[mystic]

Just a point,  the Plymouth Brethern's founder was a man by the name of, Dr. Edward Cronin, in 1825 at Dublin, Ireland, this church was also established in England, which is where , J.N. Darby, an Ireland Clergyman and Lawyer,  enters the picture around 1827, he was not the founder, which is a misconception, but was influential over the years as to its success, in the split known even today as the "Closed Brethern Assemblies", while the original Brethern churches are refferred to as  the "Open Brethern Assemblies".


The raputre is actually more associated with a;
"heretic was Edward Irving (1792-1834) who was deposed in 1833 from the Church of Scotland on the charge that he held to the sinfulness of Christ's humanity. Prior to this, manifestation of tongues and healing appeared in his church in London, and his congregation had become a rallying point for millennial expectations."

"The, Irvingite eschatology is unclear. The Irvingites did not teach imminency, or that the seventeenth week of Daniel would intervene between the Rapture and the Second Advent. These were doctrines that Darby clearly taught in the Powerscourt conference of 1833. A historian gives a proper description on this subject."

"Darby's opponents claimed that the doctrine [of the rapture] originated in one of the outburst of tongues in Edward Irving's church about 1832. This seems to be a groundless and pernicious charge. Neither Irving nor any member of the Albury group advocated any doctrine resembling the secret rapture. As we have seen, they were all historicists, looking for the fulfillment of one or another prophecy in the revelation as the next step in the divine time table, anticipating the second coming at Christ soon but not immediately. There is no connection between Darby's Pre-Tribulationism ant the Irvingite teaching."  Anyhow;

Margaret Mac Donald, a fifteen year old mystic, in 1828, supposedly is the first person to mention "pre-tribulation rapture" she had in a vision, and wrote about it in 1830. She was a member of Irvings church.

Read the rest of the story, here at:

I am sure there are other sites, which may shed more info, on the question.  I think, 1830 is probaly the ealiest the date.

http://www.thekkel.com/rapture.html

Note , how Margaret MacDonald is refferred to, "A Mystic".

Prior to 1830, there never existed the Teaching of the Rapture, Pre-Millinial or otherwise, but since this is an end times, prophecy, it doesn't mean, that just because the church fathers didn't teach it, it is not taught in scripture, since it is the scriptures which establish doctrinal truths to be taught,  not, the church.  

So I wouldn't discount the teaching of it altogether. Even thou I personally do not ascribe to the Pre mil view point, for the simple reason, there is nothing said about a secret rapture in scripture, which is how Pre-Millinialists fit it, into their theology.

What is clear is that Jesus, does return towards the very end of the Tribulation.

Blessings,

Petro

Nostalgia,

I can see where your coming from, more clearly know, little by little, as you post more and more, you reveal where your faith is.

posted by Nostalgia in reply #4

Apophatism well done.

Imagine this.

Christians, need to stay clear of mystic teachings, they have no value whatsoever, and they certainly do not honor God.

Consider this site; for this mystic teaching;

http://www.monasticdialog.com/bulletins/67/bhajanananda.htm

Apophatism...................... denies the possibility of knowing and describing God in human terms, even going so far as to strip Him of the attribute of existence, thus leading  to  mysticism, which is nothing other than transforming knowledge into ignorance.

Ignorance of God and his will, for man.

This is evident when dealing with some individuals.

But speaking of God; Job says;

Chap 5
12  He disappointeth the devices of the crafty, so that their hands cannot perform their enterprise.
13  He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

and, the Apostles tells us at;

1 Cor 3
18  Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20  And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.




Petro

Well now...

The POV's shared here from those who claim to possess faith, is self evident, that their faith is not on what God, has done and continues to do, but in what they (those who claim it)themselves do.

But unto us who believe, the Holy Spirit is given, that we might know the things that are freely given to us by Him.

Proof of this is in the doctrines you espouse to, which deny the gift of eternal security,  you simply deny it, making God out to be a liar.

And don't make any bones about it...

That you are a sinner is true, and so am I, but thank God, he has forgiven me.. He can do the same for you..


P.S.  Your signature, quotes, A. Tarvosky, is he the same communist wrter who was exiled to siberia..?

Petro

[for show, I am sure...]

Petro-

I don't much care about your book or my status in it.  I do, however, see that once again you have failed to answer many of my questions.  Its very telling how you refuse answer the points that undermine your argument.  Perhaps because your argument is without merit to begin with?

