This bleepity-bleep-bleeping-bleep server. I had a long response typed in, hit submit, and it couldn’t access the server, so I lost it. BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I’m not typing it again. It was nearly 3 pages long.

SonofAslan,

I have the same problem, I have simply just resigned myself to typing my answers first on my word writing program and transferring it to thge post window, (what I have found out is four pages is the max, one can post, otherwise one can lose what he tried to post.

The MOST important thing I said, I believe, besides thanks for answering me here, is that you have a tendency to take one verse and elevate it to the status of a canon within Scripture. This is illegitimate. You have to read all Scripture together.

I have no idea what point you are tyrying to make, every verse is inspired, and a part of the cannon, and none contradict the teaching of the whole word.

You also misunderstand us if you think we elevate the physical over the spiritual.

No I don't, you do, this is evidenced by infant baptism, which your church practices and you believe in,  nowhere, in the scriptures will one find, any grounds for performing such a ceremony.  

They cannot be separated as you do. To do this falls into gnosticism, and turns ALL physical reality into something totally divorced from the spiritual reality. Thus you legitimize adultery as mere biological coupling with no spiritual content. You legitimize murder as mere disintegration of atomic compounds with no spiritual ramifications. The spiritual and material CANNOT be divorced either in morality or in the sacraments. You destroy both by your understanding.

I separate them for your benefit, that yuou might see, the physical is the shadow of the real object.  I have made this plane to you alteady, if you can't grasp this then, I can't help you.

You have also taken several Scripture out of context (most notably Matt 7:22ff -- which talks about works all over the place, and in fact, Christ says right before the verse you quoted that not those who say to Him “:Lord Lord” but those who “do the will of my Father” shall enter the kingdom. So whatever deeds they may have done, they were “practicing lawlessness (the basis Jesus gives for casting them out) and NOT doing the will of the Father. This passage doesn’t support your claim.)

I am afraid you are reading something else into these verses,.

Their own words, testify they thought the work they were doing, (cause they invoked His name),  were sufficient to enter the Kingdom, it is plain as daylight, they certainly thought had done the will of the Father.

In the begining I asked you,  "what is the work, one must do to enter the Kinghdom??"

You answered; believe, repent, and be baptized.

All these I thought we agreed were grasped by faith.

Now you claim, it is another work, together with these.

Also faith is OUR response. Your quote of Gal 3 says nothing to the contrary, and Eph cannot be used to support your claim that faith is a “gift from God”.

I can use the verses that speak plainly to me about what they teach, (so long they do not contradict the rest of the teaching of scripture) the fact you separate what the gift encompasses, by the use of semantics, and defining words to support your theory, your way, puts you at odds with the rest of scripture, concerning works. (Scripture teaches man is saved by Grace through Faith) , now you seem to be claiming Faith is a work, is this what you are now saying.

So, which is it, is faith the work?? or the others, you are starting to jump around, as if you are on a hot skillet..


Gal 3
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

These verses, certainly make the point, faith had not been grasped, this is why men perish, and the promise could not come, because of the lack of faith, and verse 23, says, that "faith which should afterwards be revealed",  I suppose you would teach that one day, you revealed  Jesus to yourself,  huh??

I don't know whether we are getting anywhere, but at least we are considering scripture.

Blessings,

Petro

[is not the result of our own cleverness, nor human understanding or wisdom, which is nothing other than foolishness]

SonofAslan,

To answer your question concerning how, we reconcile, the faith works scriptures, which seem to be a stumbling stone to many today, we say that ultimately, since we understand perfectly, that because of sin, we were numbered among the transgressors and condemned to an eternity in hell,

All, because of the sin of unbelief, and we confess today,  that our faith is not the result of our own  cleverness, nor human understanding or wisdom, which is nothing other than foolishness (the wisdom of this world), to believe that we believed by our own strength.

The Grace that brought us, to a saving faith in Christ Jesus, for sure we see as a gift given by God, (whether you accept this or not, matters littel to us) and that because of Gods infinite mercy, grace and sovereign will, having elected us, to hear and believe the Gospel of our Salvation, which is preached to every creature, as ordained by the Lord,

And were it not for His intervention, we would still remain in the sin of unbelief, as many do today.

The context of verses 31 thru 46 of Mat 25, is at period afte  the end of the Tribulation , when the King returns and is ruling from the throne, vs 32  And before him shall be gathered all nations:.............., precisely when this occurs, your guess is as good as mine..

my own undertsanding is imediately before his thousdand year reign on the earth, because of what Zecariah writes, at Chap 14.

This is made clear from, these verses;

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

that the time of the fulfillment  of these scriptures is at the end times, is apparent, since judgement is evidenced herein,  since, it is to occuring after  the King (Jesus)  returns to sit upon the throne of His glory, referring to the Messianic prophecy in the OT as spoken by Nathan the prophet to King David, and it is plain this occurs at the end the great tribulation, axactly when is not settled.

In that day, He (Jesus) will be King over all the earth. (Zec  14:9)

This whole chapter, begins with the coming day of the Lord, and reveals when that day begins, note the graphic description of the first six verses, and consider that they are the same words spoken in Mat 24, at verses; 7, 29, 42.

Zec 14:16, is the reality of the vision, Isaiah had,  at Chapter 6:1-5, of Jesus sitting on the throne, in the year King Uzziah died, compare verse 1 of Isaiah 6, to verse 5 of Zec 14.

Now, the nations, which are gathered at Mat 25:32, are the nations of the world, Zec speaks of these peoples of these nations at verses 2, 12 and 16.

So here  you have the setting for which Mat 25, is to be understood, it is during the times after the Great Tribulation known as  Jacobs Trouble upon the Nation of Israel,  which affects the entire world of nations.

But the focus is on the people of these nations, symbolized by the sheep and goats, then, the focus becomes,  what they did, or didn't do, during this time of trouble.

It is clear the sheep, were already sheep, and the goats already goats,  when they were divided, and clear they,  didn't become goats or sheep during this period of time because of what they did, since the Lord makes it plain (who His sheep are and what qualities define there nature at Jhn 10:14,26-27)  and  (the passage at Mat 7:21-27 speaks of at certain "day", since at these verses it is clear in Mat 25:32 , is "that day" spoken of at verse 22 , of  Mat 7 ),

Both places were prepared for, beforehand for both the sheep and the goats.

For the sheep, the kingdom was prepared  for them, "from the foundation of the world"; we read at

Eph 1:3-5;
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

For the goats, there place, was not prepared for them, specifically,  but has become their destiny, because of there works, this is to say, (what they did or didn't do),  depending on whether you accept Mat 7:21-27 or Mat 25:31- 40, to be connected,

At any rate, I had mentioned beforehand to you, that all will be judged (whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life) in the end according to their works, (Rev 20:11-15)

As stated, the works, at Mat 25 are not the rule which determine who is a goat and who were sheep.  What they did and didn't do, was elaborated on by Jesus at Mat 7:24-27.
 
