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1  Theology / General Theology / Re:Jesus and his Word are the Answer on: June 04, 2005, 12:16:02 AM
A friend once said this to me when God sent him in after me, because I was caught deep in deception - now I am also contending for the faith once given to the saints, just as I have been taught and called to do:

"I am not here to slander anyone.  I am the watchman on the wall.  If I see what appears to be an enemy and feel that I know the intent ... and do nothing ... then the blood is on my hands ... I have too much heart for that and love people too much to allow that to happen.  I may take criticism, but so did the One that I serve under ... the Mighty Lion of Judah.  Do not believe anything I say.  Prove all things to yourself.  Faith is built upon sound belief through Scriptural knowledge.  His Word is like pure silver forged in the fire seven times, and it does not come back void."

Compare the book to the Word of God and see for youself.

2  Theology / General Theology / Re:Jesus and his Word are the Answer on: June 03, 2005, 09:08:39 PM
Rick Warren also uses the Message Bible as a Scriptural reference - here is a brief look at the Message Bible as posted on another forum [with permission from the poster]:

Quote
What are some of the new age terms mentioned in the Message Bible?

Matthew 6:10

LITV - Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as it is in Heaven, also on the earth.

MESSAGE - Set the world right; do what's best - AS ABOVE, S0 BELOW

2 Cor.5:14

LITV - For the love of Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if One died for all, then all died;

MESSAGE - Christ's love has moved me to such extremes. His love has the first and last word in everything we do. Our firm decision is to work from this FOCUSED CENTER: One man died for everyone.

1 Pet.1:17

LITV - And if you call on the Father, the One judging according to the work of each one without respect of faces pass the time of your sojourning in fear,

MESSAGE - Your life is a journey you must travel with a DEEP CONSCIOUSNESS of God.

Matt. 17:2

LITV - And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothing became white as the light.

MESSAGE - His appearance changed from the INSIDE OUT, right before their eyes

Luke 7:16

LITV - And fear took hold of all; and they glorified God, saying, A great prophet has risen up among us; and, God has visited His people.

MESSAGE - They all realized they were in a PLACE Of HOLY MYSTERY, that God was at work among them.

Matthew 5:44-45

LITV - but I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust.

MESSAGE - When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your TRUE SELVES, your God-created selves.

Luke 12:2

LITV - But there is nothing which has been completely concealed which will not be uncovered, nor hidden which will not be known.

MESSAGE - You can't keep your TRUE SELF hidden forever; before long you'll be exposed.

The message uses AS ABOVE SO BELOW. Let's look at some "mystical" groups who use this terminology:

MESSAGE - Set the world right; do what's best - AS ABOVE, S0 BELOW

www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/below_above.html

These are some of the many terms that are new age/occultic/psycho babble in origin. Do you think that God wants His Word mixed with the things of the world? This book and others, are the beginning of a scriptural path to the one world religion. If needed, I can show where many of the other terms used originated from as well. Believing that these terms could have been derived from the original Greek texts is the only stretch here.

I was also told that "as above, so below" was not an occultic term:

from a satanic site:

"The Black Altar of Hell resides in The Noctary Chambre, from which The Magic is cast. The Infernal Idol bears four arms - the top left arm points upwards in the Sign of The Horns, assuring Satan's Power and Dominion, and is significant of "As Above" . The top right arm is lowered with hand signifying both the inverse cross {thumb & index} and the other three fingers pointed downwards as a denial of the Trinity of blindlight, and is significant of "So Below" . The lower left hand holds The Black Candle of Lucifer's Infernal Blessings, and the lower right hand grasps the white candle of destruction. The Altar Goddess rests upon the lap of Baphomet in lascivious rapport, intoxicated by the Might of Lucifer's Phallic Lust. The Satanagram is set upon the face of the altar plain, with The Magical weapons positioned in their respective points outlining the proceedings of the Ritual. The Satanagrammaton is displayed decorating the tunic of The Sabbatic Goat, respresentative of The Devil's seal of fulfillment.The Luciferic Black Flame burns intensely from the mind of manifestation, upon a trapezoidal pillar. The Satanic Altar is the dark cosmic powersource by which The Magician works His will upon the universe. From The Black Heart, andfrom the almighty Will to Power. HAIL SATAN."

I was then told that Paul used terms that were familiar to the Greek stoicks to relate the Gospel message to them and that this was the same. My reply was:

One detail that you failed to mention. Those who penned the original texts in Greek were under the inspiration of God.They did not just decide that the world needed a "new" paraphrase to clear up misconceptions of the scriptures in a plain, terminology modified language.

