in this case he only proved to me that there is no evidence.
The fact God hated Esau does not contradict the scripture.

Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

The bible says God hates all sinners.
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

For me the question is why did he love Jacob? Of the two Esau seemed to be the good son.
I think the answer is that when we become saved all of our sins are washed clean. God not only forgives our sins but he forgets them, and so He no longer sees us as sinners.
So in John when he mentions the one whom the Lord loved he is pointing to a special relationship not the same relationship everyone has.

John 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

John 21:20 ¶ Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

There are many verses that isolate those Jesus loved from the rest of mankind.

John 11:3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
John 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
John 11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
John 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
John 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher’s coat unto him, (for he was naked,)and did cast himself into the sea.

Even before the birth of Jesus

2Sa 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

We cannot become saved unless God chooses to love us.

1Jo 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

If we are not saved the love of the father is not in us.

1Jo 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

When we become saved we are changed and are seen as righteous in the eyes of God. He no longer sees or remembers our sins.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

He loves those that follow after righteousness, those that have been saved.

Pr 15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Do you think He could cast someone into the lake of fire for all eternity that He loved?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

One last verse to support the fact that God does not love every single person.
Many people are never chastised by God. If someone has been chastised they have been corrected, to change a behavior. Many have never been chastised, yet the bible says God chastises everyone He loves.

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

He loves his children.

To B Continued...

[I believe predestination is inconsistent with the Bible]

I believe predestination is inconsistent with the Bible

There are over a hundred verses that say salvation is offered to everyone. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Then why would God send strong delusion?

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The world represents the unsaved. It does not represent the entire population of the planet. It does not represent all of the unsaved. It represents those He has come to save.
Compare to:

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If He was the savior of the whole world you’d think He would pray for the world. He prays for those God has given him. A select group.
Just think about this for a minute.
How many times does a sin have to be paid for?
I am going to trust you understand only once.
To pay for our sins Jesus literally had to suffer the equivalency of an eternity in hell for every sin we have ever committed. He had to make the full payment.
He began this in the garden of Gethsemane.
He spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mt 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Count backward.
Day 3 - Sunday He rose from the grave.
Night 3 - Saturday night He was in the grave
Day 2 - Saturday He was in the grave.
Night 2 - Friday night in the grave.
Day 1 - Friday on the cross
Night 1 - Thursday night in the garden.

There are some key words to show He began the payment while in the Garden.

Lu 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

He was in agony - suffering.
A very strange statement - sweat as drops of blood.
Sweat points to His work.
His Blood washes us clean from our sins.

Re 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

God chose the words very deliberately.
If He paid for the sins of every single person on the planet then there are only two possibilities.
1. No one goes to hell. The sins of Judas - paid. The sins of Hitler - paid. The sins of Saddam’s sons - paid.
If they do go to hell then it is because of the second possibility.
2. Christ gets a refund on the immense suffering He endured. That is not possible.
The only possibility is He only made the payment for those that would become saved.
It could be He knew who would freely choose Him (your way), or it could be He knew who He would choose (my way). It is not possible that he paid for the sins of those that will be in hell.

The Bible says God desires the salvation of those who are perishing. For example, 2 Peter 3:9 says, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

The way you are trying to understand this contradicts scripture.
Not only John 17:9 as shown above but other verses also. Such as:

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Why hide it from them if he wants them to come to repentance?
God did not create man as a sinner, but Adam sinned so we all perish. God never wanted it, but He knew it would happen.
God also wants man to come to repentance, but no one will of their own power.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

We can’t blame God for the position we are in, but our position is hopeless, unless He intervenes and rescues (saves) us.

More to come....

Hi Bronzesnake,
I have thought about this, I don’t want to end this as long as there is an interest.
I will not join any new topics but I will continue this topic at least until work sends me out of town for a significant time.
My reply will also be very long.

This is going to be very long L.C.
and much of the following comes from different sources, including Dr. Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, and Michael Bronson.

I don’t know anything about Michael Bronson, but I am very familiar with Van Impe, and Lindsey. Both of these men interpret scripture out of their minds.
Mans mind is very creative and can come up with all sorts of things.
For example Lindsey found a word in Ezekiel 38 that he decided meant Russia. The word <ro’sh>.

Eze 38:2  Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief <ro’sh> prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

This word ‘ro’sh’ appears 598 times in the bible beginning with:

Ge 2:10  And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads <ro’sh>.