But at these verse:
The sheep because of their nature did, what was right according to the King, as Jesus elaborates at Mat 25:35 through 40, and He counted it as thou it was done unto Him.

The goats, because of their nature, did not do, what was right according to the King, and it is for this reason they are sent into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now, here I have to admit, it appears, that had the goats done what the sheep had done they,  may have been able to be counted among the sheep; but this theory is rejected by scripture at verse 46, where the sheep are referred to as "righteous", this is the reason why they did what they did.  

They knew the King and,  they also knew that the King delighted, in mercy, grace, doing good, and scripture says;

Psa 37:21, "the righteous showeth mercy, and giveth."

Zec 7:9  " Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and show mercy and compassion's every man to his brother:

And Jesus said;  concerning His brothers, sisters, and mother;

Mat 12
50  ...........whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mat 5
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

This is how we understand Mat 25, the works the sheep did, was accepted by the King as though they did it unto Him; and who were His brethren referred to herein,  Jewish descendant, that yet were outside of the faith in (Jesus) the King , during the Tribulation they will bear the brunt of the Evil ones persecutions, but the sheep who symbolize the elected of God, will care for them, with acts of kindness, and mercy, and love, out of obedience for their King.

Yet they never counted their deeds, as though they were to be counted expecting a reward, this is why they asked the King;

Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  (Mat 25:37-39)
 

So that these works, do not contradict the scriptures that teach, man is not saved by good works (Eph 2:8-9), but by mercy, grace through faith.


I will address, James 2, in my next post.

Blessings,
Petro

[desire]

Petro,

Two things.

First, for clarification, since your response seem to have understood something from my quote that I did not intend, when I said the Holy Spirit is NOT given to all, i meant that He is not given to all people. I fully believe He is given to all Christians, although baptism isn't exactly the sacrament where this occurs. But I could be wrong about that. Just for clarification.

Second, to be perfectly honest, I think I would prefer you didn't respond to Matthew, James, etc. on the other thread. I would prefer you respond to them here. The reason being is that I want Ambassador to respond to them. As of right now, he is rambling on and on without dealing with the passages. I want him to deal with them there, if you don't mind.

I would love to see what you have to say on them here, though.

Thanks.

SonofAslan,

I fully believe He is given to all Christians, although baptism isn't exactly the sacrament where this occurs. But I could be wrong about that. Just for clarification.

I am glad you clarified this, if this is true (that you "fully believe He is given to all Christians"), this can change your understanding of this matter considerably, providing of course the Spirit is leading you.

As I said before, and it i needs to emphacised;  that,

Water baptism is the shadow of the reality of Baptism with the Holy Spirit, and of course while not separarting the two, it must be understood in their context.

Just as,

Physical circumcision of the flesh is the shadow of circumcision of the heart.

Both are a work of God, and not man, the observance of symbol simply speaks of the heart of the desire of doer of the shadow of the real thing to be obedient to God, and while this can be said to be a work, the doing of it, is not what produces the reality of it. Because it must be mixed with faith, and the faith must be focused on the proper object, not the work.

This is made clear in these verses;

Rom 2
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

If this is true, then water baptism, which a washing of the flesh,  also does not, (the shadow of the sprinkling spoken of in Eze 36:25-27) make a Jew, anyone who is baptized in water.

Cornelius, and his family possessed the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water, this is testified to in Acts 10:45 and 15:8 , by Peter at Jerusalem.

The Book of Titus makes this clearer:

Titus 3
5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What more can I say about this.

Now, Concerning Mathew 25, and James 2, I will post my answer to you for sure later today.

Blessings,
Petro

[spiritually discerned]

In this passage one must not ignore the context of the word, "work out" hear clearly means the solution of the problem that was vexing the Phillipians, that is to say, their contentions.

No it doesn't. Paul clearly says "work out YOUR SALVATION". He doesn't say, "Work out the solution to your problem."

(can you see, how it (FAITH) is given from heaven, to believe what one could never believe before, if, left to himself)

To you it doesn't....but unfortunately, scripture interprets itself, it doesn't needs mans help; this is written for your sake, so that Isaiah'a prophecy should be fulfilled.

This is where we're going to disagree. Faith is OUR response to God. It is not given to us from God. It is how we respond to His grace, which He gives us. Faith is ours. Do we respond with faith or with lack of faith? This part is up to us. Some may have MORE faith, which simply means that they turn to God more than others do, but it is still man's response.

As I stated previously, the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, because they are spiritually discerned, plainly reveals unless God gives man,faith to believe by revelation, he cannot believe in Jesus, to the saving of the Soul.

even unbelievers who claim to believe can be baptized in water, this is clear, form this verse at Mark, but it produces nothing.

Just as grace not responded to in faith produces nothing. This is not problematic, but it doesn't negate the fact that baptism in water responded to in faith is how God bestows His Holy Spirit upon man.

Heb 4
2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Well, it is obvious that those that do not respond to Christ by faith, possess some kind of faith, but it is not centered on Him and His finished Works, but it is, in their own works, not Gods, the object of their faith is misplaced. And therefore is worthless.

Your statement above, reflects this clearly, the Apostles never taught that salvation was given in water baptism, but, did teach that salvation was found in faith in Christ Jesus.(Acts4:12), Cornelius and his household were saved after the day of Pentecost, everyone who received the gift of the Holy Spirit did so when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, as had been prophecied by John (Jhn 1:33), only by claiming that they were saved in a different way from us, can you reconcile the scriptures.

Petro

PS I have not had a chance to work of my response concerning your question, for a simple answer..but will do so.


And yes, I will honor your request and post my answer on this page.

[natural man]

SonofAslan,

In cleaning up or modifying this response whicvh was Reply #17, I damamged it, and have to repost it here, sorry...

posted by SonofAslan as reply #12
Actually this word "this" has three distinct meanings and can be interpreted in three different different ways in this passage, one way is as you have stated,
 

Your comment confuses me, because the word here, "touto" only has one meaning, and that is as a demonstrative pronoun "this". Demonstartive pronouns can be used in many ways, but it is impossible that it refers to "faith" or "grace". So I don't know what other meanings you could be referencing.

So you're confusing me a bit here.

SonofAslan,

You are confused because you want this verse to mean something it does not. The fact is;

 Neither  grace, faith (to believe in Jesus)(Gal3:22-29), nor salvation is  of  "Yourself"; you think, "faith" just came one day from nowhere?, the word of God produces this type of faith in those whom God has chosen,

Note verse 23 at Gal 3, it is revealed, and unless it is revealed to those who come with their feeble faith, they will never see the truth of this matter.  Simply speaking they remaing unable to see the truth of the scriptures, though they make themselves students of the scriptures.