And yes, the likelihood that my analysis would lead to someone's death has always been there.  But exactly what that means and precisely what war did to a nation and a people was never made clear to me until I did my tour in Bosnia.  There I saw the long-term effects of war, the terrible spiritual, physical and economic impact.  And I found myself unable to participate in such a horrible activity.  Just so I have it clear - the experiences we have and the things we see should never have any impact on us?  We should never change or seek a different path?  Because that is exactly what you are saying.  You are saying that once I became a Christian, I should never experience any kind of growth or change.

Also, I've never been a Calvinist.  Not ever once even came close to that horrible doctrine that makes God the author of sin.  If Methodists are Calvinists, that was never really made clear in my 3rd grade Sunday school class.

"So, what you never objected to while believing in eternal security, now you conscienciouly object to, without so much as giving the commandment and second thought.."

As I stated before, a Calvinist can never understand pacifism.  It makes no sense, since it views every human as inherently evil and worthless.  If they are, whats the problem with killing them?  Furthermore, God's already picked who's going to heaven and who's going to hell, so killing someone isn't going to affect their eternal condition any.  If they're elect, you'll see them in heaven and have a good laugh about putting a round in their head.  If they're condemned, well, what else do they deserve, those sinful bastards?  Eternal security really doesn't factor into it - irresistible grace is what makes pacifism incomprehensible to Calvinism.  And I'm really not sure what commandment you are referring to and how exactly it relates to your points.  I'm relativley certain, however, that you will not answer that question as you've so artfully dodged my other inquiries.  

pnotc,

Ohh..........


To point out how dishonest you really are, you said you attended a non denominational church and you even held teaching positions there, if I recall.

During your attendance there, did you confess these thoughts, you have revealed herein, that is to say about, not believing in eternal security, or where you ignorant of the statement of faith this fellowship ascribed to;  

Don't you think the parents would have been, interested in knowing about your personal feelings about such an ungodly doctrine, most all non denominational  churches hold to;   more likely, you never expressed these horrible feeelings about Calvinism, while you taught sunday school.  Uhh..

This is the epitamy of decit, to withold your repugnant feelings towards doctrines, these  parent  wanted their children to know, learn, and understand.

Somehow I've  come see you as a deceitful person.

It is useless to ask any questions, since I see plainly that your motive is to deny what the truth of scripture teaches, to further your own Orthodox leanings.

I am amamzed, you and SOA, do not recognize, that you are supposed to believe in the Semi-Pelegian doctrine, embraced by Orthodoxy at the Council of Orange (529),  I assumed you guys knew this, SoA, even denies it, while admiting there are serious questionable tenets, ascribed to it.

It might also, surprise you that it was at this council, the Augustianian views on faith and grace were also embraced, for show, I am sure...

Petro

pnotc,

Do you want to know, so that you can continue to suppress the truth and deny it, or because you want to know the truth of what these scriputres teach.

Wasn't it you who, stated; The Book of Romans is the book, more often misquoted??

Your question is to continue your weak arguments, and;

To me this means you already have an answer, I say, work it out yourself..if............. you don't know.

But thanks for your invitation anyhow...

Petro-

Your verse says nothing about people getting a measure of faith from God, only their gifts.  And that varies according to their faith.  Their.  Possesive - indicates ownership or belonging.  

What other verses you got to prove your point on faith being given to everyone in different amounts?

pnotc,

You seem to be in the dark about this, let's just leave it there..



Petro

["And he believed in the LORD;and He counted it to him for righteousness."]

Ollie,

Since this passage is answering the question, from the human perspectice, the answer is yes.

In the eyes of man, you must show forth tangible works, in order to have credibility, before the eyes of other men, but not before God.

If you care you can see my explanation to SonofAslan, at my Post "Open Theism..." this forum, at reply #23.

Two verses, quoted are;

Rom3:28. Rom 4:2.

James, speaks of certain works Abraham performed, when he offered up Isaac, being tested of God, in the contyext of the passage, this is what evidenced his faith in God, and show forth a tangible work, for men to see, and admire.

At Hebrews 11:11 and 17, scripture tells us, he obeyed, and this is the key today, to coming to God.

At Gen 15:6, the scripture says Abram "And he believed in the LORD;and He counted it to him for righteousness."

