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283092 Posts in 27505 Topics by 3790 Members
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1  Theology / General Theology / Re: Non Christians Serving and... on: February 11, 2008, 12:59:57 AM
Thank you all for additional input. 

Quote from: BEP
Let's say that the local abortion clinic wants to foot the entire bill for rebuilding the church. Let's make the example worse and say that they want permanent recognition IN or ON the building for their gift. Should the church take this gift?

BEP, with regard to the example that would fall into this discussion, but I think this might be where I'm confusing ppl is that I'm not talking about paying outsiders or anyone getting the glory - I'm talking about:

Should we as believers be calling in unbelievers for the giving of their time and labor?

Your church gets flooded by weather and damage is done to the carpets, floors, ceiling... I feel this is where the body of believers should 'seek' help from other believers - now, if a non-believer wants to assist and will be witnessed to I guess I don't have an issue with that.

Quote from: Pastor Roger
Another instance is the Church's youth group held a car wash where they accepted donations to help them pay for a youth trip to Mexico where they were going to aid a mission. I know that many of those getting their car wash were not Christians. I was well pleased to see the testimony given by the youth and the witnessing they did with a number of them. Invitations to the Church were given to everyone.

This is not the same as it the church providing a service for a fee to raise funds - this I don't see as unbiblical per se. (I could be wrong)

Quote from: Pastor Roger
I was thinking more along the lines of a hardware/lumber store that is owned by a non-christian yet has proven to be friendly toward the church, Christians and God's message that perhaps donated supplies or at least given a substantial reduction in costs.

Okay, and still I see a difference here because the hardware/lumber store is chosing to give to the church and obviously God has at least led this person to extend kindness.  So, is this where Mark 9:38-40 applies?

Maryjane - I agree.

Well, I think the big answer has been to pray about it and this has helped me sort out my feelings regarding the issue to some extent. 

2  Theology / General Theology / Re: Non Christians Serving and... on: February 10, 2008, 02:01:39 AM
Hi Beloved,

It is important that the Gospel be preached even to these. Should we turn them away or reject their help because they are not Christians? No, that is what it is saying in Mark 9:38-40.

1) Okay, so please bear with me as I can be slow at times.   So, you are saying that Mark 9:38-40 is the biblical basis to support the body of Christ soliciting help in either of the situations I presented in my OP (opening post)Huh??

2) I wasn't wanting to go into too much detail, but recently a local body did have damage due to the weather and accordingly help from other members of the Body were asked to assist.

 There was an additional request to forward the e-mail to ANYONE - your neighbor, friends, relatives ....  I knew the urgency of the need for assistance, but I honestly could not bring myself to forward the e-mail to ppl I knew that were either atheist or have for the most part rejected Christ (to my knowledge).  I have relatives that feel I should go to a family members birthday party rather than serve at my church so this is what trouble my heart and I wondered if I was lacking faith and trust or that this was not biblical.  I also felt uncomfortable questioning 'authority' although I know from my own experience and from hearing not all who are in 'authority' are good leaders or always correct.

I'm sure I've rattled on quite a bit, but I am still confused. Huh

Quote from: Pastor Roger
How many people are there that come to church every day there is a service and yet do not know the Lord as their Saviour? It is difficult for us to say this as only the Lord truly knows their hearts but I would venture that there are quite a few.
I agree, but I would at least venture to say if they are attending regularly the Holy Spirit is at work in them and they are seeking and God will draw near to them. 

Quote from: Pastor Roger
It is a travesty for us to pass up any opportunity to witness for the Lord. That not only includes the instances that you speak of but also in anyone that we may meet in any other circumstances.

Agreed.  Again, I felt uncertain to what God had to say about it so I wanted to find out since I myself was lacking that knowledge.

Thank you .
3  Theology / General Theology / Re: Non Christians Serving and... on: February 09, 2008, 03:19:27 PM
Hello Beloved,

Quote from: blackeyedpeas
I don't understand the purpose for this question, but the answers are throughout the entire Bible from cover to cover. The Biblical Principles you are asking about are the most basic foundations of Christianity.
Hello, Blackeyedpeas, the purpose was to gain understanding as these are situations I've encountered as happening and I truly was troubled by it, yet not 100% certain what the bible said of which I will clarify my position more below:

1 - If someone rejects JESUS CHRIST as LORD and SAVIOUR, they are going to hell for eternal punishment. If they spend 24/7 doing good works, it won't make any difference at all. No amount of good works will result in Salvation, so the good works are a moot issue for the lost. The best that a lost person could hope for in doing good works is recognition by mankind - not GOD.