Grace, Faith, Salvation is a mystery of the Kingdom, and they (the mysteries) are revealed to the elect/chosen of God, and He choses them, they do not chose Him.  Consider this verse;

Luke 8
10 .........Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

All of the natural faith, any natural man can muster up, is insufficient to come to Christ, because it is plain, at 1 Cor 2:14, that the things of God are Spiritually Discerned", and the kind of faith required is "spiritual".

We understand the Word of God, because we possess not only His Spirit, but the Mind of Christ.  (1 Cor 2:15-16)    

Notice these verses follow; verse 14??

Answer to question 2. The Holy Spirit is not given to ALL, whether baptized or not. There can be exceptions, as I noted, e.g. the thief on the cross, but these are exactly that, i.e. exceptions.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

These two verses precede 1 Cor 2:14.

If you possess the Holy Spirit, and have been taught by the Holy Spirit, how is it you can contradict Him??

He says and teaches explicitly, that ALL who belong to Christ, presently possess Him, and He is the possesssion, which separates those who belong to Christ, from those who do not belong to Christ, since it is He,  that make the receiving of the "spiritual discernment of the things of God, possible..

I am afraid your own words give you away.

verses 14-17 above, are speaking of some other work, than that stated.

You misunderstand. You are getting caught up in the particularity of the form in which our works take. This is wrongheaded. There is no single particular form in which works manifest themselves that all must do to be saved. But there must be good works for us to be saved. Some may never have fed a homeless man in their lives, but have spent all their time visiting men in prisons. While others may never have visited a prison on their lives, but spend all their time feeding the hungry. The particular form of work isn't significant. These all fall under the general category of works : "loving God and loving our fellow man". And this category breaks down into "faith, repentance and baptism", which further breaks down into the particular works you refer to. So your statement that vv 14-17 arte talking about different works is false. They are talking about the same works as faith, repentance and baptism.

To Ollie, I was referencing Mat 25, these works are done to "the least of my brethern", specificlly during the tribulation
are counted "as being done as unto Me", you are refering to; James 2:14-17, these are two different context passages.

While I may agree with you partially on what you say, it is only because all good works, have a begining, and in this case they have begining with "doing the WILL of the Father, according to scripture.

The will of God, is expressed in the Command given to all people everwhere to repent. (Acts 17:30)

James 2:14-16, are speaking of the good works, which believers may do unto his fellow man, these are the results of being saved, not to be saved, of course those that believe one works himself into the presence of God, teach these are all lumped together as one great big work, then they emphasize these works done to mankind above the reality of act of repentance, this is similar to water baptism being one and the same as Baptism with the Holy Spirit, those who teach this, of which your church also does, emphasize the physical above the spirituall reality of it, the reason this is done is because, they all (those who teach these teachings of men), live by sight and not faith..

The fact is,  the the unsaved can and do these very acts of kindness, and they are not saved at all, you can read about this in  the following passage of scripture, here Jesus makes it plain;

Mat 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.  
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Notice; verses 22 and 23, specifically;

At verse 22, these goats, are vehemently testifying of their great activity, emphasizing all that they did, in His name no less; and yet, at verse 23, He says to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "

In Mat 25, one can clearly understand, that the difference was not in the deeds themselves but their motive, one of compassion and love done as unto Jesus, because of the love one has for God and his fellow man, note what Jesus said;
at verse;

Mat 7
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Interestingly, the sheep, didn't even know that their work was done as unto Him, because, they were doing it out of love and compassion for the people;  this disproves your theory, about the doing of good works, in order to be saved; as these (the sheep) were not even aware of this. (Mat 25:34-36), otherwise they would not have asked, "when saw we thee...............vs 37, as they would have known that this was their reward for what they had done..

Here, at this passage of scripture, it is God who works it out in those whom he has chosen, and He is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure,

To read it this way leaves off half the verse. That's why I quoted all of it. You can only interpret this passage as you do if you ignore the first half. We work out our salvation WITH God. God doesn't work in us, in spite of ourselves. We work out His works. Cooperation. Like I explained.

Phil2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This verse sheds light on the verse you rely on to work out your salvation, it is God through the Spirit which accomplishes the reality of faith, repentance, baptism with the Holy Spirit; the natural man, desires to save himself without assistance, or in the case of religious men, they want to assist God.

We do understand this scripture perfectly well, because He wills in us, to do of His good pleasure, how hard is this to understand?? It is only not understood by those unto whom, it has not been givcen to undertsand the word.

Since we possess this sin nature, because we are made from the dust of this sin cursed earth, if He didn't work supernaturally within his people thruogh the Spirit, even we would rebel and grieve the Spirit of God who dwells within us.





Cont'd..............

SonofAslan

I believe you have answered my questions, and have given me enough to know mwhere you stand.

Posted by SonofAslan,
Answer to question 2.

The Holy Spirit is not given to ALL, whether baptized or not.

There can be exceptions, as I noted, e.g. the thief on the cross, but these are exactly that, i.e. exceptions.

Of course your statement above, does not align with scripture, I gave you these scriptures, previously and, it is the final authority for this matter, everyone who belongs and has been baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, have been sealed by that same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 8:11), and that same spirit will give life to our mortal bodies in the end;  and, there are no exceptions, regardless of whether anyone agrees with this truth, or Not.  

Rom 8
9.........................Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


I will now answer your question concerning James 2, at the other thread.

I may not do it today, since there are things which I must accomp-lish today, perhaps later this p.m.


Petro

[not to be saved]

SonofAslan.........continued for previous post..

Third point, baptism. Here is where sacramental understandings come in to play. It really is a tragedy that our post-Cartesian world has turned away from traditional metaphysical understandings. It is no coincidence, in my opinion, that Protestantism, with its great errors, is roughly contemporaneous with Descartes and his ultimate destruction of metaphysics. The greatest loss to come out of this is a loss of sacramental mentality. Baptism is a sacrament. What does that mean? It means the form can't be separated from the underlying reality. It means the infinite touches the finite. The infinite unites itself to the finite. This is why the sacraments are called mysteries. Because how can the infinite unite with the finite? How can that which transcends all reality become immanent in created reality? How can God become man? The Incarnation is the foundation for all sacraments. Now baptism is a sacrament. This means that the infinite reality, the bestowing of grace on man, the participation of man in the death and resurrection of Christ, become a reality through the finite reality of going under water. The reality of the sacrament cannot be separated from its form in the water. Now this doesn't necessarily have to be immersion, but it does require water. One can say it's symbolic, but this is only true if one understands a symbol to carry the reality of that which it symbolizes within it.

