King David wasn't raptured nor hinting towards it when he wrote :

Psa 91:7   A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; [but] it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8   Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Psa 91:9   Because thou hast made the LORD, [which is] my refuge, [even] the most High, thy habitation;

But enjoy your evening anyhow; with petrol on $74 , gold on $639 , and tactical nukes in Osama's hands bent on the destruction of "the great satan"
I hope you'll agree with me that we'll both will see Osama's speech on Al-Jazeera, the bombardments on Iran , its consequences and our reflections regarding this end-time-matter

Enjoyed talking to you, must go to sleep now [ cape town time here ]
2b

Hi DW and all,

Once again I hope you are right; but as i've proven the last 4 years on this forum; pretrib theology has so many holes and assumptions that shooting even more holes in it is no longer fun   Adding the single shred of 'evidence' in 1 Pet 5:13 only adds injury to insult.

It is sad that such theology ill-prepares a whole generation of Christians both in the EU and across the pond, thinking the'll be lifted into the heavens whilst nothing less then a post-apocalyptic countdown to the second coming is waiting and will remain for them as they sought to disobey:

Rev 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

People will be so disappointed when they will see the ruinious heaps of that what was once the centre of the world, whilsts grappling to get unconaminated water for them and their kin, as they see and hear the ongoing genocide upon the Jews in the Holy land where in those days the land will be full and trampled by heathens, spilled innocent blood.

Katherina proved to all that the USA is not prepared, as it was prophecied by Henry Gruver and Ezechiel 38.

And no, DW, this is not a personal attack, if it is anything it is a plea to come to terms with the reality that will haunt many in the coming days, months and years that are between now and the glorious Second Coming. See the term Babylon in a broader sense then 1st century Rome and a bunch of guys walking in a funny wardrobe.

These no longer rule the world; others do that ( for them )

Regards,
2b

I hope I, and thousands upon thousands are wrong and you and those who stand with you are right 

but the proof will be in the (radioactive ) pudding, and until then ;

1Cr 13:9   For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10   But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Cr 13:12      For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Ppl,

Maybe, maybe the following will not take place...   Maybe history will condemn Paul L. Williams' writings, prove Henry Gruver to be wrong, point out that the threats of Osama are hollow and in vain. Maybe the actions that are taken now by the US are futile; in that the enemy is powerless beyond its own borders, except for some carbom-like attacks. Maybe we all can go to sleep and wake up in the merry wonderland called pre-trib.

And maybe not...

Maybe the rapture you all are seeking is the total demise of the USA by thermo-nuclear eradication as it is written :
Jer 51:29   And the land shall tremble and sorrow: for every purpose of the LORD shall be performed against Babylon, to make the land of Babylon a desolation without an inhabitant.
Jer 51:30   The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in [their] holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwellingplaces; her bars are broken.

Jer 50:40   As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.
Jer 50:41   Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer 50:42   They shall hold the bow and the lance: they [are] cruel, and will not shew mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea, and they shall ride upon horses, [every one] put in array, like a man to the battle, against thee, O daughter of Babylon.
Jer 50:43   The king of Babylon hath heard the report of them, and his hands waxed feeble: anguish took hold of him, [and] pangs as of a woman in travail.

Why else would He cry out

Rev 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:7   How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

For the information that is avaliable to us does not describe the EU in nuclear peril...  yet describe the EU rising above every nation, with a currency that dictates the rest of the world, on the other hand the USA is in peril, and I can not recall any prophecic utterance that the EU mainland might be in danger ; yet Osama threathens the USA and its allies with a nuclear winter.

That winter (and not the rapture) will be soon upon us; you may ask why ? The answer is easy :

Dan 8:7   And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

But further on He writes :

Dan 12:12   Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13   But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

So, dear american friends, when the End has come for your part we here will continue until we will see that glorious day where the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen on the mount of Olives in all His beauty and splendour, and these days will only be a distant memory.

Regards,
2b

The wonders of wiki :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoot_%28missile%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval_torpedo
_______________________________________


Dw: it aint over 'til the fat lady sings !
Having said that I hope you're right (and /me proven wrong.....yes, my hope is that strong )

Israel’s non-policy on Iran

April 11, 2006, 10:45 PM (GMT+02:00)

DEBKAfile’s Analysts note: If Washington’s initial reaction to the Iranian disclosure that it had produced low grade enriched uranium was pallid, the Israeli response was non-existent. Not only did the Iranians make no secret of a “historic achievement” - in defiance of the United Nations and the West - but Mahmoud Ahmadinejad positively threw it in their faces.

