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May 29, 2023, 04:56:58 PM

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286474 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
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1  Theology / Debate / Re: Why dislike Mormons so much? on: May 25, 2007, 10:59:13 AM
Quote from: blackeyedpeas
I would greatly prefer that you be offended than LOST. There is nothing about Mormonism except being lostÖ

You offend me by your preconceive notion that I in any way condone Mormonism or adhere to its doctrines and therefore I am lost. I see that you are a moderator on this site, am I to conclude that from your unwarranted offensive remarks that this site condones religious bigotry and hatred?
2  Theology / Debate / Re: Why dislike Mormons so much? on: May 25, 2007, 10:57:44 AM
Quote from: Brother Jerry
I will admit that in my post I did nothing relating to the specifics that were posted.  However based on your post, the entire post, I still got the impression that although you did not believe personally what the Mormons believe that you were still defending their beliefs.

If that is the impression you got then it was a preconceived notice from the fact that I questioned the falsehoods put forth on this thread and therefore must be the enemy come to defend Mormonism. You couldnít have possibly understood my post and come to that conclusion especially after I said that I do not believe the Mormon Church is the Ďtrue churchí and that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God which is the very core of that religion. No, the reason you came to that conclusion is because I dare to question something posted as fact when it was a falsehood.
3  Theology / Debate / Re: Why dislike Mormons so much? on: May 25, 2007, 10:45:15 AM
Quote from: ibTina
Looks like to me here you have brought up some great stuff.

The problem being that his post was in response to mine but addresses nothing that I posted.
4  Theology / Debate / Re: Why dislike Mormons so much? on: May 25, 2007, 09:27:30 AM
Quote from: blackeyedpeas
That's obvious and already answered. You find nothing wrong with MormonismÖ

Thank you for confirming my suspicion that you did not in fact read my post but glanced through it and caught that I brought up points where incorrect statements were made about the Mormon teachings and incorrectly assumed I was defending Mormonism. No where in my post do I even slightly indicate that I believe there is nothing wrong with Mormonism.  Had you actually read my post in itís entirety you would see that it wasnít the point I was bringing up.

I am deeply concerned and offended by your false accusations.
5  Theology / Debate / Re: Why dislike Mormons so much? on: May 25, 2007, 08:01:44 AM
Quote from: Brother Jerry
And this is where I would have to say that a little further digging is required.

Quote from: Pastor Roger
The statements made in this thread are in fact a truth.

Quote from: blackeyedpeas
If you did such an investigation and arrived at these conclusions, you would arrive at the same conclusions about Islam and every other false religion. In fact, I could make up a religion right now, and you wouldn't find anything wrong with it.

It is apparent that none of you actually read my post but instead read part of it and decided I was defending the Mormon Church and needed to be corrected; I was not. I was pointing out the falsehoods presented by members of this board and none of you provided any evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: Pastor Roger
When reading such works as Articles of Faith, by James Talmage and The Mormon Doctrine, Journal of Discourses it becomes quite evident that they do not even follow the Book of Mormon.

Which is essentially what I said: ďAll of their teachings that distinguish them from other ĎChristianí churches do not come from the Book of Mormon at all but from revelation of their prophets.Ē

I have to ask you blackeyedpeas, just what in my post made you come to the conclusion you did that I wouldnít find anything wrong with a religion you made up?
6  Theology / Debate / Re: Why dislike Mormons so much? on: May 24, 2007, 04:22:57 PM
Quote from: blackeyedpeas
Please read this entire thread again because the absolute truth about Mormons is here.

I beg to differ.

Quote from: ravenloche
p.s.  Check out their teachings, although they (the Mormons)
say they believe in Jesus, they do not teach he is the son
of God, nor do they teach that he is the Messiah.

This is false. The Mormon Church does in fact teach that Jesus is the son of God and that he is the Messiah.

Quote from: musicllover
Joesph Smith is greater than JesusÖ
Jesus is a good teacher, but not as good as Joesph

This is not the teachings of their church.

Quote from: musicllover
Genelogy is very very important so that they can trace there blood line back to members of the bibles.

This not why they believe genealogy is important. They believe it is important because they believe in baptism of the dead, which is where you can be baptized in proxy for a person who passed away without being baptized.