The Brazen Serpent was a real object, and yet, it symbolized life or death depending whether someone looked upon it in faith, or not,  (of course scripture doesn't say,  these exact words that they who looked upon it by faith would live), but it is plain the peoples FAITH was not in the object but in the promise of God, that whosoever looked upon it, would live, after having bitten by the serpent, and yet this symbol of life, which gave prevented death to many, had to be destroyed because in the end,  because, it became a symbol of death, when they worshipped it by burning incense to it.

Water Baptism, plainly is symbolic of the real Baptism, promised in John 1:31, and according to the scriptures it is grasped by faith. (Col 2:10-12),  I agree, it is an sacramental ordinance, and should  be obediently observed by all Christians, unfortunately it is emphasized as though the mere act of baptism obtains the spiritual reality of it.  

This is evident in the the baptism of infants, within churches, this very act, is contray to scripture, since Jesus made it clear, who is saved.

The parameters of the ordinance was defined by the Lord, at Mat 16:16, He emphacized that same word "believeth" as the qualifying factor, it is plain, and unbeliever , i.e. Such as an infant may be baptized, or some other person, but it accomplishes nothing for them.

In fact, one could almost state, there are people, that have died in unbelief, having been baptized in water.

If by symbol one simply means that it merely represents some other reality, then that is false. Symbols are in a very real sense, that which they symbolize. Can someone be saved without being baptized.

I  agree, perfectly at this point.

Does your church followup, on infants who have been baptized, to bring them into a more perfect understanding of the scriptural teaching??

Or, does the church just assume they will be saved, down the road.

In exceptional circumstances, sure. God can do what he wants. But that is not the normal means by which the Holy Spirit enters the life of a believer. It is an exceptional case. Just as the thief on the cross is an exceptional case.

And so was, Paul, Cornelius, and his family, the Ethiopian Eunuch, and all others who are saved, after Pentecost;  this is where we disagree, since salvation occurs at the baptism/sealing of the Holy Spirit and not when water baptism occurs, the ordinance of the physical is ssymbolic of the reality, I think thiese where your words.

Your understanding of two types of baptism is false, because it separates something that Scripture doesn't separate. Scripture talks about the ultimate reality behind the physical manifestation of that reality, but it doesn't separate out separate kinds of baptism. And yes, I know the Acts verses where the disciples said they only received the baptism of John. But that's not conclusive one way or the other. Were they baptized by John, prior to Christ? Who knows? At Pentecost, the ultimate reality of the Holy Spirit transformed the physical reality of baptism, because that's what baptism does, it is where the Holy Spirit comes upon the believer. This wasn't possible before the Holy Spirit had been sent, and this is what happened at Pentecost. That there is only one baptism is explicitly stated by Paul in Ephesians 4:5. And I've seen your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21. It is wrong. The Baptism Peter is talking about is baptism in water. That's why he says "not the removing of dirt from the body". It is not that water washes away physical dirt that baptism saves us, but rather because it restores our conscience. This is also what Paul talks about when he says we are baptized into Christ death and raised with Him into life. This is all baptism in water, understood sacramentally.

Ohh...........?  The scriptures tell us , There were many disciples that followed Jesus, and when He spoke it was necessary to  eat His flesh and drinking His blood, many where offended, and followed Him no more, (Jhn 6:66)
The Orthodox church is no different than the Catholic church, or the Lutheran chuch, together with others, which baptize infants, many people in these instituions (not all I admit) have been water baptized and, cannot articulate, what you have articulated about water baptism, all they know is I am a Christian because I have been baptized and am a member of this  church.

I separate them, not because they are seprate but because, in order to see the error, it needs to be separated to be examined, closely, More emphasis is made on water baptism, than the baptism, which Jhn said would be performed by Jesus (Jhn 1:31)

Ok, one last thing. You stated to Ollie that the works of Matt 25 were different works. No. They are the same works. They are the works that arise from a living and obedient faith. It isn't the specific acts that save us. We aren't saved because we fed the hungry. We are saved because our living and obedient faith activated the grace bestowed on us by God for our salvation (more on that later too – probably on the other trhead).

Well, actually, Ollie, does not believe in Adams sin (original sin), being passed on to all men (Rom 5:12), but it matters little whether one believes it, won't change the truth one bit, since ALL sin, and there is none that doeth right ( Rom 3:10,23), none includes infants, unfortunately.

But infants and their deatrh, is another matter, no sense in discussin git here.

You are confusing the issue though, you need to explain what you mean, here.

You said, above;
"We aren't saved because we fed the hungry. We are saved because our living and obedient faith activated the grace bestowed on us by God for our salvation."

The scriptures do not support this statement at all, as written, please explain.

The fact is the saved, Christian do these things, not to be saved,

But because we the elect,  are saved. And these works are Evidenced by our obedient living.
Jesus put it this way.........................

................You shall know them by their fruits.
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(Mat 7:16-18)

Blessings,

Petro

[for he that cometh to God]

 popsted by SonofAslan,

Petro, no worries. I was away from the computer all this time anyway, so I didn't get interrupted by your interruptions one bit.

In my opinion, you misunderstand what "believe" means in Scripture. Notice Scripture never say we are supposed to believe something about something else. It always says we are supposed to believe IN someone. That someone is Christ.
What do we have to believe? No propositions. This is a tragedy of our post-Cartesian world that knowledge has come to mean factual knowledge of certain propositional truths. This was never what knowledge meant in Scripture. This is why the union of man and wife in sex is called "knowing". Isaac "knew" Rebekah. Knowing is an intimate relationship with someone. And believing in Christ means having that relationship with Him. And that's what we must "believe". We must come into an intimate relationship with Christ.

SonasAslan,
 
I think not, I understand what the word "believe"  means perfectly well, as spoken of in the scriptures, it is not that difficult, and not as mystrerious as you might make it to be.

And, regardless of the fact that the scriptures have been written in Hebrew/Greek and translated into English, the fact is, it can be understood, by the reader of English, perfectly wel.

Note:

The Word believe in this verse, it specifically is speaking of faith in God, not Jesus it is God the Father, who sheds mercy and grace,thru faith, "it is a gift of God"; the natural man always wants to appeal to the Father, instead of the Son, yet he can't get there from here, because the Son is the One that reveals the Father, and  no one can come to the father except by the Son (Jhn 14:6), the Father is the One who gives the gift of salvation in the end..manifested by the indwelling seal by the His Spirit. (Rom 8:9)

This is the proof of the pudding and if one belongs to Christ, he possess the Spirit of God, who witnesses to our spirit, we are the sons of God, this is the inward witness, we belong to Him. (Rom 8:16-18), and those that are led by the Spirit of God, are the children of God (Rom 8:14)

No follow this closely;

Heb 11
 6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now, while this agrees with your statement, that one must believe in someone, that someone is God.

