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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
286776 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
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16  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 30, 2003, 02:51:15 PM
I have to ask this even though it may cause this thread to divert from the original topic but I need clarification. All the verses I come up with showing someone falling away is met with ‘they weren’t really saved’.  How and when is someone saved?
17  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 30, 2003, 02:41:07 PM
Good post Psalmistsinger, for the most part I wholeheartedly agree with you on the points you have made. I like to add; sin is born of unbelief. God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would surely die but the Devil told him he would not. It wasn’t that he ate the fruit that was the sin but that he didn’t believe God that to do so would mean death.  The practice of sacrifice for sin atonement was the act of giving up something to pay for your sins. Each person who wished to have their sins forgiven would have to actively give up an animal (if they had none they had to buy one). This they would do on a regular basis but it didn’t work as we see below.

Hebrews 10
1   For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2   For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3   But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[/i]

God’s plan was to have a sacrifice that would end the need to have anymore. The one sacrifice that would wash all our sins away from that point on. As in the first sacrifice, the person who wanted to have their sins forgiven had to participate in the sacrifice by giving something up. Jesus did the hard part, he gave himself up as our sacrifice but how are we able to take part in this sacrifice?

Romans 6
3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4   Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5   For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Colossians 2
11   In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12   Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13   And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[/i]

But what if we continue to sin?

Hebrews 10
26   For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 6
6   If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[/i]

We cannot sacrifice Jesus over and over again for our sins. His sacrifice was a one time only, good for all time sacrifice. So what happens if we sin again? We go to our advocate, Jesus, with a repented heart and ask forgiveness.

1 John 2
1   My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2   And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[/i]

However, many of you have suggested that if any man sins then he wasn’t saved in the beginning. So why are there so many letters to the churches of the New Testament exhorting them not to sin? These were letters to the Elect, the Believers. It seems pointless to write to them and warn them of the dangers of falling into sin again if, as believers, they were unable to sin. Perhaps you are saying you can be a believer but not be saved?

It seems to me the writers of the books and letters of the New Testament were warning us of the dangers of falling away for a reason. We are told that God is steadfast in his promises and we likewise should be steadfast in our faith. If there is no danger that we can throw away the promises that God gave us then why warn us of imaginary dangers?

Romans 11
21   For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22   Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23   And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24   For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

1 Corinthians 10
11   Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12   Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13   There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
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18  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 25, 2003, 09:37:19 AM
In the Old Testament and before Christ was crucified and risen to the Father, we see God giving the Holy Spirit to those he was using at the time to do whatever miraculous thing He was working for His people. The promise of the Holy Spirit wasn’t made until Jesus was crucified and ascended into Heaven.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Acts 2:16-17
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ephesians 1
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

earnest  = arrhabon

1) an earnest
a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid


Taken from root word arabown:
1)   pledge, security

The Holy Spirit being the proof of purchase, a down payment to secure the full purchase. This is the crux of the debate here. Can one lose their salvation or is it a done deal.



19  Theology / Apologetics / Re:'For by grace you have been saved... on: April 24, 2003, 04:05:28 PM
I’ve asked this on another thread but was unable to get a reply I could understand. How does the following verses fit in with the idea that because we are saved by grace we can not fall away from that grace?

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Matthew 10
21   And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22   And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 6
4   For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5   And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6   If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
20  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 23, 2003, 09:53:04 AM
Petro said:
Those spoken of in Heb 6:4-6, are unsaved.

They are like Judas Iscariot, or the Mohamads of the world, they came up to the tree of life but never partook of the fruit.

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end. The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they don’t hold steadfast in their faith.

Hebrews 3:13-14
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


Petro said:
While agreeing with you, that potentially this is true, we know (from scripture) that not all that endure to the end will be saved, and it is unbilical to make such a claim.

I’m not sure I see your point there. Do the scriptures tell us ‘that not all that endure to the end will be saved’ or is it umbilical to claim that not all that endure to the end will be saved. From the verses below I would think it is clear that the promise is if you endure till the end that you will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Petro, I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint. In all your arguments you were evasive and opinionated. You would pick out one verse I quoted to refute and ignore any others I provided. You dismiss the verses I provided as not meaning what they say by casual remarks and nothing in scripture to back up your claims. The verses you did use had nothing to do with the point you were trying to make. After reading your many post I still am confused as to what your doctrine is that you are trying to get me to see.


Petro said:
By the way, there are no "free agents" I don't know where this is taught in scripture, this is pipe dream, only deception and pride put this elusive desire in sinners who want to be their own self made person; man is either in bondage to sin, or a bond servant to Christ.

I didn’t say anything about ‘free agent’ being a biblical term. I was saying that I refuse to bond myself to man’s teaching of the Bible. When I look through the arguments here about defending one’s religion I see people quoting verses that they were taught without really knowing what it means or comparing it to other verses to see how it fits into the overall picture. OSAS doesn’t fit in with all the scripture. Just because you can quote a few verses that, on the face of it, seem to support your views doesn’t mean that to be so. I tried to carry an open minded, intelligent debate here but all I got was your nasty remark proclaiming me to be a sinner.
21  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 22, 2003, 02:00:21 PM
Pedro,

I suspect that the confusion is my use of the words ‘physical endurance’. I’m not talking about un-believers and believers alike lasting in the flesh till the end because they endured afflictions but rather the believer lasting in his faith till the end (his death). If you stand fast in your faith in Christ then you shall be saved but if you ‘fall away’ like the seeds in the parable and in Hebrews 6, then you will not be saved. If your love for Christ wax cold because iniquity abounds then you will not be saved

Perhaps the confusion may be that I don't understand your definition of being ‘saved’. When do you believe a person is saved?
22  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 22, 2003, 10:27:43 AM
Petro said:
“It makes no difference; what any man says;
Christians ought to listen to Jesus.”

I agree, which is why I asked how the ‘Parable of the Sower’ in Matthew 13 and this verse below, fits in with the OSAS idea.

Matthew 24:12-14
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


I can’t see your argument that the ‘endure to the end’ means something other than physically enduring till the end comes. As shown in these scriptrures:

Matthew 10:21-23
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2 Timothy 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 4:4-5
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Hebrews 6:4-15
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.


In the Greek hupomeno {hoop-om-en'-o}

1) to remain
2) to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
    a) to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ
    b) to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments

I guess from your reply there is some confusion as to what I am asking. I simply want to know how these scriptures line up with the idea of OSAS. I'm not asking for more scriptures but a clarification on the above scriptures in light of OSAS.


23  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Do calvinists know for sure they are saved? on: April 21, 2003, 05:30:38 PM
This brings to mind the advice Paul gives to the  Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 1:10-13
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

This is why I've become a 'free agent. I believe once you aligned yourself with some man’s teaching of the word you close yourself off to God’s teaching.
24  Theology / Completed and Favorite Threads / Re:Eternal Security. on: April 21, 2003, 05:07:23 PM
Hello All,

This is an interesting thread. I was wondering how the ‘The Parable of the Sower’ in Matthew 13 and this verse:

Matthew 24:12-14
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


And others like it fit in the OSAS scheme?
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