Hitch, seriously quit being a fault finder.  If you had intelligent responses based on biblical truth, and not scripture totally taken out of context, I would listen.  Just a bit of advice: Don't disagree with people just so it gives the impression of being more spiritual, I've seen it done alot, and it is fruitless.

Your advice rates right up there with your dreams.


Why not just answer my objections from Scripture? And keep your two-bit analyzations where they belong?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For those of you who do not believe the church will be raptured before the great tribulation, I have a question.

  Are you nervous? I think you should be. God's time piece isn't TIMEX but ISRAEL!

  Israel is all important. The peace they seek brings the end time.



LOL

Yeah thats why all those books about Israel ,1988 and the Rapture were  so accurate.

Hitch

could i pose a few questions???
#1--when has the "church" ever been referred to as a "HE"
as in rev.4.vs.1--ESpecially when it is quite clear the one being spoken to is "John"?? vs.2 qualifies "who" is being spoken to--"and immediately I {John} was in the Spirit" ---
perhaps a quick look at matt.24.vss.29.thru.31--would absolutely clarify "when" the rapture takes place???
IN vs.29--JESUS HIMSELF states "when" the rapture takes place--{immediately after the tribulation of those days}--
There is only "ONE" coming of JESUS,& that happens "after"
the trib.--which that tribulation isNOT the WRATH of GOD poured out on an unrepentant world----possibly someone could answer these apparant conflicts of scripture--with scripture if possible???thank you for listening---shadow2b--
Shadow2b,
I think you are on the right track. First is the tribulation by antichrist which will be shortened by the parousia (coming) of Jesus Christ. The rapture is the initial event of Christ's parousia. On the same day the wrath of God begins (Day of the Lord). There is only one parousia, as you said, but this coming is made up of a series of events, the rapture being the initial stage. His first coming was also a series of events that covered 33 years. Why should not His second coming involve a period of time made up of several events? I believe the rapture takes place after the opening og the 6th seal. Note the likeness of the two passages.

Rev 6:12  And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind.

Mat 24:29  But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus points out in Matthew that the gathering of the elect takes place at this time. Jesus points out in Revelation that before the 7th seal is opened there will be "a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation..."

Note that they came out of great tribulation. This coinsides with Matthew 24 where Jesus says that the great tribulation is shortened by the signs in the heavens and the gathering of the elect. They literally came out, they were raptured. After this the seventh seal is opened in which the seven trumpets, representing the wrath of God are blown.

So the order is persecution, cosmos disturbance, rapture, and wrath.
No one knows exactly when the sixth seal will be opened, but sometime after the Abomination of Desolation during antichrist's persecution will the blessed hope begin.

asaph

Adn how do you fit this in with John 6;39?

Hitch: even though it might be theologically not very sound, I am more happy with all of the World ruled by His power, then the search for the 0.001% remnant that is very capable to find Him by themselves, as they are called annd pulled by Him.

Maybe I saw too much fake converts, too much fake churches, too much fake power.

The Church Ages are in my view (almost) over, and it shows....  

7 years for the Jews, and kaboom, Him on the throne, the rest is not very important (in my point of view)

Well it is the ministries of the HS in history you are criticizing;


John 16:5-11
5   But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6   But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7   Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8   And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9   Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10   Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11   Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
(KJV)

And I m not the least bit surprised.

Hitch

Hitch, i appreciate your input, but I will spend my whole entire life hoping, and expecting His return,  My faith is in Jesus Himself, not what He does, or doesn't do.  We all ought to hope for His return, and honestly if you don't I would wonder about you.  I'm not saying this to be critical of you, but if it's not your greatest desire to be held in His arms, then that is something I would be concerned about if I was you.  

Actually I'd rather see someone  truely repent and convert.

H

Very soon to me, means in my life time.  I firmly believe this, first from what I read in His word, and second, from the visions, and dreams I have had.  I am 31 years old, and believe that I will be an old man when this happens, but I do believe that my feet will be walking this earth when our King comes.  This is of course a faith statement, and whether no one, or everyone shares this opinion, it is what I believe.  The bible say's that hoping for His return purifies us, and it is not only my hope, but my expectation that He will return soon.

Well if you like I'll be gald to go over Scriptural  reasons why disagree.

In the mean. I much appreciate your straightforward answer. Adn all I will add is a reminder of what a faith killer failed expectations can be.

Take care

Hitch

[but Hw will be back very soon.]

A dear friend had a similar experience with earthquakes...


but Hw will be back very soon.