And then again, this person (he) at the above verse is given to Christ by the Father (Jhn 6:37); this is the end result of the Father drawing the person  to Christ, (Jhn 6:44)  , so that his belief or faith is in Jesus, and not in his (the individuals) works. I think so far, it appears we agree.

Except for this point.

But then we come to Baptism.

I have a lot more to respond to given your prolific activity during my absence, so bear with me please.

That's the first point, i.e. believe. And it is a belief, i.e. faith, which works. A faith which simply says, "Oh I believe that to be true" is nothing. It is dead. It saves no one. Faith must act. It must work. Otherwise... blech.

Second point, i.e. repent. I disagree with you on one minor, I believe, point. It is not the sin of unbelief we must repent of. It is ALL sin. As Scripture further says, whoever breaks one command is guilty of breaking all of it (I don't remember where it says that, but it's there). We must turn away from ALL sin in order to attain salvation. (I will have more on this later, as it is only grace that allows us to fully do this.)

You are correct, we must forsake sin, but there is only one sin that separates sinfull man, from God. Because it only took Adam, one sin to bring on death.  All other sins are simply evidence of the sinful, nature.  

God is offering a pardon, and the sin of unbelief, is the sin, which keeps mankind from coming to God by Faith,  although man can excersice faith, he can't do it in the spiritual realm, because He is dead to the things of God (1 Cor 2:14),

When one comes to Faith in Christ because of God the Spirit working in this person to draw his to Christ, the sin of unbelief, is settled, once and for all time, sins are forgiven, and then sinner, ism cleansed from sin, and brought out from bondage to sin, to a new life in Christ.

The sin of unbelief, is the sin, that condemns all mankind in this age of Grace, God is offering a pardon to everyone, and sinners must receive or accept this gift on Gods terms, those that don't will be judged not  ,for their sins, but their works;

Yes, this is what I said, all of mankind, will be judged not for their sins, but their works in the end, because all men want to work there way into Gods grace, even those claiming to be Christians, this is what separates the believers of grace only and believers in grace plus works. (doing good and/or keeping the law)

All are dead in Adams original sin (1 Cor 15:45) the process of dying began with Adams sin (Rom 5:12), prior to this there was no death, even the creation groans because of the result of Adams sin (Rom 8:21-22), and there is none that doeth right, according to the word.

Rom 3
10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Do you disagree with me because,  you believe a Christian must keep the  the Law perfectly and do good works?

You had previously stated, the work is; believe, repent, and be baptized; yet know it includes good works.

I trust this isn't so, since the scriptures have declared from the beginning, that;

The law was never given that by keeping it man, could be saved, in fact the Law was only given to man, that He might KNOW he had sinned, the Apostle made this plain as daylight, in Rom 3:20.

The Jew unto whom the oracles of God where entrusted to, could have his sins atoned for in the OT, by bring an animal, in accordance with the law that it could be sacrificed for his sin, but all these were just a shadow, pointing to the real sacrifice of God's own Lamb - Jesus, death, burial and resurrection ended the OT Law of sin and death (Moses Law) (Rom 8:2).

The OT laws and ordinances were abolished in His (Christ) flesh, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;   Eph 2:15.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Rom 3:31)
And Christians today live unto a higher law, (I think you made reference to this in passing)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. By the law of faith  (Rom 3:26-28), so that Love and Obedience with you talked about is the result of Faith.

Unbelief, is what keeps people from coming to Jesus, they refuse to believe what the Spirit teaches, and that is, that all manner of sin can be forgiven, except blashpeme of the Holy Spirit.

Man confesses with his mouth what he believes in His heart, and since confession is made unto salvation (Rom 10:10), likewise, unbelief, requires confession, at it is manfested by rejecting what the Spirit expressly teaches(Mat 12:31-32).

And this is what the Spirit teaches, thru;
1 Jhn 5
12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Can you lose "Eternal Life"??  If you answer yes, you deny the very words of Jesus, He says,

"they shall never perish", if you can lose it, it may very well be you never possessed it to begin with.

Now, Faith in Jesus, ends unbelief, and everyone that believes has "ternal life" according to the Spirit.


Cont'd...................

[will and do]

In the post where I entered into this discussion, you listed a list of verses which center around work, and quoted this passage, and then you went on to quote the passage of the sheep and the goats, and when I asked about the works, you specifically, stated it was "believe, repent and be baptized"
While I believe ( as I have stated already) two of the three to be true, and possibly the third, what

Yes, we can only do good by the grace of God, but we only DO good when we respond in faith to the grace God bestows on us. This response in faith is our part of the covenant. It is in this way that we cooperate with God for our salvation. And this is what Scripture means when it says we must,

What about Baptism, evidence that salvation has occurred is the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

He leads all believer's unto the truth of what is the word of God, from faith to faith.

Philippians 2:12-13 (NKJV)
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
 
How can Paul tell us to work out our own salvation while at the same time telling us that God works in us? We must work out our salvation, we must strive for it, but we do this by cooperating with God's grace working in us. How do we cooperate? Through faith which works itself out in love. This is what it means to persevere as Paul says we must do:

Here, at this passage of scripture,  it is God who works it out in those whom he has chosen, and He is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure,

What is this person "working out"??

In this passage one must not ignore the context of the word, "work out" hear clearly means the solution of the problem that was vexing the Phillipians, that is to say, their contentions.

Why were they having contentions??  The letter tells us..no doubt there were evil workers among them, dividing and corrupting the truth.

And the meaning of the word "salvation" in this passage is, is not the salvation of the soul, but deliverance from the evil snares of the god of this world, which hinder the work, of bringing men to Christ, the true work of all children of God.  

Hebrews 10:36 (NKJV)
For you have need of endurance [i.e. perseverance], so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

The perseverance needed to finish is spiritual, and it is given by the Spirit, in fact, it is the Spirit that perseveres in the end, He will finish, the work He began in all Christians because He never gives up. This is what enables Christians to stand in the evil day.(Eph 6:13-18)

The "will of God" , is as we have stated already, "that none should perish, however, He expresses His will, which Paul articulated clearly to all men in

Acts 17;
30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

God commands all men everywhere to repent, this is Gods will, and Jesus, said;

Mk 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 [color=Red And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [/color]
Kind of reminds us of the sheep and the goats, of Mat 25, doesn't it.

And again Jesus said;

Mat 12
50 For whosoever shall do the [/b] which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The book of Hebrews written to the Jewish Christian believer, was one of reconciling the Law, with Grace, The Apostle, in several places, calls to their attention, their need of not placing their faith in obediance to the Law of Moses,  he wrote,

For us, he writes


Rom 10
4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And at ;

Gal 3
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

1 Timothy 4:16 (NKJV)
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue [i.e. persevere] in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

and Christ tells us to " strive to enter the narrow gate" (Luke 13:24).