At Gen 17:1-22, God again, appears to Abram, establishes His covenant with him, and renames him to Abraham (father of a mulitude), giving him the sign of circumscision.

This was a conditional covenant based on Abrahams obedience, and when God tested him, at Gen 22:16-17, He (God, swore the oath), found in Heb 6:14  " Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee."
Sealing the conditional covenant into an unconditional covenant.

This was not based on Abrahams, physical motions of climbing the mountain to sacrifice Isaac, but in his faith in God;

Note Heb 11:17-19;    again;


By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

This why, Paul at Rom 4 states;

1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Pretty simple and straighforward..


Blessings,

Petro

 

[quote posted by pnotc,
And no, I didn’t join the service for the benefits.  You actually don’t get too much in the Reserves.  And no, I’m not “running for my life,” – I’m following my conscience.  I’m in intel, not a grunt – the likelihood of my actually seeing combat are slim to none.  The likelihood of the analysis I provide leading to someone’s death is actually quite high in a war-time situation, and that is not something I could do with a clear conscience.  

You have no credilbility in my book, according to the story, you have been a christian for many years,

You said;

"The likelihood of the analysis I provide leading to someone’s death is actually quite high in a war-time situation, and that is not something I could do with a clear conscience."

That likelihood, has always been there, what did you think, soldeirs train for, when you joined??

You got a lot of revelation, when you went from a calvinist to one who prays to dead saints,   wow..

So, what you never objected to while believing in eternal security, now you conscienciouly object to, without so much as giving the commandment and second thought..

That is a good one...


Petro

It is useless, you simply can't see it, therefore, you can't understand it.

Esau, was rejected by God, way before, He sold his birthright, and the scriptures reveal to us, that God hated Esau, but loved Jacob, before either of them were born or had done right or wrong.

All, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

And God said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

All that is left now, is for you to call God, unrighteous..

I encourage you to keep seeking his face, and pray that you may find the grace which is necessary to come to God who gives men faith.

But, I would derelict not to warn you, there is a point, where God Spirit will no longer strive, with them that oppose the teaching of the Spirit, and idolatry is not a sin, to take lightly, and there is no turning back, once a man, knows the way, if he should take to turning from it.

God Bless,

Petro

[repentance]

This AM, As I read scripture and prayed, I came across this verse I am sharing here, with you.  

2 Cor 7
9  Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


Consider Esau, a fornicator and profane man, who had an inheritance, that he despised, because he trusted in himself.

The scriptures say about him, that he;

..........afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. (Heb 12:17)

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


As a servant of God, it isn't easy dealing with people who consider themselves wise in wisdom and understanding,of the things of God, and I confess, I haven't been altogether patient and gentle with some of you, but it is because you drive us to scorn, thru your childish, arguments, wanting to re lay the foundation to repentance by faith in dead works.

Petro

[yes]

OK Petro, I'm ging to ask a straightforward question now which requires nothing more than a simple answer.

Wjhen God commands us to repent, do we have a choice whether we repent or not?

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth now. One minute you say we have no choice that we can only do it if God "grants" it to us. The next you say God doesn't make us do it. I want a straight answer. Do I have a choice whether to obey God's command or not?

SonofAslan,

To your question

Do I have a choice whether to obey Gods command or not?

The answer you want is a big yes, unfortunately,

however,

Gods word says you would never choose to, because you can't.

Now let me share what the Bible says;

In and of yourself, you would never  choose, to repent because of three reasons;

1.  You would never want to. (Rom 3:11-12), because, you are lumped in with the rest of us.

Was it you that said, the book of Romans and some other book are the most misintrepreted, I can see why, you despise it.

2.  You were spiritually dead in sin and tresspasses, helpless to do anything about your sinfull condition; spiritually dead; (Eph 2:1)    

One, only speaks out of both sides of his mouth if his tongue is cloven. And they that deny the Word of God, may have such a tongue...

Do you deny these first two points??


3.  Spiritually dead, unable to know, hear and receive God's word.  Remember (1 Cor 2:14)

Do you deny this point as well??


And above all else, You could never repent, because you loved darkness rather than light, because your deeds (works) were evil, and everyone that works evil, hates the light, neither comes to the light, that his deeds might be reproved. (Jhn 3:19-21)

I bet you disagree with this point also,

So now, tell me, how was it you came to repentance, anyhow................on your own??  

Without God's, divine intervention in your life, you could never do anything,  

Would you disagree with this point also??