There is no way “ro’sh” means Russia, this kind of reckless teaching is indicative of the way Lindsey teaches, out of his creative mind instead of the bible.
I was watching Van Impe many years ago and he made all sorts of ridiculous statements that he couldn’t support with scripture such as the locusts of Revelation being Huey Helicopters. One claim he made I would like to address in detail.
He claimed that Satan calling down fire from heaven would be nuclear bombs. The bible doesn’t talk about Huey Helicopters and it doesn’t talk about nuclear bombs.

Re 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Because this prophecy is being fulfilled today and is one very important sign we are very close to the end I would like to explain this prophecy - with the bible, not by pulling things out of thin air with the mind.
It may seem to be convoluted reasoning to you but please spend a little time thinking about it.
When I read about wireless networking it seems pretty convoluted to me.
Fire from heaven refers to judgment.

2Ki 1:10  And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

It was suggested to Jesus that he call down fire from heaven.

Lu 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Jesus replied:

Lu 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

After Jesus left the garden of Gethsemane he was met by a group that came to take him just as they came to take Elijah in 2Kings. Jesus was indeed a man of God, by all rights he should have called down fire from heaven.
If he had he would not have finished paying for our sins. He began his work in the garden he finished it when he rose from the dead, I will cover this in detail later. A substitute for fire was used.

John 18:3  Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
John 18:4  Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
John 18:5  They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6  As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.  
 
The substitute for fire from heaven is to cause people to fall backward. Judas was there, Satan was there in Judas.

Lu 22:3  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

To fall backward is another sign of judgment.

Ge 49:16  Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Ge 49:17  Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Satan understood the substitute, he was not able to call literal fire down from heaven.

1Ki 18:23  Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
1Ki 18:24  And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

Baal could not bring down fire from heaven:

1Ki 18:26  And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
1Ki 18:29  And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

Today we have a phenomenon taking place in churches called “the slaying of the spirit” you have probably seen Benny Hinn do this on TV where people are caused to fall backward - the substitute for fire from heaven.
You may not agree with what I have said, but it is all from the bible.
Van Impe’s nuclear bombs answer for fire from heaven comes from the mind.
I have found that a great deal of the freewill salvation plan comes from the mind.
Many years ago an elderly man who had been a bible teacher for over 50 years showed me that truth comes by comparing scripture with scripture.

1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

We may not always understand what is in view but the scripture does not contradict. If we find ourselves or someone else saying, “I think this means...” when we are not using the bible to support the exact meaning, be wary, be doubtful and be suspicious.

Matthew 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

End of intro

[All]

The gospel offends and I expect people to be offended, like you have been with what I say. But I back up everything with scripture. I want to make sure you know it is not the creation of my mind.
A little over 10 years ago I was a freewill believer like you, fortunately God had humbled me earlier by showing me that something I absolutely positively knew was right was wrong. You see 15 years earlier I was positive that reincarnation was the truth. I wasted many years believing in that garbage. I was too proud to look at the other side.
So when I began to become aware of the teaching of election I was a little more willing to admit I could be wrong in freewill just as I was with reincarnation, I was receptive to learning truth.
I approach these debates with the possibility that election is wrong, when I give verses such as those in John 6 I look to see if you can address them properly, you haven’t. There is no debate.
You have my scenario a little off.
In my scenario I have committed crimes against the King.. I am in prison, and I am guilty. There is no way out. By all rights I should rot there.
All I can do is cry out for mercy. The King hears my cry and chooses to have mercy on me.
Another scenario, and a true story:
Most every year my employer deposits extra money in my bank account at Christmas for a bonus. It is just there I don’t actively accept it the money is a free gift.
Such is Gods gift.
Another scenario:
As soon as you walk in to the hospital you are told your identical twin brother has died. You have a heart attack and also die. His heart is put in you and you live, how can you take the heart out?

Eze 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
 

The verses I posted in regards to the word "whosoever" are easily discerned. The meaning can only be taken one way, or else the verses do not make sense.

That is your opinion, they do make sense, you just don’t see that yet.
I understand how you see it, I used to see it that way too.
That was not an insult to me, but convoluted? That was a weak insult.
You put words in my mouth, I did not say.

Here's the way you understand that verse

It doesn’t really hurt me, but you didn’t need to go there.

Now that you have been shown the correct meaning of the word "whosoever" you might be able to grasp a truth which has so far eluded you my friend.