In closing, here is another favorite new age term from the message:

MESSAGE - Your life is a journey you must travel with a DEEP CONSCIOUSNESS of God.

from a site that promotes shamans [spiritism]:

"The journey is then shared with the mentor following the drumming, who uses the symbols to initiate a CRP journey in the same fashion as he would dream images.It is important that the mentor realize that the images are formed, as are dream images and stories, by the deep conciousness patterns and dynamics that shape the mentored, both physically and mentally. In this way the completion of the drumming is just the first step in a CRP journey, just as the dream provides the opening or doorway for a dream journey. This too sets the CRP drummer apart from more traditional views which require the shaman or to give meaning or interpret the symbols or story encountered. Rather the mentor uses the imagery to explore the deep conciousness structures that gave rise to the symbols."  [end quote]


3  Theology / General Theology / Re:Jesus and his Word are the Answer on: June 03, 2005, 09:04:25 PM
I guess I am rather surprised at your response.  I had thought that anyone who comprises the Word of God would be anathama.

[quote:]

Involvement with the Catholic Church and more similarities

Since Warrens policy is to implement church growth without respect to biblical doctrine [28] , it is no wonder that Catholic Churches such as Saint Michael the Archangel Catholic Church in Cary, NC are now enthusiastically joining in the Warren church growth program. The Webpage for this Catholic Church states, Having finished the first 21 days of the book, our growing group decided to push on to the end (so if you've already read parts of the book and weren't able to join us in November, nows the time to hop aboard!) [29] Another example: In the Chicago area, more than 200 churches are participating in 40 Days of Purpose (some used it as a Lenten series). Among them is St. Walters Catholic Church in Roselle which had hoped 100 people would sign up for small home groups for the 40 Days of Purpose program studying Warrens book. Instead, 700 got involved. [30]

Warren quotes from Catholic mystic Brother Lawrence, endorsing Catholic contemplative prayer techniques, which he says are helpful ideas. Brother Lawrence was not only traditionally Roman Catholic but also disseminated teachings that have similarities with Hinduism in the Bhagavad-Gita , and with many New Age writers. Warren endorses him and goes on later to recommend breath prayers. He teaches,

Many Christians use Breath Prayers throughout their day. You choose a brief sentence, or a simple phrase that can be repeated to Jesus in one breath: You are with me. I receive your grace. Im depending on you. I want to know you. I belong to you. [31]

For centuries Catholic mystics have practiced breath prayers such as these. They are simply the Catholic form of old Greek mysticism and akin to the mantras of Hindus. In this same book, Warren cites approvingly the famous Catholic mystic Madame Guyon (p. 193). He approves also of St. John of the Cross (p. 108) and the Catholic priest mystic, psychologist and ecumenist Henri Nouwen (pp. 269- 270). He warmly agrees with Mother Teresa (pp. 125, 231). These misleading techniques are thus propagated and lead further into the whole mystic plague that presently is threatening believers. This plague is the imagination that there is a unity consciousness with God apart from the Person, unique life and sacrifice of Christ Jesus. [32] Warren presents a mystical agenda, which the world loves and accepts, but which is an abomination before the Lord God. [end quote]

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/rick_warren_purpose_driven_2.htm
4  Theology / General Theology / Re:Jesus and his Word are the Answer on: June 03, 2005, 01:52:59 AM
 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

on the floor - hehehehe  Wink
5  Theology / General Theology / Re:Jesus and his Word are the Answer on: June 03, 2005, 12:58:08 AM
I think the problem is that many Christians assume that when a "Christian" author publishes a book, it automatically is filled with Biblical truth.

The plan of the enemy - masquerading as an angel of light - is to trick or deceive people into another gospel.  Jesus said that many false teachers and prophets would deceive people and they would fall away from the faith.  He was talking to believers, not to unsaved people.

So I ask myself - how is he going to do this?   We are bright people [I hope Smiley] founded on God's Word and we are going to be deceived??? that sounds pretty awful.

But then I think about the years I was lost in deception and all the time reading God's Word and realize that we do not hold up these new books to the light of God's Word.  We accept these teacher's slant on things because it sounds right - there is an element of truth.  The greatest deception is leaving out parts of the Gospel and I think we assume we are to look for additions to it.

Perhaps red flags ought to go up when people across all denominational lines jump all over one book like Rick Warren's.  I am not sure where we get the idea that unity is all jumping on the same band wagon  Huh

I have been researching out this new "phenomena" of Rick Warren and there seems to be some major problems with his theology. Part of the problem is his use of 15 different translations.  It is admirable of him to be so diverse - but he inserts a specific version's wording to support his teachings and this twists the Gospel. That is only one issue.

I hope the links I am providing clears the air a little bit.  

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/rick_warren_purpose_driven.htm

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/rick_warren_purpose_driven_2.htm

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/smith-deceived_on_purpose.htm
 
http://www.sacredsandwich.com/purposelie.htm

http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/RickWarren.htm

shalom, nana
6  Theology / Debate / Re:Christ as a Woman, God as Female on: June 02, 2005, 05:03:17 PM
I think the contrivance of a female god has been around a very, very long time.  We are just seeing "fruit" from a corrupt tree in another form.