Quote from: musicllover
Öand when Mormons family's have children they are providing a body for a spirit being from Heaven to come to earth to do good, so we have chosen our own destiny, being handi capped, rich, poor, depends on how low you choose to come to earth, as to have well you improve yourself thru a pyramid kind of faith.

Not sure where you are getting your information but this again is not even close to the truth of what the Mormon Church teaches.

The reason Mormons can answer the mainstream theologians questions debating their beliefs is because they debate false notions about what the Mormon Church teaches and not what they actual teach. I believe they do more harm than good and should get their facts straight before debating Mormons. If you want to know what they actually teach then visit their web site and see for yourself.

Having ďinvestigatedĒ their church and debating with Mormon theologians for several years I came to the conclusion that their church isnít the ďTrue ChurchĒ, Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God and the Book of Mormon was not a historical document written by many men but a document written by one man and borrowed heavily from the Bible. I read the Book of Mormon several times and discovered that the Book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible. All of their teachings that distinguish them from other ĎChristianí churches do not come from the Book of Mormon at all but from revelation of their prophets. Thatís my two cents worth.
7  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 09, 2003, 10:12:51 AM
Petro,
I canít just let this go. You made false accusations towards me that I need to address.

Quote
Petro said:
Now, you claim;
I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

You my friend,
are in denial,

It has occurred to me that the reason you think I am in denial and Ďbackpedalingí is because you do not understand what it was I clearly said. Read it again. I said I wasnít the one assuming it was you. I know the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; I am not assuming they are, because it clearly says so. It is you who assume they were not and offer only your opinion with no scriptural backup as evidence.

John 14
15   If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18   I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


I quoted the above scripture and here again you used personal attacks and lies to support your point of view by claiming I said we are under the law. I explained to you what my view on Jesusí words ĎIf ye love me, keep my commandments.í and it has nothing to do with keeping the old laws or a believer losing his salvation if he didnít keep them. And yet you ignore what I clearly said and put words in my mouth and then attack those words, which I never said. I posted this verse to indicate that the Bible clearly indicated that there was something required of us to do to obtain the promise of God and that is the promise of the Holy Spirit. I tied this verse in with receiving the Holy Spirit (John 7:39); which you yourself had indicated is the end result of being saved.

Quote
Topic: Eternal Security Post#75 by Petro
Every person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, will be raised at the last day, whether they want to or not, what is sad, is they do not have that assurance today. This is Good News of the Gospel.

But how does one get to the point that they receive the Holy Spirit in the first place? You suggest itís because God gives us the faith to believe first.

Quote
Topic: Error in Doctrine Post#25 by Petro
God gave you the Faith to believe, O Man. you were unable to believe or receive, much less understand.

But then you tell us:

Quote
Topic: Eternal Security Post#104 by Petro
Everyone who has come to faith in Jesus Christ, has, because they first repented of their sins.

How does one repent if they donít first believe? And how can they believe if they need the Holy Spirit to make their belief sufficient for salvation as you claim? And how do they receive the Holy Spirit if they donít first repent?

Quote
Topic: Error in Doctrine Post#17 by Petro
One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

Here again you say we must believe, but you have been arguing all along that there is nothing we can do and our belief isnít sufficient enough, that we need the Holy Spirit for our belief to be good enough. You are going in circles; Jesus was straightforward and told us that we are to open the door to our salvation.

John 10
6   This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7   Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8   All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9   I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Revelation 3
19   As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20   Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


And what do the scriptures teach us on how we open that door? Iíve shared these verses with you many times and there are many more that say the same thing.

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


And what is your response to all that I have been saying? You twist my words around and then attack me with things I never said. You use personal attacks, sarcasm and lies. You love trying to put labels on me and sorting me into a group and then attacking me on grounds Iím part of that group.

Your doctrine doesnít lead people to Christ, it leaves them standing at the door while Jesus knocks and they donít know they are to open the door because you told them that would be works and works is a dirty word to you. Jesus did everything for us and all we have to do is believe, repent and be baptized to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is the Doctrine of Christ that we need to follow and the foundation of my beliefs.
8  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 06, 2003, 05:21:47 PM
Petro,

You seem to think that personal attacks are strong debating tools, which they are not. It doesnít matter if I mistaken a post on another thread to have been on this thread or not. Each time it was you who I was replying and the message was pertinent to this thread as well. I have not changed my stand on anything I posted here. You simply donít understand what it is I have been saying because you donít read it through. You already made up your mind what my argument is without bothering to read it through.