Your definition has not eluded me at all, I used to agree with it. I was blind but now I see.

 

God does draw us to Him - however, we decide whether we accept His free gift or not.

That contradicts scripture:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2Th 2:13 ¶  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do look forward to engaging in discussion with you in the near future John.

God Bless you my friend.

Bronzesnake.

I hope you don’t misunderstand me, I have very much enjoyed my discussions with you.
What I have called insults I consider very minor and not really a distraction.
It was the policy makers and enforcers of policy that were so bothered by the insults and debate that they have chosen to sanitize the forum.
I point out insults to show that it was not something limited to Catholic debates.
There are many forums out there that are open to all, I am 52 years old, I am not a baby, I don’t need a censor to protect me from what is said.
Since I believe everything is in Gods hands I have no fear that someone would be lead astray by a fast talking Catholic.
Because I believe it is God that gives us the eyes to see and the ears to hear I have no problem with leaving Heidi’s remarks about God the father and Jesus the son available for all to see. In fact if there are others that are struggling with the question I think you and I and others did an excellent job of explaining her error.
I am not leaving this forum because of anything you have said or done.
I happen to enjoy and learn from debate.
After debating with Michael I realized my understanding of a verse of scripture was wrong, he showed me my error --- he was in error also, but now I have a greater understanding.
Ollie did an excellent job of presenting an alternate viewpoint to another verse, I don’t necessarily agree with his interpretation but it was a valid point to make.
There are many other examples I could give.
Some people may need to have a censor to protect them. I need a little more honesty.
I am going to miss many people here, and many people have been booted off that I will miss.
Maybe I will see you somewhere else.
I usually pick names that reflect where I live.
Eugene, Oregon on the Left Coast of the USA. In the Willamette valley. I have Wood Ducks in my back yard. Etc.
I pretty much always let people know my name is John.

Ps 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

Ro 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Ex 28:3  And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

Ac 9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Ac 10:41  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Ro 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Ro 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Ro 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ro 9:14 ¶  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ro 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Ro 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ro 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

1Jo 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ga 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God Bless,
John

[not]

This is my last post. At least that is my intent.

  L.C.

 

Your insults, false witness, and accusations, don’t bother me. I do feel sad for those that feel they are accomplishing something with such petty words.
I care very much for each and every person I meet, and I do pray for all, including you.
I am struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not, if you do respond, and I do not, please don’t think I have anything against you.
My displeasure is with the forum not the people in the forum.
May God give you wisdom.

 Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am insulting you John.

It is not the disagreeing.
You put words in my mouth that I did not say.
You twisted my words.
There is especially no need for statements such as:

You are in a severe minority on this forum with your convoluted reasoning my friend.

That is not debate and that is not constructive.
If my reasoning is convoluted then so are those men I mentioned and so are the founders of the Southern Baptists, such as James P. Boyce: http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/toc.html
Or James Montgomery Boice former senior minister at Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia: http://www.tenth.org/boiceupdate.html and http://www.reformedreader.org/t.u.l.i.p.htm
What is the purpose of those kinds of comments, other than to try to insult?
Don’t jump to any conclusions here, I am not hurt, I read such comments with a certain sad humor. Sadness that you feel you need to use them. Humor that you think it accomplishes anything.
I have been married and divorced twice from the same woman, I have heard insults.
 

Why are you "struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not" That's foolish my friend. This is a forum where people debate biblical doctrine. You didn't expect everyone to agree with you all the time did you? if there was no difference of opinion there would be no debate would there? How can we expect to learn anything if we all agree with each other all the time?

I thought and expected that debate is what would take place on this forum.
What has taken place is similar to ethnic cleansing.
Catholic doctrine is closer to your beliefs than mine, so what I am saying is not a result of debates against me.
Post after post is being sanitized, as any reference to Catholic is being removed. In the process many excellent posts showing the errors of the Catholic faith are also being removed. Posts that are faithful to the gospel and of benefit to anyone searching for truth -- removed.
Many people spent many hours in research and typing.
I am a lyxdesic hunt and peck typist who’s fingers often miss the target. Do you know how frustrating it is to have to retype because I missed shift and hit caps lock. i DIDN’T INTEND TO SHOUT SO i RETYPE.
A lot of hard work callously thrown away.
The name of this forum is christiansunite.
A more proper definition is:
Christians, as we define them, unite. If you don’t fit our definition then you are not a Christian and not invited to share the basis your faith. Even though most of the world considers you Christian, we do not, so get out of town.
It is an adversarial position, inviting problems.
I expect the members of the forum to make foolish remarks like, “you’re lost...or you are unsaved” people say foolish things.
However I hold those responsible for administrating the forum to a higher standard.
When the moderator tells someone who has openly said they have accepted Jesus into their heart, that they are lost it goes against my grain.