But God enabled you, to repent, when He revealed to you, what a great sinner you were, and that He loved you enough to die in the place of yourself for your sins, it was His goodness which led you to the truth of this matter and enabled you to repent.

Rom 2
2:1  Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2  But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3  And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Lets pull this verse 4, out here into the open.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Do you deny the goodness of God led you and enabled you to repent??

Can you give an answer, from your vantage point, which will not deny these points.

If you can, please do....

And please, don't tell me I have the choice to obey it, but I don't have the choice to disobey it. That is meaningless.

I won't...

Everyone is saved the same way, would you deny this is true..

If you were granted the gift differently, please tell us about it..


You need to confess..O man.... you are wrong, and He is true and right.


Blessings,

Petro

P.S. I won't be able to teach you further on this matter, until I return, after July 4, have a nice one.
How about you??

Our view is illogical, yet you continue to say that God commands all men to repent, and then prevents some of them from doing so.

So God prevents people from doing that which He commands they do?


In case you don't like the God "prevents"  them angle,m i'll explain it anotehr way.

You sayd God commands all men to repent. But they can only repent if He makes them repent (after all, they have no choice in the matter).

The word is "grants" not "makes", quite a difference.

There is a reason, why he does not grant repentance, I know this is tough on you, but you make it tough on yourself, when you don't submit yourself to Gods Word.

This is why you cannot understand, I am am wondering by now if you can hear??

So God commands them to do something they can only do if He allows them,

I guess it has something to do with, the way they see, them selves, Gods commands all men everywhere to repent, but if some aks themselves;

"repent from what"?,

which is kind of like the questions you and pnotch, have been asking.

I ask that individual, doesn't see himself as a sinner, that bad off,m where he needs to repent, kind of like the Pharisee and the Publican at Lk 18:11-14.

This man simply justifies himself, should God, grant such a man repentace??    Maybe you can guess again...


I tell you in that it wil be; a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



Blessings,

Petro



  and yet He refuses to allow them to repent. Thus, in your view, God commands all men to do something  which He refuses to allow them to do. And we're illogical? And we contradict Scripture?

Sovereignty is not an issue, as I explained previously.

[He is SOVEREIGN]

Cont'd.....................

COMMANDS

all men to repent, why don't they? How are they able to resist it and not repent?

It is given to some while not others, He is SOVEREIGN, You must frist accept this premise, instead of letting rub you the wrong way, this really is the issue, which prevents you from seeing or understanding these things.

Because He who knows the hearts of all men, sees, something, which cause Him, not to grant repentance,  putting  it the way scripture tells us it is;

We have already gone over this in another thread;

Rom 9
13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

And to your question; Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? vs 19

You need to read the rest of the Chapter.

I have already gone around circles with you on this.

"This is a mystery.. I don't question his motives, the same Word which speaks to all, speaks to me, what is plain is that the Word says; "It is He who grants repentance""

It is only a mystery because your theology does violence to the passage, as it does many others. Lets re-examine the command verse above briefly. You are left with only two reasonable options as to how men resist the command to repentance. The first, the view that I hold, and I believe SOA holds, is that man's will is enabled by grace to respond to the offer of salvation by faith. Man, in some manner, fashion or way, responds to the offer and he repents. The second is your view, which is that man is completely unable to respond, and that it is all on God's side to effect repentance, faith and salvation (in no particular order).

Hah..........So, just because you and SOA, hold to a certain view, this makes it the truth??  Thats a good one........I do enjoy a good chuckle here and there..

So, in your view, all men are commanded to repent by God, but prevented from doing so by God.

I never said all are preventede.  Your view is based on soemthing I never said at ALL.  

See what I am saying about you,                                      you simply want to be contentious for the sake of arguing.

Doesn't that really mean that not all men are commanded to repent?

Absolutely.

In all honesty, that verse only means that some are commanded to repent, and are forced to do so by God's irresistible grace.

Thats false..

 So God's word is a lie now?

According to you it is.

What about a house divided against itself? It seems like God is both working for and against salvation.

He is going to save His elect chosen, He is working to accomplish it, and will.

You do like to argue, you are  attributing words to me I never said; and you are being ridicules now, the verse reads:  

" commandeth all men every where to repent:",

for you to make such a statement and interpreting to mean soimething other than what it says, is to deny what the written word specifically states, no wonder you have such a hard time believing the Word of God.