I would agree and the purpose of my post was not about obtaining salvation through works, but rather why churches enlisting the aid of local businesses and/or even the unsaved and claiming victory in Christ if the unsaved come together to assist.   This troubles me for several reasons:

1.  If an unsaved person makes a gift of time, labor and or money at the request of 'a' church they 'may' be being deceived into thinking they are doing a good thing (especially if not witnessed to).

2.  Since I have seen this happening I was struggling with the maturity of leadership a at these churches and/or wondering if I was missing something in the word that would support this.

2 - If a CHRISTIAN does good works, it's only recognized by GOD as good works if those works are motivated by love alone. GOD rewards ONLY Christians for good works, and there are eternal rewards for good works if they meet GOD'S Standards. JESUS CHRIST is the only judge of good works done by Christians. As an example, if the good works are done as a duty, for personal gain, or for personal recognition, the good works are burned up. As an example, feeding the poor out of love alone is good works that will be recognized by GOD. If you add personal recognition to this Christian's good works, they are burned up, and the Christian already got all the recognition they are going to get from humans - NOT GOD.

But, how does Mark 9:38-40 fit in with this (if indeed it does)Huh?

Thank you.
4  Theology / General Theology / Non Christians Serving and... on: February 09, 2008, 03:27:47 AM
helping the body of Christ and the Kingdom of God.

Please be patient with me as I try to articulate what I'm seeking biblical guidance about.

I would like to know IF/WHERE the principal in the bible talks about non-Christians helping out the body or working for the Kingdom..
(please ask if you don't understand and please I ask that personal opinions remain just that - I want to truly know what the bible says as this has troubled me.

Here are some scenarios to set the stage:


a) A local Christian church (body) reaches out to the community in need at Christmas time.

b) The same Christian church (body) engages local businesses to assist in the outreach via accepting collections at their establishment or monetary donations.

    I can see the biblical principle in Scenario A but not B - am I incorrect?


a) A local Christian church (body) has had a devastation by fire, weather.... to the building where worship is held. The body of believersfrom that particular church join in financially, give of their time and pray. Other local body's may join in to help rebuild etc..

b) A local Christian church (body) has had a devastation by fire, weather.... to the building where worship is held. The body of believers from that particular church join in financially, give of their time and pray.
They request that both Christian and non-Christians alike come and assist in the clean up, rebuilding etc. (whether the non-Christians are witnessed to is not known and if they are does that make a difference?

    Again, I can see the biblical principal in Scenario A, but not B. I'm also seeing other issues arise (not too big for GOD).

So, can you truly help me with this one from a truly biblical perspective. If so, it's greatly appreciated.

Thank you and God Bless.
5  Welcome / Questions, help, suggestions, and bug reports / Private Messages from Admin on: January 21, 2008, 02:28:30 AM
Hi, I don't see how I can respond to a PM from an Admin - is this an option? Huh

Thank you.
6  Theology / Bible Prescription Shop / Complete in Christ on: January 08, 2008, 02:44:06 AM
I'm not good at expressing myself in writing, so here we go....

Please note while I have no problem w/corresponding scriptures I'm not looking just for doctrine, but life application, deeper understanding of what it means to be 'complete' in Christ.   

God is to be our All in All, first and foremost, yet I struggle with that - I am just not feeling the completeness.   

I typically view this as I won't feel lonely or even 'truly' need another person in my life.   Also, that I am perfectly content with my life in Christ that I won't depend on any human. 

I'm just getting some thoughts out here to try to express - any feedback possible? Smiley
7  Theology / Bible Prescription Shop / Re: Self-control on: January 08, 2008, 02:35:30 AM
Philippians 4:5 says, "Let your moderation be known unto all men.  The Lord is at hand."

Moderation in the Scripture means self-control or self-discipline.  Many problems in our society such as adultery, fornication, drug abuse, alcoholism, nicotine addiction, etc., are caused by a lack of self-control in the lives of individuals.  Galatians 5:23 says one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit in our lives is temperance or self-discipline.  If we have rule over our own spirits and lives, we will have the fruit of self-control in our lives.

