Yeah, I gotta go with Bro. Jerry on this. That is my understanding as well. I think it is possible to commit a sin, repent, commit it again, repent and be in a vicious cycle. That is what I understand to be the sin that leads unto death, be it drugs, alcohol, pornography or some other sexual sin, lying, stealing, or murder. Even Paul addressed this issue, I believe in Romans 7 (I don't have my Sword with me right now). Hopefully, we can, at some point, grow to where we are totally leaning on Him, totally focused on Him, totally devoted to Him and no longer have need of repentance. I think that is where Bro. Jerry has found himself (Praise God Almighty for His faithfulness).

I think a believer (Christian) can have an area in his/her life that has not been relinquished totally to Christ for disposition and satan has a foothold. That person can be demonically oppressed (note: not "possessed") and he/she is ineffective in the service of His Kingdom. This is why we should allow ourselves to be held accountable to a brother/sister. This will provide a means of running off that ol' demon and hopefully result in spiritual growth.

I don't know what Bro. Jerry's testimony is in detail but I would imagine a sweet brother in Christ was there to help him along. One of God's gifts to us is each other.

There are many versions of the Bible and maybe some do not use "heathen" but another word that means the same but does not offend.

The thing is, "offense" is in the eye of the offended. Much like "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". And typically when someone is offended by Scripture, it is a result of one of two things...ignorance of the Word or lack of repentant heart.

When I go to church on Sunday mornings, I get a good dose of God's Word. Most of the time I "get my toes stepped on". It does not really offend me because I know that I am in need of change, growth. I don't want my "ears tickled". I want my "toes stepped on". I want to know God's truth and how it applies to my life. The result is a growing, joyous life.

But I know that there are many who don't like that. Does that mean that the truth should be compromised? "May it never be!" There are some who will never be reached because they want only what they want. We can never justify compromising God's Word in the name of not offending those people. The best thing to do at that point is to pray that the Holy Spirit would soften their heart, enabling them to receive truth in whatever words it may come.

Now if you are one on one with someone, I think it's OK to be "tactful" but still uncompromising. THAT can sometimes be difficult if not impossible. But that's a problem to be dealt with by the Holy Spirit, not us.

I believe the only reason the U.S. has not been taken out by God is the fact that the church still has a hold here. But dailey we see more and more bodies compromising God's Word. Female "pastors", practicing homosexual church officers, Bible-less sermons, denial of the inerrancy of the Word, denial of the deity of Jesus...the list is long and growing...are becoming rampant among churches. We are definitely headed in the direction of Sodom.

Heavenly Father, please forgive us and draw us back to the truth. We are desparate, hopeless without You, Lord. Keep us close. We need You. Help us to claim, as a nation, 2 Chronicles 7:14. Without You, we are lost and destitute. In Jesus precious name, Amen.

Thanks guys. I never read it like that before. Calls for some study on my part.

Yeah that statement has always bothered me, too and for the same reasons you mentioned.

Willychuck had mentioned that word ("guideline") first and I shied from it initially and then used it myself so I have to take at least partial blame. I agree with you, Roger and Jerry, the Bible is the final Word and is implicit and explicit leaving no question as to what we need to accomplish God's will. So allow me to say the choice of the word "guideline" was a poor choice.   

But I was getting at was that sometimes we have to go to different places in Scripture to find the whole truth. The best example I can think of is a pretty direct one. Scripture says we are to follow the law of the land since governments are instituted by God and leaders are sovereign choices of God Himself. But what if a national leader or governing body says that Christianity is not allowed  inside the borders of that nation. We then have to go to Acts where Paul reminds us that God's commandments supercede the laws of man when there is contradiction.

This is why it is so important to STUDY His Word, not just read it for the sake of something to read. While reading Scripture for the sake of reading is not a bad idea, there is so much more to gain by true STUDY. That way, when an issue comes up that requires more than one verse or chapter for direction in addressing that issue, we have knowledge of the Word as to how that issue should be addressed and stay in His will.

Finally, I believe that God's Word is complete and lacking in nothing that we need, no matter the circumstance in practical application. Of course, prayer and wise counsel are also extremely important. 
If Holy Scripture is a "guideline", it is a "guideline" to be adhered to without compromise or variance and right down to every "jot and tittle", to quote a Scriptural phrase. If we do this, we can stand blameless before our most Holy God.