Now, you will surely respond by saying that it is not up to you to question God's motives or actions. This is a straw-man argument, one intended to imply that I or SOA is doing just that. In fact, we are not. We are pointing out the logical failings of your arguments and theology. We are not questioning God, we are questioning you. I know I've written those exact words to you before, and I'm sure they'll fall on the same deaf ears this time, as well. So I have a challenge for you, if you're up to it. Respond to my post without referencing me a single time, beyond quoting what I said. Do not mention me, my beliefs, my actions or my postings from any other thread. Try to respond to mine and SOA's points based solely on our arguments. No taunts, no vague comments about questioning God or challenging his will. It'll be interesting to see if you are able to do so.

You sound like a frustrated  nut...wanting to argue what you really don't believe,  what you won't be satisifed until I  agree with you..??

Ssheeeeesh...............Whats wrong with you, anyhow..


Petro

[according to the good pleasure of his will,]

pnotc posted Reply #40,

pnotc,

posted by Petro
"Two reasons:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

This, doesn't actually answer SOA's question. His question was not "why did they preach?", but why are they telling people they should, if they have no choice in the matter? In your formulation, this makes no sense. There is no reason why anyone should repent, only that they will. To anyone not reading into the text, should is clearly an indication that repentance is conditional, that it is not forced. Otherwise, it would just be a command to repent. Those who were elected would do so and be saved, and those who weren't elected, would not and remain dead. [/quoted]


Lets look at SonofAslan's question, again;

posted by SonofAslan at reply #35


Petro,

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.


Why preach that people should repent if they have no choice?

I answered this, but I can, again, if you missed it, the answer is; "because God commands all  men everywhere to repent" Acts 17:30.

But the scripture has concluded that all are dead in sin, none can or will repent, and Jesus, says;

Men,  "loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Jhn 3:17-21), this a present day truth.

Speaking of Israel He says, "This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise." (Isa 43:21)

I know you will say well this speaking specifically of the Nation of Israel, ......... this is why, these things sound illogical to you.

But the fact is the NT, clears this up, to them that can see.

The apostle Paul tells us in Eph 1, That the God and Father of the Lord Jesus, has chosen some in Him, having predestinated them unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (This is speaking of these whom He has give to Jesus) but of course those that prevert the Gosple will change this to mean, men chose God, by emphasizing and teaching thi, over that it is God, that does the chosing.

I say this is not only not true, it is illogical, because those who are made to hear and believe, are them the have been given hearing, and have been chosen of God to receive what they could never hear nor receive, without His divine intervention. You don't believe this,  since by your way of thinking, men produce the faith of themselves and it must include good works or they don't, and the emphasis is on good works, oh... yes I have heard it already, you don't believe the works themselves save, you they are only a part of salvation; I say bunk...........

I suggest to you, that is illogocal according to the scriptures, because they teach it is by faith and not works.
 

"No one knows who they are, I dare to say, they don't even know, before they are saved. And certainbly the Evil One doesn't either, this is why, he will kill, anyone and everyone, he can, in hopes of snaring one of them."

You posted this somewhere else, also, I showed you how illogical it is. The elect are the elect are the elect. If an elect dies before being saved and then goes to hell,

You reason this because you do not believe God is Soveriegn.

To your human understanding this sounds reasonable, unfortunately the mysteries of the Kingdom are given to be understood to His elect, and we understand it perfectly, this is why we believe the scriptures.

But I can see you undertand, what Satan understands, he knows that their is a seed of heirs to the promises of God out there somewhere, and because God has a hedge around those who walk according to his will (that is those who are subject to the Spirit), there are some that do not, and these whose works are  wood, hay, stubble; and he (the evil one) percieves these, maybe be vulnerable, so if he can cause their death, then he will have frusterated the plan of God.  

But since Gods plan was formulated from the begining, and He is Sovereign, the onus is on Him, to bring His plan to fruitition. We are confident He will, just as He has promised.  

You don't, but it is no, secret why that is..ou only believe what appeals to you.

We don't know who the sheep or the goats are, some sheep look like goats, until the lords cleans them up, so this is why we preach the Gosple, (the unsearchable riches of Christ) to all creatures.

he was never elect, and God was therefore wrong about who the elect are.

This last statement of yours, really shows your unbelief;

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. (2 Tim 2:19)

And, if no one knows who they are, how do you know that I'm not, or that SOA is not?