A short while earlier, Ehud Olmert, acting prime minister, asked by Time magazine whether Israel would attack Iran’s nuclear facilities, said he did not think Israel should be at the forefront of this war. “I don’t know why people think this is first and foremost a war for Israel. It’s a problem for every civilized country. It is therefore incumbent on America and the Europeans to form a strategy and remove this danger.”

The only problem is that Iran’s president has never threatened to wipe America or Europe off the map – only Israel. But Israel’s new leaders, Olmert and foreign minister Tzipi Livni have developed a new catchall cure-all for all Israel’s predicaments from the Iranian nuclear threat to a Palestinian government ruled by a fundamentalist terrorist organization: Israel will follow the lead of “the international community.”

In other words, the incoming Israeli government is shrugging off issues affecting its national security, such as the daily Palestinian missile blitz from Gaza, the penetration of Iranian terror cells, Hizballah and al Qaeda to Palestinian areas – and now the stride made by the Islamic republic on the road to a nuclear bomb. For the first time in its history, Israel is placing its vital interests in the hands of outsiders.

Tuesday, April 11, the day the Iranian president delivered his nuclear bombshell, seven Hamas lawmakers traveled to Tehran to attend a conference on the future of Jerusalem – an occasion that is emblematic of a deadly chain that no one in Israeli government appears willing to perceive.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=2261

TwoBombs quote...
I agree with that much of your post my friend. However, that fact does not negate the facts which lead up to the attack against Iraq, or the possible coming attack on Iran. Bush is not just some lunatic warmonger, he had very, very good reasons to go into Iraq and the lefties arguments against that decision are weak and bi-partisan.

God sees the future, and told us about it, He did not give us a detailed analysis of events that led up-to the attack.

You didn't answer my question my friend.
What would you do about Iran?

John

Hi BZ,

hmmz...   i'm not God nor acting as one, for me it is nor hasn't been interesting to contemplate "what I would do with Iran"
It would be not even remotely fair not to answer such a personal question with a personal answer ehj 

Then, i'll tell you the whole truth, and i'll hope bare with me;

I come from a very high profile family; my father was a "rocketscientist" in that he made software for the defense & space industry.
My uncle is/has been the commander of the Dutch airforce, when there is no war to fight for the OTAN he's off learning others
about the art and history of war. My nephew is a high roller in the same Airforce. My other uncle works in an embassy.

I grew up in the 80's meaning in the cold war, and my dad always came with code and stuff to show what he was busy doing; actually I can't walk into a bookstore and read and see what my father help to build ( magazines about military HW ).  A lot of my friends in those days had dads that worked in the same palce, in similar conditions. It was/is secret enough that our phones were tapped, and we weren't allowed to come even remotely close to the Iron Curtain.

Fine; here came the 90's and my uncle was send to the Golan Heights and Syria. He came back as a changed man, and learned a very important lesson.
The clock of the people of the Middle East don't tick like ours; meaning that the very concepts of democracy, politics and overview is virtually non-existant. Instead they live in very lets say primitive, primeordeal state.

When Bush attacks countries in the Middle East he, or at least his military advisors know that it'll be another 200 years before the inhabitants of those countries will be able to grasp the concepts of the things that are being "injected" into that place. Until then it's total chaos; they KNOW that on beforehand.
Okay; so the truth of the matter is that those countries pose a threat to their local and international interests, and that's why those poor (civilian) xxxxxxxxx are being bombed to hell.

Surely, some rubbish propaganda will cross your mind; but you know, in the end it's about money and power. You've been on this planet long enough to know that is/will be/has been the function for war since Nimrod. Simple.

Now back to the question; knowing that you have been told from what social-cultural enviroment I've been raised in i can answer your question.
What would I do with Iran ? Answer: "Nothing!"
I know what your response would be, something in the way of supporting pre-emptive strikes, etc, etc.
You're entitled to your opinion. Just as I'm entitled with mine.

Regards,
Aryan aka 2B



(edited to remove foul language)

  Prophecy marked Iraq & Iran for invasion a long time ago.
The Bush administration is merely an instrument in doing so;

Dan 8:8   Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong,
the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward
the four winds of heaven.

The horn of the goat is broken after
Dan 8:7b he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him:
and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

him is Iraq/Iran ( Dan 8:20 ) the ram is the USA ( Dan 8:5 "touched not the ground" )

By prophecy these event were foreseen ; also the latter events

Dan 8:14   And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Read; Zec 14:2b half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Dan 8:8 wil be a reality by that time ; "the great horn was broken" meaning the USA
will no longer play the role it is now playing on the world scene.