Would you be kind enough to define 'very soon'. as used in the quote above?

Take care

Hitch

And you were doing so well...

Now, don't tell me that the comment about the Sunday being of Satanic origin upset you ?

 I mean after all...any student of scripture knows about Daniel 7:25...."THINK TO CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS"...as refering to an Anti-Christ(ian)  power that changed of the 7th day Sabbath to...Sunday.

That ranks right up there with KJV only , you have to speak in tongues to be saved, and snake handling...

And you were doing so well...

DD,

That law, wasn't given 'till 500 years after Abraham, where there is is no law there is no transgression. (Rom 4)

I ask again, what law of God, are you refering that Satan tried to overthrow??

Petro

You're kiddin me, right ?
 You just answered it....'where there is no law...there is no transgression'.
  If Satan was a liar from the begining....there had to be a law that said: "Thou shall not lie"
 No one can break a law, if there is no law (where there is no law...there is no transgression).

 I'm not going to say God had the 10 commandments in heaven......BUT, there had to be some form of law.
 God's very words are law, if that helps.

And since you brought up the subject of abraham.....look at Genesis 26:5....."BECAUSE ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE...MY COMMANDMENTS....MY LAWS"

 Where you got the idea that the commandments of God were started 5oo years after Abraham ....

Such reasoned thinking will not win many friends hereabouts.

Take care

Hitch

Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus ALL Israel will be saved....

Raphu,
In your view, does that mean that every Israelite that was ever born after the flesh (that is, physically descended from Abraham) will be saved?
By the way I do not adhere to Hitches escatological view of scriptures. I do not believe that all of Mathew 24 was fulfilled by 70 AD. I do see the Church as the kingdom of heaven today, but I also see Israel, after the flesh, coming into messiah during Daniels 70th week. I also see the Church entering into the 70th week and being taken out during antichrists persecution of Christians and Jews.

asaph

Amazing how many devoutly believe in God's prophetic abilities while they harbor disdain for His mathamatics and timeing.

And of course these are literalist to a man, so when God says  Seventy Weeks  by golly he means thoussands of years...

Doest the NT clearly teach that the parenthesis of history, the temporary seat of God's authoruty on earth was the old system of animal sacrfice? Which was .as Hebrews teaches, designed to be temporary? In contrast to the eternal New Covenant?

How does this compare with a brick and mortar temple when as Ralphu knows the real (permanent) temple is built from livlely stones, (eternally alive).

? What is the purpose of any supposed new temporal temple?

There is but one purpose. To fulfill the imagintive mind wanderings of generations of believers. But if you will litralize Ezekiel's temple you are obliged to literalize its purpose  . That purpose being the seat of 'sin offerings'. Nothing can righteously be added to the Cup.

Take care

Hitch

While I lack and feelings  regarding AMD I do speak from experience.

Why does it seeems the ones most 'homesick for Jesus' are the first ones to call the preacher for prayer when they get sick?

Have they not become 'one in Christ'?

You cant refer to 'Messianic Jews' as a distinct group and also support the unity of the faith. Iether we are made 'one the Spirit'  or  there are division along racial and ethnic lines.

H

Hmmmmm.....I can't, but the Bible can, or did you bother to read the scripture given.

Ok Surely Paul Pete or one or two other NT writers offer this same interrpretation.  I dont know where it is found.

However I can sho NT references nameing the church as the 'people of God, the Seed of Abe, the household of God, the holy nation etc.

[You can put up a point for my side. You got lost awful fast didn't you? Jesus is Calling John to Heaven in Chapter 4 and when we reach that point in time we'll be called to heaven also. John went to the Lords day in Spirit, we must wait for the actual day to go bodily.]

   You can put up a point for my side. You got lost awful fast didn't you? Jesus is Calling John to Heaven in Chapter 4 and when we reach that point in time we'll be called to heaven also. John went to the Lords day in Spirit, we must wait for the actual day to go bodily.

Well Jesus had a definate notion of when the 'day to go bodily.' would be. And in the space of one chapter he told us four times. All the while never giving any qualificatioon, no mention of any 'tribulation' period. Earlier you made great import of Jesus being the speaker. Jesus is the speaker here;


38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40   And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41   The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42   And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43   Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46   Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48   I am that bread of life.
49   Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50   This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51   I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52   The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(KJV)


I'll wager $100 you will not take your usual literalist position here even though the speaker is Christ and the terms are givien  without the slightest qualification. In fact this  single chapter contains more than half the useage of 'last day' in the entire canon.

Take care

Hitch