The fact is that itís you I donít believe not Jesusí words. There hasnít been one verse you quoted that I didnít believe in. Itís your interpretation of the verses that I take objection to. Saying you know the real meaning of the verse and that I donít isnít a valid argument at all. Your sad attempts to explain yourself only proves to me that you are repeating what you have learned from someone elseís ideas and not your own.

You have been my biggest ally in debating on this forum. You attempt to win an argument by name-calling, sarcastic remarks and twisting my words around to suit yourself. How can someone claiming to be a Christian be so rude and hateful?

It may have escaped your attention but the title of this forum is Christians Unite. Passing judgment on people who donít share your views isnít in the spirit of this forum. The moderators obviously do not care or they would have said something by now. I would debate further with you if I thought you could refrain from personal attacks, sarcasms and passing judgment on those who donít share your views, however I doubt you are mature enough to do so.
9  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 05, 2003, 01:48:04 PM
(Part Two)

Quote
Petro said:
You been assuming all along that the partakers, in Hebrews 6:4, were believers sealed by the Holy Gohst, just like you assume, that when Jesus stated;  

"If ye love me, keep my commandments.",

means that if you don't, Jesus will cause the gift to be taken away from those to whom he has given it to, all because you assume this is speaking about the law of Commandments.

You are presumptous, and think to highly of yourself,

No, you are the presumptuous one. Here you attempt to twist my words again. I said nothing about the law of commandments. Jesus fulfilled the law; we are not under the law anymore. I posted this verse in defending my view that we have a choice to make. That was the whole point of my post, had nothing to do with whether it says you can lose your salvation by not keeping commandments. So what are you saying then? That someone who does not love God can find salvation without first repenting? Jesus was giving his followers clear commandments of what is required of them to be able to partake in the promise of the Holy Spirit that was to come. All the instructions Jesus gave were leading up to that point when His sacrifice would provide us a way back to God. A choice was given for those who would seek the promise of God.

I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

The way I see it, the two major problems we are having here is that this post started off as a debate about OSAS and then predestination crept into it. Now you are assuming where I am arguing OSAS that I am arguing predestination and vica versa. The other problem is your hateful comments.

You pretend to come to this forum to help people find the truth. Well, I came to find truth and all you have shown me is hatred and contempt.
10  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 05, 2003, 01:46:40 PM
Quote
Petro sarcastically remarks:
Hello in there..

Well now, I see we are getting some place, you are starting to expose yourself, now.  so you say, you believe this. And, that is absolutely correct!!, and then even add;  "This is exactly what you have been saying all along,"  Wheeeoow!!!

I say,  you haven't been saying this, all along, at all and you really don't believe this, at all; at least not from the standpoint of what you have said up to know.

Yes indeed we are getting someplace. The first sign that someone is presenting weak argument is when they twist the words of their opponents around to discredit them. I have not changed my view at all. Because you think I have then I take it you either havenít understood one word Iíve said or you have no viable rebuttal for me and have to resort to pettiness. I have been clearly stating all along that the individual has to do something in order for the promise of God to come to them.

You said ďOne should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spokenĒ and that is what I have been saying all along. There is something required of an individual to accept the free gift of God, he must believe the words of God and then do them.

I posted verses to support this and I have said it all along. Your attempt to twist my words will not change my earlier postings. Anyone can go back and see that I have not changed my stand. I donít know what else to say to get it through to you that I believe the verse below and others like it clearly show that we need to do something to receive the gift of the promise from God:

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


Quote
Petro said:
You don't believe Jesus at all, He said;  

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.


You have been arguing all along that, a person who has been given eternal life by Jesus can PERISH..  REMEEEEMBER..

Now you change your tune.....when a verse has illuminated the subject for you, and you claim that this is what you have believed all along. Sighhh...