I beleive that the Gog/Magog/Islam/EU force represents ;

Dan 8:8b and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9   And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land].

No USA in it; "the great horn was broken", and by whom I may ask ?
Eze 38:2[..]  Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal [..]
Eze 38:10   Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, [that] at the same
time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11   And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages;
I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls,
and having neither bars nor gates,

In the end the war on Terror will unleash the reaction wich will be the destruction of
large parts of the world. So bad will it be that Jesus says:
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Now that is where I believe its heading towards, and there are many, many people
that agree and stand with this.

I would like to finish of with this scripture :
Mat 26:24   The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by
whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Hi BEP & all

I'm not trying to form a cult, dogma or anything that might look like something mandatory in my usage of dates or theology.
I hope that people can understand the importance of the signs of the times, and i've taken the liberty to set certain gregorian landmarks in the process.

I believe that the sign of the solar eclipse of last march is the warning sign and the start of the 70th week. I strongly believe that once the Middle East conflict really starts not only 2/3 of the Jewish People will be in harms way; the whole world for that matter as Russia and China get the bright idea to form this alliance with Muslim states and surprise attack the USA and invade Israel & parts of Europe.

Rapture would be midweek, Rosh Hashana 2009, a sabbath Jubilee. ( more info an my site )

Regards,
2B

Dan 8:7     And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
__________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

Countdown to U.S.-Iran War Has Begun: Reports


http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?article_class=3&no=284740&rel_no=1

Countdown to U.S.-Iran War Has Begun: Reports
Presence of U.S. bombers in England seen as advance signals

it seems the Bush administration is on the verge of making the same mistake yet again. This time the mistake could be made in Iran, as it has been reported by The New Yorker magazine in its April 17 issue that the Bush administration is planning a massive bombing campaign against Iran, including use of bunker-buster nuclear bombs used to destroy key Iranian suspected nuclear weapons facilities.

The article by investigative journalist Seymour Hersh said Bush and others in the White House have come to view Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a potential Adolf Hitler. A senior unnamed Pentagon adviser was quoted as saying, "this White House believes that the only way to solve the problem is to change the power structure in Iran, and that means war," Hersh writes.

One former defense official said the military planning was premised on a belief that, "a sustained bombing campaign in Iran will humiliate the religious leadership and lead the public to rise up and overthrow the government," The New Yorker reported.

In recent weeks, the president has quietly initiated a series of talks on plans for Iran with a few key senators and members of the House of Representatives, including at least one Democrat, the report said. One of the options under consideration involves the possible use of a bunker-buster tactical nuclear weapon, such as the B61-11, to insure the destruction of Iran's main centrifuge plant at Natanz, Hersh writes.



__________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________

http://www.brookings.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/lasg.htm
B61-11 Concerns and Background
Summary

The United States is now fielding a new tactical and strategic nuclear military capability that has already been used to threaten a non-nuclear country. This new capability was certified without nuclear testing, using an existing surrogate testing facility with capabilities much less than those under construction and planned. The weapon was developed and deployed in secret, without public and congressional debate, contrary to domestic and international assurances that no new nuclear weapons were being developed. Other new or "modified" nuclear weapons, earth-penetrating and otherwise, are planned.

Concerns

    * The B61-11's unique earth-penetrating characteristics, not to mention its wide range of yields, allow it to threaten otherwise indestructible targets from the air and are its raison d'etre. The new weapon is uniquely useful from a military perspective?and hence provocative from an arms control and nonproliferation perspective.
    * A central and expressed purpose of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) has always been to arrest the further evolution of the world's nuclear arsenals. This modified weapon? certified without nuclear testing and deployed after signing the CTBT?undercuts that treaty and could provide political cover to countries which have their own unsatisfied nuclear ambitions.
    * Earth-penetrating weapons, deployed by the Clinton adminstration in the post-Cold-War era, were rejected for deployment by Presidents Carter, Reagan, and Bush. What is the new reason to deploy these weapons? What are the new targets? What is known about the B61-11 strongly suggests that its rushed development has been motivated by a desire to target one or more non-nuclear-weapon states.

British military chiefs believe a US-led strike against Iran is inevitable - the Sunday Telegraph of London

April 2, 2006, 6:32 AM (GMT+02:00)

The paper reports the prospect will be aired at a secret high-level UK defense ministry meeting Monday.