Heidi,

Heidi, you are lost. Many here will help you and pray for you.

Love,
Tom

Only God knows the heart.

Mt 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.

It is especially interesting since Heidi stated Jesus was her Lord and saviour, isn’t that the freewill requirement? There is no doubt that she did not have a full understanding of the gospel, but that comes in God’s time.

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Part 2

L.C.
Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and saviour? Or are you hoping He has chosen you?

The answer to both questions is, YES!
The question is have YOU been born again?
Why do you reject John 6?
Why do you reject so much of the bible? The ENTIRE BIBLE preaches election.

Ro 8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

1Pe 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Mans pride leads Him to think he is in control, we’re control freaks. Picture the guy that is lost and refuses to ask directions, “gotta do it myself.”
We have a need to be in control of our salvation not really surrendering everything to God. Not accepting Gods authority over our life.
 

This discussion is over for me L.C. You are in a severe minority on this forum with your convoluted reasoning my friend.

Yes, and Spurgeon also had convoluted reasoning. As did Knox, Newton, and so many others.
Jesus and His followers have always been a minority.
If you want to be part of a majority you might want to consider Hinduism, if you want to be in the majority of those claiming Christ you might want to consider becoming a Catholic.
I could answer all your whosoever verses but you have chosen to turn your ear away from truth to cling to your works.
If He wanted ALL to be saved why did Jesus speak in parables?

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

In your mind - why did God create all the unsaved people?
If - as you mistakenly believe, God has pre-selected His team - then why bother creating all the others who will simply be fried, regardless of whether they accept Jesus or not?

Your God kills babies, and the mentally retarded. Your God enjoys watching people suffer, who haven't got any chance at salvation whatsoever.

That is not Jesus Christ my friend - no matter how you slice it.

Bronzesnake.

We are all created unsaved, we are all born spiritually dead. You don’t understand how bad it is.

Ro 3:9  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Ro 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 3:13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Ro 3:14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Ro 3:15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Ro 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Ro 3:17  And the way of peace have they not known:
Ro 3:18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.


There is none that seeketh after God, therefore the whosoever that would choose by freewill is none.
To choose God would be good verse 12 there is none that doeth good.
My God judges mankind justly, there is salvation for babies and the mentally retarded WITH my gospel NOT yours.
Your gospel would leave them out so you INVENTED an age of accountability, adding it to the bible.
But your age of accountability can’t address those that have lived on this earth for a period of time and are now living brain damaged.
You have no salvation for those that did not accept Jesus before Alzheimers, brain injuries, or other illnesses took their intellectual ability to choose.  
Yours is the one that condemns.
You make salvation a requirement of man to choose, so you would have God condemning men for not choosing Him when it would have been impossible to do so.
If they have never heard of Him they can’t choose Him.

Ro 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

We are the dry bones:

Eze 37:1 ¶  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2  And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3  And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4  Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7  So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Your insults, false witness, and accusations, don’t bother me. I do feel sad for those that feel they are accomplishing something with such petty words.
I care very much for each and every person I meet, and I do pray for all, including you.
I am struggling with a decision whether I continue on this forum or not, if you do respond, and I do not, please don’t think I have anything against you.
My displeasure is with the forum not the people in the forum.
May God give you wisdom.

John

[No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him]

Bronzesnake
This is probably my last or close to my last post on this forum.
You say you will no longer carry on with me, so be it. I feel I must reply since you have perverted my words and made false statements concerning what I have said.
It is going to take more than one post I could have made it much longer, there is a lot of material that supports my stand in the OT and NT.

L.C.

I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.

 No, it doesn't...it implies it.

It only implies it in your mind, I also used to be of the same mind.
Why not let God define what He means by whosoever.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Whosoever is those God has drawn. There is no mention of freewill here. It is all Gods work.

I know full well where the word comes from, and just because you pointed it out doesn't mean you understand it's meaning - as a matter of fact - it's quite clear that you do not understand it's meaning. I will show you the proper meaning of 'pas' at the end of this post my friend.
 Your explanation of "whosoever" is just ridiculous...