I have not changed my tune at all. What I have said over and over again is that I believe the gates of hell cannot prevail against the promise of God. The promise is there on offer to all who accept it. Nobody, not even satan, can take that promise away. When does eternal life begin? At the end, which if we endure till that time we are able to receive when Jesus catches us all up into heaven on the Judgment Day. I also said that as freely as we receive freely we could reject. We can turn away from God but the promise is still there and will always be there but if you reject it then you are like the dog returning to itís own vomit, the pig being washed returning to wallow in the mud again. Show me how what I believe is at odds with John 10:28-30. It is only in your mind that what I believe is against the Word of God and you have not been able to show otherwise.

Quote
Petro said:
Your starting to really confuse me..now, and with John here's help, you've really gotten yourselves spinning around and so dizzy, to the point where you have come full circle, even agreeing with me, whom you argued with, and took exception that the word "partaker" was emphatically speaking of a saved, Spirit sealed, and filled individual..who when he sinned, fell away, and perished.

I am not dizzy at all. I stand fast to what I believe. You are simply twisting my words because you have no sound argument to defend your views. In fact you are very selective in what you wish to share with this board. I do not agree with you on who the partaker is, nor have I said such. The partaker of Christ is a Christian. You have provided nothing to show that this is not true. You argument is that if the partaker is a saved individual then that verse is at contention with John 10. What I am saying is the contention isnít with the verses at all but with your interpretation of them. You are unable to harmonize the scriptures without corrupting them to fit some manís interpretation of salvation. I made myself clear, itís you who are dizzy and trying to twist my words because the foundation you build your argument on is shaky.

Quote
Petro said:
You really need to learn how to study the scriptures, you are taking this verse isolating it, and then using it out of context, Phillip, and the eleven, although chosen by Christ were still in unbelief; (sure they believed somethings about Jesus, but their faith was not the faith necessary for producing salvation, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit) none of them believed HIS WORDS until after Jesus rose from the grave,  ....(Jhn 2:16-22)

The very passage makes it plain, Phillip hadn't yet believed Jesus to the saving of his soul. Since Jesus said he would pray for those who believe in verse 12, for another comforter.
It is evident, no one had believed to this point, since Jesus never prayed this prayer for these.

I have no idea what John 2:16-22 has to do with this discussion, so I am unable to comment on that.

I am not isolating the verse in John 14:15. The verse stands true and powerful on itís own. The old Ďusing it out of contextí argument eh? Then to prove your point you take the verses out of context and put the cart before the horse. It wasnít their belief in question at all. Nobody at that time could be saved through their belief in Christ because He had not yet fulfilled the law. The promise of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) was not yet given. Their belief was sufficient which is why they obeyed Jesus and waited for the promise of the Spirit in that upper room having already believed, repented and baptized as commanded.

John 14
15   If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Further you said that none of them believed His words and yet we read:

Matthew 16
13   When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14   And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15   He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16   And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17   And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18   And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19   And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20   Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.


If God revealed it to them then I guess their belief was sufficient, or do you believe it was only revealed to Peter?

Quote
What are you trying to prove by these verses??  I suppose you would teach, that water baptism is in view herein and it is what would bring on the indwelling of the Spirit, which obtains the gift and that they pricked their own hearts

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


Yes that is exactly what this verse is saying. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey the Word of God and Repent, are baptized as this verse clearly states. This isnít the only verse that tells us that we must be baptized and that the gift of the Holy Spirit will be given to those who obey Godís Words.

(Part one)
11  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 05, 2003, 10:32:20 AM
Thank you Petro, you have shown your true spirit.

I am preparing a rebuttal to your post; did I say I wasn't or that I wouldn't be posting anymore? What I have asked of you was a fair proposal. I am asking for your view of how one finds the true path to salvation.
12  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 05, 2003, 09:34:56 AM
Petro,

Okay, you are pretending to be a person with Christ-like attitudes. Prove it. You tell me what I need to do to be saved. Tell me the correct path to Christ. You said I know nothing of the scriptures, so share with me the truth.
13  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 04, 2003, 10:05:25 AM
Quote
Petro said:
One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

This is the "doctrine of Christ"

This is absolutely correct Petro. This is exactly what I have been saying to you in this and other threads. This is exactly what you have rejected and called me unlearned, the son of the devil and other things. You need to practice what you preach Petro.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Mark 12
29   And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30   And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31   And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
[/I]

Iíve been saying all along that the individual must make the decision to come to the Lord and you called me a follower of heretic doctrine. Now you are saying the exact same thing in that we ďmust believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.Ē.