Your own words give you away, I am not surprised you have to ask such a question.

You fall under one of two categories; The fact you insist you are one and cannot reconcile scripture., may  eliminate one, but they are;

1.  The unbeliever;  

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1 Pet 2:7-8)

2. The babe in Christ;

 "For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Heb 5:13-14)

I trust you fall under the latter category, which is better than the former. I say this , Because what you have revealed herein, sure makes one wonder.

But then again, FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)

The promises of God are to the seed of Abraham (not children of the flesh, but the children of ther promise), and only those with the faith of Abraham are counted for the seed (Rom (:

The angel who appeared to, and when speaking to Mary, said "and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Mat 1:21)

His people are   [color-Red]"All that the Father giveth me"[/color] according to Jesus. (Jhn 6:37)

And as I answered SOA, He chose to save those whom He saves by the foolishness of preaching. (1 Cor 1:21)

"Note, what He did in these cities; "mighty works", they, Chorazin and Bethsaida, didn't want neither desired, to repent, and furthermore, Jesus refers to Tyre and Sidom who had fallen under the judgement of God, because of wickedness and idolatry, stating that, had these"mighty works" (which He refers to) would have repented in sackcloth and ahes, long ago,"

Note the emphasis I put on your quote. You're violating your stated position. What does their will have to do with it? What do their wants or desires have to do with whether or not God chooses to save them? Not a darn thing! So why are you bringing it up?

"But these would not repent after seen this miracles, because of their "unbelief and hardness of heart" "

But per your theology, they are unbelieving and heard of heart because God made them that way. He could have given them the faith they needed to repent, but did not. Let me pose a question to you. I know you have kids. Would you upraid your 2 week old son for pooping on the floor, especially if you had told him before not to do it, and really, really didn't want him too?

Idolaters will never repent...since they think, they serve and worship the true God contrary and in the face of His known will.

"There is no choice to this matter, God commands it, period. "

Do you believe that the Word of God is effectual, and cannot be blocked by any human action or desire?

This is evident, the elect do not block Gods working in them, they welcome it and obtain the promise by faith, because of God's "effetcual" drawing/working in them.

"The natural man, reasons in himself; Whay do I need to repent?
I am not as bad as that man over there or this guy over here, this is the wisdom of the world, which is used to analyze, Gods will."

Perhaps it is, and perhaps it isn't. I think you should reacquaint yourself with Romans 7.

"This is a good verse; God,.........commandeth all men every where to repent:"

Then why don't they? Come on, if God, if the absolutely sovereign God of the universe

        Cont'd....

[the judge of all the earth.]

 posted by pnotc as reply #67

"You might try reading Ex 33, and while your are at it, pay particular attention to verse 11, you will even see Joshua, present, I say perhaps within ear shot, of God speaking to Moses."

Perhaps within ear shot of Moses, and perhaps not. Are you really stating that God has a face in this verse and that Moses saw it? And I'll direct your attention to verse 2:

And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite

Surely you see the relevance to our discussion…

So, are you saying this man was an angel?? And NOT the Angel of the Lord??

"So, I simply reject your presumption, that all Hebrews ever expected God to appear in the form of man."

Aside from the verse in Joshua which is under contention, show me the other times that God appeared to them, on earth, in human form. Exodus 33:11 says that Moses and God spoke face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. It is easy to assert that this is a figurative statement that demonstrates their spiritual closeness, or the love with God displayed for Moses. But I would love to see other times that God appeared to people, on earth, in human form.

"And then you have the Passage at Ex 18, where the Lord appeared to Abraham, and please don't tell me, Abraham, didn't know it was the Lord, look at verse 25, Abraham knew he was speaking to the "Judge of all thre earth.""

I meant Gen 18, God appeared to Abraham on the plains of Mamre; Abraham knew it was the Lord, the judge of all the earth. vs's  21-25.

I think you will regret bringing this chapter up. Kindly direct your attention to verse 7:

And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of [their] welfare; and they came into the tent.

Now, I know without saying you know exactly what word "obeisance" is translated from. Yup, "schachah." So, was Moses worshipping Jethro? Or might he have been honoring him with a great degree of respect? Hmmmmmmm… Oh, I think you have the wrong chapter. Exodus 18:25 has nothing to do with what you said.