We must struggle and strive and "run the race" and "fight the good fight", and we will only attain salvation by doing these things. But it is not these things which save us. It is the grace of God given freely to all men which saves us. But this grace only saves us when we respond to it in faithful obedience. A good analogy would perhaps be a seed. Grace is a seed that only becomes a tree if it is watered. But water doesn't produce the fruit on the tree. The seed is what becomes a fruit bearing tree. The water merely nourishes the seed and allows it to become what it is by nature. Grace is the seed, which when watered by our faithful obedience allows us to become what we were created to be, i.e. fruit bearing trees.


This should also explain what I believe is the proper understanding of the Titus passage.

This is good, and of course I don't disagree, and when seen in the proper light, we can see, that that water you speak of is given from heaven to increase what was first only trust,  in Gods Word, ending in full blown faith in Jesus finished works (Eph 1:13)

(this is where that verse which got astray from belongs)

Just like the physical seed needs physical water to grow into a tree, the spirtual seed which

produces the tree of , faith,

 (can you see, how it (FAITH) is given from heaven, to believe what one could never believe before, if, left to himself)

so, that same spiritual seed the word of God, needs to be watered with spiritual water (the same word of God), it is the same water, with which the Christian is Baptized with, and It is Jesus who Baptizeth with the Holy Spirit,

This is the real,  Baptism required (Jhn 1:31-33),

(not physical water baptism, Mk16:16, although Christians should be Baptized in accordance to the ordinance given by Jesus),

even unbelievers who claim to believe can be baptized in water, this is clear, form this verse at Mark, but it produces nothing.

Blessings, Petro

 posted by SonofAslan

I couldn't find where Ephesians 1:13 said anything about faith being a gift. Did you mean a different passage?

SonofAslan,

Sorry,  Yes....... I meant Eph 2:8-9

If you mean Ephesians 2:8 ("For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"), the word "this" in this passage cannot be referring to "faith". The Greek is clearer than the English here, because in Greek, the demonstartive "this" has to agree with the word to which it refers in gender and number. The word "faith" is feminine, and "this" is neuter. It also can't refer to "grace" for the same reason. "Grace" is also feminine. The only thing it can refer to in this passage is salvation, which is a verb and so has no gender or number.

Actually this word "this" has three distinct meanings and can be interpreted in three different different ways in this passage, one way is as you have stated, however not to derail the discussion, I will agree with you that it ultimately focuses on Salvation, for sure.

In other words their is nothing one can do to produce salvation.  And faith in Jesus is not something any of us produce without first believing the word of God, the Gosple, because only the hearing of word of God by the Gosple, according to this passage and Romans 10:17, produces faith;

" So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

This is why Jesus, was able to quote Isaiah 6, when He said;

Mat 13
13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Short answer, the good we must do is respond to God's grace through faith and love. This is a piddling amount of good, and even that would be impossible if it weren't for God's grace.
But it is still an act of our free will. God's grace allows us to choose freely how we will respond.

Long answer:

While we can do some good things through our free will, we can only do virtuous acts by the grace of God. That's true. But God's grace has been poured generously on all men.


Romans 5:16-18 (NKJV)
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Just as Adam's sin caused sin and death to come upon all men, so also Christ's righteousness causes grace to come upon all men. We all are granted grace freely. But grace is not irresistible. God honors our freedom and allows us to choose whether to respond to this grace in faith or reject it. This is what Paul means when he says,

Virtue and doing good, are still only  human efforts, although this may show a person has a desire to live righteously, the motive is what matters, and since God knows the heart of all men, ultimately, it is revealed in whether they obey His word perfectly.  Jesus said to the Pharasees, these religious, pious hypocrites, who accused him of being born out of fornication, at;

 Jhn 8
45   And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 [coloir=Red] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?[/color]
47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
In your other post which I will address later, you mention believing in a person not in an an act , and I understand this, but here Jesus in so many words is saying, "If you hear me, you hear me because God has given you ears to hear, these are His words."


He said this because: He, (Jesus), is that prophet spoken of in Deut 18:18-19, whom God promised He would send, who would every word He himself put in His mouth, and the day is coming, when God will judge everyone that heard His (Jesus's) words.

In short, we all will live or die, by the words Jesus spoke, in the name of Jehovah. God.

Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

God grants us grace, but it is only through our faith that grace becomes salvifically efficacious. If grace saved us with no responsibility on our part, then Paul would have said, "Through grace God saves you." But no. It is not through grace we are saved, it is through faith. But what allows our faith to work salvation in us is God's grace. This is what it means when Paul adds in the next verse that it is not through works that we are saved lest any should boast. It isn't our works that save us, just as it isn't our faith that saves us. It is God's grace. But what turns God's grace into salvation is our faith, which works. This latter definition of faith is what James meant when he says,

This is true, however:    "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"     (Rom10:17, Isa 6:10)
God unstops ears, so that they may hear, the word of God.

Faith in Gods word produces, belief in the truth, the principle elements of truth in the Gosple, is the God loves all men and his desire is that  none should perish;  In fact,  God's will is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance (2Pet3:9), so everyone who hears comes to the realization, that he is a sinner and will perish, so to understand this one must believe the word of God, who in the end is Jesus; and the Apostle tells us in; Acts 15:9 refering to the account of Cornelius at Acts 10:, that when they heard the word of truth, God purified the heart by FAITH, and yet these were not yet baptized.

Two questions;

1. Do you see belief in Gods word as work?  You needn't answer;

Actually, I see you do believe this as it was  listed as part of the work required for salvation.

2. If  Baptism is part of the Work equation, how is it the Holy Spirit is given to everyone, before the are Baptized?

James 2:14-17 (NKJV)
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

and later,


James 2:24-26 (NKJV)
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just as grace is only efficacious when we respond to it in faith, so also faith is only efficacious when it works in obedience to the commands of God.

One of these Two verses, oppose what you have stated previously; You said, the works is believe, repent, and be baptized, verses 14-17 above, are speaking of some other work,  than that stated.

Cont'd....

[and I will be with thee.]

Petro-

Welcome back!  I hope your absence was not related to your recent surgeries and that you are recovering speedily.

Thanks, I am revcovering very well,
No, Actually I had family in as one of my sons, graduated from an engineering program, and spent wonderful time with them all.

“I don't have to quote commentaries,”

You can take a hint... thats good..