You have twisted my words, I don’t think you did it on purpose.
Forgive me for my failure to explain clearly.  I hope by the end of this letter I can clarify. At no time did I intend to claim whosoever means, “those I have chosen”, not sure how you got there but I will accept fault.

L.C. Quote...

“Whosoever believes”, the bible is crystal clear, it is His work that we believe. The whosoever are those he has chosen, and drawn to Him.

 Why use the word "whosoever" then? That word is seriously out of context in every verse which it appears with your incorrect interpretation of the word. Why even use that word at all? -  why not simply say "My chosen"

The definition of the word ‘pas’ that I gave in an earlier post will hopefully help clear this up:

One of the problems that you are having comes from a misunderstanding of the Greek word <pas>.
The translators recognized that the word ‘pas’ has many meanings, so it was translated in many ways.
all 748 times, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
John 3:16 -- whosoever <pas>
1 Timothy 2:4 -- all <pas> men
Etc.
If we look at other places where this word shows up we might begin to see other possibilities.

Matthew 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <pas> Jerusalem with him.

Was ALL of Jerusalem troubled?

Mark 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

ALL the land of Judaea, approx. 2,000,000 people. ALL baptized, Pharisees too? John was a very busy guy.

Not only does ‘pas’ have many translations but those translations have many meanings.
When you look at the two examples above you should hopefully see that the word ‘pas’ can refer to an exclusive group of people. There are other times when it is inclusive.
If all we had was, “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life,” we could agree that it was inclusive, meaning open to everyone. But the bible must be taken as a whole, not isolating scripture.
God shows us with John 6:44 that in this instance it is an exclusive word limited to those He has drawn.
Why ignore this scripture?
In John 6:37 God uses this word ‘pas’ to point out that it is referring to an exclusive group.

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The word pas can also mean “all manner of” as in:

Matthew 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of <pas> sickness and all manner of <pas>  disease among the people.

You can choose to follow your English dictionary definition if you wish, I am going to trust in Gods definition, as it is found in the bible.

1Th 2:12  That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Has He called you?

If that's true, then how do you explain the following verse...

 Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 Here's the way you understand that verse...

Those who I have chosen, shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

That is not my understanding at all, you are putting words in my mouth, or keyboard.
Why the attacks? Why the false witness?

Mr 10:19  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

It is not very becoming. And it is not necessary.

[WHOSOEVER]

L.C.

 

Can a baby do it?
Man has an intellect varying in ability from a baby to the Einstein’s of the world.
If you do something it is a work.

 That's a bit disingenuous L.C.
Yes, it is a "work" If that was your only assertion, then, that would be fine - I would agree. However, you go much farther than this L.C. You assert that we have no FREE WILL to chose Jesus as our saviour, in spite of the many verses which clearly state Jesus telling us that WHOSOEVER believes in Me, shall be saved.

I have covered WHOSOEVER a couple of times, it comes from the Greek word ‘pas’. Whosoever does not mean freewill.


 

John 6:27.  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28.  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29.  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 In your mind, this choice, or "free will" is a sinful "work" in the same manner as those who do not believe in Jesus - and who believe that - as long as "I'm a good person, who does good things, then God will accept me" That's not Biblical my friend.

Bronzesnake.

As the verse says IT IS GODS WORK THAT YOU BELIEVE.
I wish I could address this some more but I have to head out of town for a few days.
There is still John 6 to deal with.

John

[the bible says]

L.C.

Believing that, choosing to accept Jesus is a "work" is, in my, and many other Christians opinion - ridiculous.

Hey, whatever floats your boat.

Bronzesnake.

Can a baby do it?
Man has an intellect varying in ability from a baby to the Einstein’s of the world.
If you do something it is a work.
Does accepting Jesus require your effort?
Yes there are many Christians that believe as you do, and there are many that believe as I do.
There are also many that believe in reincarnation.
And if the number of Christians believing one way or another is important to you we are both out numbered by the Catholics of the world.

From Merriam-Webster Online, http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=work&x=18&y=19


WORK:
 
1 : activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a : sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result

More importantly the bible says it is Gods WORK that you believe.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

The bible says it is God that adds to the church:

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The bible says NO ONE will come to God unless HE draws them:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

And the bible says that EVERYONE He draws WILL come to Him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Of course those that believe their salvation is based on their work of accepting Jesus do not believe they have done a work.
A ridiculous position to take.