Only you would believe Moses worshipped his father n law.

Notice worship is one of the meanings of the word "shachah" it probaly meant prosterated himself, not full blown worship.
I wouldn't press it to mean, what you by necessity,  need it to mean. And even it if meant Worship;

The law was given, at Ex 20, and where there is no law, there is no, trangression (Rom 4:15), I doubt Moses, ever worshipped his father n law as he did God. Prosterated himself before Jethro, perhaps, I don't worry about Moses, since the NT, gives a good testimony of Him.(Heb 3:5) he was faithfull to God.

"

We are miles apart, friend, you take liberties with scripture, I do not."

Yeah, right. Tell me, what does 2 Peter 3:9 mean? Does it actually mean that God is willing for no one, not one single person to perish, as the verse plainly states? Or does it mean something else? Something more in line with your Calvinist beliefs?

It means what it says.

"You were complaining in your last post, when I used the word angel, now you are using it. It wasn't an angel, it was a man, has been your premise from the begining, are you saying it is an angel now??"

My premise has been that it was an angel from the original post back on the Orthodoxy thread! Now I know you haven't understood any of my arguments. No wonder your arguments aren't making sense.

Well now.. perhaps Now,  you remember what you have been trying to prove from the begining that men worshipped angels.  So you can be justified in worshipping saints.. right.??.

"I never said anything that would contradict, what you stated, the Host in view here, is the Armies of Israel."


You stated it was the humans of Israel only.

You simply assumed,  I, was refering to the human army, ONLY which was present, I simply stated the Armies of Israel.  At this point and time, the generation which had finally died off, after 40 years of wondering was the one which God swore by his name they would not enter into the land because of unbelief. The nation which was about to enter in and possess the land, was not a cursed generation.

"Well, this is the point you brought up, to beef up the argument put forth up, that indeed men, in the OT, worshipped angels."

No. Others were using it to demonstrate the difference between veneration and worship, a distinction clearly beyond your understanding. You attempted to discount their argument by stating this angel was Jesus, when, in fact, it wasn't.

So you say.  What makes you think I should take your word for it, I have Gods word, and it speaks for itself, to me.
After all you are wrong in praying to dead saints, for intercession, contrary to the command, if your in error there, you are off here also.

"I answer what I decide to answer not, what I am compelled to for the sake of argument."

My points aren't there for the sake of argument. They are there because they show the holes in your argument. Come on, I dare you. Give 'em a try.

You dare me?,  aw.. come on.. no double are??

The holes you refer to, are between your ears, you simply want to be contentious.

"And by the way, I think it is a cop out, to declare yourself a consicienctious objecter while in the middle of your contract with the military, A man who volunteers to serve his country, ought to serve the time he agreed to, you could have changed your duties, perhaps to that of chaplains assistance.
--I served my country, as an infantryman in Vietnam, and willing would have given my all, for people like you, I suppose you your change of heart is do to your secular liberal studies, I'm telling you, Christians need to reject, liberal humanistic philosophies, they have a way of undermining the word of God in people."

How did I know you would not fail to comment on this! I wish I had put a bet on it. First, your psychic powers have failed you yet again. I'm not in the middle of my contract, I'm at the end of it. And I've already served the time I agreed to.

Friend, I served in SI at the division level, Intelligence falls under S2, S3 Operations, and so, on, you can deceive, some people some of the time, but you can't deceive all of the people all of the time, if you were at the end of your contract, there is not need to submit, Conscientious Objector Status application, part of your previous agreement would authorize the government to extend your contract for a specific period of time, if their is a national interest to do so,  if you hold such an important position, which requires your services, you have an obligation to serve your country in its time of need.

God today, seeks faithful men, faithfulness begins by honest men keeping commitments they make, to honor their word;  and,

to use, service to God as an excuse to bail out, after having taken advantage of all the country gave you, does not honor God.  

Of course this is my humble opinion, as I am from the Old School, where a man's word defined who he is.  

You sound as if you don't see things this way, are new from the new school??

And furthermore, it isn't as if,  you came to know God recently and came to the realization your are supposed to be agai because now you are a chirstian isn' supposed to be involved in violence (as SOA, says)  the nation didn't become godless after you the joined the service to obtain benefits; by your own testimony, you are a practically a man of the cloth, the godlessness of the nation should not be a surprise you, causing you to run for your life this late in the game.

Blessings,  

Petro