I cannot see it because scripture does not support it.  I really don’t want to re-hash the argument,

I can understand why...

but I think its important that we recognize that both you and I are relying on English translations of a very ancient tongue.  As such, we have to take into account the hermeneutics of our translations.  What are the underlying principles that guided the translator?  In this instance, the word that the KJV translates as “worship”, the NASB (the translation I happen to use most of the time), translates it as “bow down.”  Which is actually the more literal rendition of the Hebrew word.  This bowing is done in different circumstances in the OT.  Sometimes it is done as a sign of respect for a superior, in others it is in idolatry and in yet others, it is a sign of worshiping the Lord.  You are basing your entire argument on that one word, and yet that word is identical in all of the situations I just mentioned.  How do you know that it is to be translated worship here, and not to respectfully bow down?  The fact is, you don’t.  You are basing this on your own circular presuppositions that are not supported by the text, and then accusing me of blindness because I can actually think logically and without presumptive bias.    

Because to me the scriptures speak clearly that this was Jesus, God himself spoke to Joshua, and gave Him the Battle Plan.

And, it doesn't surprise me you cannot see this,

You shopuld take time to read the book of Deutoronomy, especially at Chapter 31 it precedes the Book of Joshua, at verse 14,

The Lord said to  Moses; Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge.

and down at verse;

23  And he gave Joshua the son of Nun a charge, and said, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou shalt bring the children of Israel into the land which I sware unto them: and I will be with thee.

Do you suppose, Joshua, was anticipating the Lord, upon entering the land??

We read at Joshua 6:2, the same Lord that gave Joshua this charge, spoke to Him, and not only set the host at the battle stattions, but delkivered the plan of attack.

Don't bring up the proskuneo vs proskynesis, issue again, it wont fly at these verses.

And inspite of your NASB, translation, that translates the word as,  "Bow Down" remember the commandment??,

here let me post it again.

Ex 20
5  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


Is this the same word?

“These same words I have italicized are  written in the account where Jehovah appeared unto Moses in Exodus 3.”

Moses taking off his sandals is not a form of worship – it’s a sign of humility and awe.  Nor does the text imply that it is only in the presence of God does ground become holy.  One can easily make an argument that the Captain of the Hosts of the Lord is certainly an incredibly powerful being, one who acts intimately on behalf of God and would likely radiate God’s glory and divinity, thereby consecrating the ground he stood on.  Or, one could easily argue that the mouthpiece of God – here in the form of an angel, elsewhere as a burning bush – sanctifies the ground or place around him due to the glory of God’s words and commands.  Or is Jesus a bush, too?  

Of course, you bring up an interesting point with the “I AM” references.  If that angel is Jesus/God, why doesn’t he identify himself using God’s normal honorifics?  And why is his statement so short?  Very rarely in scripture is God ever known for his brevity.
 

Hey you ask me?,  you are the theologian, remember..

What is interesting is that when the Lord commissioned Moses to bring the nation out of Egypt, He told Moses;

Ex 3
14  ........................................, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I suppose you might have your own theory, but it is obvious to me, the nation had no problem accepting whom Moses spoke of when he told them who had sent him.

Is it because, they anticipated being delivered out of the house bondage by God??

”Nowhere in scripture does a mere angel ever accept worship, but here the Angel of the Lord commands worship, thereby proving His divine nature.”

Actually, this knife cuts both ways.  If an angel never accepts worship, and this angel didn’t accept worship, then it could be because Joshua was not worshiping him, but bowing respectfully.  And if he was bowing respectfully, it must be because this is not Jesus, but an angel.  

Unfortunately, for your theory;  the word makes it clear Joshua, worshipped the Angel..

“The Host of the Lord, which Jesus came to command was not that of angels, but  the armies of children of Israel,”

Scripture please.  

What you missed it??  Try reading Joshua 6:2-5,

The Host that encircled Jericho, is the fighting men of the nation, who are refferred to as the armies of God, whom God delivers from Egypt.  Try ;

Ex 7:1-5 "mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments."

for this one..

”So, these verses leave you with no grounds for believing angels can be worshipped.”

You’ll have to refresh my memory as to when I ever said this.  

Try your first post, where you entered in at the conversation, where the worship of angels were being discussed, at the Orthodox thread.

”It never ceases to amaze me the pious excuses idolaters use to excuse the things they do, contrary to the word of God.”

Hmm, I could point out quite a few things that you believe and do that are contrary to the word and will of God.    

Please do, feel free to do it..

”They are used to better worship God, according to their claims, this is a lame excuse.”

Really?  Whats your excuse then?  

”Your understanding of this passage of scripture, springboards you into, a wresting of the scriptures to your own damnation,”

And now I remember why I was half-way glad to see you leave the forum.  You can judge and condemn all you want, Petro, but all it really does is propel you deeper and deeper into sin.  Or don’t you remember those verses about not judging, praying for your enemies, gently correcting a brother, etc, etc, etc?  Your actions and words clearly show they have slipped your mind.  

You are to sensitive, to someone pointing out sin to you, you should be so sensitive to Gods word.

”I simply am not impressed..”

Well, a debate is only as engaging as the points presented by both sides. I can’t help it if your contentions lack any credibility or cogency.  

OK..

Blessings, Petro

pnotc,

I agree with you, however, the discussion, seems to be stuck, at a point, where lightsaviour insists that, it is not possible that a family group, is unable to worship God, apart from, structured setting, I have pointed out, this is not so, in order to unstick the conversation, one must see, the spiritual truth of the church structure.

The church is the body of Christ.

By the way, Jesus is the Captain of of the Armies of Jehovah, is the same Captain, of the Host of Jehovah who are all those who are saved.  (Heb 2:10)


Petro

[kind of Good, and how much of it]

Hmmm, I disagree. We can do some good through our free will. Even non-Christians love their children, or may do a kind act every once in a while. We can do good naturally. Because God created us, and He created us good. That has not completely disappeared. It has only been besmirched.

Our free will in cooperation with god's grace, draws us further and further into the life of God, which is what salvatiuon is. Yes, we cannot come to God unless He calls us, but he calls all of us. The difference is who responds positively.

I agree completely w/ 1 Cor 2:14.

SonofAslan,

Ok, thank you for at least being candid, and honest.

So, I think, so far we have established that the work necessary for salvation is, as you have stated;

Believe, Repent, and be Baptized.

So, what kind of Good, and how much of it, must one do to be able to come to faith, repentance and baptism.

I ask this question, because at Mat 25, the sheep were already sheep, and the goats, goats, when the angels gathered and separated them.

And Ephesians 1:13, still speaks of Faith being  a gift given by the grace of God.