Len,
Then we are speaking on the same page.  My whole point is that the speaking in tongues that is found in the Charismatic movement of today, and even of the first century, is unbiblical.  When the Bible speaks of speaking in tongues they are known languages.  Yes a miracle that one person may speak and people of many languages may understand.  But it is not the gibberish and confusion that you would find in the charasmatic churches today.

Paul speaks of that as confusion and God would not author confusion. 

Absolutely. No confusion at all in Scripture. Just our own feeble minds.

But help me if you will. Where in Scripture has just one person spoken and many heard, each in his own tongue? I can't seem to find that anywhere. I don't deny the possibility. I'm just looking for Scriptural confirmation.

[their own]

I never said that. They all heard in their own language.

Act 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?


Take note here that there were many that were listening at the same time and yet each one heard it in their own tongue.

I'm with you on this, Pastor Roger. My response and query was to Brother Jerry. But, there were many speaking, each one in a different tongue, making it possible for each one listening to hear the word in his own tongue.

It sounds to me like each tongue represented was addressed by someone who was speaking for the first time in that tongue.

[speak with other tongues]

Len


Were the believers speaking in tongues or were the nonbelievers hearing in tongues? If nonbelievers were hearing in tongues, then that means nonbelievers received a Spiritual gift...hearing in tongues. I really don't think it happened that way because Scripture says it happened another. (Call me silly.)

Take a read at Acts 10:44 "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word"
We see that the Holy Ghost came upon all who were there to hear the word of God preached by Peter.  It was not that the Spirit came upon Peter and he spoke in different languages.  It was that the Spirit came upon all who were there, and later in verse 46 mentions "For they heard them speak" thus the miracle is that they heard them speak in their own language.  Which if we then go back to Acts 2 we notice a couple of things.  It is specified that they heard them speak in their own language.  If the preachers were simply speaking in their own language and others were simply seeing thier lips move and it was coming out as normal it would not have been an amazing affect, no one would have noticed.  For example if you were to see a speaker and he was speaking in English and you saw his lips move to match his words you would think nothing of it.  But now if you saw that speaker speaking and heard it in English but yet his lips moved to words spoken in Russian it would be an amazing thing.

The miracle or sign that God was working was not an optical illusion of having a person or persons speaking and lipping different languages all at once...but that the speakers were speaking in their native tongues but yet everyone heard it in their own native tongue.

Acts 2:4. "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues , as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

Do you have a verse to share that says they heard in a tongue not their own?

Abba Father, we thank You for allowing us to come with boldness before Your throne of grace through the shed blood of our Savior and King, Jesus Christ. We thank You for availing Yourself to us, Your undeserving children.

Oh, Lord! Please hold Brother Bill close to your bosom. Hug him till he feels the pulse of Your loving heart. Reassure him that You are holding him close and that You care for him and his wife.

Draw his wife to Yourself, dear Jesus. Make her aware of Your desires in this marriage. Do not let satan have a foothold. Remove him from the presence of Bill and his wife. Scatter his evil minions, make them confused and unable to communicate.

Clear the way for a total, complete, and full reconciliation in this marriage. Draw them to each other just as is Your plan for husband and wife. Make them one and whole again. Give them a testimony as to Your grace, mercy, love, power, and sovereignty. Set the stage for a ministry that they might share the incredible work You do in their lives. Glorify Yourself in their lives, Abba Father.

Father, we give You all glory, honor, and praise and we pray all these things in the name of the precious Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Lord and our Savior.

I'm a Cowboys fan but I'd like to see the Colts go to the SB just because of our Brother Tony Dungy.

Maybe he had too much coffee 

Makes me wonder what was in his coffee.

[FOOL]

Kerry knew exactly what he was saying and how he meant it. He wasn't talking about President Bush. He was talking about our troops. His unsavory humor, his sarcasm, and his lack of education in public relations, tact, and scrupouls, made him turn his idiotic comment around to make it seem like he meant something else. He seems to think that he can fool an entire nation. Like the Bible says even a FOOL seems wise when he keeps his mouth closed. I wonder if Kerry even knows what a Bible looks like.

Absolutely, he knew. It was no botched joke. He said exactly what he meant. I'd like to hear how the joke was SUPPOSED to go. He's lying through his teeth now that he's been caught. Standard Kerry maneuvers.

Political apology. Means absolutely nothing. Besides, it took him 2 days to make THAT statement. For 2 days he refused to apologize to anyone. You can bet someone slapped him silly to get him to say he was sorry.