Actually the concept of a feminine god, stems from the heathen and pagan nations from almost the beginning of time, as we can trace the roots of such goddesses such as Diana far back into history - BC.

satan's greatest motive is defiling God in any way that He can,  and making Him feminine sort of "fits" his agenda.

God obviously refers to Himself as masculine throughout the Bible, so I think we are best to stick to that, with unequalled dillegence.

I think the modern goddess movement and wicca have done a lot to build up this fallacy of a feminine god and for some reason, I have this sneaking suspicion that it's a take off of kabbalah in [Jewish mysticism].  Although most Jews do not embrace it, the Chassidic or Chabad Jews do and it is quite prevalent in their teachings and beliefs.

kabbalah really "came together" back in about 1200 when a "rabbi" had a vision of an angel who gave him this new "revelation" [satan masquerading as an angel of light - seems to be a lot of it going around Smiley]. kabbalah's root/origin is probably in babylon and some of the returning Jews that were there in captivity brought it back with them to Israel.

Anyway, to be brief, cause you can just punch in kab on the net and find a 1000+ resources, I just want to reiterate something basic about it.  kab teaches that the Holy Spirit is feminine.  This is due to the rendering in Hebrew - Ruach Ha Kodesh which is considered a feminine noun.  

English does not have feminine, masculine or neuter nouns, but most foreign languages do.  This does not mean that the object is either male or female, it is a *grammatical* concept.  But in the interest of "greater revelation", we have  a religion [kabbalah] that calls the Spirit of God a female.  This sort of makes one gag when thinking about the Spirit of the Most High God overshadowing Mary  Lips Sealed

kabbalah has infiltrated most religions.  From my research over the last couple of years, I see it permeating all facets of religion, even Christianity [Bible codes/gematria for one].  That there is now a version of the Bible that makes God a she, is really no big surprise.  The NIV came out with a version the last two years that is gender inclusive.

see:
http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/nivi.asp

It's time for Christians to wake up and smell the "reality" coffee - seducing spirits abound - HELLO?Huh??  Cool

7  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:The Ark of the Covenant on: June 02, 2005, 03:59:40 PM
I think this is one "mystery" that's been solved  Grin

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
8  Theology / Bible Study / Re:"He descends to hell" on: June 01, 2005, 06:03:59 PM
There are four words in the Scriptures which are applied to "hell" as we usually define it:  hell, sheol, hades, and gehenna.  If you do a word study, there are some differences that can be identified.  Genhenna would be the fire and brimstone concept or what we call "hell" today.

However; "hell" in reference to Jesus death does not mean He went to the place of damnation and fire.  The word, "hell"/sheol/hades,  used in the verses quoted - in the Hebrew and the Greek refer to grave or place of the dead.

As I asked in my other post - if Jesus went to "hell" or Gehenna, what part of Him would that be?  He had commended His Spirit to His Father.  It was His body that lay in the grave.

Where does it say in the Word that He descended into hell when He died?

The only verse I can find is this one:

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

But that is not referring to "hell" as in Gehenna, but His descent as God manifest in the flesh. [see Phil 2 & 1 Tim 3:16]

Also, I think it's important to note that in Col 2, Jesus completed the Sacrifice on the cross, there was no reason for Him to go to the place of damnation.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in the deviations and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the deviations,
14 blotting out the handwriting in the ordinances against us, which was contrary to us, even He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross;
15 having stripped the rulers and the authorities, He made a show of them in public, triumphing over them in it.

9  Theology / Bible Study / Re:"He descends to hell" on: June 01, 2005, 04:43:58 PM
Let me ask you this.  When Jesus was on the cross, He commended or gave His Spirit to His Father.  What part of Jesus would have descended into hell?

My second question would be - what is meant by the word "hell" in the Bible that refers to Jesus going to hell?

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

My third question is - when did Jesus say He would go to hell after His death?
10  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Speaking in Tounges? on: May 17, 2005, 08:50:42 PM
blue lake wrote:
nana,
The link that you gave does not give a statement of their faith. Do you know who they are?
The tongues spoken today are glossolia.
I have never heard of anyone speaking a real language. The term 'prayer language' isn't found in scripture. At least I don't think they use that term. Do you know?

nana:
If you scroll down on the home page, after the list of articles and see that she has given her statement of faith by subject and Biblical text for support.  Also, at the end of every article, as well as at the bottom of her home page is a link to click on for the salvation message, which is also her statement of faith.  I have also read her responses on some forums where she explains that her statements of faith can be found within the articles as she defends her position with Scripture, not supposition.