And then we read at;

Titus 3
5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Petro

[the Gospel of your salvation, one must trust the word of God to be true, before one can believe it. The process leading up to saving Faith is given to us in (Eph 1:13). It ends with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, or as it is stated therein, "sealed with the Spirit of Promise"In your opinion, or from your own personal studies; What is it, you must believe?? Many people will say imediately when asked this question, believe in Jesus. The question is, Beleive, What about Jesus?? This is what one must believe in the end, but at the beginning of the process, one must believe Gods word to be the truth , hear what Jesus said: (Jhn 7:16-19, 14:6)What does the Gospel teach?? If not, the Gospel according to the Apostle Paul;1 Cor 1515:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:The main thrust of the Gospel is that Jesus died for the sins of sinners..that He shed His blood in the place of His people for the remission of Sin (Mt 1:21)In order to make this a personal Gosple, one must understand and acknowledge and believe, one is a sinner, condemned to perish in Hell fire. He died for MY sins, that I might not perish.2. Second point, REPENT - The person that understands and believes he is a sinner, and that Jesus shed his blood for sinner then must wrestle with the teaching of the word of truth, that unless one repents from sin, (and by the way, this is the sin of unbelief) he cannot have his sins forgiven, this is the reality of the Gosple, one must act on light shed on ones understanding by the Gosple.3. All must Be BAPTIZED - superficially, many take baptism to mean "water baptism"; I don't know where you are on this, but, I will tell you the scriptures speak of One Baptism that matters, yet two types are mentioned, one of them is water baptism, (I had been going around in circles with a couple of individuals on this forum, who, claimed Baptism was necessary for Salvation (water immerssion) giving the impression, that without water Baptism, it was impossible to be saved, and as I presseed the matter with them, they, conceded that water Baptism was not what saved, but was necessary, since it was an ordinance instituted by the Lord Himself. I won't argue this point at all, but there are those who, take this to mean, and emphacise that unless one gets himself water baptized, he cannot be saved, and they even emphacise infant baptism, after having quoted Mk 16:16; in spite of the fact, infants are incapable of believing anything, because of their age.John the Baptist was ordained of God to Baptize in water , so that Jesus might be made manifest to the nation of Israel (Jhn 1:33) and by his own testimony He said God, said unto him, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (Jhn 1:33) , this was the reason, he came baptizing with water, The Scripture says it was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (Mk 1:4), and Jesus said His blood was the blood of the New Covenant shed for the remission of Sins. (Mt 26:28)Jesus, in;Mk 16, states emphatically;16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/.color]Please Note, the emphasis on the word "believe"; Is it possile to be baptized in water and not believe?? And yet believe one is a Christian.?, just because he was baptized in water, and belongs to a church or some organization.I am speaking of the type of belief needed to become saved, not just believing in what one has done..I know this has been long and tedious, but the ground work must be laid, in order to comprehend what comes next.Tell me where you disagree, with what I have said, so far??Blessings, Petro]

Sonof Aslan,

I tried posting this earlier, but lost my server.

Concerning your last comment, about the deeds of the sheep.

Don't count your chickens, yet.  I would suggest you read Mat 25:31-46, because, we will look at it next, after concluding these points.


Lets deal with the hard passages, which you, place faith in, which are an obstruction to you in dealing with James 2, the faith works passage.

The points we both agree, on so far in order for anyone to be saved is that they, whosoever, they be; are these two points;  the third point you have raised, may or may not bring us together, it depends on what you recognize which baptism is the real thing.

Unfortunately, I find that I have to deal with baptism this way, in order to come to agreement with people since there are different teafchings and understandings, concerning baptism.

1. All must BELIEVE -  of course this begs the question what is it, they must believe??

The answer to this is found in scripture and it is a process which begins with first simply trusting the word of God, which can only come after having heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation,  one must trust the word of God to be true, before one can believe it. The process leading up to saving Faith is given to us in (Eph 1:13). It ends with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, or as it is stated therein, "sealed with the Spirit of Promise"

In your opinion, or from your own personal studies;  

What is it, you must believe??  

Many people will say imediately when asked this question, believe in Jesus.  The question is, Beleive,  What about Jesus??  This is what one must believe in the end, but at the beginning of the process, one must believe Gods word to be the truth , hear what Jesus said: (Jhn 7:16-19, 14:6)

What does the Gospel teach??  If not, the Gospel according to the Apostle Paul;

1 Cor 15
15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The main thrust of the Gospel is that Jesus died for the sins of sinners..that He shed His blood in the place of His people for the remission of Sin (Mt 1:21)

In order to make this a personal Gosple, one must understand and acknowledge and believe, one is a sinner, condemned to perish in Hell fire.   He died for MY sins, that I might not perish.

2. Second point, REPENT -   The person that understands and believes he is a sinner, and that Jesus shed his blood for sinner then must wrestle with the teaching of the word of truth, that unless one repents from sin, (and  by the way, this is the sin of unbelief) he cannot have his sins forgiven, this is the reality of the Gosple, one must act on light shed on ones understanding by the Gosple.

3. All must Be BAPTIZED - superficially, many take baptism to mean "water baptism";  I don't know where you are on this, but, I will tell you the scriptures speak of  One Baptism that matters, yet two types are mentioned, one of them is water baptism, (I had been going around in circles with a couple of individuals on this forum, who, claimed Baptism was necessary for Salvation (water immerssion)  giving the impression, that without water Baptism, it was impossible to be saved, and as I presseed the matter with them, they, conceded that water

Baptism was not what saved, but was necessary, since it was an ordinance instituted by the Lord Himself. I won't argue this point at all, but there are those who, take this to mean, and emphacise that unless one gets himself water baptized, he cannot be saved, and they even emphacise infant baptism, after having quoted Mk 16:16; in spite of the fact, infants are incapable of believing anything, because  of their age.

John the Baptist was ordained of God to Baptize in water , so that Jesus might be made manifest to the nation of Israel (Jhn 1:33) and by his own testimony He said God, said unto him, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (Jhn 1:33) , this was the reason, he came baptizing with water,

The Scripture says it was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.  (Mk 1:4), and Jesus said His blood was the blood of the New Covenant shed for the remission of Sins.  (Mt 26:28)

Jesus, in;

Mk 16,   states emphatically;
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/.color]

Please Note,  the emphasis on the word "believe";  

Is it possile to be baptized in water and not believe??  And yet believe one is a Christian.?,

just because he was baptized in water, and belongs to a church or some organization.

I am speaking of the type of belief needed to become saved, not just believing in what one has done..

I know this has been long and tedious, but the ground work must be laid, in order to comprehend what comes next.

Tell me where you disagree, with what I have said, so far??

Blessings,  
Petro



   

[What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?]

 posted by Ollie as reply #59
James tells us we are not justified by faith alone but also by works. Justified in its use here means righteous. We are made righteous through faith that produces works of God. We are saved by faith but cannot be righteous with faith alone but a true faith will work at that faith and do the things,( works ), God has commanded us to do.

Ollie,

Your statement above,  contradicts scripture, and you have posted one of them.

Can you reconcile your thoughts on the subject.

To the question; posed to Jesus by this man; at vs 28;

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?


They asked; What work can we perform, that we might work the works of God??  Note what led up to this question, verses 26-27.

Jhn 6
29  This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The other verse is;

Rom 4
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.