Then it was only to those "who were offended". A real apology would have been open-ended to the nation.

A true confession is one to God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, the church, the sinner's family, and the one sinned directly against.

Kerry made the statement to the world and should say to the world he was wrong. Otherwise, it's nothing more than lip service.

Thanks Tom

I'm sorry if I came accross as "I'm right and you're wrong".  I know there are many ways to handle situations in life.  You and Len are absolutely right about prayer.  Thanks     Maybe I should practice more prayer before I repsond.  Check my attitude.   

brother in Christ,
Bill 

For what it's worth, I was in no way offended. You spoke as someone who's been there, done that. And I treasure any shared experience from BIC's.

I've been in a situation like that twice and it is extremely difficult at best. The only peace I had was that which the good Lord provided. Both were very good friends. One marriage failed and the other is prospering to this day. The only seeming difference was that the reconciled marriage saw both spouses desiring to do what was right by God. In the other, only the husband seemed to want to seek His will.

Today, the reconciled family is growing strong in spirit and serving the Lord in several capacities. The other (rebellious) wife has remarried and their marriage is shaky. The husband who sought God's will has custody of their 3 girls, works in the youth ministry at our church, coaches 2 of his girls in soccer, and is growing spiritually. God is the critical component in all marriages...shaky or firm. And in ministering to these 2 men, I found myself praying almost constantly. That is where I seemed to find the most peace. It was like going through a dark, dank, creepy swamp riding on the back of Jesus. Fear was present but Jesus warded it off.

The thing I remember most was reading Scripture over and over making sure that I didn't misunderstand anything. It was a very scary, yet precious time.

Please forgive me if I repeate something that somebody has already said, but this subject has been on my heart for quite some time.

Joel Osteen's preaching is what initially brought me to God.  The problem is that I came to God for all of the wrong reasons.  Thankfully situations in my life at that time showed me I wasn't as 'righteous' as I once thought and that we are all sinners.

Instead of just saying it myself I want to quote Ray Comfort from "The Way of the Master" episode "Hell's Best Kept Secret."  He told a parable that really got my intention.

Lets say that life is a flight.  2 men are among many others on an airplane.  The first man is handed a parachute and told that it will improve his flight.  The second is handed a parachute and is told that the flight will eventually crash and it is the only thing that will save his life.  When the men put the parachutes on everyone begins to laugh at them as they are the only two wearing them.  The first man not only is deeply affected by the persecution, but he also notices that it is very uncomfortable when he sits back down.  He struggles for a while and finally he realizes that whoever gave him that parachute is a liar.  So he takes it off and throws it to the ground!  The second man is so greatful that the parachute will save his life he barely notices the persecution or the discomfort when he sits down.  In fact, one of the flight attendants spills coffee on his leg.  Instead of throwing the parachute to the ground, he clings to it tighter and looks FORWARD to the jump.

Basically, The Bible makes it clear that we will endure tests and persecution as Christians.  If we tell people "Jesus will give you everything you want and make you happy" then people will turn away from him as they endure tests and persecution.  However, if people realize the kind of sins they've committed against God and are told that Jesus Christ is their only means of salvation; they will cling to Him and look forward to their time with Him.

Friends, the Gospel message is simply this.  The Joy that Jesus Christ talks about comes in following Him.  Not because He will buy us a new car if we do.  The Joy that Jesus Christ talks about is the Joy of Salvation, not the Joy of having a nice big house.

Will God reward you, no doubt!  But what greater reward is there than the one that awaits us in Heaven?  What more can we ask for than the saving grace of Jesus Christ?

Many hear a good presentation of the Gospel in "seeker sensitive" churches.But most of the time, that's all they hear. Without discipleship, there is seldom growth.   Every new Christian should have the opportunity to know "what's next". And in that, they should understand that life is not a "bowl of cherries" for those who have received Christ. Quite to the contrary, we are told that we should expect persecution. We should have the attitude that Chinese Christians have...that of being thankful for persecution...because it brings about church growth, both in numbers and in spiritual development.

God does not expect us to accept Him and His Kingdom blindly. He has made is clear that there will good times and bad, happy times and sad, but we can also expect a joy that defies understanding and description when we place our unadulterated faith in Him.

Sounds like you have discovered that, Kenny. Press on in Him, Brother. Glory awaits.