You are also correct, that today's "tongues" are glossolia, not the tongues that were given at Pentecost.  This is where the error lies.  Tongues was given for proclamation of the Gospel, not a personal prayer language.  This concept is not found within the NT.

When Paul stated that he spoke in tongues more than any others, was because he was appointed by God to bring the gospel to the gentiles or the nations.  That being the case, he would not know the language and by the gift of the Holy Spirit was given the ability to speak a language he did not know.

This would fall in line with the edification references particularly in 1 Cor 14.  Speaking the mystery would be known to God, not to the person speaking, as they did not know the language.

"Praying in the Spirit" is not evidenced within the scriptures quoted in this thread to "prove" it.  That is inserted into the meaning of the text.  Again, when Paul said he prayed with his mind and with the Spirit - it was praying how we choose, and then allowing the Spirit to pray through us as He wills - not in an unknown tongue, but in our known language, as guided in our thoughts by the Holy Spirit.  He might also be referring to Romans 8:26 where he states that the Spirit groans in words that cannot be uttered - in an intercessive capacity.

In reference to someone hearing tongues today in their native language and it being the gospel message, is indeed a true gift of the Spirit.  However; I have also heard that some, while speaking in tongues were blaspheming God in a foreign language and it was interpreted as that, by someone who knew the language they were speaking.

The problem with tongues today, is that they were taught.  Not received as a gift.  This happened from the time they were brought to this country.  This is why I believe the seekgod articles are critical to understanding this phenomenon which has snowballed out of control.  She does  extensive documented research that covers all angles of this "spirit".

tongues link:  http://www.seekgod.ca/topicwaves.htm#tongues

seekgod home page: http://www.seekgod.ca/index.htm

I wondered if someone could give me scripture reference that there is a "baptism in the Holy Spirit" for believers.  The references in each Gospel did not state baptism "in" the Holy Spirit, but rather "with" the Holy Spirit.

thanx and shalom, nana
11  Theology / General Theology / Re:Why is divorce never allowed? on: May 12, 2005, 07:22:26 PM
Jesus also said:

Luke 18
28  And Peter said, Behold, we left all and followed You.
29  And He said to them, Truly I say to you, There is no one who has left house, or parents, or brothers, or wife, or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30  who shall not receive many times more in this time, and in the age that is coming, everlasting life.

Jesus never said "never" get divorced.  He was objecting to the way husbands were treating their wives, by divorcing them for their own lusts, and treating marriage so lightly.
12  Theology / General Theology / Re:Why is divorce never allowed? on: May 12, 2005, 07:13:46 PM
The Greek text uses Strong's #3429 in the Matt 5:32 text which is indeed moichao/adultery - I am not sure where you got your information.

Mat 5:32 But 1161 I 1473 say 3004 unto you 5213, That 3754 whosoever 3739 302 shall put away 630 his 846 wife 1135, saving 3924 for the cause 3056 of fornication 4202, causeth 4160 her 846 to commit adultery 3429 : and 2532 whosoever 3739 1437 shall marry 1060 her that is divorced 630 committeth adultery 3429 .

I am sorry that I have to disagree with your position.  God never  instructs nor does He ever command that people remain married when the spouse is abusive.  I am not sure where the idea comes from - but to tell a woman she has to stay in an abusive situation to show we don't give up because God does not give up, it the worst kind of spiritual abuse I know of.  That kind of situation, in essence, IS adultery.  A man who abuses His wife, has committed spiritual adultery and thereby has given the wife a completely Biblical reason to leave and divorce.  We are commanded to live in peace.
13  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do animals have a soul? on: May 07, 2005, 07:08:01 PM
Psa 74:19 O deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude [of the wicked]: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.
14  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Speaking in Tounges? on: May 07, 2005, 07:00:50 PM
The tongues that is present today within the christian community is not of God.  The reason tongues was given was for the proclamation of the Gospel by the disicples who did not know the language of the nation they would be sharing with.

There is no scriptural proof for a personal prayer language.  When one is a believer in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit indwells fully.  It is by God's Spirit that we are transformed and renewed by a refining process to do His will.  Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with this.  There is no power associated with tongues and this is not presented anywhere in Scripture.

Here is a link that gives the history of tongues in this country, where it originated from, and why it is not of God.

http://www.seekgod.ca/topicwaves.htm#tongues

imho, tongues is nothing more than a way for one to believe they are doing something to enhance their relationship with God.  It is an age old problem.  Rather than relying fully on God for His ability to grace us with insight and knowledge, man has fallen into pride and elevating his own "spirituality" to do something "for" God that He does not need and does not want.

shalom, nana
15  Theology / General Theology / Re:Fruits of the Holy Spirit on: May 06, 2005, 09:03:57 PM
I think you forgot two of them  Grin

Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light
9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 proving what is acceptable to the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them .

Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

shalom, nana
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