 Cool Cool

I won't dispute the word of God which you have posted, yet I wonder if the issues you addressed such as adultery, fornication, drug abuse, addiction is a matter of self control alone?   Do you feel you could add to this in how one would apply that to their lives while facing such struggles.  I ask because I have some addictions and it's been very difficult for me.

8  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re: Light-bulb ban craze exceeds disposal plans on: January 06, 2008, 04:23:41 PM
Well in all fairness to the thread title... typical - especially during an election year that we put the cart before the horse.   Yes, the pros and cons of using CFL's should be made public knowlegdge prior to a sudden and rapid turnover.

As far as the mercury that has been an issue for ages w/flourescent bulbs.   I remember from my grade school days how that was a 'possible' danger.   

I have been using CFL's for many years now whereever possible as not all my appliances and fixed sockets allow for them.   

The bulbs themselves are expensive yet they have lasted incredibly long and there is a difference in the quality of light.     I have one still left in the package of which I purchased quite some time ago and I don't see handling instructions nor warnings per se on the packaging - it is mfd by GE.
9  Theology / Bible Study / Couple of Questions???? on: February 14, 2007, 02:08:31 PM
a.  What is the 5 fold ministry - I hear this reference occassionally and do not understand what it is?

2.  What is the definition of an apostle?  Do apostles still exists today?   What made one an apostle in the time of Jesus?

10  Prayer / General Discussion / Re: What to pray on: February 14, 2007, 02:01:05 PM
Rather than asking for a person to apologize
I'm not sure if we misunderstood each other - but I meant pray that they would come to acknowledge and take responsibility for their wrong - of course I know that means allowing God to work in them as He chooses and they can choose to heed or not to.

I think that it would be better to ask that the Lord open their eyes to His will and to soften their hearts toward all people.  A person whose heart is hardened and is not right with God will be blind to what they have done and will not have a desire to apologize to anyone.
   Thank you so much for this wisdom as I can see more and more that this is relatively true in this person - easy to find fault with others but lacking humility and responsibility to admint and make amends for the beam in their eye.

God Bless! 

11  Fellowship / You name it!! / Re: Coffee Time! on: February 14, 2007, 01:56:40 PM
Well, we were probably the most fortunate only got about 3 inches lots of wind though and cold - warm java is great today - (even if it did taste like hot water - lol).

Have a java warm day and keep those pots a brewing!   Remember if you are married - Hebrews - LOL   Wink
12  Prayer / General Discussion / What to pray on: February 06, 2007, 03:45:45 PM
I know that we are to pray according to God's will and we can find much of His will in His word.   I also know that we are called to forgive even if the other person after being approached still doesn't repent(or admit wrongdoing).  This is painful but it is what we are called to do.   

I have learned this the hard way by praying ernestly in the past that the person who offended me would say they were sorry and/or admit responsibility and it rarely happens.

So, my question would be that other than praying for this situation, my own spiritual awakening and theirs would it be futile to pray for a person to apologize - since it does rarely happen. 

13  Fellowship / You name it!! / Re: Coffee Time! on: January 28, 2007, 07:36:25 PM

Well, I thought I would stop by and drop off some fresh brewed coffee for all of you!   

God Bless!
14  Entertainment / Computer Hardware and Software / Re: Norton about to expire and I don't know what to do on: January 08, 2007, 05:40:02 PM
Yes!   I wanted to thank each of you - I love the Zone Alarm and the Avast and Firefox
Wow, my computer boots up so much quicker now.   

The only problem I'm having otherwise is my keyboard gets very sluggish and slows down and typing becomes difficult at times. 

Also, My Yahoo msgr logs out on me now - but otherwise I'm much happier!

15  Fellowship / You name it!! / Re: Coffee Time! on: January 08, 2007, 03:10:59 AM
Brother, yes I have beeen getting some sleep.  I had 2 come forwards, to accept Jesus today.  That makes it worth it for me.  If 2 or more would come forwards every service, I would be the happiest person in the world........... Cheesy

Hello everyone!  I've been quite busy and haven't even had the opportunity to stop by and say "Java".   

Praise God for the 2 new believers!   

Okay, I know this is not the real thing, but has anyone else seen the new Coffee gum put out by Wrigleys?   Hey, it's not too bad!  Not the REAL thing but it is certain different.

Well, gotta try  to get some shut eye - so I can wake up and smell the coffee! 

I'll try to remember to bring some donuts next time!

Hope all are well and God Bless!

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