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[/I]

And Petro answers, ďNothing, God has done it all, there is nothing you need to doĒ.

Hear you the Word of God, Petro.

38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
[/I]

God have given every man and woman the choice, just as He has always done from the beginning.

Quote
Petro said:
I share the word with you, that you might recover yourselves, from the great deceiver, whos, teachings you seem to listen and embrace,  more than the words of the Savior, and all while claiming to know Jesus.

I am absolutely offended by your self-righteous attitude and name calling Petro. I have shared with you verse after verse that show that we must make a choice and we still have a choice afterwards as well. The best you could do is wave your hand and dismiss the verses, as not meaning what they clearly say or the Christians the verses were referring to werenít Christians at all. You carefully select verses to debate and stay well clear of the ones you have no rebuttal for. The best you can do Petro is inject confusion into the Word of God to uphold a doctrine that the Bible does not teach.

I told you before and Iíll tell you again, I sit here with just a Bible, online Bible Word search and Strongís Concordance. No commentaries, no preacher, no pamphlets, no pews to fill, no coffers to fill. Just me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit. I confess with my lips that Jesus was sent by the Father in the flesh to take away the sins of ALL who believe on him.
14  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Error in Doctrine on: May 02, 2003, 12:16:57 PM
leqach {leh'-kakh}
1) learning, teaching, insight
a) instruction (obj)
b) teaching (thing taught)
1) teaching-power
2) persuasiveness

didache {did-akh-ay'}
1) teaching
a) that which is taught
b) doctrine, teaching, concerning something
2) the act of teaching, instruction
a) in religious assemblies of the Christians, to speak in the way of teaching, in distinction from other modes of speaking in public

The doctrine is the teachings of Christ, the commandment he gave that all who believe on him should do. The answer to these questions Ollie and Petro ask are in the very verses Ollie quoted from (2John 1). If you do not keep His commandments then you are without love and you are none of His.

What is the Doctrine of Christ?

Matthew 22
37   Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38   This is the first and great commandment.
39   And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

2 John 1
5   And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6   And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.






15  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Once Saved, Always Saved on: May 01, 2003, 05:07:22 PM
Quote
Ambassador4Christ said:

Once Saved, Always Saved

Is it possible to lose your salvation? This is a very important question that we must consider carefully. If it is possible to lose salvation, it is of tantamount importance that we understand just what we must do to stay saved. If it is not possible to lose it, it is our duty to point this out to those who say it is.

First we must understand the basis of our salvation. Is salvation based on what we do?

Most definitely, we must have faith. To have faith we must believe. Once we believe we must act on that belief so that the Holy Ghost can be given to us.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
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These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).

See above. And our obedience to His Word.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:9-10
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
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Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)

Ďonce we have trustedí means we had to do something, in this case, in your own words: Ďtrustedí. So are you now saying there is something we need to do to be saved?

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The argument that we must work to stay saved often stems from an unclear understanding of all we have been given in Christ.

True, but if we have no works then our faith is dead.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


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We are members of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22,23, 5:30)
Does Christ cut off parts of his body?

Romans 11
19   Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20   Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21   For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22   Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
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We are sealed with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13,14, 4:30)
Is anyone strong enough to break God's seal?

No of course not. Godís seal is our promise of salvation but itís still our choice whether we enter in or not.

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We are a purchased posession (1 Cor 6:20, 7:23; Eph 1:14)
Does God throw away that which he purchased with his own blood?

See above; Romans 11

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We are adopted sons of the Father (Rom 8:15-23; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5)
Does God disown his sons?

See above; Romans 11

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It can be easily seen that salvation cannot be lost since, from beginning to end, it is dependent on the work of Christ, not the works of men. Our works can't get us saved, and our works can't keep us saved.

But don't scriptures such as Heb 6:4-6, 10:26,27 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 teach that salvation can be lost if we don't continue in good works? Yes, they do! However, these scriptures are not written to the body of Christ in the dispensation of the grace of God. They are written to believers under the Jewish dispensation

These scriptures are written to Christian as we see in these verses below:

2 Peter 1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 3
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
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