DEBKAfile’s military sources report: British generals will examine Iran’s successful test of a Fajr-3 multiple warhead missile that can reach Israel, that was carried out undetected by US or Israel radar Friday, March 31. It was launched on the first day of a large-scale Iranian exercise in the Persian Gulf and Sea of Oman.

Those sources add that the Israeli Arrow anti-missile system has no answer for multiple warhead ballistic missiles.

The US hopes for a multinational military operation to destroy Iran’s ability to develop a nuclear bomb - if Tehran fail to comply with the UN security council demand to freeze uranium enrichment. But British defense chiefs believe that failing international support, the Bush administration would go it alone or with Israel’s assistance.

DEBKAfile adds: Last month, former Israel chief of staff Moshe Yaalon estimated that a strike of this kind would be phased, suggesting that each phase would be undertaken by a different armed force.

In Blackburn, northwest England, Saturday, US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice said all negotiating options including the use of force remained open for resolving the Iran crisis. Last month, foreign secretary Jack Straw took the opposite stance saying a military attack was inconceivable.

According to the Sunday Telegraph, British military chiefs believe an attack would be limited to a series of air strikes against nuclear plants rather than a land assault - tactical Tomahawk cruise missiles fired from US navy ships and submarines in the Gulf, followed by B2 stealth bombers equipped with 8 4,500lb enhanced BLU-28 satellite-guided bunker-busting bombs flying from Diego Garcia, the RAF base in Gloucestershire in the UK and Whiteman USAF base in Missouri.

At least eight nuclear sites are known within Iran but there are many more secret ones.

The London paper reports Washington fears an Iranian nuclear weapon could be used against Israel or US forces in the region as well as destabilizing the Middle East with Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia opting for nuclear weapons programs.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=2203

Zep 2:4 For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation:
they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be
rooted up.
__________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________

DEBKAfile Exclusive: Palestinians are manufacturing new multiple-rocket launchers with Palestinian Authority funding

March 30, 2006, 10:14 AM (GMT+02:00)

The broad program involving all the armed Palestinian organizations is close to producing a facsimile of the Russian-made Grad, renamed Quds-3, supplied by Iran, which can simultaneously fire 10 rockets from a truck to a distance of 18-30 km. The system weighs 13 tons and enables a crew of 7-10 Palestinians firing from the Gaza Strip to hit not only the Israeli port of Ashkelon, but Ashdod to the north too, as well as the towns of Netivot and Ofakim to the east.

The system was proudly displayed to Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas when he visited the Gaza Strip last week.

DEBKAfile’s military sources: The new 122mm rocket, test-fired against Ashkelon on Israel’s election-day, Tuesday, March 28, weighs 66 kilos and carries 17 kilos of explosives. It was developed in Palestinian workshops in the Gaza Strip on instructions from Iranian instructors using the Russian-Made Grad and BM21 Katyusha as their model. Several dozen rockets are already in stock, substantially upgrading the Palestinian war arsenal with a heavy artillery system and extending its long-range assault capability. The product currently produce is wire-operated. The crew pulls back some 60 meters from the launcher and releases the rockets by pulling the wire.

A ten-rocket volley has a far better chance of hitting an Israeli target than the hit-or-miss, primitive Qassam missiles fired daily from the Gaza Strip.

Our military experts point out that, as the Americans discovered in Iraq, sophisticated weaponry, including drones and electronic surveillance, offers no solution to countering roadside bombs and rockets fired on the ground. The Palestinians have concluded that, even if the Israeli air force knocks out some of their Quds-3 rocket systems, they will still be left with enough launchers to cause heavy Israeli casualties and damage in the towns within range of Gaza.


http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=2188

I simply hope and pray that all Christians seek to do GOD'S Will until our last moment in this short life.

That is exactly where the pain is: most (if not all but a small remnant) christians and jews alike have become deaf to the gospel, blind to the truth.

Can you guys even imagine to vote for a party ( let's say the democrats ) that wants to give away chicago to canada, texas to mexico, and actually get a majority on this ??

The effect for every vision is at hand, ppl...   and they don't know it !

2b

Hi,

Having waited soooo long, and studied very hard on the topic of the second coming I believe the sign of the eclipse today is there because today Israel voted itself into utter annialation of wich only the Lord Himself can rescue them out.

I 'calculated' that we're now in a period of 10 days running up to the greatest escalation of all times; starting with the prelude to the invasion of Iran, a worldwide economic collapse, further moving along the lines of an Islamic/Russian retaliation on both the US and Israel. This all culminating into the Second Coming of Christ Jesus.

Greetings from the South,
2b

Zec 14:2   For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.






Zec 14:12   And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.